S05.E10: Something Unforgiveable

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, wendyg said:

I think the key to Kim is the desire for respect. It wasn't that Howard put her in doc review; it's that when she did the thing all law firms want their *partners* to do and landed a big client, she was ignored. "You don't save me. I save me." is what made the character for me - but Howard paid no attention. Then, after all the work for Mesa Verde, Kevin ignored her advice. Acker didn't respect her either - and that goaded her into trying to save his home - but he didn't *know* her. And then after everything else that's gone on, Howard patronizes her. I think she cared about becoming a good lawyer and carving out a place for herself in the corporate world because she thought the reward would be respect - and it wasn't. So, like Jimmy in season 4 (when he gave that lecture to the poor student who didn't get the grant), she's concluded that she will never win at their game. And if she can't, then screw them, let's take some of their resources and go help other  people who get no respect and deserve better.

BREAKING BAD always seemed to me a classic Greek tragedy: the hero is brought down by his own flaws - and brings disaster to everyone around him. BCS is following a similar trajectory.

I agree she wants respect, but that's only part of her motivation for her recent turn onto the bad choice road.  I believe she had healthy amounts of respect at Schweikert and could have continued to amass it there and in the Albuquerque legal community.  She was pretty much winning at the game.  I think she wants to punish people who get things the easy way, whereas she and Jimmy have had to work, fight, persevere against odds, etc.  She has an underlying ability to skirt the rules, and enjoy it.  She wants to use her powers for good, but is not averse to using them to wreck someone who did her wrong.  Apparently can hold a grudge.  Lalo better watch his ass if he comes back looking for Nacho, which I'm sure he will.

[Hanahope]

I’m sure Kim has some money saved from her Mesa Verde work, and Saul just made 100K.  And even if they get 2 mill from Sandpiper is that really enough to hire 2 well paid associates from top New Mexico law firms and work pro bono? For more than a few years?

 I’m sure Stef and Brian (or whoever because really do they want to do that sort of work?) want to get paid at least as much as they were earning before, maybe even more for giving up cushy office jobs for defending accused criminals who can’t pay.

Or does she think Saul’s position as friend of the cartel will keep paying big money?

sure sure cost of living in NM is less than say Los Angeles, but top firm associates are still probably paid 100k or more a year.

 

[PeterPirate]

I agree that with Kim it's a matter of respect.  She got sent to the Cornfield twice.  The second time was justified, but the first time was not. She worked out a great plea bargain deal for the Kettlemans and still got the short end.  

But I think with Kim it's also a matter of self-respect.  She's not going to be like her crappy, irresponsible, abusive mother.  She's going to work hard and make something of herself.   To take from Shakespeare again, Kim Wexler is an honorable person. 

When Kim's boyfriend says he manufactured evidence to help a client, Kim will tell him not to tell her about such things.  She cannot hear about such things, because Kim Wexler is an honorable person. 

When Kim's boyfriend is accused of altering documents to help her get a client, Kim will back up her boyfriend and say the accuser is crazy.  Later, she will slap her boyfriend a few times because she knows he did it.  But she will never openly admit that she is the beneficiary of malfeasance, and she will keep the client, because Kim Wexler is an honorable person.  

When Kim's boyfriend's accuser kills himself, she will start taking on pro bono cases.  Because Kim Wexler is an honorable person.  

When Kim's boyfriend-now-husband takes on a drug cartel as a client, Kim will quit her corporate gig in order to take on even more pro bono clients.  That will make up for the bad her man is doing.  It's what an honorable person does.  

It's all about Kim maintaining her own sense of self-worth.  

One more thing I will add is I don't think the word "hypocrite" applies to Kim.  A hypocrite is someone who outwardly presents they have higher moral values, but does not live according to those standards.  Kim has severe moral conflicts, but they are internal to her.  And they are driving her nuts.

Edited April 25, 2020 by PeterPirate

[ahmerali]

On 4/23/2020 at 1:56 PM, PeterPirate said:

Somehow, the Cousins are restrained from taking revenge on Nacho.  Lalo may tell them to leave Nacho alone so he can take revenge on his own.  Or maybe the cartel will keep them under wraps.  Or maybe, as button men, they aren't aware of who runs things north of the border and aren't aware of Nacho's existence or his part in the assault.  One way or another, the Cousins never learn Gus was behind the attack. 

La familia es toda. If the Cousins even caught a whiff of Nacho or Gus being involved, nothing would hold them back.

