S15.E04: Atomic Monsters

[Bergamot]

9 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

One confusion is why both Winchesters keep saying God is gone and they are free. I mean God zapped out but why do they think he's not still in charge? Not sure how that came to be their thinking. 

9 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

They are taking this from the other worlds/drafts like Apocalypse-world where Chuck apparently did just abandon them and left them to themselves. Apocalypse world still trucked on, despite Chuck quitting to write for it. 

And in fairness, it looks like that`s exactly what he wanted to do here but he can`t due to the bullet wound. He tried to weasel a ride with Amara but she gave him the finger. 

Yes, this is what I thought too. I was thinking that this point in time,  Chuck, although still possessing God powers, can no longer do "anything", even though he told Becky he could. ("Oh, Becky. I can do anything.") Because of how he is damaged, he can't simply move on to another world.

And I could be wrong, because the show hasn't been clear about it, but I don't think he can even write a script for Dean and Sam right now. When he was writing his first rough draft for Becky, the one she thought was not very original, I didn't think that he was writing the story of this episode. For one thing, he did not sit down at Becky's computer and start writing until the story of the episode was well underway. For another, one of her critiques was about the villain's lame monologue delivered while Dean and Sam are tied up, and that didn't happen.

But most of all, if Chuck could just sit down and write something to happen to Dean and Sam, why would he be moping about having a "falling out" with the Winchesters? Why would he even care what the Winchesters thought of him? Why wouldn't he just write a different story to happen to them to cheer himself up? I don't think he can right now. Although we now see that he does have an idea for how he would like this season to end. I think that maybe he just doesn't have the power right now to make it happen.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Bergamot

[ahrtee]

15 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

"We wanted to remind viewers about the tragic nature of life." or "we are all about subverting expectations!" or the ultimate in smug dickery "We didnt give fans what they wanted, we gave them what they needed." You know what we needed? We needed a good story, not some bullshit from show runners who think that "dark and depressing" always means artistically brilliant!*

Does anyone here remember the movie Sullivan's Travels?  A brilliant director of light comedies wants to make a serious, depressing social commentary film because he wanted to be taken seriously.  (The movie is from 1941 and the film he wants to make is about the Depression.)  So that "dark and depressing is artistically brilliant" trope is well-entrenched, even though that movie poked it full of holes nearly 80 years ago. 😊 (BTW, if you haven't seen the movie, go watch it now!  https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sullivans_travels )

[Bergamot]

I think one reason that this episode did not work for me as well as it did for some was that I felt the show wanted me to sympathize at the end with Billy's parents, and I didn't. I did feel for Billy himself; it was brave of him to admit that he could not control his bloodlust, and to offer himself to be killed before he could hurt anyone else.

But I did not like at all the way that the parents were presented as people to be sympathized with -- and even admired? -- for what they did. The writer of the episode made this very clear by having Sam compare himself and Dean to the father, and say that they would have done the same thing for Jack. (I would like to think that what they meant here was that they would die for someone they loved. Which is not exactly a big revelation.)

Anyway, to die for your child? That's something I could understand. But to kill innocent people for them? When the father was telling Dean that only someone with children would understand what he did, I was thinking, how about seeing how the parents of the dead girl feel about that?

I thought that the parents were as monstrous, in their own way, as their son. They knew that their son had killed the first cheerleader, and chopped up her dead body to cover up his crime. They kidnapped an innocent girl and were draining her of her blood in order to feed him. When they were found out, the mother was ready to kill the Winchesters in order to cover up what was going on. And in the midst of all this, they were still totally focused on getting their son into Yale, as if that goal made this all okay. Sure, just wash the blood off your hands, have another glass of wine, and get back to doing whatever it takes to get your son into an Ivy League school.

But gee, what else were they, as devoted parents, supposed to do? I don't know, but not what they did. Sorry, but this part of the story bugged me, especially because the writer made a point of the comparison to Sam and Dean.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Bergamot said:

When they were found out, the mother was ready to kill the Winchesters in order to cover up what was going on.

And quite coldly ready to plant their bodies under the peonies.

This was the only reason I thought Chuck was writing this story - it was that bad. Heh.

[Commando Cody]

When I saw the Becky flashbacks in the beginning, I was thinking why? Why would you bring Becky back?  She was awful.  Then they bring her back. She has her life together and she seems almost normal.  Normal as far as superfans go anyway.  This is when they kill her?  I wanted her dead since her first episode.  

