S01.E01: First, the Weather Changed

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

If the freeloaders don't like the conditions, they're always free to open a door and jump off. It's ridiculous to think a bunch of trespassers (which is exactly what the Tailies are) have a right to "demand" anything.

Actually the 1%-ers whose occupations seem to be basically ‘Being Rich’ are the freeloaders who wrecked the Earth so badly it became uninhabitable. That train was built from the wealth they exploited from everyone else. Sadly for them the people they left behind weren’t willing to just roll over and die for their convenience.

You don’t get to set people’s homes on fire then cry foul when they want to join you on your life boat.

Just hazarding but I’m guessing that by season’s end, the ‘ticket carrying’ passengers will soon be facing bigger problems than body shaming European nudists.

 

”Let them eat cake?” yeah, that attitude worked out well for ol’ Marie.

Edited May 21, 2020 by ursula

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

If the freeloaders don't like the conditions, they're always free to open a door and jump off. It's ridiculous to think a bunch of trespassers (which is exactly what the Tailies are) have a right to "demand" anything.

The punishment for trespassing should be death??

If the company was smart, they'd look at the Tailies as resources.

[UNOSEZ]

6 minutes ago, Trini said:

The punishment for trespassing should be death??

If the company was smart, they'd look at the Tailies as resources.

That's why I'm tryna withold judgment for a bit.. becuz I'm having a real hard time figuring out why they let the tailies live like that... I mean they have room for young adult orgy parties.. But geriatrics and kids are stuffed up with each other.. It just doesn't seem sustainable... As cold as it sounds you prob would be better off just killing them.. 

[Zanne]

12 hours ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

I liked the first episode. However: I have a major problem with the viewpoint of the show. The Tailies are stowaways. None of them bought a ticket. They FORCED their way onto a train they had no business being on, and now have the nerve to complain they're not being treated well? They should count their blessings that they weren't all thrown off years ago, yet the show wants us to root for their revolt so they can reach the engine and... and... and... uh... what exactly would be the point of reaching the engine, anyway?

To get equal treatment or, at the very least, basic human rights.

3 hours ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

If the freeloaders don't like the conditions, they're always free to open a door and jump off. It's ridiculous to think a bunch of trespassers (which is exactly what the Tailies are) have a right to "demand" anything.

This is a case of eugenics via bank account, or lack thereof. Anyone not on the train is dead and only the extremely rich could afford a ticket. It's in the negative hundreds of degrees outside. So, for you, it's suicide or enforced squalor.

Spoiler

Do you know how those arms were "taken" as punishment for the first rebellion? The guards force the person's arm out of a hole in the side of the train and it freezes immediately, and then is shattered.

The people in the tail are not useless, as it turns out. Those in charge made some mistakes in their planning. The needed a piano tuner, didn't have one, but the tail did. They needed some extra workers, and no one in first class is going to demote themselves to a job in sanitation or serving booze in the club car, so they go to the tailies. They needed a detective, so where do they go? The tail. People are never useless (though I'd make a case that a majority of the first class group wouldn't be able to figure out how to run and/or fix the train should enough of the cabin crew die off for some reason an they don't seem willing to give up anything to keep it going). The people in the tail have skills the front cabins might need - they're teachers, doctors, electricians, etc. People who might not have had a billion dollars in their bank accounts, but certainly are useful in keeping a society running.

Not to mention that they're human beings. They aren't "less than" because they didn't have a billion dollars to spare.

Spoiler

They deserve more than a diet of gelatinized cockroaches.

Yes, the pink bits are spoilers from the movie.

 

[Trini]

Also, it's hard to believe that they thought of everything, but not how to deal with stowaways.

[blackwing]

5 hours ago, ursula said:

The tickets weren’t available for just anyone to buy, but circulated only amongst the 1%-ers i.e. the same people who were responsible for destroying the Earth in the first place. They essentially wrecked the world, then hopped upon their golden parachute train and left everyone else to die.

Was this explained in the show, or are you getting this from other sources like the book or movie?  They may have explained it in the intro but I didn't catch it.  It was explained that there are 3,000 people on the train.  I'm not sure how many of those 3,000 are the tailers, but let's just say 100.  So 2,900 people constitutes the 1%-ers in your mind?  If they are all 1%-ers, then how come there is a third class?  Are you suggesting that the people in Third Class are still richer than 99% of the world?  Because it seems like their conditions are way less comfortable than First Class.  So the people in Third Class who were still very rich by the general standard are now content to dine on noodles and live in spartan conditions?

