S15.E05: Proverbs 17:3

[Bessie]

6 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

So,  Chuck and Sam are in each others heads.  So in theory, Sam should either see what Chuck is going to do before it happens.   Perhaps Sam can gain some control over Chuck or influence Chuck subsconciously somehow.

I got the impression sam was having thinky thoughts along those lines, while Dean was being all hopeless. 

Loved the ghost pepper gag. Very well played by both actors. 

I wasn’t feeling Dean. Once the pepper joke was over, he came across as a little off all episode. Just kind of distant and subdued. 

[Aeryn13]

I thought the actual "hunt" portion, while, yes, boring and easy, was still more engaging than the hunt in last week`s episode. Which was even more lame. Overall, I also found Dean`s involvement in the "hunt" better than last week. Low bar but still. 

Chuck`s ending being one kills the other was predictable and the scenarios he dreams of scream Chuck aka not very exciting stories. I did like the tiny glimpse of Demon!Dean. Yeah, him leaping from the balcony should have been kept. So many other boring ten seconds that could have been cut for it. Never a fan of Speight directing. 

The Lilith actress wasn`t bad but her being brought back was super-random. And more lol!canon. 

Didn`t particularly like the intro with the ghost pepper because at this point hells to the no to such a scene. Maybe in one of the better Seasons, it would have been charming. 

The age joke was just stupid. Noone questions Sam`s badge despite him visibly having changed a LOT more than Dean.

Only halfway interesting thing was Chuck having a pervy obsession with Dean but I think that was just a throwaway line. 

Sam flip-flopping right back to optimism after the completely over-the-top depression from last week just looks silly. What is he gonna be like five minutes from now, ecstatic? 

It wasn`t the worst episode, this Season or otherwise, but Yockey has been capable of better and too bad he bows out on such a "meh" ep.  

[ahrtee]

6 hours ago, Female83 said:

How did Chuck bring Lilith back when the Empty told Castiel that he didn't have power there?

The real question is: why was Lilith in the Empty to start with?  She was a demon (the "first demon") not an angel.  She didn't have grace (whether or not she had a soul is up for grabs). 

John said that the Colt "killed" demons, not just sent them back to hell.  Does that mean that all the ones Sam and Dean killed are now in the Empty?  (And since the rupture supposedly caught all the demons freed from hell back there, that the ones in the Empty are still loose?)  I guess that would make sense if they want all of the Winchesters' greatest hits (literally) to return, since the heavy hitters (like Lilith, Alistair, and...omg...Lucifer?) would be there.  And probably that's how we get Jack back (aside from his conversation with Billie last season).  

Somehow I doubt the writers went through all those mental calisthenics to explain things.  I think they just wanted the characters back and either didn't know or didn't care about the mistakes.  

[Aeryn13]

Just now, ahrtee said:

The real question is: why was Lilith in the Empty to start with?  She was a demon (the "first demon") not an angel.  She didn't have grace (whether or not she had a soul is up for grabs). 

John said that the Colt "killed" demons, not just sent them back to hell.  Does that mean that all the ones Sam and Dean killed are now in the Empty?  (And since the rupture supposedly caught all the demons freed from hell back there, that the ones in the Empty are still loose?)  I guess that would make sense if they want all of the Winchesters' greatest hits (literally) to return, since the heavy hitters (like Lilith, Alistair, and...omg...Lucifer?) would be there.  And probably that's how we get Jack back (aside from his conversation with Billie last season).  

Somehow I doubt the writers went through all those mental calisthenics to explain things.  I think they just wanted the characters back and either didn't know or didn't care about the mistakes.  

Yes, apparently all really dead demons and angels go to the Empty, only really dead Monsters and Leviathans go to Purgatory. I sure hope they leave one particular demon alone. Forever and ever.

[Ray Adverb]

I got a little peeved when Dean tried to use water to find relief from the spicy jerky.  I'm just thinking "No!  Water will never wash off the spicy oils!  You need bread or milk!"

[gonzosgirrl]

35 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

John said that the Colt "killed" demons, not just sent them back to hell.  Does that mean that all the ones Sam and Dean killed are now in the Empty?

Sam killed both Lilith and Alistair with his Hand of Ipecac, not the Colt (apologies if I misunderstood the post here). So how long before Alistair makes his reappearance?

35 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I sure hope they leave one particular demon alone. Forever and ever.

I'll eat my hat if she doesn't appear before it's over.

[Aeryn13]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sam killed both Lilith and Alistair with his Hand of Ipecac, not the Colt (apologies if I misunderstood the post here). So how long before Alistair makes his reappearance?

I'll eat my hat if she doesn't appear before it's over.

Oh, her. sure, I wouldn`t bet against that. I meant a "him", though. 😉

Edited November 15, 2019 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh, her. sure, I wouldn`t bet against that. I meant a "him", though. 😉

Oooh, which one then? Alistair? Yellow Eyes?

[Bobcatkitten]

12 hours ago, Demian said:

Okay, none of this makes any sense at all, but thank you bunches for attempting to explain it to me.  You're a star!

If you are watching this final season without watching the other seasons it's going to be a rough go for you. 

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

If you are watching this final season without watching the other seasons it's going to be a rough go for you. 

Or at least read some of the summaries/recaps.  

[Aeryn13]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Oooh, which one then? Alistair? Yellow Eyes?

Yellow Eyes. Leave him the fuck alone. 

Quote

If you are watching this final season without watching the other seasons it's going to be a rough go for you. 

Rougher than for us who watched it all so far? I can`t believe that. Maybe if you are not aware of how stupid the retcons and "revisitations" are, they are less painful?

[Wynne88]

It's a pity that neither one of the guys can fight anymore, or hold onto a weapon.  Between getting pummeled and strangled by the werewolves and knocked flying by Lilith's mojo, there wasn't a lot of competence on display.  Even when Lilith was caught by the devils trap bullet and Sam had the demon-killing knife in his hand, they didn't try stabbing her before taking her at her word that they couldn't kill her and running away.  Sad.

[juppschmitz]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yes, apparently all really dead demons and angels go to the Empty, only really dead Monsters and Leviathans go to Purgatory. I sure hope they leave one particular demon alone. Forever and ever.

If you mean who I think you mean they'll leave him alone alright because the actor is way too smart to get involved in this crapfest again.