I've been trying to figure out Becky's time line.  The last time we saw her, was season 7.  Her kids - even though we only heard their voices, sounded way too old for 5 - 7 year olds.  Chuck just evaporated them. Was this all in Chuck's head and he didn't like his imagining of Becky's life?  At least we didn't have a s Sam/Becky reunion.  

Otherwise, this was the best episode of the season, so far. The opening scene was great.  I knew it was a dream.  I just didn't expect it to be Sam's dream. 

[Shannonsspirit]

4 hours ago, Cambion said:

Yeah.  Some people are.

https://variety.com/2019/tv/features/supernatural-season-15-jensen-ackles-directing-interview-atomic-monsters-1203394220/

Wow, he actually says, "save it for the reboot."

Edited November 8, 2019 by Shannonsspirit
Typo

[Aeryn13]

6 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Wow, he actually says, "save it for the reboot."

I think that was tongue in cheek since everything is getting rebooted now.

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think that was tongue in cheek since everything is getting rebooted now.

Me too.

[Shannonsspirit]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think that was tongue in cheek since everything is getting rebooted now.

Oh. Probably. I was combining that comment with another article where Jensen says he is open to talks. My take has been that cast and crew want away from Dabb; the only way to do it is to let Dabb's contract run out with the end of the show, then restart it.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just gonna say it: a big part of why this episode worked so well for me was that we didn't have to deal with the whiney angel or the dead Nougat baby (beyond the mention of his name). I miss the days of Dean and Sam against the world, when the outside characters added to their story, not the other way around.

[Aeryn13]

2 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Oh. Probably. I was combining that comment with another article where Jensen says he is open to talks. My take has been that cast and crew want away from Dabb; the only way to do it is to let Dabb's contract run out with the end of the show, then restart it.

I think he is saying to never say no so if someone came asking 10 years down the line, he wouldn't categorically say no to it now. But at this point the show is ending.

[Shannonsspirit]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think he is saying to never say no so if someone came asking 10 years down the line, he wouldn't categorically say no to it now. But at this point the show is ending.

Yes, of course. Though the one asking was Mark Pedowitz. As there does seem to be a lot of consternation, it leads me to wonder. I'm sure it's just the talk.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Shannonsspirit

[Shannonsspirit]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Definitely the best episode of the season, Jenson did a great job directing, especially considering it was a decently complex episode, with the narrator and the meta stuff. Not reaching the heights of previous seasons, but it was still a solidly good episode, with sadness, great acting from Jared, Jenson, and even the guest actors, comedy, and the meta was both fun and interesting. 

I am not a huge Becky fan, but I liked her this week. I am glad that she admitted what she did to Sam was horrible (that was a messed up episode!) and that she has grown up while not abandoning her fangirl ways. I think it was a nice way to touch on fandom in the last season, especially those of us who have kind of grown up with the show, with Becky moving on from being obsessed and has grown up, gotten a fulfilling and happy life outside of fandom, but is still engaging in fan life, even making money doing it! Chuck disappearing her and her poor family was cold as fuck, where did they go?! He said they weren't dead, so I guess I cant technically add Becky to supporting and reoccurring characters killed off this season...yet.

So Chuck wrote an ending that is really dark and depressing, but was apparently horrible, which actually makes me just slightly more optimistic about the series finale, that it wont just be some kind of nihilistic misery fest where Dabb just sets the franchise on fire in a temper tantrum because none of his spin-offs worked and ran off. I admit I did like that it seemed like a take down of pain in the ass show runners who write these horribly dark series and season finales where beloved characters are horribly and pointlessly killed off, or write these "shocking twists" that are only shocking because they make no fucking sense. The "but you felt something, thats good!" line is a classic from these kinds of hacks, who will follow up their massive middle finger to the fans with smug interviews about how "We made you feel something, and thats important!" or "We wanted to remind viewers about the tragic nature of life." or "we are all about subverting expectations!" or the ultimate in smug dickery "We didnt give fans what they wanted, we gave them what they needed." You know what we needed? We needed a good story, not some bullshit from show runners who think that "dark and depressing" always means artistically brilliant!*

The COTW was quite good, I didnt see it being the son coming even though I probably should have. The poor vampire kid, that was just horribly heartbreaking, especially as he asked Sam and Dean to "go on a ride" both out of guilt for killing his girlfriend and his parents kidnapping the other girl, and because he didnt want to hurt anyone else because he cant control his vampire urges. I guess that Chuck was directly writing this story, and wanted it to be a sad ending, or maybe Sam and Dean could have gotten him to Garth or someone and helped him. I mean, its not like we have never met vampires that dont kill people, even if its pretty rare and tends to still end pretty badly because...thats just kind of how this universe is. The downer ending did fit in well with Sam and Dean talking about how much their job sucks and they have to make the hard choices. They did save that girl and anyone else that might have been killed, but instead of fighting some evil murdering monster, they had to basically mercy kill a nice teenage boy who was a victim of something he didnt understand, and instead of some epic fight, they had to behead a crying kid begging to be killed, which I cant imagine makes anyone feel like a hero, even if its whats for the best.

