S15.E04: Atomic Monsters

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

Isn’t Garth still in their trunk? Lol. 

Do werewolves and vampires generally help each other?

[S Cook Productions]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Do werewolves and vampires generally help each other?

Not in Twilight. 😉

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Do werewolves and vampires generally help each other?

Onlly Michael's supermonsters but that's a done deal. 

[ahrtee]

42 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Do werewolves and vampires generally help each other?

Ah, but Garth likes everybody! (Everything?)

Edited November 11, 2019 by ahrtee

[starfishka]

I really like(d) this one. That opening scene was epic. Wish it was longer (and wish the BM scene was shorter). I think Jensen needed a scene like this after the Michael-Lucifer fight fiasco (hope that scene doesn't bother him that much anymore). More power to Jensen, Rob H. and his team.
Wasn´t sure about the song when it was released, but i adore it now.

I´m really sorry, but there is something about Jared´s acting that really irritates me.

Edited November 11, 2019 by starfishka

[BabySpinach]

1 hour ago, starfishka said:

I´m really sorry, but there is something about Jared´s acting that really irritates me.

I'm not sure if it's the same thing that bothers you, but Jared's constant stuttering and Shatner-worthy pauses in "serious" scenes drive me up the wall. Literally Sam's very first spoken line of the season was a stuttering mess. His acting didn't used to be like that, but it was really obvious and distracting in this episode's BM scene. JUST SPIT IT OUT, DAMN IT.

[Bali]

I'm pretty certain that the beginning of the episode has nothing to do with the vampires or an alternate world. I think the beginning is the ending that Chuck wrote. Sam is back to yellow eyes and kills Dead. That is what Becky was so upset by, it is a horrible ending. And IT IS A HORRIBLE ENDING! And Chuck/Dabb just basically said, this is the ending and go die if you don't like it. I just have to get there.

But Chuck doesn't know that Sammy is clued in on the HORRIBLE ENDING. So somehow, they are going to find a different ending. 

On 11/7/2019 at 10:43 PM, ahrtee said:

Have you seen platypuses?  Or kangaroos?  (Or mosquitoes?)  Or even some obviously not-well-thought-out parts of the human anatomy?  😊

No. Platypuses are just God's sense of humor. 

[ILoveReading]

5 hours ago, starfishka said:

I´m really sorry, but there is something about Jared´s acting that really irritates me.

For me its tone.  I always feel like Sam is angry at Dean.  Even when they're just talking, Sam sounds impatient and condescending, like he's lecturing rather than just having a conversation.

4 minutes ago, Bali said:

But Chuck doesn't know that Sammy is clued in on the HORRIBLE ENDING. So somehow, they are going to find a different ending. 

This is why I think they will end up flipping the ending.  They can't actually end being puppets which is why I think Dean will kill Sam.  I can see that being an ending that Jensen had trouble digesting and since its how Kripke envisioned the original ending I could see why he loved it and talked Jensen into it.

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, Bali said:

I'm pretty certain that the beginning of the episode has nothing to do with the vampires or an alternate world. I think the beginning is the ending that Chuck wrote. Sam is back to yellow eyes and kills Dead. That is what Becky was so upset by, it is a horrible ending. And IT IS A HORRIBLE ENDING! And Chuck/Dabb just basically said, this is the ending and go die if you don't like it. I just have to get there.

But this doesn't jibe with the Chuck/Becky scenes. Sam had this dream before they left on the case. Chuck isn't writing when he goes to see Becky - she has to convince him to do so - and it's then he writes this horrible ending Becky reads. Chuck also appears to come up with this inspiration right there on the spot - or at least that's the way Rob played it.

Now, maybe this is the way one of the other AU's went, and Sam is 'sharing' that memory with Chuck, but it makes no sense for it to be relevant to this episode.

[Bali]

On 11/8/2019 at 10:07 PM, ILoveReading said:

That the purpose of bring back past characters just to kill them off/screw them over.  It seems to be the norm for this season.

Yeah, I'm not looking forward to seeing Jody and Donna again. 

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is why I think they will end up flipping the ending.  They can't actually end being puppets which is why I think Dean will kill Sam.  I can see that being an ending that Jensen had trouble digesting and since its how Kripke envisioned the original ending I could see why he loved it and talked Jensen into it.