He went on to way, way better things. Oh how I miss Carver.

Edit: Oops, wrong demon 😬

But sweet Jesus don't anybody let Dabb go near Azazel!

Edited November 15, 2019 by juppschmitz

[Casseiopeia]

10 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

My favorite part was the writers saying the first half was boring because it was Lilith's/Chuck's plan all along. That's nice, I'm sure this isn't the last time we're hearing that one.

Spn writers really said let’s write some bad episodes and blame it on god

[SueB]

Preamble: So, the new 'game' in town is meta madness.  I wish old Charlie was here to help deconstruct reality from fiction.  She'd be good at it.  In truth, I'm not a fan of evil!Chuck but if this is the game, I'm gonna play.  That's how I roll.  And there were some outstanding moments. TL;DR: See bottom line. 

Real or Chuck Fiction: That's the big challenge.  I'll break down elements and identify what influence Chuck had on them IMO.
- Sam's dreams: Real.  I don't think Chuck knows Sam is mind surfing Chuck's alternate endings. The theme is 'evil brother murders not evil brother.' It's now gone both ways as who is playing 'evil brother'.
- Werewolf brother turns bad after Dad dies: Real with 1-2 nudges. There were 2 dead (per newspaper) that caused Sam & Dean to drive to the case.  I think two monster brothers with such different perspective gave Chuck an opportunity to influence.  I don't think Chuck actually can force people or monsters to choose to kill.  I think he can nudge them, manipulate them, or even KILL them, but not make a choice for them.  (note: Monsters' and free will is a dissertation-worthy discussion, I'm using the 'monsters can choose' option).  I think Chuck may have killed off the Dad, thus forcing the conflict with the two brothers. He may have also nudged them to 'pure-blood' status so they could kill anytime. Once those two conditions happened, the predatory brother killed two campers and that set up the Winchesters to investigate.
- Three blond beauties go camping: Chuck Fiction with Real People.  I believe those three girls existed, I believe they were friends, I believe they graduated college together. But I think this was a "It's a Wonderful Life"-style scenario they were inserted into.  First, the scenario ticked off the horror tropes - blond coeds drinking too much while camping.  Maybe they weren't actually adorable blonds, Chuck may have enhanced that. Lillith mentioned his 'process', backstory would be part of it. Camping was campy, I think they were given that backstory and plopped into the danger-woods as easy victims.  When the first went to go get more alcohol, the other two commented that was not like them.  I think Chuck nudged her into going outside.  Same with the second. And Lillith picked who would not die. 
- A witness survives: Real. I think Chuck new that the younger brother would NOT kill her.  He's omniscient.  He actually IS good at knowing how most people will react. He put the circumstances together but knew the likely outcome. 
- Lilith possesses the witness: Real. I think she possessed Ashley after the initial attack but before the boys got there. 
- The witness knew the werewolf. Chuck Fiction.  Lilith knew.  
- Bonding moment: Chuck Fiction. Delusional trial balloon on accepting fate?  Not sure.  Definitely a setup for post-rescue sex with Dean. Because Chuck is pervy.
-  Rescue. Real with some Chuck nudges. The moral conflict with the werewolf brothers WAS real. I think the dropped gun, handy for the good brother, and the imminent peril of Dean was nudged by Chuck.  But the decision to shoot was the good brother's call.  
- Lilith speared: Real. Chuck's story had Lilith seducing Dean. But Dean would never have revealed the location of the Equalizer.  And Chuck must not have known or he would have taken that off the table much earlier.  His knowledge with Sam and Dean is no longer perfect. So I suspect he intended Lilith to reveal herself at some horrific moment and then use her torture/powers to get the guns location.  With her speared, Lilith had to start improvising a new path to get to Chuck's endgame for this little story. I don't think Chuck wrote Lilith's specific actions.  Which is interesting. 
- Lilith melts the gun. Real AND Chuck's story.  Chuck knew Lilith could melt the gun. It was probably a condition for her release and freedom.  And she wants to go back to eating babies.  So, she accomplished it differently (real) but it was his story. 
- Post case Bro-Moment: Real. Chuck isn't able to watch them like he did before.  This is what the boys are feeling/thinking.  And it was beautifully written by Yockey. 

Implications:
This all means that Chuck intended to reveal himself still manipulating Sam and Dean or at least knew it would be a byproduct.  Because if he knew where the gun was he could have just eliminated it. But instead he needed a 'character' who could and it required direct confrontation.  Regardless of intention or byproduct, it works for Chuck because Chuck's revenge is to LET the boys know he's manipulating their lives.  He's still pissed at his favorite characters (Dean didn't kill Jack, Sam shot him) and now he's going to toy with them for a while before ending their existence in some horrible murder/suicide fantasy.  I think "Atomic Monsters' showed him he could still write their story, even without full insight. 
The question is... is he really a super crappy writer ('3 coeds go camping' scenario this week, cheerleaders die last week) or is he MAKING it crappy to piss them off.  During the case they realized something was off.  The jury is still out for me.  Clearly the cases ARE over-simplified tripe.  But because he's shot, he's manufacturing stories for the Winchesters versus just watching in on their lives.  Which is actually potentially the most HOPEFUL element for me.  Because it says that when Chuck is actively involved in the case details, it's pretty clunky.  It could be clunky to be cruel or it could be clunky because he can't create the spark of realism that naturally occurs. If it's the latter, that's an affirmation that his nudges in their lives have been limited to some big moves up until now.  Not every single case.  

Future forecast:
No clue.  Chuck has outed his continued presence.   But the boys are not going to ignore people dying, not in their DNA.  Which means we'll have future cases.  But I suspect Chuck will get better with this writing style and we'll see more intent.  As will Sam and Dean. This case had the intent of taking out the gun.  Mission accomplished.  But the more knowledge Sam and Dean get, the more likely they are to come up with their OWN ending. 

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  Chuck took an existing circumstance (two werewolf brothers with different life views) and created a hunting scenario around it to attract the boys.  His goals were both to continue to write but to also slag the gun.  He succeeded.  He's still working within the confines of Free Will, just nudging the story along.  The boys know but are likely to continue to play the game rather than let innocents die -- at least until they can figure out how to thwart Chuck's plan. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by SueB

[Bobcatkitten]

So why was the equalizer gun important to God. He said it could kill him but then he was actually shot with it and didn't die so.....