Hi Benny! Nice briefly seeing you again! 

So they really are going hard on Chuck being all "muhahah" evil all of the time now. I still suspect that he might not really be god, or at least the original god, and they will need to find the real one, or at least dethrone this one. Or maybe this will end with the guys deciding that they didnt need any kind of god and going full free will with everything, even though that does raise questions about how this universe will still function, but I dont know. 

*Not that I am bitter or anything about any certain show...*

I loved this episode right up until Chuck did his evil spin. Chuck, who invented souls to balance freewill with conscience, compassion, empathy and remorse is evil? It pulled me out. Sam and Dean having their talk, as Sam is despondent while Dean hopeful now that Chuck is gone, was undermined by the wink to the audience that he is not gone. Pulled out again. The episode was great. That I was aware that I was watching, because of this meta writer crap, was not great.

You are not alone in your bitterness.

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/7/2019 at 9:15 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Jensen is a really good director. Perez is not a really good writer. That said, it was the best episode of the four so far, IMO.

The opening scene was awesome. I understand Jensen's thought about having that little Benny cameo. Somebody had to die, so why not give us a chance to see Benny again? Loved it. The fight was pretty great.

I'm sorry, but mopey, depressed Sam doesn't work for me, especially when they frame it as being all noble and brave, when they do nothing but say Dean is weak and suicidal when it's him. Whatever.

Becky was surprisingly less annoying than expected. Chuck disappearing her family was cruel. The writer-as-God is so damn transparent it's laughable. For sure they are setting up Sam sacrificing himself. Swan Song 2.0 is in the cards, no doubt.

Maybe Dean!Michael will beat the crap out of him and Amara will heal him and Amara and Dean!Michael will disappear together somewhere leaving Sam alone.

[ILoveReading]

I'm not sure how I felt about this one.

The good:

Jensen's directing.  It was his strongest outing yet.  That opening scene could have been straight out of any big budget action movie and Jensen could be an action star.  Watching the stunt on screen that we saw him working on with Rob Hayter was just all kinds of hot. 

Seeing Benny again.  Love that Jensen made the effort to get him and that Ty agreed to do it.  Love that Benny is still loyal to the end and that he was always there for Dean.

That there was no mention of Cas.  I didn't not want to see Dean all mopey and weepy because Cas left.  He chose to walk away. 

That Dean, for now seems to want to keep saving people, hunting things.

Jensen's acting was always top notch. 

The Bad:

Deans' drinking probably won't be addressed.  It was just Dean being Dean.

That the show is setting up Sam needs to himself/purpose  veriosn 59308

The hunt itself felt mostly like Dean hanging back while Sam did everything.  

The BM.  So much for Sam "believing in Us"  He says all the right words and issues the right platititudes but I don't get much an impression he really believes in Dean.

The case itself.  @Bergamot summed up my problem with it better than I ever could.

The show sweeping Mary's death under the rug for both Sam and Dean to put Jack back on his pedestal.  If the ep wanted to draw parallels they could have had Sam and Dean reference the things they did for each other.

So I not sure if I liked this or not.

The Ugly

Dean mostly just being the wind beneath Sams' wings.

That the purpose of bring back past characters just to kill them off/screw them over.  It seems to be the norm for this season.

Edited November 9, 2019 by ILoveReading

[foxfreakinmulder]

58 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

That opening scene could have been straight out of any big budget action movie and Jensen could be an action star. 

I was thinking the same thing about the opening scene. And how hot scruffy Jensen looked! Scruffy Jensen needs to be in Western playing a Sherriff looking for the bad guys. I'd watched that all day long :-)

Heartbreaking that they had to chop off that kids head especially since they didn't see him vamp out, he just looked like a nice kid. Jensen's music they played with that scene was perfect.

I thought that was a strange line too, in the car when Sam said they would've done the same thing for Jack.

Why do the writers hate God so much!

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

Why do the writers hate God so much!

Because they prayed for a spinoff and didn't get it?