 

50 minutes ago, Zanne said:

The people in the tail are not useless, as it turns out. Those in charge made some mistakes in their planning. The needed a piano tuner, didn't have one, but the tail did. They needed some extra workers, and no one in first class is going to demote themselves to a job in sanitation or serving booze in the club car, so they go to the tailies. They needed a detective, so where do they go? The tail. People are never useless (though I'd make a case that a majority of the first class group wouldn't be able to figure out how to run and/or fix the train should enough of the cabin crew die off for some reason an they don't seem willing to give up anything to keep it going). The people in the tail have skills the front cabins might need - they're teachers, doctors, electricians, etc. People who might not have had a billion dollars in their bank accounts, but certainly are useful in keeping a society running.

Not to mention that they're human beings. They aren't "less than" because they didn't have a billion dollars to spare.

 

I would agree with you that people are not useless.  Most people have skills that they are willing to use.  But your argument that the Tailies are filling the garbage collection and bartender jobs that the First Class people don't want sounds an awful lot like the same argument supporting illegal immigration.  That illegal immigrants are doing the lawn mowing, maid, farm worker, garbage collector type jobs that "rich people" don't want to do.

That might be all fine here in the real world and I agree that there is value in everybody, but looking at things from the show perspective, the disconnect to me is that in the real world, the illegal immigrant who takes the landscaping job that nobody wants is doing it just to survive and make a good life for himself and his family.  He certainly doesn't expect to live like JB Pritzker, the billionaire governor of Illinois, and dine on caviar and champagne on a daily basis at his $10 million horse farm in Wisconsin or his beachfront mansion in Florida.  The illegal immigrant who might be cutting your lawn doesn't think that he has a right to live like a king.

On this show, the Tailies seem to want to completely upend the whole society.  They want to riot and make everyone equal and they want to make their way all the way to the engine so they can stop the train.  They seem to be expecting equal rights and equal treatment.  Yes, Layton wanted an upgrade to Third Class.  But he was worried that the Tailies would think he was selling out and settling, because their goal is to make everyone equal.  And they clearly demonstrated that they are willing to kill for it.  I don't agree with that at all.

I get that there are political elements to this show, and that it is hard to talk about the show without some discussion of political views and elements, but I hope everybody can be respectful of each other's views.  If this forum is going to get overpolitical then I think I'm probably going to unfollow this show here on this board and just watch the show.  As I mentioned, I am here for entertainment.  It seems like the show is already heavy handed enough.

[formerlyfreedom]

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[ctlady]

Hub and I just watched the premiere last night.  I watched parts of the movie, so I don't know the entire story so lots of questions still to be answered - especially about the logistics of the train, why it can never stop, etc.

I was wondering how much time passed after the old man pulled the charging cord out of the phone and the music stopped and when the the rest of the tailies found him hanging.  It didn't seem like they gave him a full hour of alone time as they seemed to go looking for him as soon as they heard the piano music stop.  That didn't seem like enough time for an old, one-armed man to fashion a noose out of the cord and hang himself

[Netfoot]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

The punishment for trespassing should be death??

No. Ejection is sufficient.

But of course, under the circumstances ejection is tantamount to slaughter. So, despite being in a position where they would normally be ejected, they have been allowed to stay.

Scenario: I'm having a party in my garden to celebrate Christmas, and my friends are all invited. Suddenly, an unexpected downpour causes a number of passers-by to seek shelter under the marquee. Not being a complete dick, I allow them to stay. That does not mean they are entitled to sit in the chairs reserved for my guests, eat up the Christmas feast, drink my booze, or help themselves to the presents under my tree.  If I give them a beer and a sandwich, they should consider themselves lucky I am so generous. Because, if they start with the "inequity" bullshit, I just might throw them back out into the rain!

 

 

 

[UNOSEZ]

41 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

I give them a beer and a sandwich, they should consider themselves lucky I am so generous

I generally agree with this.. But I don't think it fully relates to the show... The treatment of the tailies isn't.. "A beer and a sandwich" its the crust and backwash.. Furthermore to use the storm analogy they are asked to take the crust and backwash.. Huddle under an insufficient umbrella and not because you don't have other spaces for them.. Or other food simply because you can and still you expect them to thank you for your largess and if they were to leave the little insufficient area you've given them its severe punishment or deal with the real bad weather 

[Netfoot]

16 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

The treatment of the tailies isn't.. "A beer and a sandwich" its the crust and backwash.