It also makes sense as to why Jared loved it immediately. A - a big-damn-hero ending for Sam, and B - he is the one who wanted a real end - he's said for a long time if the brothers were still hunting, he wanted to see it.

[Bali]

On 11/9/2019 at 9:21 AM, bethy said:

Randomly I wondered about all the eating they had Dean do in this episode - bacon, pretzels, a hotdog. 

Directing is hard work and Jensen was HUNGRY! He didn't want to be Hangry, so Dean had to eat.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I'm not sure if it's the same thing that bothers you, but Jared's constant stuttering and Shatner-worthy pauses in "serious" scenes drive me up the wall.

OMG, I had this exact thought during this episode - I thought it was only me. Somewhere along the line, Jared got some (IMO) bad acting advice and he's run with it. The hesitation/stuttering/pausing makes everything Sam says seem insincere. There is a marked difference in how the character comes across (to me) when he doesn't do this.

[Bali]

13 hours ago, S Cook Productions said:

Not in Twilight. 😉

Great! Now everyone at work is staring at me because when that abomination is mentioned, I automatically hiss like a cat. (grumble grumble mutter sparklingvampires mumble)

[Bali]

6 hours ago, starfishka said:

(and wish the BM scene was shorter). 

OK- When I was growing up, Grandma used BM to mean bowel movement because she refused to use the vulgar word everyone in the universe uses, "poop". SO CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT NORMAL PEOPLE THINK "BM" means, because I know it must be something different.

TYIA

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, Bali said:

OK- When I was growing up, Grandma used BM to mean bowel movement because she refused to use the vulgar word everyone in the universe uses, "poop". SO CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT NORMAL PEOPLE THINK "BM" means, because I know it must be something different.

TYIA

Brotherly moment.

[Bali]

39 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But this doesn't jibe with the Chuck/Becky scenes. Sam had this dream before they left on the case. Chuck isn't writing when he goes to see Becky - she has to convince him to do so - and it's then he writes this horrible ending Becky reads. Chuck also appears to come up with this inspiration right there on the spot - or at least that's the way Rob played it.

Now, maybe this is the way one of the other AU's went, and Sam is 'sharing' that memory with Chuck, but it makes no sense for it to be relevant to this episode.

I see your argument. But my question is, "Are these two storylines happening concurrently and linear? Or did the Chuck/Becky scenes happen first- then dream- then let's go kill us a vampire?" I feel it is the second and that the opening scene is the bad ending that Chuck wrote. I hope it changes, but I have zero faith in Dabb to tell me a story that I like. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Bali said:

But Chuck doesn't know that Sammy is clued in on the HORRIBLE ENDING. So somehow, they are going to find a different ending. 

Chuck must know or have an inkling because he and Sam are linked becuase of the gunshot wound. And he's supposedly omniscient. I think that might be why he went to see Becky (my head canon) to fix his writer's block. I think if that was the end that Sam saw, the Chuck has to write around Sam's knowledge. Of course, if Sam had just told Dean about the dream, then they could take a minute to think through WHYSam had that dream.

I wouldn't mind if they end up with Sam away from Dean because he's afraid he'll go Dark side and kill Dean, then separately Dean hunts Chuck, which I always wanted to happen given what he said in Swan Song about hunting God.

7 minutes ago, Bali said:

OK- When I was growing up, Grandma used BM to mean bowel movement because she refused to use the vulgar word everyone in the universe uses, "poop". SO CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT NORMAL PEOPLE THINK "BM" means, because I know it must be something different.

TYIA

It's from Fan Fiction ep, the writer called them Boy Melodrama scenes.

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, Bali said:

I see your argument. But my question is, "Are these two storylines happening concurrently and linear? Or did the Chuck/Becky scenes happen first- then dream- then let's go kill us a vampire?" I feel it is the second and that the opening scene is the bad ending that Chuck wrote. I hope it changes, but I have zero faith in Dabb to tell me a story that I like. 

That would be contrived, even for Dabbernatural. As far as I recall, there was nothing to indicate these things weren't happening concurrently. Maybe if they'd opened with the Chuck/Becky scenes, sure, but I think it's a real stretch to be expected to assume that, given the way the story unfolded.