[PAForrest]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The show sweeping Mary's death under the rug for both Sam and Dean to put Jack back on his pedestal.  If the ep wanted to draw parallels they could have had Sam and Dean reference the things they did for each other.

I watched this one again - and the teaser like 20 times (guuuuuh!!!!) - and caught a mistake I made. I have no idea why after watching it the first time I thought Sam had mentioned Mary as one of the deaths they've recently endured, but again it was just Dean.

But what was annoying is that even when Dean mentioned her this time, it was a passing reference like she was any other random death, and she comes AFTER Jack - the one who murdered her - who is now first on the list to cry over. So they might as well be naming Ted Bundy as someone they're missing, and everyone is conveniently forgetting that Dean wanted Jack dead and did try to kill him as recently as a week or two ago.

I mean, come on, I hated Mary as much or more than anyone - she was nine kinds of horrible. But Dean isn't me, and as a character he's still supposed to have loved her more than almost anyone in his life. But apparently not anymore.

So yes, the vamp kid was supposed to parallel the Nougat, the woobification of St. Nougat is in full swing, and Dean and Sam are back to believing they gave birth to him. Get me a bucket.

8 hours ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

Why do the writers hate God so much!

Part of it may be Dabb hating on organized religion, and this is his commentary about it. But it may be more simple than that. Remember, Chuck = Kripke, and Dabb, Berens, B-L et. al. are tap-dancing fast and furiously to retcon if not entirely erase (ala Becky?) everything about Kripke's version of Supernatural before the last frame airs. So naturally that makes the original creator the ultimate bad guy.

Edited November 9, 2019 by PAForrest
Edit for all episodes references

[ILoveReading]

17 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

But what was annoying is that even when Dean mentioned her this time, it was a passing reference like she was any other random death, and she comes AFTER Jack - the one who murdered her - who is now first on the list to cry over. So they might as well be naming Ted Bundy as someone they're missing, and everyone is conveniently forgetting that Dean wanted Jack dead and did try to kill him.

Will responds in all episodes thread.

[bethy]

I, too, enjoyed this episode more than any others so far this season. Loved, loved, loved action Dean at the beginning and seeing Benny again. 

Sad-sack Sam is exhausting to me. I wonder if Jared is as bored with that as I am. He at least displayed some charisma as EvilSam. His portrayal of RegularSam is so wet-dishraggy to me these days. I did enjoy Dean's willingness to prank Sam about the bacon. He's willing to be sympathetic, but also still willing to goose his brother when he gets a chance. 

I'm thankful that they managed to restrain themselves from having Dean be inappropriate and leer over the teenaged cheerleaders. Of course they had to have him mention fetishes *eyeroll*, but it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

Randomly I wondered about all the eating they had Dean do in this episode - bacon, pretzels, a hotdog. 

And, yeah, I guess Dean and Sam ended up being as glad to get rid of Mary as I was given how little her murder seems to be playing into their emotional states these days. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by bethy

[Bobcatkitten]

Upon rewatch I decided they are not sweeping Dean's feelings under the rug - he is just showing them differently than Sam. He is day-drinking at a crime scene and eating constantly. Those are his coping mechanisms. 

[Aeryn13]

6 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Upon rewatch I decided they are not sweeping Dean's feelings under the rug - he is just showing them differently than Sam. He is day-drinking at a crime scene and eating constantly. Those are his coping mechanisms. 

I don't think those are meant to signify anything. The eating is a shtick at this point and the drinking isn't acknowledged either. In the game of depression hot potato usually only one brother has it at the time and somehow Sam worked himself into a sudden tiff.

[Pondlass1]

Dean’s an admitted functioning alcoholic. I wonder if they’ll rein back on the drinking in light of Jared’s arrest. It was only season 7 that highlighted drinking and driving. Other than that there’s a lot of alcohol in this series with no real consequence (Not that I have an issue ... if I lived in the Winchester’s world I’d drink like a fish too) but tv is getting very very PC.  

Dean and his junk food is overblown and overdone now. But I think he gets a cavity in a future episode? 

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Dean’s an admitted functioning alcoholic. I wonder if they’ll rein back on the drinking in light of Jared’s arrest. It was only season 7 that highlighted drinking and driving. Other than that there’s a lot of alcohol in this series with no real consequence (Not that I have an issue ... if I lived in the Winchester’s world I’d drink like a fish too) but tv is getting very very PC.  

Dean and his junk food is overblown and overdone now. But I think he gets a cavity in a future episode? 