[SueB]

Just now, Bobcatkitten said:

So why was the equalizer gun important to God. He said it could kill him but then he was actually shot with it and didn't die so.....

IMO Chuck has been literally hoist by his own petard. He had to make something powerful enough that Dean could kill Jack and in doing so created a weapon that could hurt him.

We don't know for sure if it could or could not kill Chuck.  Sam shot him in the shoulder, not the head.  Did Sam do that on purpose or was he just pissed and missed.  The boys shooting accuracy has always been subject to plot.  But we DO know that it at least damages Chuck.  So Chuck wants it away from Sam and Dean because he's evil, not stupid. 

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

We don't know for sure if it could or could not kill Chuck.  Sam shot him in the shoulder, not the head.  Did Sam do that on purpose

I think he did it on purpose.  He wouldn't want the sun to die. It started to the last time Chuck was mortally wounded.  And, he probably didn't want to die himself. He was just getting his attention--in the stupidest way possible.

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think he did it on purpose.  He wouldn't want the sun to die. It started to the last time Chuck was mortally wounded.  And, he probably didn't want to die himself. He was just getting his attention--in the stupidest way possible.

Under "fight or flight" I find myself making these kind of stupid decisions too.  I can empathize.  I can also empathize with wanting to something, ANYTHING, to hurt Chuck -- and thus taking a shot.  But I agree, not really thinking very clearly when he did it. 

[Bobcatkitten]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

Under "fight or flight" I find myself making these kind of stupid decisions too.  I can empathize.  I can also empathize with wanting to something, ANYTHING, to hurt Chuck -- and thus taking a shot.  But I agree, not really thinking very clearly when he did it. 

Yeah, Sam just reacted. I probably would have done the same thing. 

[tennisgurl]

So that was...a thing. I think I need to just list my thoughts out. It had some things that I liked, and some good directing moments, and some concepts that I found semi-promising that I will elaborate on later, but for the most part, I was not a fan of this episode, or the turns this season is taking, especially so close to the end. 

The pepper jerky joke was kind of cute and funny, and it was nice seeing Sam and Dean have a light hearted moment, before we back to the inevitable angst. The joke about Dean looking older than his picture though, was just stupid and insulting. We all know that Jensen is still one of the hottest hotties in all of CW land! It especially falls apart when Jensen looks like he has hardly aged, while Jared certainly has clearly changed since the first few seasons. Not in a bad way, they both look great, its just that Jared really did look like a baby when the show started and now looks like a grown man, while Jensen has stayed kind of the same. Its not only stupid, its about mean spirited towards Dean/Jensen. 

So how much of what happened this episode actually happened, and how much was Chuck writing his obvious foreshadowing to dick with Sam and Dean? It sounded like the werewolf brothers never killed people before these girls and were just doing werewolf Sam/Dean stuff out in the woods (they even had an angsty dead dad story!), so was it Chuck that made the older brother start killing? He made the girls go out in the woods? Were they even all originally blond?! 

I generally enjoy meta fiction to an extent, but I think that that this show has really gone off the meta deep end, and is just using meta as an excuse to suck. Saying that you know your writing sucks doesent make it suck any less, it just means that you know your work is garbage, and instead of fixing it, your just doubling down on it, which is the laziest way to handle writing woes! "Haha, if I admit that my writing makes no sense, then its post-modern and brilliant now, not lazy and stupid! We`re self aware!" 

That being said, I do like meta fiction when well done, and the only thing in this meta mess that I do think is interesting is that Chuck is becoming a stand in for the many writers and show runners, especially lately, who are convinced that stories have to be dark, violent, and filled with pointless and cruel death to be "brilliant" which is certainly a good mind set to take down. So often, while these show runners are convinced that their stories are "brilliant" and "real" even if they are actually contrived, insulting to the fans and characters, and just end up throwing character development and story structure out the window for the sake of "shocking twists" and "gritty realism" which is an attitude that I increasingly cant stand, and I do think that their take down of that mindset has some potential. Whether it will do that or not in any satisfactory way is probably not really likely, but its at least something kind of interesting. 

[Iguana]

Well, so that episode happened...

Listen, show.  Having the characters comment on how stupid the plot is while it is happening  does not make the plot any less stupid for the people watching it.  Getting "meta" is not, in and of itself, a substitute for decent writing and directing.  Commenting on how "God" is a lousy hack of a writer doesn't excuse making an episode this lousy and hackneyed.  

Please do better.

[Castiels Cat]

14 hours ago, ahrtee said:

People (and even gods, I guess) can still have preferences.  The Greek gods used to have favorites among humans all the time.  

Excellent point. This is a plot point in the Odyssey and Iliad for example... and Supernatural per Atomic Monsters  in text and also I would argue in MatEotS and SS in text because he let Dean change his story. It's also implied that Dean changes the story in season 11. I don't think it ends the way Chuck wrote it per Metatron's horrified reaction. Chuck apparently left it up to Dean. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I think this has a lot to do with the writers not talking to each other and writing in a vacuum.   Episode 4 was finalized first and filmed first so most likely Perez didn't bother checking with the other writers to see which brother was supposed have which reaction.  So he chose to have Dean prop up Sam.   The other writers decided to pick Sam for whatever reason. 

Maybe because that's often what Sam does. Especially in situations when their back is against the wall.

Who knows, maybe it's Sam's somewhat contrary nature in that he just seems to feel like he has to fight against / question everything, but often times when the situation seems most hopeless, Sam insists that there has to be a way to fight it. Dark Side of the Moon, the beginning of season 7, the end of season 11 - off the top of my head - are good examples.

Maybe it's more related to Sam's not wanting to accept fate and so he has to fight that - which this situation is this week, with Chuck wanting his ending - whereas last week the depression / pessimism was more about the people they lost. But now that Sam has something concrete to fight against - in that he knows now what those visions represent and he's understandably indignant - now Sam can insist that there has to be another way and his contrary nature comes out. Sam can't really fight against his depression about losing those he loves, but Chuck wanting to determine their fate and wanting to make them kill each other? Sam can "fight" against that and insist hell no, there has to be another way...

That's all I got in terms of an explanation.