[Bali]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That would be contrived, even for Dabbernatural. As far as I recall, there was nothing to indicate these things weren't happening concurrently. Maybe if they'd opened with the Chuck/Becky scenes, sure, but I think it's a real stretch to be expected to assume that, given the way the story unfolded.

But I don't see how the vampires story can be what Becky read. Why would she say all of that about what it does to Dean to Sam? And where was the tombstone with Winchester in the Vampire story?

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, Bali said:

But I don't see how the vampires story can be what Becky read. Why would she say all of that about what it does to Dean to Sam? And where was the tombstone with Winchester in the Vampire story?

I don't follow. I don't think any of the Chuck/Becky stuff was related to the hunt or to Sam's dream/vision. At first I thought maybe, but if you accept (and I do) that things are happening concurrently, it couldn't be. Chuck is under-powered and not writing at all when he shows up at Becky's. That's how I see it anyway.

[juppschmitz]

7 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I'm not sure if it's the same thing that bothers you, but Jared's constant stuttering and Shatner-worthy pauses in "serious" scenes drive me up the wall. Literally Sam's very first spoken line of the season was a stuttering mess. His acting didn't used to be like that, but it was really obvious and distracting in this episode's BM scene. JUST SPIT IT OUT, DAMN IT.

I wonder if he thinks it makes his scenes ~grave~ or something. 

Well, it only makes me cringe. With secondhand embarrassment.

[ILoveReading]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Of course, if Sam had just told Dean about the dream, then they could take a minute to think through WHYSam had that dream.

Exactly.  It would explain why Sam doesn't feel free and it would be a big clue that God is not gone.   Dean is feeling free, (if, its not just a cover) but Sam is setting Dean up for a another big disappointing blow.

[Jonesy]

I'll give this episode an 8--strong direction by our guy Jensen.  Loved his action scene opening the episode...great stuff.  Loved the Benny Cameo.  Like how they matured Becky and gave her growth.  The Chuck stuff really propels the plot well--portending much pain to come for our heroes.

About Jared's acting--it's good but Jensen is the best actor on the show.  And the chemistry between them is great.

[juppschmitz]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Now, maybe this is the way one of the other AU's went, and Sam is 'sharing' that memory with Chuck, but it makes no sense for it to be relevant to this episode.

Sense. Dabb. LOL.

[Bergamot]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think any of the Chuck/Becky stuff was related to the hunt or to Sam's dream/vision. At first I thought maybe, but if you accept (and I do) that things are happening concurrently, it couldn't be. Chuck is under-powered and not writing at all when he shows up at Becky's. That's how I see it anyway.

That's what I thought as well. In addition to the reasons you give, I believe if we were supposed to think that Chuck was writing the episode we were watching, knowing this show it would have been made very obvious. Something like what we saw back in "The Monster at the End of This Book", where we would see Chuck typing something very specific, and then watch that scene actually happen.

As for Sam's dream, I am not sure yet what it is supposed to indicate, other than the fact that there is a *connection* between Sam and Chuck. I guess we are just going to have to wait and see. It could have been something from one of Chuck's "failed drafts" that Michael talks about in "Nihilism": "God -- Chuck -- is a writer, and like all writers, he churns out draft after draft. My world? This world? Nothing but failed drafts. And when he realizes that they're flawed, he moves on and tries again."

So anyway, I am thinking that the dream was nothing that Chuck was currently planning, but something that he had previously done a rough draft of, and then discarded. Because of that I doubt it was revealing something specific about what is going to happen this season. (Which is a shame, in my opinion, because it was really cool.)

As for Becky, I have never liked her as a character, and sorry, but that includes her appearance in this episode. Even though they were trying to soften her, to me she still seemed like a shallow character, and her family life interactions came across to me like something straight out of a bad sitcom.  Every time she appears on the show I hope that it is the last time we see her, so I would love it if Becky was gone for good, but I doubt I will be that lucky. I would especially hate it if she had some important part to play in the series finale, supposedly representing "The Fandom". Ugh. But my further thoughts on Becky are not episode-specific and maybe belong in the Bitterness and Unpopular Opinions thread.

[tennisgurl]

So who do we think will be depressed next week? Who will have to cheer the other one up? Tune in next week to find out! 