I think the drinking is just Dean being Dean.   Dean has been carrying it on and off since season 2.  Even in s7 it was just dropped after a time.  So I really don't think it means anything. 

[Bobcatkitten]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think the drinking is just Dean being Dean.   Dean has been carrying it on and off since season 2.  Even in s7 it was just dropped after a time.  So I really don't think it means anything. 

Dean drinking is not new. But at a crime scene in the middle of the day? Even for him that's a bit much. 

[BlueSapphire]

I was just bored senseless throughout this whole episode.  I had to mute the Chuck and Becky scenes because I had no interest in either one of them.  I swear their first scene was like 10 minutes long.  The opening scene was cool and all, but Benny can go die in a fire for all I care and I hope that’s the last time I see his annoying face.  Where’s Tim O. when you need him?  (That was rhetorical.  I know he’s guesting elsewhere.)  The song had a nice bluesy feel; the opening was similar to “House of the Rising Sun”, which is an awesome song.  Other than that, I got nothing.  I just can’t wrap my head around why the showrunner thinks I should be entertained by this.  Jensen can only do so much as the director, so no blame there.

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Bobcatkitten said:

Dean drinking is not new. But at a crime scene in the middle of the day? Even for him that's a bit much. 

I remember Jensen talking about this at a con.   He said its just part of the character.  So I doubt it will ever be addressed or really brought up.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

Sad-sack Sam is exhausting to me. I wonder if Jared is as bored with that as I am. He at least displayed some charisma as EvilSam. His portrayal of RegularSam is so wet-dishraggy to me these days. 

Chuck is equally as sad-sack and wet-dishraggy now; depressed and turning to his sibling to help ...

Hey!  What if the "bond" between him and Sam goes both ways and beyond just "visions", and he's been infected with Sam's bad moods?

[Shannonsspirit]

I'm not sure I understand the criticisms of Sam's depression. For both Sam and Dean a good day is when no one dies and they get the monster before it gets them. That's a hell of a life. They have lost their Mom, and yes, Jack, Rowena, Ketch within days and are faced with the (absurd and I despise it) understanding that God is playing with their lives. They were beset upon by the opening of Hell and busy closing it.

Then, trying to focus on a routine case, Dean recalls to mind that Sam wanted this simple life. Yet, it is not so simple. Disturbed self-centered parents are committing horrible acts to feed their vampire son, while putting his chance to go to Yale above the memorial of one of his victims...his girlfriend. All that culminates in them having to kill the boy, at his request.

If Sam wants to lament, after all that, while Dean masks his pain with alcohol, they should.

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I'm not sure I understand the criticisms of Sam's depression. For both Sam and Dean a good day is when no one dies and they get the monster before it gets them. That's a hell of a life. They have lost their Mom, and yes, Jack, Rowena, Ketch within days and are faced with the (absurd and I despise it) understanding that God is playing with their lives. They were beset upon by the opening of Hell and busy closing it.

Then, trying to focus on a routine case, Dean recalls to mind that Sam wanted this simple life. Yet, it is not so simple. Disturbed self-centered parents are committing horrible acts to feed their vampire son, while putting his chance to go to Yale above the memorial of one of his victims...his girlfriend. All that culminates in them having to kill the boy, at his request.

If Sam wants to lament, after all that, while Dean masks his pain with alcohol, they should.

The problem is, he was cheerleading the team literally days before, anticipating the win and freedom. The turnaround after actually winning, is not consistent, especially when it's Rowena's 'death' that seems to have precipitated it. Jack and Mary were already 'dead' before that little lecture speech to Dean about how they could be free. The only 'cost' to that win was Rowena. So for Sam to suddenly be depressed, going all the way back to Jessica, is jut not consistent with this season, never mind all the speechifying he's done over the last few years about embracing the life, and being okay with it, and how Dean should have the faith in them that he does. It's shit writing.

Edited November 9, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Shannonsspirit]

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The problem is, he was cheerleading the team literally days before, anticipating the win and freedom. The turnaround after actually winning, is not consistent, especially when it's Rowena's 'death' that seems to have precipitated it. Jack and Mary were already 'dead' before that little lecture speech to Dean about how they could be free. The only 'cost' to that win was Rowena. So for Sam to suddenly be depressed, going all the way back to Jessica, is jut not consistent with this season, never mind all the speechifying he's done over the last few years about embracing the life, and being okay with it, and how Dean should have the faith in them that he does. It's shit writing.