Your last statement is 100 percent correct. Clearly by BB they have no idea of Gus's involvement, which means that either Nacho takes the fall for this, or Nacho manages to get back to Gus who promptly sends him and his father to the Disappearer.

[Tatum]

Just watched the show and read through all the comments here. Nothing to add other than Kim is crazy if she thinks her cut of the Sandpiper payday would cover her pro bono firm for even one year. She may have plans to turn it into a nonprofit that gets donations but considering she's providing a charity for violent felons- I wouldn't expect to live off of that. Also, seems like she wants to pick and choose the cases she takes which kind of defeats her dream of fairness for all. If she really wants to make a difference in the world, she should focus her time and money on trying to intercept struggling people before they are forced to choose crime and violence as a means to survival.

 

Also, considering how strategic and long game thinking Gus and Mike are, sending what amounted to the Wet Bandits over to take out Lalo seemed extremely stupid, and not at all tactical. Also not sure why the fact that Lalo's murder was in Mexico and not Albuquerque means Gus couldn't have had anything to do with it- if anything I'd think on his home turf there would be less people to blame than in the U.S. where he annoyed a lot of people.

 

Lalo has grown on me the last few episodes of the season. I loved his drop from his general flirty, whimsical manner to seething rage when Kim visited him in prison and Lalo realized Saul talked about him. Also loved his playful "ish" to Kim regarding the urine drinking even as he is intensely interrogating Jimmy. I am actually not terribly disappointed he's alive but agree this means very bad things for Nacho. Although- I am not sure what Nacho was going to do even if junior varsity hit squad had succeeded- just walk to the border and hope for the best?

[Tatum]

On 4/20/2020 at 9:40 PM, tennisgurl said:

"I offered your husband a job and he threw bowling balls at my car, and asked hookers to embarrass me at a work lunch!"

Most People: "Thats extremely concerning and I think he needs therapy."

Kim: "Thats awesome and I think he needs to go even bigger!"

I did laugh out loud at one of their suggested pranks of sneaking into his house and replacing all his toilet paper with single ply. That's probably totally something he'd notice too.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Tatum

[Clanstarling]

10 minutes ago, Tatum said:

I did laugh out loud at one of their suggested pranks of sneaking into his house and replacing all his toilet paper with single ply. That's probably totally something he'd notice too.

Who wouldn't? Single ply is nasty, man. But yeah, it was a pretty funny idea.

[ruby24]

Ok, I just went back and looked, and apparently that sequence from Season 4 that forwards several months takes it to 2004, so this last season was either still 04 or early 05 at the earliest.

That still leaves a full three years before Breaking Bad starts, so that's a long time to cover in one more season, esp for a show that doesn't like for much time to pass in each season. Anything could happen, really.

[DangerousMinds]

53 minutes ago, Tatum said:

Just watched the show and read through all the comments here. Nothing to add other than Kim is crazy if she thinks her cut of the Sandpiper payday would cover her pro bono firm for even one year. She may have plans to turn it into a nonprofit that gets donations but considering she's providing a charity for violent felons- I wouldn't expect to live off of that. Also, seems like she wants to pick and choose the cases she takes which kind of defeats her dream of fairness for all. If she really wants to make a difference in the world, she should focus her time and money on trying to intercept struggling people before they are forced to choose crime and violence as a means to survival.

 

Also, considering how strategic and long game thinking Gus and Mike are, sending what amounted to the Wet Bandits over to take out Lalo seemed extremely stupid, and not at all tactical. Also not sure why the fact that Lalo's murder was in Mexico and not Albuquerque means Gus couldn't have had anything to do with it- if anything I'd think on his home turf there would be less people to blame than in the U.S. where he annoyed a lot of people.

 

Lalo has grown on me the last few episodes of the season. I loved his drop from his general flirty, whimsical manner to seething rage when Kim visited him in prison and Lalo realized Saul talked about him. Also loved his playful "ish" to Kim regarding the urine drinking even as he is intensely interrogating Jimmy. I am actually not terribly disappointed he's alive but agree this means very bad things for Nacho. Although- I am not sure what Nacho was going to do even if junior varsity hit squad had succeeded- just walk to the border and hope for the best?

Not everyone that needs a public defender is a “violent felon.”

[Tatum]

15 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Not everyone that needs a public defender is a “violent felon.”

They'll still exist in her client pool though, if she's truly providing to everyone.

[Gobi]

21 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Ok, I just went back and looked, and apparently that sequence from Season 4 that forwards several months takes it to 2004, so this last season was either still 04 or early 05 at the earliest.