But I would have been perfectly within my rights to give them nothing at all. The "crust and backwash" is more than they have any right to expect. Equally, an "insufficient umbrella." They have no right to claim that because I have more comfortable spaces or better food available to be enjoyed by my invited guests, that they, the interlopers, should get an equal share. Or any share at all.

Now, in the context of this show, we must assume that no supplies or materiel are available from outside the environment of the train. Nor will there be, in the future. So yes, it would make more sense to me, to treat everything on the train, every empty tin can, every piece of string, every bottle-cap, and the Tailies themselves, as a non-renewable resource. And I would think that we could manage with slightly less smoked salmon and caviar at the front, in order to provide something better than homogeneous ick-bars at the rear. But I don't think the Tailies have any right to demand this, because they have no right to it. Any more than the passers-by have any right to my champagne or my Rolex at my Christmas party.

[UNOSEZ]

14 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

But I would have been perfectly within my rights to give them nothing at all. The "crust and backwash" is more than they have any right to expect. Equally, an "insufficient umbrella.

True they have no rights.. And in the show we don't know the history of the six years that transpired.. But why keep them alive.. In the storm scenario its forcing them under the crappy umbrella and giving them crust and backwash  while my pets lounge in space under a luxurious canopy and eat steak... But I also won't  let them leave my premises... Its all very odd.. Maybe we get clarification on the reasons.. I hope its something more compelling than... " because we can "

[blackwing]

8 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

True they have no rights.. And in the show we don't know the history of the six years that transpired.. But why keep them alive.. In the storm scenario its forcing them under the crappy umbrella and giving them crust and backwash  while my pets lounge in space under a luxurious canopy and eat steak... But I also won't  let them leave my premises... Its all very odd.. Maybe we get clarification on the reasons.. I hope its something more compelling than... " because we can "

(emphasis added)

I think that's the crux of the issue on the show... the Company views these people as unwanted.  The Company never asked to take on the responsibility of these 100 or so mouths to feed, but the people forced themselves onto the train anyways.  They don't want to just kill them but they also don't want to be made to feel guilty about the situation in the first place.  These interlopers are basically refugees who are on welfare.

From the Tailee perspective, they think their human rights are being violated.  They are people too, and it's so unfair that the rich people have so much when they have so little.

I don't think it's as cut and dried as rich vs poor... we already saw that various people in the Company have different feelings and views.  Jennifer Connelly seemed like she was willing to make a reasonable bargain to work with Layton.  Whereas the nasty security guy seemed more inclined to treat Layton as something like an indentured servant.  Layton himself wants a reasonable and equitable price for his services... he just wants his family moved to third class.  While a seemingly good majority of the others seem like they think it's their right to demand equal treatment for everybody on the train.

And yes, I think that if the Tailees are willing to work and perform services for the Company, then they should get an equitable reward.  I think the key word is equitable.  For Layton, being the only homicide detective onboard, and solving a crime that nobody else has been able to solve, I do think movement to Third Class seems fair.  But for someone like a sanitation worker who is cleaning the toilets?  I would think they should expect food.  But certainly not necessarily the ability to live amongst the First Class, which is what some of them seem to think.

In my example, that would be like if the guy who mows Governor Pritzker's lawn decides it's not enough to get paid, that he also believes he should be treated like one of the family members, and get to live in the big house and eat the fancy food.  Or in Netfoot's example, where the people he allowed to stand under his tent to get out of the rain decided that it wasn't fair that his guests got to eat good food and drink good booze, and just started protesting, and killing the guests in the name of equality.

 

[ursula]

On 5/20/2020 at 11:24 PM, blackwing said:

Was this explained in the show

The intro explicitly states this. Just as the Pilot makes it clear that the Third Class aren’t paying passengers but train staff and slaves staff of the actual client passengers. It’s also where tailies like Layton’s ex who’ve whored themselves out sufficiently  to the right people can aspire to.

On 5/20/2020 at 11:24 PM, blackwing said:

So 2,900 people constitutes the 1%-ers in your mind? 

No, 2,900 of 7 billion people is 1% of 1% of 1% of 1%. That’s not an opinion, that’s maths.