Oh, well, the writing, of course. I just thought I would go back inside the show, for a moment, and consider the characters. I see it as a delayed reaction combined with the reality that sometimes what they have to witness and do while saving the world is equally morally repugnant. At some point it all catches up. The last drop of what he has to swallow is too much; so everything comes up and out. Like when you stub your toe or can't find your keys. Where does your mind go in those moments? Especially following tragedy or injustice that you suppressed, because you have work to do.

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Chuck is equally as sad-sack and wet-dishraggy now; depressed and turning to his sibling to help ...

Hey!  What if the "bond" between him and Sam goes both ways and beyond just "visions", and he's been infected with Sam's bad moods?

I am just happy that Dean has the bond with the cool, dark older sibling who was misunderstood and is so much better looking than her younger, needy whiny brother who bitches all of the time.

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I am just happy that Dean has the bond with the cool, dark older sibling who was misunderstood and is so much better looking than her younger, needy whiny brother who bitches all of the time.

Spoiler

But they've already pretty much canceled Dean's importance to Amara, and foreshadowed that connection being transferred to Sam.

1 hour ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Oh, well, the writing, of course. I just thought I would go back inside the show, for a moment, and consider the characters. I see it as a delayed reaction combined with the reality that sometimes what they have to witness and do while saving the world is equally morally repugnant. At some point it all catches up. The last drop of what he has to swallow is too much; so everything comes up and out. Like when you stub your toe or can't find your keys. Where does your mind go in those moments? Especially following tragedy or injustice that you suppressed, because you have work to do.

Fair enough, and I would agree, if that last straw was Mary's death. But the whitewashing of Jack, him being first on the list of reasons why... mourning him as they would a child, or Rowena as they would, say, Bobby, is not realistic or organic enough to make me feel Sam's pain. It just comes across as completely manufactured and Sam-identity-crisis 8.4.298

Edited November 9, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

  Hide contents

But they've already pretty much canceled Dean's importance to Amara, and foreshadowed that connection being transferred to Sam.

Fair enough, and I would agree, if that last straw was Mary's death. But the whitewashing of Jack, him being first on the list of reasons why... mourning him as they would a child, or Rowena as they would, say, Bobby, is not realistic or organic enough to make me feel Sam's pain. It just comes across as completely manufactured and Sam-identity-crisis 8.4.298

IDK. Jared saying something in a con this early doesn't mean much imo . . . That's all it is right?  He is just talking out loud without saying specifics.  Just looking at what they have set up suggests that Sam and Amara would be diametrically opposed. Sam appears to be going dark as in demonic/devil dark. Amara is being set up as God's actual good counterpoint despite being known as the Darkness. She might step in to help. . . Yes.

If we get season 5 2.0 we can expect SAMMYgod or Sam with some of Chuck's power which restores Azazel's demon blood in Sam big time. At least this is what I think is happening based on what we have seen. Opposing him has to eventually be Dean!Michael which fulfills Billie's seemingly forgotten prophecy and Michael's long forgotten purpose in the first Apocalypse. It won't play out the same because the board has changed. Sam doesn't need Lucifer and this time maybe he won't need Dean either. 

Remember Becky's horror at Chuck's rewrite. What's more horrible than Sam not needing Dean and Dean not being able to save Sam. So we get to Stull and Dean!Michael beats Sam to a pulp. Maybe then Amara steps in and helps. Maybe she resurrects him and helps him stop Dean!Michael the only way it can be done. Amara willing. Let's hope it doesn't involve a green army man. She will probably resurrect Mary. I would and John. It's how the show started. 

[Shannonsspirit]

35 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

  Reveal spoiler

But they've already pretty much canceled Dean's importance to Amara, and foreshadowed that connection being transferred to Sam.

Fair enough, and I would agree, if that last straw was Mary's death. But the whitewashing of Jack, him being first on the list of reasons why... mourning him as they would a child, or Rowena as they would, say, Bobby, is not realistic or organic enough to make me feel Sam's pain. It just comes across as completely manufactured and Sam-identity-crisis 8.4.298

I understand. My dismay with Moriah and the completely unimaginative season 14 with its endless focus on Jack, almost to the exclusion of Sam and Dean, is what drove me to a forum.

It's that I have been so pulled out of the show, I thought it would be nice to look at the character, rather than the writing.

I miss the show. I liked it.

[catrox14]

I loved the opening sequence. And Benny! 😢

Unfortunately for me, that is where my most of my enjoyment of the episode remained, save a few other moments. I dont think it was a well written episode and the boys were caricatures primarily. Jensen did a good job though.