[Castiels Cat]

8 minutes ago, Iguana said:

Well, so that episode happened...

Listen, show.  Having the characters comment on how stupid the plot is while it is happening  does not make the plot any less stupid for the people watching it.  Getting "meta" is not, in and of itself, a substitute for decent writing and directing.  Commenting on how "God" is a lousy hack of a writer doesn't excuse making an episode this lousy and hackneyed.  

Please do better.

It's possible that this approach could work in the short-term only in vety talent hands.

Note my carefully chosen words.

Ben Edlund was a meta master. Also Carver.

Not these hacks.

[Castiels Cat]

17 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So that was...a thing. I think I need to just list my thoughts out. It had some things that I liked, and some good directing moments, and some concepts that I found semi-promising that I will elaborate on later, but for the most part, I was not a fan of this episode, or the turns this season is taking, especially so close to the end. 

The pepper jerky joke was kind of cute and funny, and it was nice seeing Sam and Dean have a light hearted moment, before we back to the inevitable angst. The joke about Dean looking older than his picture though, was just stupid and insulting. We all know that Jensen is still one of the hottest hotties in all of CW land! It especially falls apart when Jensen looks like he has hardly aged, while Jared certainly has clearly changed since the first few seasons. Not in a bad way, they both look great, its just that Jared really did look like a baby when the show started and now looks like a grown man, while Jensen has stayed kind of the same. Its not only stupid, its about mean spirited towards Dean/Jensen. 

So how much of what happened this episode actually happened, and how much was Chuck writing his obvious foreshadowing to dick with Sam and Dean? It sounded like the werewolf brothers never killed people before these girls and were just doing werewolf Sam/Dean stuff out in the woods (they even had an angsty dead dad story!), so was it Chuck that made the older brother start killing? He made the girls go out in the woods? Were they even all originally blond?! 

I generally enjoy meta fiction to an extent, but I think that that this show has really gone off the meta deep end, and is just using meta as an excuse to suck. Saying that you know your writing sucks doesent make it suck any less, it just means that you know your work is garbage, and instead of fixing it, your just doubling down on it, which is the laziest way to handle writing woes! "Haha, if I admit that my writing makes no sense, then its post-modern and brilliant now, not lazy and stupid! We`re self aware!" 

That being said, I do like meta fiction when well done, and the only thing in this meta mess that I do think is interesting is that Chuck is becoming a stand in for the many writers and show runners, especially lately, who are convinced that stories have to be dark, violent, and filled with pointless and cruel death to be "brilliant" which is certainly a good mind set to take down. So often, while these show runners are convinced that their stories are "brilliant" and "real" even if they are actually contrived, insulting to the fans and characters, and just end up throwing character development and story structure out the window for the sake of "shocking twists" and "gritty realism" which is an attitude that I increasingly cant stand, and I do think that their take down of that mindset has some potential. Whether it will do that or not in any satisfactory way is probably not really likely, but its at least something kind of interesting. 

Maybe they were upset that fans voted them the #2 CW villain after all and maybe they do read the boards and Twitter and are hurt by negative feedback. Maybe they are doubling down on the idea that they suck from fan rage.

We suck do we. Okay then. That's your last season storyline...

It's very on point. They are showing us what really bad writing is. 

I still think dropping Dean's storyline was worse.

And the show used to be better in ye olden days.

Argh.

[tennisgurl]

3 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Excellent point. This is a plot point in the Odyssey and Iliad for example.

You know, if this show was significantly smarter than it is, this whole plot could be an interesting modern day take on an ancient classic hero myth. In a lot of those stories, especially among the ancient Greeks, heroes were often stuck dealing with petty jerk gods who played favorites with humans or messed with them due to their own agendas, and humans were often stuck as cosmic playthings to the gods and their machinisms, even if the gods were just bored and wanted to be entertained by throwing monsters at Odysseus or whatever. That could actually be really interesting...if the show committed to it or was doing it on purpose of course. Really, the metaphore is probably about Dabb being God and Chuck being the annoying dickhead Dabb stand in. Of course, that might just be my own interpretation! 

So who is going to be sad next week? Sam or Dean, its all so random! They really are in a catch 22 here. If they kill Chuck, they kill everything, right? So what can they do? I do love watching Jensen act the crap out of Deans dear and anger, and his understandable rage is something I really want to explore more. I mean, all that he has suffered, all that his family has gone through, all the death and misery that he has seen, all of the friends and loved ones and allies who have suffered and died, that was all for some assholes sick amusement, and him being furious and wanting to lash out makes sense. I want to see more of it! 

Sam being connected to Chuck, and his dreams being Chucks rough drafts of their crappy depressing ending, was pretty much what I saw coming, but what was also interesting was that Chuck wanted to keep Dean alive too, so I guess that Dean has more to do in this cosmic clusterfucker than be Sams keeper/killer, which I guess is nice. I dont mind that the magic gun is gone, I want Sam and Dean to find a better solution to deal with Chuck.

Meta can be a great way to explore interesting concepts of story telling or for writers to poke some light hearted fun at their show and its quirks, but thats not really working here. Its just making things confusing and weird. 

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, if this show was significantly smarter than it is, this whole plot could be an interesting modern day take on an ancient classic hero myth. In a lot of those stories, especially among the ancient Greeks, heroes were often stuck dealing with petty jerk gods who played favorites with humans or messed with them due to their own agendas, and humans were often stuck as cosmic playthings to the gods and their machinisms, even if the gods were just bored and wanted to be entertained by throwing monsters at Odysseus or whatever. That could actually be really interesting...if the show committed to it or was doing it on purpose of course. Really, the metaphore is probably about Dabb being God and Chuck being the annoying dickhead Dabb stand in. Of course, that might just be my own interpretation! 

So who is going to be sad next week? Sam or Dean, its all so random! They really are in a catch 22 here. If they kill Chuck, they kill everything, right? So what can they do? I do love watching Jensen act the crap out of Deans dear and anger, and his understandable rage is something I really want to explore more. I mean, all that he has suffered, all that his family has gone through, all the death and misery that he has seen, all of the friends and loved ones and allies who have suffered and died, that was all for some assholes sick amusement, and him being furious and wanting to lash out makes sense. I want to see more of it! 