On 5/20/2020 at 11:24 PM, blackwing said:

they want to make their way all the way to the engine so they can stop the train. 

Which would be a suicide mission. The Tailies want to hold the engine hostage so they can take control of the train and get rights by force.

16 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Scenario: I'm having a party in my garden to celebrate Christmas, and my friends are all invited. Suddenly, an unexpected downpour causes a number of passers-by to seek shelter under the marquee.

There is actually a literary definition of this kind of argument —— it’s called the Danger of a Single Story. A story that starts halfway through a scenario, leaving out critical information of how that scenario was created and therefore presenting an incomplete and ultimately dishonest premise. Your Christmas garden story omits the fact that you and your guests caused the downpour in the first place.

Hypothetical you has spun what should be your moral obligation to all the people you inconvenienced into charity that they were ‘privileged’ to receive.

14 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

But I also won't  let them leave my premises... Its all very odd..

Because slaves - human beings with no rights - can always be useful. Layton’s wife found a way to be ‘useful’ and it’s implied that there’ve been others who’ve ‘worked’ their way up. Heck, the hostility of the 3rd class/hospitality staff is based on the very real resentment/fear that they are just one step removed from the Tailies. Here by the grace of God, go I. That ex football player and ex cop resented Layton because they took his refusal to be bribed into an upgrade as an insult to them. A classic “what the F are you so proud about? you think you’re better than us (and watch us demonstrate by beating you how much we suspect that’s true)”.

Edited May 21, 2020 by ursula

[Netfoot]

3 minutes ago, ursula said:

Your Christmas garden story omits the fact that you and your guests caused the downpour in the first place.

I deny the truth of this. You suggest that "I and my guests" were the cause of the global freeze.

What, the remainder of the planet didn't drive cars thereby polluting the atmosphere and depleting  all sources of hydrocarbons? The po' li'l Tailies never dumped garbage at the side of the road or poured used engine oil down the drain? Was it the 1% whose slash-and-burn agriculture cut down the Amazon rain forest? Did they use dynamite to simultaneously catch fish and destroy their habitat?

Nah. My party guests are NOT responsible for the rain storm. Certainly no more so than the passers-by who got caught up in the unexpected downpour. All they are guilty of is having the foresight to erect a marquee.

 

[Ziggy]

On 5/20/2020 at 9:06 AM, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

I liked the first episode. However: I have a major problem with the viewpoint of the show. The Tailies are stowaways. None of them bought a ticket. They FORCED their way onto a train they had no business being on, and now have the nerve to complain they're not being treated well? They should count their blessings that they weren't all thrown off years ago, yet the show wants us to root for their revolt so they can reach the engine and... and... and... uh... what exactly would be the point of reaching the engine, anyway?

I think you bring up a very important point about society in general.  We don't know exactly why the individuals in the tail didn't buy a ticket.  Did they not have the money?  Did they not act soon enough?  We they perfectly capable of buying a ticket and simply chose not to?

That's what many people ask about individuals who stand on street corners, holding signs and begging for money.  Did something terrible happen in their lives to bring them to this point of desperation?  Did they have no friends or family who could help them?  Are they just lazy and don't want to get a job?

I don't always know the reasons behind someone who goes to a food pantry or soup kitchen to eat, but I do know that I am so grateful that I've never had to do that.  I can't imagine how degrading it must be.  I don't know what it's like to have to buy all my clothes at goodwill (even underwear?).  Is it possible that some people do those things just so they don't have to fork over much money?  Sure.  But how sad would it be if you lived your whole life just trying to figure out how to get cheep clothes and cheep food and could never order a lobster just to celebrate?

You don't always know why people are in the situation they are in, but they are still people.  They are still human.  No one deserves the treatment that was described in this episode.  And why not even give them an opportunity to work on the train and contribute to society?  The motivation for that decision has not been given.  Seriously, they could even just wash dishes or scrub toilets, and they be doing work that most of us never want to do.  But it would be work that needs to be done.

[Ziggy]

4 hours ago, Netfoot said:

No. Ejection is sufficient.

But of course, under the circumstances ejection is tantamount to slaughter. So, despite being in a position where they would normally be ejected, they have been allowed to stay.