Just one episode ago Dean had a falling out with Cas because of Mary's death and now he was only talking about Jack and Rowena deaths because of Sam's grief and no mention of a lot of time passing to account for the change.  And  Sam was previously gung ho, that things will go their  way before he killed Rowena, so what gives?

Well, to me, Sams reaction to Rowena death, IMO, has more to do with Sam's own fears about his future now that one prophecy was fulfilled with him killing Rowena (assuming she stays dead), and he dreamed he was on demon blood and  killed Dean. And despite my opinion that both Sam and Dean  were bullet point characters, I found that to be in line with Sam's tendency to relate these kinds of things to himself directly.

I'm just gonna watch that opening sequence on loop for a very long time.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Shannonsspirit said:

It's that I have been so pulled out of the show, I thought it would be nice to look at the character, rather than the writing.

Your original post stated that you didn't understand the criticism of Sam's depression. Mine was to explain why I didn't accept that he would be so depressed given the writing of his character in the prior three episodes and what he offered as the reasons for how he was feeling now.

Maybe it was affected by this episode filming first even though it aired 4th. Even though the scripts were already written, maybe things didn't make it to the screen in 1 - 3 that might have made his state of mind make more sense.

Edited November 10, 2019 by gonzosgirrl
Clarification

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It just comes across as completely manufactured and Sam-identity-crisis 8.4.298

🤣🤣🤣

[Shannonsspirit]

45 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Your original post stated that you didn't understand the criticism of Sam's depression. Mine was to explain why I didn't accept that he would be so depressed given the writing of his character in the prior three episodes and what he offered as the reasons for how he was feeling now.

Maybe it was affected by this episode filming first even though it aired 4th. Even though the scripts were already written, maybe things didn't make it to the screen that might have made his state of mind make more sense.

That is a very good point!

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/9/2019 at 7:25 AM, PAForrest said:

I watched this one again - and the teaser like 20 times (guuuuuh!!!!) - and caught a mistake I made. I have no idea why after watching it the first time I thought Sam had mentioned Mary as one of the deaths they've recently endured, but again it was just Dean.

But what was annoying is that even when Dean mentioned her this time, it was a passing reference like she was any other random death, and she comes AFTER Jack - the one who murdered her - who is now first on the list to cry over. So they might as well be naming Ted Bundy as someone they're missing, and everyone is conveniently forgetting that Dean wanted Jack dead and did try to kill him as recently as a week or two ago.

I mean, come on, I hated Mary as much or more than anyone - she was nine kinds of horrible. But Dean isn't me, and as a character he's still supposed to have loved her more than almost anyone in his life. But apparently not anymore.

So yes, the vamp kid was supposed to parallel the Nougat, the woobification of St. Nougat is in full swing, and Dean and Sam are back to believing they gave birth to him. Get me a bucket.

Part of it may be Dabb hating on organized religion, and this is his commentary about it. But it may be more simple than that. Remember, Chuck = Kripke, and Dabb, Berens, B-L et. al. are tap-dancing fast and furiously to retcon if not entirely erase (ala Becky?) everything about Kripke's version of Supernatural before the last frame airs. So naturally that makes the original creator the ultimate bad guy.

Are they? I think they are literally rewinding things back to the first mytharc as if Chuck never allowed Dean to change the story. That means Sam is corrupted and Dean can't save him. Ergo Dean says yes to Michael and they fight. Because there is no Ruby and Lilith AND Sam is powered by GODpower via his shoulder he does not need Lucifer so things are a bit different. The GODpower may have activated Azazal's blood in him and his latent demonic powers. His dream vision seemed to be a return of his old powers and it appeared to conflate the Boy King of Hell prophecy with The End. It is a reworking based on the differences in the board but not a tossing of Kripke by any means and it means Billie's Books prophecy is still in play too because burning this world was Michael's plan all along.

The only question is will Dean be so despondent because of Sam and Chuck he truly loses his will to fight ad he simply plays his part or will he fight alone and build an A team (Benny!).

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/9/2019 at 10:14 AM, Bobcatkitten said:

Upon rewatch I decided they are not sweeping Dean's feelings under the rug - he is just showing them differently than Sam. He is day-drinking at a crime scene and eating constantly. Those are his coping mechanisms. 

Remember all of the eating when he was not killing with the MoC. It was almost comical.

[KayCordingly]

On 11/9/2019 at 1:23 PM, Shannonsspirit said:

I'm not sure I understand the criticisms of Sam's depression...

...If Sam wants to lament, after all that, while Dean masks his pain with alcohol, they should.