Sam being connected to Chuck, and his dreams being Chucks rough drafts of their crappy depressing ending, was pretty much what I saw coming, but what was also interesting was that Chuck wanted to keep Dean alive too, so I guess that Dean has more to do in this cosmic clusterfucker than be Sams keeper/killer, which I guess is nice. I dont mind that the magic gun is gone, I want Sam and Dean to find a better solution to deal with Chuck.

Meta can be a great way to explore interesting concepts of story telling or for writers to poke some light hearted fun at their show and its quirks, but thats not really working here. Its just making things confusing and weird. 

I think since "one brother kills the other" is Chuck`s dream ending, this will be the one we can strike from the list. I mean, the entire point of scenes like the last scene in this episode should be to set up a "we won`t let this happen". Even Dean, as down as he was, pretty much said this won`t happen. 

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Preamble: So, the new 'game' in town is meta madness.  I wish old Charlie was here to help deconstruct reality from fiction.  She'd be good at it.  In truth, I'm not a fan of evil!Chuck but if this is the game, I'm gonna play.  That's how I roll.  And there were some outstanding moments. TL;DR: See bottom line. 

Real or Chuck Fiction: That's the big challenge.  I'll break down elements and identify what influence Chuck had on them IMO.
- Sam's dreams: Real.  I don't think Chuck knows Sam is mind surfing Chuck's alternate endings. The theme is 'evil brother murders not evil brother.' It's now gone both ways as who is playing 'evil brother'.
- Werewolf brother turns bad after Dad dies: Real with 1-2 nudges. There were 2 dead (per newspaper) that caused Sam & Dean to drive to the case.  I think two monster brothers with such different perspective gave Chuck an opportunity to influence.  I don't think Chuck actually can force people or monsters to choose to kill.  I think he can nudge them, manipulate them, or even KILL them, but not make a choice for them.  (note: Monsters' and free will is a dissertation-worthy discussion, I'm using the 'monsters can choose' option).  I think Chuck may have killed off the Dad, thus forcing the conflict with the two brothers. He may have also nudged them to 'pure-blood' status so they could kill anytime. Once those two conditions happened, the predatory brother killed two campers and that set up the Winchesters to investigate.
- Three blond beauties go camping: Chuck Fiction with Real People.  I believe those three girls existed, I believe they were friends, I believe they graduated college together. But I think this was a "It's a Wonderful Life"-style scenario they were inserted into.  First, the scenario ticked off the horror tropes - blond coeds drinking too much while camping.  Maybe they weren't actually adorable blonds, Chuck may have enhanced that. Lillith mentioned his 'process', backstory would be part of it. Camping was campy, I think they were given that backstory and plopped into the danger-woods as easy victims.  When the first went to go get more alcohol, the other two commented that was not like them.  I think Chuck nudged her into going outside.  Same with the second. And Lillith picked who would not die. 
- A witness survives: Real. I think Chuck new that the younger brother would NOT kill her.  He's omniscient.  He actually IS good at knowing how most people will react. He put the circumstances together but knew the likely outcome. 
- Lilith possesses the witness: Real. I think she possessed Ashley after the initial attack but before the boys got there. 
- The witness knew the werewolf. Chuck Fiction.  Lilith knew.  
- Bonding moment: Chuck Fiction. Delusional trial balloon on accepting fate?  Not sure.  Definitely a setup for post-rescue sex with Dean. Because Chuck is pervy.
-  Rescue. Real with some Chuck nudges. The moral conflict with the werewolf brothers WAS real. I think the dropped gun, handy for the good brother, and the imminent peril of Dean was nudged by Chuck.  But the decision to shoot was the good brother's call.  
- Lilith speared: Real. Chuck's story had Lilith seducing Dean. But Dean would never have revealed the location of the Equalizer.  And Chuck must not have known or he would have taken that off the table much earlier.  His knowledge with Sam and Dean is no longer perfect. So I suspect he intended Lilith to reveal herself at some horrific moment and then use her torture/powers to get the guns location.  With her speared, Lilith had to start improvising a new path to get to Chuck's endgame for this little story. I don't think Chuck wrote Lilith's specific actions.  Which is interesting. 
- Lilith melts the gun. Real AND Chuck's story.  Chuck knew Lilith could melt the gun. It was probably a condition for her release and freedom.  And she wants to go back to eating babies.  So, she accomplished it differently (real) but it was his story. 
- Post case Bro-Moment: Real. Chuck isn't able to watch them like he did before.  This is what the boys are feeling/thinking.  And it was beautifully written by Yockey. 

Implications:
This all means that Chuck intended to reveal himself still manipulating Sam and Dean or at least knew it would be a byproduct.  Because if he knew where the gun was he could have just eliminated it. But instead he needed a 'character' who could and it required direct confrontation.  Regardless of intention or byproduct, it works for Chuck because Chuck's revenge is to LET the boys know he's manipulating their lives.  He's still pissed at his favorite characters (Dean didn't kill Jack, Sam shot him) and now he's going to toy with them for a while before ending their existence in some horrible murder/suicide fantasy.  I think "Atomic Monsters' showed him he could still write their story, even without full insight. 
The question is... is he really a super crappy writer ('3 coeds go camping' scenario this week, cheerleaders die last week) or is he MAKING it crappy to piss them off.  During the case they realized something was off.  The jury is still out for me.  Clearly the cases ARE over-simplified tripe.  But because he's shot, he's manufacturing stories for the Winchesters versus just watching in on their lives.  Which is actually potentially the most HOPEFUL element for me.  Because it says that when Chuck is actively involved in the case details, it's pretty clunky.  It could be clunky to be cruel or it could be clunky because he can't create the spark of realism that naturally occurs. If it's the latter, that's an affirmation that his nudges in their lives have been limited to some big moves up until now.  Not every single case.  

Future forecast:
No clue.  Chuck has outed his continued presence.   But the boys are not going to ignore people dying, not in their DNA.  Which means we'll have future cases.  But I suspect Chuck will get better with this writing style and we'll see more intent.  As will Sam and Dean. This case had the intent of taking out the gun.  Mission accomplished.  But the more knowledge Sam and Dean get, the more likely they are to come up with their OWN ending. 