I kind of thought that Chuck wrote the episode that we watched starting with Sam having the dream and waking up, although I am not sure exactly when he wrote it (as he was busy working on his angsty finale when we saw him writing) or if he has that kind of power anymore. Or else, why even bother with him narrating the episode? I also thought that the downer ending was Chuck thinking that writing super depressing stories was brilliant? Of course, its hard to tell, I had enough of a hard time trying to figure out what Atomic Monsters was a reference too!

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But this doesn't jibe with the Chuck/Becky scenes. Sam had this dream before they left on the case. Chuck isn't writing when he goes to see Becky - she has to convince him to do so - and it's then he writes this horrible ending Becky reads. Chuck also appears to come up with this inspiration right there on the spot - or at least that's the way Rob played it.

Now, maybe this is the way one of the other AU's went, and Sam is 'sharing' that memory with Chuck, but it makes no sense for it to be relevant to this episode.

I think it could be that Sam is seeing Chuck's brain more or less. So even though Chuck went to Becky to help him jumpstart writing, the idea `as possibly in Chuck's mind before he put it to paper and that is what Sam saw. The Benny thing throws me but I can headcanon that Sam inserted Benny in his dream state. Or maybe Benny is not actually in Purgatory anymore and that if (my spec) the vision comes to pass it's because Benny was still a vampire but resurrected and joining Dean in a fight against Demon Blood Sam. And one of Sam's minions shot him with Dead Man's blood or something. Or Demon Blood Sam himself has enough power to kill Benny, vampire or not.

[Cambion]

Just want to throw some other thoughts into the mix about the Bunker fight at the beginning.

I'm of a mind that it is something that happened in an AU -- a draft if you will -- because of the following things (in no particular order):

Benny wasn't a vampire.  A vampire wouldn't die from being shot in the chest.  If he was a vampire he would know that he couldn't "see [Dean] on the other side, brother" because Dean would not go to purgatory since he is human.  I think Benny was a human version of the character who was on some other path to meet Dean.  Yes, if he never became a vampire in our timeline (and would have otherwise been dead of old age) he and Dean wouldn't have met.  But in a different draft Benny was born at a different time, didn't become a vampire and met Dean in some other way than Purgatory.  Yes, they are still the same personalities and became friends.  AU Bobby, AU Charlie, AU Kevin were still very much the same personalities as in our universe.

Dean says to Sam that it is the demon blood in him that is what's wrong.  So, different draft, Sam never detoxed and continued drinking demon blood and went to the dark side long ago.  

 Here Dean seems like another version of "The End" Dean - which I think has to count as an AU since it didn't come to pass (and the usual sci-fi explanation for AUs is that each decision spawns an alternate timeline, go left, one version, go right, another). So, he's just playing out if you can't save your brother, you have to kill him, the same as in "The End", just under a different circumstance.  Sam didn't let Lucifer wear him to destroy the world, he turned demon and is doing it himself.

I think a lot of us agree that the wound is setting up some kind of connection  between Sam and Chuck.  Perhaps Sam has gotten the ability to see the other AUs the way Chuck can. 

Even though it wasn't Sam dreaming at the same time Chuck was writing, maybe it is what Chuck wrote.  Sam's visions were premonitions, after all.  Maybe he didn't actually see the AU himself, but rather had a premonition of what Chuck would draft to fulfill Becky's call for danger and his own desire to punish the Sam and Dean that are pissing him off.  (That would go along with the original manifestation of his psychic visions from the early seasons.) Something breaks in Sam, he starts up with the demon blood again and his powers corrupt him and he starts destroying the world. 

More than one way to reach the end, and Chuck did say, "I don't know how I'm going to get there, but I know where I'm going".

Edited November 12, 2019 by Cambion
i kent spill

[juppschmitz]

4 hours ago, Cambion said:

I think a lot of us agree that the wound is setting up some kind of connection  between Sam and Chuck.

Wasn't something like that done in Harry Potter? Where Voldemort and Harry were somehow "connected"?

Points for originality, Dabb.

[Lemuria]

 I’m late to the party as usual. 😀 I really loved the opening sequence: Badass Dean! Bearded Dean! Benny! (Come back, Benny. Lots of us miss you!)