Scenario: I'm having a party in my garden to celebrate Christmas, and my friends are all invited. Suddenly, an unexpected downpour causes a number of passers-by to seek shelter under the marquee. Not being a complete dick, I allow them to stay. That does not mean they are entitled to sit in the chairs reserved for my guests, eat up the Christmas feast, drink my booze, or help themselves to the presents under my tree.  If I give them a beer and a sandwich, they should consider themselves lucky I am so generous. Because, if they start with the "inequity" bullshit, I just might throw them back out into the rain!

Sure, but if the storm turned into a tornado followed by a flood and there was no where to go, might you offer food the next day, especially if they offered to help clean up your yard and possibly repair the roof?

[Netfoot]

2 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

Sure, but if the storm turned into a tornado followed by a flood and there was no where to go, might you offer food the next day, especially if they offered to help clean up your yard and possibly repair the roof?

Of course, because I am not a dick. But there is nothing that says I have to. And nothing that says they get to vote on who sleeps in the master bedroom, and who chooses the channel on TV after eating my dinner.

Anyway, as been mentioned above, the tone of the thread has changed, and since I don't want to get bogged down in a heated discussion over the moral and ethical values of the matter, I will make this my last post on this subject.

[Ziggy]

13 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

Of course, because I am not a dick.

Didn't mean to imply that you were.  I was simply saying that not everyone caught in a bad situation is looking strictly for a handout.

[CeeBeeGee]

19 hours ago, ursula said:

The tickets weren’t available for just anyone to buy, but circulated only amongst the 1%-ers i.e. the same people who were responsible for destroying the Earth in the first place. They essentially wrecked the world, then hopped upon their golden parachute train and left everyone else to die.
 

Furthermore, there will probably be enough to go around if the rich weren’t living in such filthy decadence. Their kids are so bored of their cushioned lives that they’re literally bringing back ‘squalor chick’. They have empty cabins to turn into orgy playgrounds when the stowaways are stacked like sardines. 

Who cares if children are being starved and people are being driven to suicide? What matters is that the seat-paying passengers shouldn’t have to settle for anything less than absolute comfort. Human life and dignity is irrelevant to the Almighty Dollar. 

Arguing that the rich passengers are the “real victims” and the stowaways are “entitled snowflakes” who aren’t grateful that they weren’t just murdered for breaking the sacred laws of capitalism is so ironic, it’s ridiculous. 

 

14 hours ago, Trini said:

The punishment for trespassing should be death??

If the company was smart, they'd look at the Tailies as resources.

YES. This. There are fewer than 3,000 people left in the entire world and people are arguing they should be tossed out? Seriously? The survival of the species is at stake. Every one of those unwanted Tailies is an opportunity to improve the situation--to design more and better cars (is there a factory car?), to figure out a way to mitigate the climate (is there a science/research car?). Every one of those Tailies is a human being with potential to help solve the dire situation all of them are in.

Capitalism is immaterial here, whether or not the passengers and staff believe it is. What is relevant is the question what must every passenger on that train do to help advance the species, to help protect all of them so they can procreate and build up the species. The idea that the Tailies are prohibited from procreation? Staggeringly stupid. Human rights are rights, not a commodity for sale, and the first right of every human being is the right to try to survive. The idea that some people were wooed by caviar and saunas into purchasing a ticket for their very survival--and that those amenities thereby reduced room for greater numbers of human beings* (which would mean a likelier chance that the species would survive)--is...improbable but I guess that's the premise I have to accept--that Mr. Wilfred was either a sociopath or someone who knows nothing about functional extinction. I have to wonder if the show will ever explore the literal existential crisis of the premise.

*Yes, yes, I'm aware that Wilfred couldn't let everyone on the train, that there had to be some kind of way of winnowing them out.

[JasonCC]

Quote

 

The tickets weren’t available for just anyone to buy, but circulated only amongst the 1%-ers i.e. the same people who were responsible for destroying the Earth in the first place. They essentially wrecked the world, then hopped upon their golden parachute train and left everyone else to die.
 

Furthermore, there will probably be enough to go around if the rich weren’t living in such filthy decadence. Their kids are so bored of their cushioned lives that they’re literally bringing back ‘squalor chick’. They have empty cabins to turn into orgy playgrounds when the stowaways are stacked like sardines. 

 

 

You know, if the Snowpiercer itslef was an actual escape route to greener pastures? I'd view the Tailies more as stowaways who need to pay their way (either en route or once they arrive in the refuge).