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  Chuck took an existing circumstance (two werewolf brothers with different life views) and created a hunting scenario around it to attract the boys.  His goals were both to continue to write but to also slag the gun.  He succeeded.  He's still working within the confines of Free Will, just nudging the story along.  The boys know but are likely to continue to play the game rather than let innocents die -- at least until they can figure out how to thwart Chuck's plan. 

Good analysis. I would also add that Sam's visions indicate that he is writing new drafts for book 5 of the Winchester Gospel. He let Dean change the story. He has changed his mind about that so one brother killing the other (evil) brother is back on. Of course it is 10 years later so he has more options at his disposal. We have seen 3 drafts so far. All draw upon canonical elements. I realized this after Atomic Monsters. At first I thought Sam was seeing a possible future and then ... doh! Of course it was Chuck's dark draft that horrified Becky.

I am concerned about Cas' comment regarding the power in Sam's wound however and what that means. Cas felt Amara's power firsthand so he should know approximately what God's power is like.

I also think that Chuck needed Becky to write because he is diminished. He received a boost from her pep talk. That may not last forever. The damage from the wound may also be progressive. We don't know. Amara said he was scared.

I do not think he's writing bad stories to make them angry. It may be a sign of his weakness. Or he is trying to tip his hand and make sure they are getting the message. 

Thus far we have:

Demonic Boy King with demonic army vs The End Dean with ragtag band in the bunker. Dean dies.

Samifer vs. Dean with the Colt in the Bunker. Dean dies.

Demonic MoC Dean with First Blade vs. Sam in the Bunker. Sam dies.

What's next... soulless Sam. Vampire Dean. Post-Purgatory Dean. DEAN!Michael. Regular MoC Dean.

[Castiels Cat]

38 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, if this show was significantly smarter than it is, this whole plot could be an interesting modern day take on an ancient classic hero myth. In a lot of those stories, especially among the ancient Greeks, heroes were often stuck dealing with petty jerk gods who played favorites with humans or messed with them due to their own agendas, and humans were often stuck as cosmic playthings to the gods and their machinisms, even if the gods were just bored and wanted to be entertained by throwing monsters at Odysseus or whatever. That could actually be really interesting...if the show committed to it or was doing it on purpose of course. Really, the metaphore is probably about Dabb being God and Chuck being the annoying dickhead Dabb stand in. Of course, that might just be my own interpretation! 

So who is going to be sad next week? Sam or Dean, its all so random! They really are in a catch 22 here. If they kill Chuck, they kill everything, right? So what can they do? I do love watching Jensen act the crap out of Deans dear and anger, and his understandable rage is something I really want to explore more. I mean, all that he has suffered, all that his family has gone through, all the death and misery that he has seen, all of the friends and loved ones and allies who have suffered and died, that was all for some assholes sick amusement, and him being furious and wanting to lash out makes sense. I want to see more of it! 

Sam being connected to Chuck, and his dreams being Chucks rough drafts of their crappy depressing ending, was pretty much what I saw coming, but what was also interesting was that Chuck wanted to keep Dean alive too, so I guess that Dean has more to do in this cosmic clusterfucker than be Sams keeper/killer, which I guess is nice. I dont mind that the magic gun is gone, I want Sam and Dean to find a better solution to deal with Chuck.

Meta can be a great way to explore interesting concepts of story telling or for writers to poke some light hearted fun at their show and its quirks, but thats not really working here. Its just making things confusing and weird. 

Hercules and Xena managed to do it in modern times. Not that they were perfect.

[Castiels Cat]

45 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think since "one brother kills the other" is Chuck`s dream ending, this will be the one we can strike from the list. I mean, the entire point of scenes like the last scene in this episode should be to set up a "we won`t let this happen". Even Dean, as down as he was, pretty much said this won`t happen. 

My first instinct is Thelma and Louise except that is Jensen's dream ending and we know that he is uncomfortable with the ending so that is not it.

He is also now talking about revisiting Supernatural later in a different venue... so whatever happened... there is a way out of there.

I do not know. It was obvious to me that they would try to set up a version of Swan Song 2.0 when Chuck turned on them. If Dean can't persuade God to let him change his story then he needs to turn to someone more powerful. We know Amara is and that she likes Dean. It's another profound bond.

Unfortunately they can't kill him. The only recourse is locking him up. Will she be down for that.

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought the actual "hunt" portion, while, yes, boring and easy, was still more engaging than the hunt in last week`s episode. Which was even more lame. Overall, I also found Dean`s involvement in the "hunt" better than last week. Low bar but still. 

Chuck`s ending being one kills the other was predictable and the scenarios he dreams of scream Chuck aka not very exciting stories. I did like the tiny glimpse of Demon!Dean. Yeah, him leaping from the balcony should have been kept. So many other boring ten seconds that could have been cut for it. Never a fan of Speight directing. 

The Lilith actress wasn`t bad but her being brought back was super-random. And more lol!canon. 

Didn`t particularly like the intro with the ghost pepper because at this point hells to the no to such a scene. Maybe in one of the better Seasons, it would have been charming. 

The age joke was just stupid. Noone questions Sam`s badge despite him visibly having changed a LOT more than Dean.

Only halfway interesting thing was Chuck having a pervy obsession with Dean but I think that was just a throwaway line. 

Sam flip-flopping right back to optimism after the completely over-the-top depression from last week just looks silly. What is he gonna be like five minutes from now, ecstatic? 

It wasn`t the worst episode, this Season or otherwise, but Yockey has been capable of better and too bad he bows out on such a "meh" ep.  

I think Lilith may be the first of many original Apocalypse figures popping up. He is clearly reworking that storyline as The End. He let Dean change things and now he's changed his mind.

15 hours ago, Cambion said:

Yeah, I love all the crazy motel motifs.  That's something I look for every time.

I legit was talking to the tv telling her to leave Baby alone!  

And forgot to mention in my comments above that we predicted the gun in the glovebox was going to come back to bite them in the ass. 

The trunk is warded. Why wasn't it in the bloody trunk.

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

It's a pity that neither one of the guys can fight anymore, or hold onto a weapon.  Between getting pummeled and strangled by the werewolves and knocked flying by Lilith's mojo, there wasn't a lot of competence on display.  Even when Lilith was caught by the devils trap bullet and Sam had the demon-killing knife in his hand, they didn't try stabbing her before taking her at her word that they couldn't kill her and running away.  Sad.