 I had a problem with Mary – – as much as I dislike the Mary that Dabb gave us over the last two years – – being an afterthought, and less important to the brothers than Rowena. 

 My biggest problem though was Sam’s comment that they would do the same as the parents in this episode. Seriously, Sam? You believe that you and/or  Dean would kill innocent people to help Jack? (You know, the alleged chewy-centered nougat that just murdered your mother.) I suppose if this is not totally out of character for Sam, who seem to have no moral or ethical qualms over what Amy was doing and thought it would be a good idea to let her go, but it definitely will be out of character for Dean in that respect.

 I suppose this is not totally out of character for Sam, who seemed to have too few moral or ethical qualms over what Amy was doing not to think it would be a good idea to let her go, but it definitely would be out of character for Dean in that respect, IMO, even in Dabb’s reign. 

And if the show went there with either of the brothers or both of them, for me this would be a line those characters could never come back from. 

As for Rowena, I don’t get the apparent depth of grief.  She was an enemy longer than she was a help to them, she betrayed them multiple times and she killed innocent people just because she could. (of course, this is somewhat consistent for Sam, because he tends to “bond“ with beings he feels a connection with.  Face of Lucifer, anyone?) 

 Besides, I think she also took this as an opportunity to gain the power she’s always wanted, since I think we’re going to be seeing her as the Queen of Hell. (No spoilers, just speculation) 

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

 My biggest problem though was Sam’s comment that they would do the same as the parents in this episode. Seriously, Sam? You believe that you and/or  Dean would kill innocent people to help Jack? (You know, the alleged chewy-centered nougat that just murdered your mother.) I suppose if this is not totally out of character for Sam, who seem to have no moral or ethical qualms over what Amy was doing and thought it would be a good idea to let her go, but it definitely will be out of character for Dean in that respect.

That really did piss me off beyond belief. The thing that really irked me is that maybe Sam would do that. And even that seems a stretch when he went along with Dean to out Jack in the Malak Box.

Sam lumping Dean into what he would do aggravated me. I guess Sam (Dabb) doesn't remember/chooses to forget that  Dean was all set to kill Jack to protect the universe and for killing Mary. He wasn't trying to save Jack at all. Whatever, writers.

I really do wonder if that was Chuck speaking through Sam in some way to justify his own behavior with Becky and her family when he snapped them out if existence or at at least off this plane.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

That really did piss me off beyond belief. The thing that really irked me is that maybe Sam would do that. And even that seems a stretch when he went along with Dean to out Jack in the Malak Box.

Sam lumping Dean into what he would do aggravated me. I guess Sam (Dabb) doesn't remember/chooses to forget that  Dean was all set to kill Jack to protect the universe and for killing Mary. He wasn't trying to save Jack at all. Whatever, writers.

I really do wonder if that was Chuck speaking through Sam in some way to justify his own behavior with Becky and her family when he snapped them out if existence or at at least off this plane.

Dean both nodded and did not disagree. 

[Aeryn13]

32 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dean both nodded and did not disagree. 

That makes it all the worse. So they would kidnap and kill innocent people for Jackie-poo? That makes them monsters.

[SueB]

38 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That makes it all the worse. So they would kidnap and kill innocent people for Jackie-poo? That makes them monsters.

I took it to mean they would go to extremes.  But not once, in their 15 year history, did we see either boy (without influence) kill and innocent to save each other (nor would they for Jack, Cas or Mary).  In short, I didn't take it as literally the same but that they had been at least morally dubious (see forcing Kaia into a car, bringing back Jack with a soul siphoning spell, etc..).  Not as bad as murder and kidnap but definitely signs of a what desperation to parent does. So, for example, taking the blame and potentially getting killed for it (like the Father did), totally within their wheelhouse.

[Aeryn13]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

I took it to mean they would go to extremes.  But not once, in their 15 year history, did we see either boy (without influence) kill and innocent to save each other (nor would they for Jack, Cas or Mary).  In short, I didn't take it as literally the same but that they had been at least morally dubious (see forcing Kaia into a car, bringing back Jack with a soul siphoning spell, etc..).  Not as bad as murder and kidnap but definitely signs of a what desperation to parent does. So, for example, taking the blame and potentially getting killed for it (like the Father did), totally within their wheelhouse.