However, it's the fact seven damn years has passed that changes it for me. They all now know--all classes--that they are what's left of humanity. Keeping a mindset of a cruise ship where some paid more than others is becoming less and less tenable, especially for the generation (all classes) who were underage when "the journey" started. As mentioned above, this decadent vision of society is already falling apart from within as the young people have no sense of purpose or goals and are just throwing sex parties where they slum it and pretend to be dirty plebs. 

2000-ish people is not a lot to rebuild humanity with. While not everyone is thinking clearly, I suspect part of the Tailies' motivation is that knowledge ("last Australian in the world"). If any chance to rebuild a society is there? Yes, they'll need all classes. Some might have to come down a notch from their cocktail and sauna on demand lifestyle--maybe it becomes everyone gets only one sauna hour a week, and alcohol is rationed--and others will indeed be elevated up from living on a protein bar per day and subhuman sanitation. 

I suspect the higher classes may also know 2000-ish is not a lot of rebuild humanity with too. They may allow the tailies to exist at mere subsistence levels in order to keep replacements for menial jobs (the show demonstrated that has happened on rare occasions already), but they would not be inclined to hit the restart button fully as it will mean losing their privilege. After seven years they probably (justifiably?) also think (pun intended) that train has left the station: "those savages in the tail section hate us so much they'd never compromise and live with us--they'd just slaughter us".

I think I'll be sticking with this one. Like others have said, a pilot can only do so much and (for now) I'm more here for the acting and world-building!

Edited May 21, 2020 by JasonCC

[Zanne]

26 minutes ago, JasonCC said:

2000-ish people is not a lot to rebuild humanity with. While not everyone is thinking clearly, I suspect part of the Tailies' motivation is that knowledge ("last Australian in the world"). If any chance to rebuild a society is there? ...

I suspect the higher classes may also know 2000-ish is not a lot of rebuild humanity with too...

 

I was looking into how many people would be genetically required to restart civilization and there were some wide ranging numbers. New Scientist suggested as low as 80 (?!) up to 160. An astrophysicist agreed with the lower number at 98. Biology and population analysis suggests 500. An anthropologist in 2014 arrived at the number 14,000. 

So with 3,000 on the train, if we go by the lower numbers then there's a bit of wiggle room, but if the larger number is necessary, then a few generations down the line they will be seeing the effects of their limited choices.

Any geneticists out there with more solid numbers?

 

[JasonCC]

Those numbers are fascinating Zanne!

I wonder if the show will ever reveal any statistics too....like how many passengers are of child-bearing capacity? I could see the society aging seven years in....

[JasonCC]

I can edit my post to talk about how pretty Jennifer Connelly's hair is and how I googled her age during the pilot episode! I look up everyone's age these days, though, so that's maybe not episode specific. 😉

[UNOSEZ]

9 minutes ago, JasonCC said:

I can edit my post to talk about how pretty Jennifer Connelly's hair is and how I googled her age during the pilot episode! I look up everyone's age these days, though, so that's maybe not episode specific. 😉

I went on a jog with my mom when I was about 10/11 and popped into a lil cafe in BK heights and Jen connelly gave me a cookie... I've been smitten since then.. So always down to wax poetic bout Ms.  Jen

But to the ongoing class discussion I feel we need more of the Tailies plan.. Or endgame... I get the righteous anger and believe that they have cause.. But I'm also not a huge fan of wonton destruction.. The aftermath of that mini-riot with pike lamenting about all that blood... That can't be the way either... I personally don't think that's their endgame but I would like it spelled out better... Also spelled out is the reasoning of the front line ppl for being as extravagant as they are.. Especially  damn near 7 years into all this.. The apparent lack of self-awareness is almost comical 

[AnimeMania]

If the train is a metaphor for Capitalism then I don't think we are supposed to focus on what will happen if/when they get off the train, just how they are supposed to get along/act while on the train.

If we did worry about repopulating the Earth, I think they should be collecting everybody's Sperm and Eggs, even if they are not allowing people to reproduce.

They had the discussion of how many people were required to carry on the species in the Salvation thread. I think the number was around 300.

[Dowel Jones]

One wonders why, if the Company's original plan was to include only well heeled and paying customers on this nonstop train, they needed to have so many heavily armored and armed security guards on board.