Yes, thank you! I totally get it. My wife and I are the same way. we are there for each other when one of us falters. If life is getting me down, she's the one who says "everything's going to be okay". Maybe the following week she's going through something difficult, so I'm the one to say it to her. So this is one thing that I've appreciated about this season; the boys seems to be focused on being there for each other, leaning on each other. I like it so much better than the standard "one of the brothers is keeping a secret and lying to the other" trope.

[Shannonsspirit]

27 minutes ago, KayCordingly said:

Yes, thank you! I totally get it. My wife and I are the same way. we are there for each other when one of us falters. If life is getting me down, she's the one who says "everything's going to be okay". Maybe the following week she's going through something difficult, so I'm the one to say it to her. So this is one thing that I've appreciated about this season; the boys seems to be focused on being there for each other, leaning on each other. I like it so much better than the standard "one of the brothers is keeping a secret and lying to the other" trope.

Lovely to hear of your beautifully supportive and healthy marriage.

[ILoveReading]

42 minutes ago, KayCordingly said:

I like it so much better than the standard "one of the brothers is keeping a secret and lying to the other" trope.

This is what's happening.  Sam is keeping secrets from Dean and lying about being fine.  If he told Dean about his dreams or visions or whatever they are then I could see it being mutal, but 15 years in its still like it was in season 1. 

[KayCordingly]

35 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is what's happening.  Sam is keeping secrets from Dean and lying about being fine.  If he told Dean about his dreams or visions or whatever they are then I could see it being mutal, but 15 years in its still like it was in season 1. 

Well, granted I've only watched it once, but Dean seemed to know about the nightmares because he figured out that's what was bothering Sam at the beginning of the episode.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, KayCordingly said:

Well, granted I've only watched it once, but Dean seemed to know about the nightmares because he figured out that's what was bothering Sam at the beginning of the episode.

He knows Sam and his tells.  He called Sam out.  Sam didn't really come clean and certainly not with the nature of the nightmares.

[KayCordingly]

59 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Lovely to hear of your beautifully supportive and healthy marriage.

Thank you 😊

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

He knows Sam and his tells.  He called Sam out.  Sam didn't really come clean and certainly not with the nature of the nightmares.

I REALLY hope it doesn't go in that direction, but... *SIGH* it probably will. I'm probably a fool for thinking that the brothers' relationship is developing a healthy dynamic.

Edited November 11, 2019 by KayCordingly

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, KayCordingly said:

Well, granted I've only watched it once, but Dean seemed to know about the nightmares because he figured out that's what was bothering Sam at the beginning of the episode.

There was nothing to indicate that Dean knew about Sam's nightmare.  It seemed more or less clear to me that Sam had that dream the night before the morning Dean offers him the bacon.  So no, I don't think Dean had any idea that Sam is having a specific nightmare/vision about being Demon Blood Sam and killing Dean, possibly in the future or what. 

So that's a big thing Sam is holding out on Dean that would actually help Dean help Sam. 

[annspal]

Quote

BECKY

No. You can’t.

CHUCK

I did.

BECKY

Y… this is just an ending.

CHUCK

Yeah. I don’t know how I’m gonna get there, but I know where I’m goin’.

BECKY

B-But it’s so…dark.

CHUCK

But great, right? I can see it now… “Supernatural: The End”. And the cover is just a gravestone that says “Winchester”. The fans are gonna love it. Well?

BECKY

It’s awful! Horrible. It’s hopeless.

[BECKY gets up from the chair and walks around the desk to CHUCK.]

BECKY

You can’t do this to the fans. What you did to Dean? What you did to Sam?

CHUCK

There, see? It’s making you feel something. That’s good, right?

BECKY

No!

Quote

DEAN

What you did to them… what you did to Bobby… to Jody…

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/15.04_Atomic_Monsters_(transcript)  with my bolding

Don't Becky's reactions to Chuck's rewrite sum up Sam's beginning-of-the-episode nightmare? I'm feeling all chicken-and-egg about these bookends -- especially with Dream!Dean and Becky having such similar lines. 

[S Cook Productions]

On 11/7/2019 at 10:09 PM, ahrtee said:

I wonder why nobody remembers Garth and his family any more?  I know the kid was fresh-made and doesn't have the control, but he also doesn't want to be a monster and surely the vegetarian vamps would be able to help him if Sam and Dean sent him there? 

I know, Chuck was writing it and he wanted a dark ending.  

Isn’t Garth still in their trunk? Lol.