Then that was a case where the dialogue should have been way more specific - and the narrative less "poor pity them" about the parents. As it stood, it really sounded like Sam made a blanket statement about how they would do exactly the same for Jack as those parents did, which in the episode happened to be kidnapping and almost murder.

And if they are okay with that, it makes them hypocritical on top of things. 

[Bergamot]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Then that was a case where the dialogue should have been way more specific - and the narrative less "poor pity them" about the parents. As it stood, it really sounded like Sam made a blanket statement about how they would do exactly the same for Jack as those parents did, which in the episode happened to be kidnapping and almost murder.

Yes, I agree. I was so shocked by this that I asked in my first post on this episode if I had heard correctly, because I could not believe it.

I can only come up with three options. The first one is that the writer of the episode is so incompetent that he didn’t intend to for the character to convey what I heard. That Sam saying they would do the same thing for Jack as the father did for his son means something different from what those words mean.

The second option is that the writer of the episode doesn’t see anything wrong with what the parents, and specifically the father, did in this episode. That he actually thinks it was admirable, because it is okay to do anything evil to innocent people as long as it is for Jack your child. In which case, in my opinion there is not just something wrong with this person’s writing, but with his moral compass.

The third option is the writer knows how awful this would sound, and that it is the intention of the writers, for some reason of their own, to make us see the Winchesters as monsters. In which case, I have to wonder why I am bothering to watch the show.

Because I love the show and want to watch it until the end, I am trying to lean toward the first option. Even though it is really sad that poor writing is the best option I can come up with.
 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, I agree. I was so shocked by this that I asked in my first post on this episode if I had heard correctly, because I could not believe it.

This is one of the rare occasions I wish the writer or Dabb would respond to a question on social media. It goes so directly to the core of the character(s) that I would honestly rather it be something that they (the writer) just didn't think through. Maybe the line was written differently? They could have easily offered up the sentiment of how far you would go for your children (though I gag at the implication of Jack being their son) without implying that kidnap and murder would not be out of the question.

They are certainly willing to accept and acknowledge the endless smoke that gets blown up their skirts - too bad they won't respond to something that actually matters.

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, I agree. I was so shocked by this that I asked in my first post on this episode if I had heard correctly, because I could not believe it.

I can only come up with three options. The first one is that the writer of the episode is so incompetent that he didn’t intend to for the character to convey what I heard. That Sam saying they would do the same thing for Jack as the father did for his son means something different from what those words mean.

The second option is that the writer of the episode doesn’t see anything wrong with what the parents, and specifically the father, did in this episode. That he actually thinks it was admirable, because it is okay to do anything evil to innocent people as long as it is for Jack your child. In which case, in my opinion there is not just something wrong with this person’s writing, but with his moral compass.

The third option is the writer knows how awful this would sound, and that it is the intention of the writers, for some reason of their own, to make us see the Winchesters as monsters. In which case, I have to wonder why I am bothering to watch the show.

Because I love the show and want to watch it until the end, I am trying to lean toward the first option. Even though it is really sad that poor writing is the best option I can come up with.
 

Sam would... probably. He was okay with the virgin sacrifice in Jus in Bello.

Dean would not... 

However  I think Sam probably meant that he would pretend to be the monster and willingly die to protect Jack which is still wrong because then Jack would free to continue killing.

It's a mirror to Cas and Jack in a way. Cas withheld information to protect Jack when he knew Jack was dangerous because he no longer had his soul. It was the act of a loving father.

[S Cook Productions]

On 11/11/2019 at 6:02 AM, BabySpinach said:

I'm not sure if it's the same thing that bothers you, but Jared's constant stuttering and Shatner-worthy pauses in "serious" scenes drive me up the wall. Literally Sam's very first spoken line of the season was a stuttering mess. His acting didn't used to be like that, but it was really obvious and distracting in this episode's BM scene. JUST SPIT IT OUT, DAMN IT.

Lol. No one should do Shatner except Shatner! 

[Shannonsspirit]

23 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, I agree. I was so shocked by this that I asked in my first post on this episode if I had heard correctly, because I could not believe it.