They had an angel blade! That trumps a demon knife. Wtf.

Then there's the other Dabbian spectrum of bad writing... mortally wounded Sam single handedly kills 3(?) Werewolves in Red Meat.

????

Edited November 15, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

I went back to the transcript for Moriah to read up on the Equalizer or the Hammurabi, Chuck's other name choice. Not much information in the script. Basically you kill someone and you die too. No explanation for why Sam is connected to Chuck or why Cas feels a strange energy in the wound that obviously concerns him.

Chuck is losing power do my guess is that Sam may receive Chuck's power via their wound connection. ???? IDK. It complicates the story in my opinion in the final season.

Or does it?

It's also troubling. Chuck's wound is minor. Any  power transfer is small but corrupting because Chuck is evil. Chuck currently is trying out storylines in which an evil brother kills the other brother.

Then I looked up Hammurabi. It's the Babylonian code of law which includes an eye for an eye, etc.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Shannonsspirit]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So that was...a thing. I think I need to just list my thoughts out. It had some things that I liked, and some good directing moments, and some concepts that I found semi-promising that I will elaborate on later, but for the most part, I was not a fan of this episode, or the turns this season is taking, especially so close to the end. 

The pepper jerky joke was kind of cute and funny, and it was nice seeing Sam and Dean have a light hearted moment, before we back to the inevitable angst. The joke about Dean looking older than his picture though, was just stupid and insulting. We all know that Jensen is still one of the hottest hotties in all of CW land! It especially falls apart when Jensen looks like he has hardly aged, while Jared certainly has clearly changed since the first few seasons. Not in a bad way, they both look great, its just that Jared really did look like a baby when the show started and now looks like a grown man, while Jensen has stayed kind of the same. Its not only stupid, its about mean spirited towards Dean/Jensen. 

So how much of what happened this episode actually happened, and how much was Chuck writing his obvious foreshadowing to dick with Sam and Dean? It sounded like the werewolf brothers never killed people before these girls and were just doing werewolf Sam/Dean stuff out in the woods (they even had an angsty dead dad story!), so was it Chuck that made the older brother start killing? He made the girls go out in the woods? Were they even all originally blond?! 

I generally enjoy meta fiction to an extent, but I think that that this show has really gone off the meta deep end, and is just using meta as an excuse to suck. Saying that you know your writing sucks doesent make it suck any less, it just means that you know your work is garbage, and instead of fixing it, your just doubling down on it, which is the laziest way to handle writing woes! "Haha, if I admit that my writing makes no sense, then its post-modern and brilliant now, not lazy and stupid! We`re self aware!" 

That being said, I do like meta fiction when well done, and the only thing in this meta mess that I do think is interesting is that Chuck is becoming a stand in for the many writers and show runners, especially lately, who are convinced that stories have to be dark, violent, and filled with pointless and cruel death to be "brilliant" which is certainly a good mind set to take down. So often, while these show runners are convinced that their stories are "brilliant" and "real" even if they are actually contrived, insulting to the fans and characters, and just end up throwing character development and story structure out the window for the sake of "shocking twists" and "gritty realism" which is an attitude that I increasingly cant stand, and I do think that their take down of that mindset has some potential. Whether it will do that or not in any satisfactory way is probably not really likely, but its at least something kind of interesting. 

What you have written about the meta self-awareness is interesting. The boring stories, the bright lighting, the awkward dialogue(particulary in the first two episodes)the convenient escapes and quick resolutions all credited to a mediocre writer. Additionally, there is the inordinate amount of dismissed or alter lore and canon.

The problem is that we, the audience, are being subjected to it. The ratings really are dropping as the viewers become self-aware. I have felt detached from this show for a couple years, now. I have only watched 3/5 episodes and did not buy season 14. After last night, I have decided to just stop.

Another problem is they really aren't visionaries and good writers. Retconning Chuck was out of nowhere with far better stories to tell that could have unified 15 years, rather than deconstructing them with meta jokes.

I went into this season, following the appalling Moriah with belief that it wasn't Chuck, or it was an extended test for the Winchesters to stop being so impulsive and reactive, while finding faith in themselves, the world and God. Somewhere, in the back of my mind I knew it was a foolish hope. Season 14 had no story to tell. Why would Season 15 be any better?

Five episodes into the final season and nothing has changed. It's a one note, one joke meta escapade until Sam and Dean wrestle back free will(that they always had until this stupid retcon) and, boom, the end. 

[tennisgurl]

You know, with all this talk about meta fiction and being self aware and authors writing depressing stories in the mindset of "if its dark, it must be good!" no matter how bad it actually and authors dealing with their creations, it makes me think of Grant Morrison's famous run on the comic book Animal Man, which has some of the most though provoking and heartfelt meta fiction that I ever read, and its almost what I think they are angling for here, just that they're not doing it very well. 

Spoilers for how his run ends, and its really great and I recommend it to everyone. 

Spoiler

In the beginning of the comic, its a somewhat usual comic book story, and then things start to get more and more surreal, with the main character meeting characters that has been deleted from cannon, seeing his fun action comic turning increasingly dark and violent, including the death of his whole family, and after many trails and tribulations, he meets up with his own author, Grant Morrison himself (or at least a drawn version of him) where he calls Grant out on how he and writers like him treat their characters like garbage and kill them for cheap pathos, and while its just a story to them, its their real lives and they have real feelings. While Grant admits that this whole conversation is happening because he wrote it like this, it does get him thinking, and he feels remorse for his killing off of characters and denying his hero a happy ending for the sake of drama, and he ends up writing his heroes family back to life, because "even fictional characters deserve kindness." 

[Bobcatkitten]

I can't get over the absolute ludicrousness that the gun would still be in the trunk rather than locked away and warded in the bunker. It's ridiculous.

[Castiels Cat]

21 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I can't get over the absolute ludicrousness that the gun would still be in the trunk rather than locked away and warded in the bunker. It's ridiculous.

It was in the glove box.

[Castiels Cat]

23 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, with all this talk about meta fiction and being self aware and authors writing depressing stories in the mindset of "if its dark, it must be good!" no matter how bad it actually and authors dealing with their creations, it makes me think of Grant Morrison's famous run on the comic book Animal Man, which has some of the most though provoking and heartfelt meta fiction that I ever read, and its almost what I think they are angling for here, just that they're not doing it very well. 