[alvajon]

I haven’t seen it mentioned, but then again I haven’t read all the prior posts (the long ones I skip), and I really don’t mean to be critical, but Jennifer Connelly looks anorexic.  Her hands look unusually large.  

[Ziggy]

On 5/17/2020 at 11:05 PM, Bulldog said:

Am I correct that she is Willford, and the other guy wasn't being sarcastic in calling her that? 

I was wondering the same thing.  Is she actually Willford?  Maybe she is has always introduced herself as his assistant (or whatever).  Would that somehow make her more credible?  Or perhaps the real Willford died years ago and, rather than dealing with whatever would come if people found out he died, she simply carried on as his "representative" with no one questioning since they never saw him in the first place

Very curious as to what this means.

[ursula]

4 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

Is she actually Willford?

I think that she is, essentially, in the sense that she's the one who built and maintains the train. I think that's the point of showing she's an MIT alumni, which is US shorthand for "brilliant", and not just someone who's hyper competent like, say, Pepper Potts. It's supposed to mean she played a significant part, if not the entire part in designing the magical train.

[iMonrey]

I'm late to this party but all this discussion about class warfare suggests the pilot episode made a mistake by portraying the tailies as illegal stowaways. The movie never specified how they got on the train or that they were "illegals," they were just the lowest class passengers. Also, they showed all these people rushing the train and a lot of them being thrown off, so why did the people in charge even allow a bunch of them to remain on the train in the first place? This doesn't really make a lot of sense.

These missteps add to the problem of taking this premise and turning it into a continuing TV series. I think it worked better as a one-off story.

I'd still be interested to know some of the mechanics of how this works. There are 1000 cars, I'm assuming each is 20-30 feet long? How long is the train overall? And is it circling the globe by longitude or latitude? I don't think there's enough continuous land to traverse the globe either way.

Quote

That didn't seem like enough time for an old, one-armed man to fashion a noose out of the cord and hang himself

No, and unless his neck was broken he wouldn't have been dead yet either.

[Netfoot]

29 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

There are 1000 cars, I'm assuming each is 20-30 feet long? How long is the train overall?

I have googled a bit. The maximum size of rolling stock is determined by the tightness of curves in the track, and obstacles (bridges, tunnels, etc) that must be negotiated. The largest carriages appear to be boxcars for freight, and they come in a variety of types. The biggest seems to be an "86' Auto", for carrying car parts, appliances, and other bulky goods.  They are 86'7" long, 9'6" wide and 13' high. If you were building specialized cars to carry aquariums, farms, etc, it would probably be wise not to exceed this general dimension if you wanted the carriage to run on standard rail lines. At this stage we don't know if the train runs on a standard gauge line or specially laid track.

The train consists of 1001 cars which would imply a length of 50,800'3" or 9.62 miles of train. But this does not include the space between individual carriages, because I don't have any figures for that distance.  I would guess a minimum of 5 feet? This would add another 5x1,000=5,000' or nearly another mile, to the overall length. So, well over 10 miles long.

And to my eye, the carriages on this train are much larger than normal, so...

48 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

And is it circling the globe by longitude or latitude?

Neither.  It isn't taking a Great Circle route. This map supposedly shows the route of the train:

As you can see the train reaches South America by traversing the Caribbean island chain, somehow, and returns North via the Isthmus of Panama. (Or is it the other way around?) It also crosses the Bering straits and a bight of the track even runs out over Japan and Korea.

Perhaps track was laid over ice, as the world slowly froze? The map also shows a track loop up into Greenland, and there is no land bridge to Greenland....

[ursula]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I'd still be interested to know some of the mechanics of how this works. There are 1000 cars, I'm assuming each is 20-30 feet long? How long is the train overall? And is it circling the globe by longitude or latitude? I don't think there's enough continuous land to traverse the globe either way.

If you watch the opening credits carefully, you'll see some blueprints and maps that give some of this information - including the track that the train uses to transverse the globe approximately 2ce a year.

@NetfootI think that route is movie-based. On the TV show, the train travels the Earth approximately 2ce a year. 

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

I think that route is movie-based.

My error -- I offer my apologies.

[Dowel Jones]

3 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Perhaps track was laid over ice, as the world slowly froze?

Which leads to another question.  Why would so much of the world's population agree to build a railroad for a relative few to avoid the coming global disaster?  It would have to become obvious as time wore on.

[AnimeMania]

33 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

Which leads to another question.  Why would so much of the world's population agree to build a railroad for a relative few to avoid the coming global disaster?  It would have to become obvious as time wore on.