I can only come up with three options. The first one is that the writer of the episode is so incompetent that he didn’t intend to for the character to convey what I heard. That Sam saying they would do the same thing for Jack as the father did for his son means something different from what those words mean.

The second option is that the writer of the episode doesn’t see anything wrong with what the parents, and specifically the father, did in this episode. That he actually thinks it was admirable, because it is okay to do anything evil to innocent people as long as it is for Jack your child. In which case, in my opinion there is not just something wrong with this person’s writing, but with his moral compass.

The third option is the writer knows how awful this would sound, and that it is the intention of the writers, for some reason of their own, to make us see the Winchesters as monsters. In which case, I have to wonder why I am bothering to watch the show.

Because I love the show and want to watch it until the end, I am trying to lean toward the first option. Even though it is really sad that poor writing is the best option I can come up with.
 

From an audience perspective, I'd like to think that all thought what both parents did was atrocious. Even the boy said that he didn't want this. I also think the writer would be aware of this. It's wrong. How far we may go for our children? No one with a drop of morality would sanction those parents' actions. That may change if a parent was in that situation, but not before. Some need to justify a horrible act, so you can live with yourself. But it was wrong, he knew it was wrong and the audience knew it was wrong.

So, yes, it is all about Jack. And it is all about forgiving Jack for killing Mary. We are being constantly reminded that anything is okay if it evolves Jack. Shooting God and potentially ending the world is okay, because it's Jack. Retconning God, the creator of souls to balance free will is okay because of Jack. The whole damn show is about Jack.

[MysteryGuest]

Why in all of their 15 years did they not allow the boys to keep their beards once and a while?  It would certainly have been more realistic to have them not shaving when they're out on some long monster hunt, hanging out in abandoned buildings with no water, power, etc.  Oh well, at least we got to see it once.

I thought it was an interesting twist to have the son be the monster.  I really wasn't expecting it.  

As much as I liked Benny, his appearing in Sam's dream seemed silly to me.  And if you blinked, you'd have missed the scene.  I'm guessing Jensen just had a chance to bring back someone he liked, so he took it.  

I'm not sure how I like the evil Chuck storyline.  Are we assuming he cannot be killed because of the whole light/dark balance thing with Amara?  Or will they conveniently forget about that when the time comes?

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

From an audience perspective, I'd like to think that all thought what both parents did was atrocious. Even the boy said that he didn't want this. I also think the writer would be aware of this. It's wrong. How far we may go for our children? No one with a drop of morality would sanction those parents' actions. That may change if a parent was in that situation, but not before. Some need to justify a horrible act, so you can live with yourself. But it was wrong, he knew it was wrong and the audience knew it was wrong.

So, yes, it is all about Jack. And it is all about forgiving Jack for killing Mary. We are being constantly reminded that anything is okay if it evolves Jack. Shooting God and potentially ending the world is okay, because it's Jack. Retconning God, the creator of souls to balance free will is okay because of Jack. The whole damn show is about Jack.

I feel your anger over what Dabb and his cronies have done to this show through the Nougatbaby character and could not agree more. 🤬

[gonzosgirrl]

31 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

As much as I liked Benny, his appearing in Sam's dream seemed silly to me.  And if you blinked, you'd have missed the scene.  I'm guessing Jensen just had a chance to bring back someone he liked, so he took it.  

I know (think?) you don't read spoilers, so I'll confirm that this is precisely what happened. He read the scene, thought Benny would work here and said he was his favorite character,  and asked Ty to do it.

[MysteryGuest]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I know (think?) you don't read spoilers, so I'll confirm that this is precisely what happened. He read the scene, thought Benny would work here and said he was his favorite character,  and asked Ty to do it.

Thanks!  I'm happy Jensen got to work with someone he likes, but I still think it was hardly worth it.  I almost didn't recognize him at first.  I suppose it was harmless enough.  

[Shannonsspirit]

47 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Why in all of their 15 years did they not allow the boys to keep their beards once and a while?  It would certainly have been more realistic to have them not shaving when they're out on some long monster hunt, hanging out in abandoned buildings with no water, power, etc.  Oh well, at least we got to see it once.

I thought it was an interesting twist to have the son be the monster.  I really wasn't expecting it.  