That still leaves a full three years before Breaking Bad starts, so that's a long time to cover in one more season, esp for a show that doesn't like for much time to pass in each season. Anything could happen, really.

I expect a big time jump, either between seasons or, more likely, during next season.

[Milburn Stone]

I've been wondering what Don Eladio thinks of Lalo now. Nacho was the one who betrayed the family. But Lalo was the one who brought the traitor into Don Eladio's sanctuary. Vouched for him. Promoted him to Don Eladio as his successor. Allowed Don Eladio to be made a fool of by coming to trust Nacho himself. Caused it to happen that Don Eladio's staff got slaughtered. No one will think Lalo a traitor, but the quality of Lalo's judgment must now be an open question in Don Eladio's mind, to say the least! How can he be entrusted with any responsibility now?

Edited April 28, 2020 by Milburn Stone

[Clanstarling]

15 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Not everyone that needs a public defender is a “violent felon.”

Based on my experience on a grand jury - most of the defendants in the cases we heard were not violent at all, mostly people caught up in drug addiction. I came away from that experience with profound sadness for both the victims and the defendants.

[MrWhyt]

15 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Caused it to happen that Don Eladio's staff got slaughtered.

those were all Lalo's people, he was staying at his own place not the Don's.

[Tikichick]

19 hours ago, Tatum said:

They'll still exist in her client pool though, if she's truly providing to everyone.

She talked to the guy from the public defender's office about selecting her cases.  I think she plans to cherrypick what she wants to do as much as possible.

[Tatum]

26 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

She talked to the guy from the public defender's office about selecting her cases.  I think she plans to cherrypick what she wants to do as much as possible.

Right, but he specifically said she had to take felons. And she probably wants to anyways- that would be a lot more challenging than the easy plea cases that probably don't need her help as much.

 

This wasn't meant to be taken as a classist comment against those that need public defenders. I was commenting on the overall likelihood of her being able to fund her pro bono firm once the initial seed money is depleted, which would probably happen inside of a year.

[PeterPirate]

On 4/28/2020 at 4:11 PM, Milburn Stone said:

I've been wondering what Don Eladio thinks of Lalo now. Nacho was the one who betrayed the family. But Lalo was the one who brought the traitor into Don Eladio's sanctuary. Vouched for him. Promoted him to Don Eladio as his successor. Allowed Don Eladio to be made a fool of by coming to trust Nacho himself. Caused it to happen that Don Eladio's staff got slaughtered. No one will think Lalo a traitor, but the quality of Lalo's judgment must now be an open question in Don Eladio's mind, to say the least! How can he be entrusted with any responsibility now?

Regardless of whose staff got killed, I agree Lalo has lost a lot of status with the cartel, maybe all of it.  And the Salamancas will be hard pressed to find someone they can trust to run their operations in the US.  

Also, it occurs to me the Cousins did not have the wherewithal to find out who killed Tuco while they were in Mexico.  They had to travel north of the border and contact Gus to get that information.  So it's not unreasonable to think they won't find out about Nacho's participation in the hit.  I'm sure the Salamancas had any number of enemies south of the border.

[Ailianna]

On 4/21/2020 at 2:57 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

How long has Kim been out of law school?  Her attitude about doing pro bono work and helping the disadvantaged in criminal cases, really seems like something from a law student or recent graduate, not an experienced attorney.  The Public Defender guy carrying the armload of files gets it.  So, I'm still trying to buy that about her.  I actually think that she may like being around career criminals, but, not for the reason she states. lol 

The other thing that bothers me, when I choose to think of it, which I try not to, is that the skills of a transactions/regulations attorney and the skills of a criminal attorney (public defender or prosecutor) are VERY different.  The body of knowledge needed to succeed in either field is very specialized, and evolves with case work and decisions.  There's no way that being a rock start of mergers and acquisitions (and it's clear they've never been 00% clear on her speciality--banking and acquisitions? regulatory, financing, ??) prepares you for criminal work at all.  Civil lawyers always think they can do criminal law, because they had that one class their first year of law school, but the reality is that they suck at it.  If you don't do it, you can't just walk in and be the legal profession's gift to the underserved.

[scenario]

1 hour ago, Ailianna said:

The other thing that bothers me, when I choose to think of it, which I try not to, is that the skills of a transactions/regulations attorney and the skills of a criminal attorney (public defender or prosecutor) are VERY different.  The body of knowledge needed to succeed in either field is very specialized, and evolves with case work and decisions.  There's no way that being a rock start of mergers and acquisitions (and it's clear they've never been 00% clear on her speciality--banking and acquisitions? regulatory, financing, ??) prepares you for criminal work at all.  Civil lawyers always think they can do criminal law, because they had that one class their first year of law school, but the reality is that they suck at it.  If you don't do it, you can't just walk in and be the legal profession's gift to the underserved.