Spoilers for how his run ends, and its really great and I recommend it to everyone. 

  Hide contents

In the beginning of the comic, its a somewhat usual comic book story, and then things start to get more and more surreal, with the main character meeting characters that has been deleted from cannon, seeing his fun action comic turning increasingly dark and violent, including the death of his whole family, and after many trails and tribulations, he meets up with his own author, Grant Morrison himself (or at least a drawn version of him) where he calls Grant out on how he and writers like him treat their characters like garbage and kill them for cheap pathos, and while its just a story to them, its their real lives and they have real feelings. While Grant admits that this whole conversation is happening because he wrote it like this, it does get him thinking, and he feels remorse for his killing off of characters and denying his hero a happy ending for the sake of drama, and he ends up writing his heroes family back to life, because "even fictional characters deserve kindness." 

OMG. I can see why Jensen would have qualms. Me... I thought the 300th episode was badly written and squishy even if I thought that the acting was good.

Maybe Sam starts writing too?

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I can't get over the absolute ludicrousness that the gun would still be in the trunk rather than locked away and warded in the bunker. It's ridiculous.

Even after Lilith's convoluted exposition, it makes zero sense. It does nothing but dumb down the Winchesters, especially Dean. Although I don't believe for a moment Sam wouldn't have asked where it is at some point, therefore signed off on leaving it in the glovebox as well. Stupid.

[bettername2come]

Jensen's delivery of "It's God, Sam!" broke my heart and really made the episode worthwhile for me. It's just so sad and defeated. I'm gonna miss the power Jensen can put into just a few words.

I'm seriously judging the casting department or possibly Chuck for having three similar looking blondes in the opening scene. Was convinced they were fraternal triplets until I was told otherwise and knew 2 would die since I couldn't tell them apart easily. 

All right, Lillith falling and stabbing herself with antlers was hilarious. It reminded me of Claire from Heroes. 

50 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

It was in the glove box.

This makes it so much stupider. The trunk at least has wards of some kind. 

[Shannonsspirit]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, with all this talk about meta fiction and being self aware and authors writing depressing stories in the mindset of "if its dark, it must be good!" no matter how bad it actually and authors dealing with their creations, it makes me think of Grant Morrison's famous run on the comic book Animal Man, which has some of the most though provoking and heartfelt meta fiction that I ever read, and its almost what I think they are angling for here, just that they're not doing it very well. 

Spoilers for how his run ends, and its really great and I recommend it to everyone. 

  Hide contents

In the beginning of the comic, its a somewhat usual comic book story, and then things start to get more and more surreal, with the main character meeting characters that has been deleted from cannon, seeing his fun action comic turning increasingly dark and violent, including the death of his whole family, and after many trails and tribulations, he meets up with his own author, Grant Morrison himself (or at least a drawn version of him) where he calls Grant out on how he and writers like him treat their characters like garbage and kill them for cheap pathos, and while its just a story to them, its their real lives and they have real feelings. While Grant admits that this whole conversation is happening because he wrote it like this, it does get him thinking, and he feels remorse for his killing off of characters and denying his hero a happy ending for the sake of drama, and he ends up writing his heroes family back to life, because "even fictional characters deserve kindness." 

So, it's plagiarism, at best?

[SueB]

I’d vote for warded box inside glove compartment or trunk. Loose inside trunk they may accidentally pick it up thinking it was a regular gun and kill themselves shooting a monster. 

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

I’d vote for warded box inside glove compartment or trunk. Loose inside trunk they may accidentally pick it up thinking it was a regular gun and kill themselves shooting a monster. 

I dunno, even if the bunker has a revolving door at times, it's still supposed to be the safest place on Earth. At least there are myriad different rooms and a friggin dungeon to hide it in. Literally anyone could've taken it out of the glove box,  including a cop on a routine traffic stop. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

What's next... soulless Sam. Vampire Dean. Post-Purgatory Dean. DEAN!Michael. Regular MoC Dean.

Ooh I want to see Soulless Sam vs MOC Dean! That would be an interesting fight 😮

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I think Lilith may be the first of many original Apocalypse figures popping up. He is clearly reworking that storyline as The End. He let Dean change things and now he's changed his mind.

I can believe this especially

Spoiler

since we know that Adam is going to appear this season.

[trudysmom]

21 hours ago, patty1h said:

Is there any reason for me to watch - even a small bit of goodness:  a funny moment, a Winchester "beauty shot", good fight scene, compelling brotherly moment or will I be wishing I had that hour back at the end?

Yeah, give a watch, maybe I'm just to darn picky.  Dean looked great, as always, Sam was...Sam. 

[Casseiopeia]

So this was an interesting shot. Even the way they are sitting they look like marionettes in a puppet show.

An interesting choice given Jensens outspoken remarks about the "marionette" fight.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Casseiopeia

[Cambion]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

So this was an interesting shot. Even the way they are sitting they look like marionettes in a puppet show.

An interesting choice given Jensens outspoken remarks about the "marionette" fight.

You know, this shot was one of the things I think might be foreshadowing.  They look like actors on a stage with curtains poised to close on them.  The foreshadow to the end being that there is no real resolution and they are simply defeated because there is no resolution.  I dunno.  I just felt like the curtains framing the tableau was purposefully significant.  I know, I know, I'm probably giving the writers too much credit, or, truly in this case, giving Dick too much credit as the director.  But I wouldn't put it past him to be trying to throw a hint out to the fans.

Not that I think that is what's going to happen.  I just still think there are attempts at misdirection (however clumsy some of them are) being made since speculation about how it will all end is obviously the hottest topic re: SPN right now.  

[Demian]

On 11/14/2019 at 11:03 PM, ahrtee said:

I do feel obliged to point out (sorry!) that Black Forest, Colorado is not actually a forest--at least, not a wilderness area.  It's a wooded community a little north of Colorado Springs (with a lot fewer trees since the forest fire a few years ago); and no one would camp there unless it's in someone's back yard (or back of a lot where the horses are kept).

Don't apologize.  I remember there was a season premiere set high upon the supposed Supernatural bluffs overlooking downtown Chicago.

This show is so stupid.