As much as I liked Benny, his appearing in Sam's dream seemed silly to me.  And if you blinked, you'd have missed the scene.  I'm guessing Jensen just had a chance to bring back someone he liked, so he took it.  

I'm not sure how I like the evil Chuck storyline.  Are we assuming he cannot be killed because of the whole light/dark balance thing with Amara?  Or will they conveniently forget about that when the time comes?

I detest the retcon of Chuck into a bored, mustache twirling psychopath, because it nullifies overarching series themes of soul and freewill, and renders the brothers as pointless pawns of their own story.

Now that "writers lie" they can do anything they want.

[Castiels Cat]

48 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I feel your anger over what Dabb and his cronies have done to this show through the Nougatbaby character and could not agree more. 🤬

And Sam shot Chuck... just saying....

Like I said...  this works for Sam only.

I get why Dean in the end could not shoot Jack. That was a different thing entirely. It was about Vengeance. And they had shown enough to tell us that Dean loved Jack like a son.  Sam has done crazy stuff without a soul too... and on demon blood... and Dean had defended himself with the MoC which we have been told is so much worse than anything Sam ever did!!! and Dean saved Sam's life in season nine by allowing Gadreel have access to him, Sam said yes but... IT'S DEAN'S FAULT!!! and it's worse than anything Sam did whilst soulless or hopped up on demon blood. I know this because I have been told it by fans a zillion times. 

And of course Dean feels this guilt thing.

Back to the point at hand... it was a badly written line. Season 14 after Ouroboros was horrid. Sam shooting Chuck was the dumbest thing to do literally. 

I think Chuck was bad all along. He is just obvious about it now. Explain to me what about season 11 made him seem like a  good guy.

What about Fan Fiction. Showing up for that was a shitty move imo.

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/12/2019 at 3:12 PM, SueB said:

I took it to mean they would go to extremes.  But not once, in their 15 year history, did we see either boy (without influence) kill and innocent to save each other (nor would they for Jack, Cas or Mary).  In short, I didn't take it as literally the same but that they had been at least morally dubious (see forcing Kaia into a car, bringing back Jack with a soul siphoning spell, etc..).  Not as bad as murder and kidnap but definitely signs of a what desperation to parent does. So, for example, taking the blame and potentially getting killed for it (like the Father did), totally within their wheelhouse.

Didn't Sam okay killing Oskar for the spell to remove the MoC. He didn't wield the knife however he did tell Cas to go ahead.

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/11/2019 at 9:58 AM, Bali said:

I'm pretty certain that the beginning of the episode has nothing to do with the vampires or an alternate world. I think the beginning is the ending that Chuck wrote. Sam is back to yellow eyes and kills Dead. That is what Becky was so upset by, it is a horrible ending. And IT IS A HORRIBLE ENDING! And Chuck/Dabb just basically said, this is the ending and go die if you don't like it. I just have to get there.

But Chuck doesn't know that Sammy is clued in on the HORRIBLE ENDING. So somehow, they are going to find a different ending. 

No. Platypuses are just God's sense of humor. 

Yeah... I agree that Chuck wrote that. I think Sam's powers have been reactivated. It was a vision of the future... a possible future... Chuck's The End. The End was always an alternate reality that was dependent on factors. The set-up of Dean fighting his way to Sam with ragtag hunters is straight from The End.

Sam's demons remind me of the Boy King leading the demon army prophecy from Azazel. I reckon that whatever juice he is gaining from Chuck via his shoulder reactivated Azazel's blood powers. 

I also think that Chuck is probably taking away whatever he allowed Dean to do because he took a shine to him initially. So the original plan is back on as much as possible.

In season 5 according to Chuck Dean changes the story as it was written twice. Once in The Monster at the End of the Book when he uses the prophet to rescue Sam from Lilith and once in Swan Song when he shows up at Stull and derails things by allowing Sam to remember him and take over just long enough.

Now there is no one to rescue Sam from; he is not drinking blood or trying not to say yes to an archangel. The corruption is inside him growing.

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Didn't Sam okay killing Oskar for the spell to remove the MoC. He didn't wield the knife however he did tell Cas to go ahead.

Sam didn't know about Oskar.  He was already at the cafe with Dean and Death when Crowley surprised Rowena with Oskar.