In the other forms of media, they built the train first, then right as they finish it, the Ice Age happens. This might be a spoiler for the TV series. More information about the train in "Choo-Choo On This: The Science of Snowpiercer" thread.

[rmontro]

I'm not sure how long I'm going to be watching this.  I thought the premise looked interesting, so I watched the movie before watching the first episode.  It seemed to me that the movie had a bit more of a sense of humor, it was very quirky, whereas this show seems deadly serious.  And thus maybe a bit dull.  The talent in the cast is fantastic, though.

These people seem more obsessed with cutting arms off than the Star Wars franchise.

Edited May 24, 2020 by rmontro

[Ziggy]

16 hours ago, rmontro said:

These people seem more obsessed with cutting arms off than the Star Wars franchise.

At least in Star Wars your arm gets replaced by a robotic arm.

On 5/22/2020 at 12:48 PM, Netfoot said:

I have googled a bit. The maximum size of rolling stock is determined by the tightness of curves in the track, and obstacles (bridges, tunnels, etc) that must be negotiated. The largest carriages appear to be boxcars for freight, and they come in a variety of types. The biggest seems to be an "86' Auto", for carrying car parts, appliances, and other bulky goods.  They are 86'7" long, 9'6" wide and 13' high. If you were building specialized cars to carry aquariums, farms, etc, it would probably be wise not to exceed this general dimension if you wanted the carriage to run on standard rail lines. At this stage we don't know if the train runs on a standard gauge line or specially laid track.

The train consists of 1001 cars which would imply a length of 50,800'3" or 9.62 miles of train. But this does not include the space between individual carriages, because I don't have any figures for that distance.  I would guess a minimum of 5 feet? This would add another 5x1,000=5,000' or nearly another mile, to the overall length. So, well over 10 miles long.

And to my eye, the carriages on this train are much larger than normal, so...

Neither.  It isn't taking a Great Circle route. This map supposedly shows the route of the train:

As you can see the train reaches South America by traversing the Caribbean island chain, somehow, and returns North via the Isthmus of Panama. (Or is it the other way around?) It also crosses the Bering straits and a bight of the track even runs out over Japan and Korea.

Perhaps track was laid over ice, as the world slowly froze? The map also shows a track loop up into Greenland, and there is no land bridge to Greenland....

That's a great map!  I was very curious, since I did take it literally when I thought I heard them say "circumnavigate the earth."  (Was that in a trailer?)

Even if the map is for the movie and not the tv show, it's fascinating and brings the concept to life.

[Ohwell]

I finally watched the movie a few days ago, and I think I'll just be satisfied with that.  I think this series is just going to be too depressing, good acting notwithstanding. 

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I finally watched the movie a few days ago, and I think I'll just be satisfied with that.  I think this series is just going to be too depressing, good acting notwithstanding. 

I've got the DVR set for the second episode, but yeah this series seems just really dour.

Edited May 24, 2020 by rmontro

[Mr. Sparkle]

I'm going to watch this season, at least. Because there's not much else to do. It doesn't look like it's going to be a lot of "fun." 

[rmontro]

15 minutes ago, Superclam said:

I'm going to watch this season, at least. 

Anyone know how many episodes in this season?

I like Jennifer Connolly and the guy who played Thomas Jefferson in Hamilton (Daveed Diggs).  

That guy who played Negan's right hand man in the Saviors on Walking Dead, Simon Ogg - they said he was going to be put in the drawers - or did they decide to do something else with him?  Either way, does that mean he's off the show, either temporarily or permanently?

[Mr. Sparkle]

4 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Anyone know how many episodes in this season?

I like Jennifer Connolly and the guy who played Thomas Jefferson in Hamilton (Daveed Diggs).  

That guy who played Negan's right hand man in the Saviors on Walking Dead, Simon Ogg - they said he was going to be put in the drawers - or did they decide to do something else with him?  Either way, does that mean he's off the show, either temporarily or permanently?

10 episodes this season. 

Mild spoiler: 

Spoiler

Steven Ogg is listed as recurring this season, and full time next, so he should be back. 

 

[Netfoot]

58 minutes ago, rmontro said:

That guy who played Negan's right hand man in the Saviors on Walking Dead, Simon Ogg...

Steven Ogg plays the part of Simon.....