But Kim's been doing pro bono cases for years along with the corporate stuff. She's learned both types of law. Not easy but she is a workaholic. 

[PeterPirate]

Pretty good video that breaks down Lalo's personality defects.

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by PeterPirate

[Tikichick]

23 hours ago, Tatum said:

Right, but he specifically said she had to take felons. And she probably wants to anyways- that would be a lot more challenging than the easy plea cases that probably don't need her help as much.

 

This wasn't meant to be taken as a classist comment against those that need public defenders. I was commenting on the overall likelihood of her being able to fund her pro bono firm once the initial seed money is depleted, which would probably happen inside of a year.

Felony does not automatically equate to violence.  Violent crimes are typically felonies, but many non violent crimes are felonies as well.

[Tikichick]

15 hours ago, Ailianna said:

The other thing that bothers me, when I choose to think of it, which I try not to, is that the skills of a transactions/regulations attorney and the skills of a criminal attorney (public defender or prosecutor) are VERY different.  The body of knowledge needed to succeed in either field is very specialized, and evolves with case work and decisions.  There's no way that being a rock start of mergers and acquisitions (and it's clear they've never been 00% clear on her speciality--banking and acquisitions? regulatory, financing, ??) prepares you for criminal work at all.  Civil lawyers always think they can do criminal law, because they had that one class their first year of law school, but the reality is that they suck at it.  If you don't do it, you can't just walk in and be the legal profession's gift to the underserved.

Criminal law is probably one of the simpler disciplines in the legal field.  Many criminals who have never attended college, let alone law school, can do a pretty credible job arguing their cases, sometimes even writing decent briefs and motions.  

[Ailianna]

22 hours ago, Tikichick said:

Criminal law is probably one of the simpler disciplines in the legal field.  Many criminals who have never attended college, let alone law school, can do a pretty credible job arguing their cases, sometimes even writing decent briefs and motions.  

As someone who has been practicing criminal law exclusively for 17 years, I will agree to disagree.  Yes, a simple misdemeanor may be no biggie, when you take a plea and there's no real litigation.  Even jail house lawyers usually file motions that are pro forma, and regularly ask for things that are entirely irrelevant or nonsensical.  If you're in real trouble, you need someone who knows what they're doing, not a civil lawyer doing a favor for a friend of a friend, or someone who is so good at criminal law that they themselves are in jail or prison.  Yes, I've had prostitutes who successfully  argue to get their jail time reduced by pleading guilty to more charges, because they understand how the time calculations work--that's practical experience, but I wouldn't ask her to write a motion on an assault or a robbery.

[PeterPirate]

Really good analysis.  He took Howard to task for trying to tell Kim what she should do.  He has a companion piece about the Lalo part of the episode.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by PeterPirate

[Kel Varnsen]

Finally got to watch this season as it showed up on Netflix and I can't believe what kind of amateurs Mike hired to be the assassins. Although aren't there still two guys left? The leader sends 2 guys into the tunnel and then tells 2 other guys to find the other end of it. Then Lalo kills the leader and the guys in the tunnel hear it. Then Lalo uses the leaders machine gun to kill the guys in the tunnel. Then we see him with the guy who got scalded with oil and telling him to make the call. But what happened to the other two guys. If Lalo killed them how come the leader didn't hear it? And if he killed them after the tunnel wouldn't they hear the other guys being killed and be ready?

[sunbum51]

On 5/7/2022 at 12:39 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

Finally got to watch this season as it showed up on Netflix and I can't believe what kind of amateurs Mike hired to be the assassins. Although aren't there still two guys left? The leader sends 2 guys into the tunnel and then tells 2 other guys to find the other end of it. Then Lalo kills the leader and the guys in the tunnel hear it. Then Lalo uses the leaders machine gun to kill the guys in the tunnel. Then we see him with the guy who got scalded with oil and telling him to make the call. But what happened to the other two guys. If Lalo killed them how come the leader didn't hear it? And if he killed them after the tunnel wouldn't they hear the other guys being killed and be ready?

Gus hired the assassins, not Mike. I'm fairly certain if Mike would have been in charge, Lalo would be dead and my fav character would still be breathing :-(

[Anela]

Why would she want to punish Howard? I don't understand. 

That was intense. Of course Lalo survived.