S04.E02: Payment Required

[shapeshifter]

Airs 10/9C

from thetvdb.com:

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Elliot + Darlene come together. Dom gets dark army vibes.

from IMDb:

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Elliot and darlene come together. Dom gets dark army vibes. Price has answers.

[Cardie]

So the show will end with a “Deus” ex Machina. 

[hnygrl]

Just how many people are in elliot's head anyway??? Last count was three and a possible. I  need to watch this again, without commercials 

[Cardie]

I wonder if the third alter is someone we’ve seen before and assumed to be real or if it’s that little boy. Could there be two characters with DID and the kid is his/her alter?

 I know there’s a lot of resistance here to Whiterose’s Congo project being a time machine or other sci fi tech. It is so central to everything that has occurred that I cannot imagine to being a red herring. So what do you guys think it is?

[justmehere]

So, a bombshell of another personality (or 3 - which calls back to Elliot's hallucination during the drug overdose, seeing his Mom and younger self there... but no other one... and Mr. Robot saying they'll all go away if Elliot dies... Does that mean he knows about the mom and the kid personalities? If that's what that meant.) ... I have no clue, and I kind of want to be surprised. I started to think it's all in the kid's head, but the mom said the chair at the head of the table wasn't his chair. 

I'm intrigued by the way conversations with Elliot and Mr. Robot have been framed in these first two episodes. In the first, Darlene is talking to Mr. Robot in the middle of the apartment while Elliot is on the couch - and then she turns to talk to Elliot. We don't see him move from one place to the other, but her attention suddenly shifts, with no reaction to the location change. They did it again in this episode with Price talking closely to Elliot - in a near whisper - and then turning his attention to Mr. Robot who is several feet away. Are we  meant to assume that Elliot moved and we just didn't see it? I could almost buy it with Darlene, but the scene with Price was more of a stretch. Or, is something else going on? Maybe to do with fracturing further?

Also, they've shown Elliot and Mr. Robot doing two totally separate things at the same time. Like, Elliot at the post-it board working out connections while Mr. Robot searched the fake guy's social media - two completely different areas of focus. And then again searching the apartment: Elliot is looking at a book while Mr. Robot tries to open the window. It seems a greater contrast in actual activity than we've seen (though my memory of the whole show is certainly questionable). We also haven't seen Elliot deliberately "hand off" to Mr. Robot in a conversation before, although I think that's due to them finally communicating more openly.

Started to feel some sympathy for Price. Not something I expected. 

[mxc90]

99.9% is not good enough Dom. She just threw that % out there thinking they would be satisfied and it got Horton killed. 

Janice is creepy listening to some Charles Manson follower. She and Irving must have been the top students of the Dark Army class.

With Susan Jacobs missing for over a month, would any of Darlene's information be useful now? Dark Army should have change protocols.

The person Dom and the other agent were interrogating deals with hiding people. I wonder if he will come into play to hide Dom or her family.

At the end, wasn't that the same office Wellick and his group of lawyers were in when he asked Elliot to join E Corp. in season one? Was little Elliot was sitting/spinning in the same chair?

Edited October 14, 2019 by mxc90

[truthaboutluv]

So I guess I should just accept having my mind blown every week until this is all over. So apparently Elliot has a second personality. That's just great. We have a schizophrenic with multiple personality disorder and social anxiety as the great hope to take down one of the most powerful evil entities. I gotta say, I don't have much hope in their coming out on top here. 

I always love White Rose and Price scenes. Those two actors are brilliant on their own and even more brilliant together. I love Price's zero fucks given attitude in the conversation. And god help me, I hate myself for it but I cracked up laughing when the old woman dropped her dead dog on the counter and the evil taxidermist's expression. And man, poor, poor Dom. Talk about being trapped. I wouldn't blame her if she followed Freddy's lead from the last episode and just off herself. Because this is no life. 

[truthaboutluv]

6 hours ago, justmehere said:

Are we  meant to assume that Elliot moved and we just didn't see it? I could almost buy it with Darlene, but the scene with Price was more of a stretch. Or, is something else going on? Maybe to do with fracturing further?

I just think it means we the viewer, are seeing things from Elliot's perspective, who is an unreliable narrator and now co-exists with his Mr. Robot personality. So he sees him as separate from him. However, I'm sure if the focus shifted to Price or Darlene's narrative in those scenes, it would be made clear that they were speaking to one person the whole time. 

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I know there’s a lot of resistance here to Whiterose’s Congo project being a time machine or other sci fi tech. It is so central to everything that has occurred that I cannot imagine to being a red herring. So what do you guys think it is?

I would just personally hate it because as I've been saying, as heightened and over the top as the show may be, thus far it is still grounded in some semblance of reality. Conspiracy theory type reality but reality nonetheless. I'm sorry, time travel is just a giant no for me.

Unless they make it that White Rose is insane and believes he can control time but it's not actually happening, I might accept that. But selling me of a real time travel machine being built that what, in the end, will reverse events and people come back to life or whatever? Yeah, no. I just don't want to think Esmail will go for something this banal. At least I hope not.

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Also, they've shown Elliot and Mr. Robot doing two totally separate things at the same time. Like, Elliot at the post-it board working out connections while Mr. Robot searched the fake guy's social media - two completely different areas of focus. And then again searching the apartment: Elliot is looking at a book while Mr. Robot tries to open the window. It seems a greater contrast in actual activity than we've seen (though my memory of the whole show is certainly questionable). 

Again, I just think that's purely artistic direction and the viewer seeing things from Elliot's perspective. We know there's only one person, so it's assumed that we know these things aren't happening exactly as shown. So for example, the truth is really that Elliot worked on the post-it board and searched the social media.

Because let's not forget that while we saw him and Mr. Robot both looking around the apartment, Esmail made sure to also show the hotel manager's screen that clearly showed only one person, Elliot, being dragged out of the apartment. Bates Motel did the same thing, particularly in the latter seasons, with Norman and "Mother".

Edited October 14, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[hnygrl]

Right now? Price is the most dangerous man in the room.  

A man with absolutely nothing left to lose and all the keys to the kingdom is to be feared. And he scared white rose when he quit. 

That gave me hope. 

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, mxc90 said:

At the end, wasn't that the same office Wellick and his group of lawyers were in when he asked Elliot to join E Corp. in season one? Was little Elliot was sitting/spinning in the same chair?

Ah-ha! Back to the Wellick-as-Elliot Alter theory!

*****
 

2 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

always love White Rose and Price scenes. Those two actors are brilliant on their own and even more brilliant together. I love Price's zero fucks given attitude in the conversation. And god help me, I hate myself for it but I cracked up laughing when the old woman dropped her dead dog on the counter and the evil taxidermist's expression. And man, poor, poor Dom. Talk about being trapped. I wouldn't blame her if she followed Freddy's lead from the last episode and just off herself. Because this is no life. 

Price made Whiterose throw down her precious tree!

Dom is primed to sacrifice herself.😐

11 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

Right now? Price is the most dangerous man in the room.  

A man with absolutely nothing left to lose and all the keys to the kingdom is to be feared. And he scared white rose when he quit. 

That gave me hope. 

Price and Dom have nothing/everything to lose. 

*****

In the end credits, for me, there was a morphing of E (Corp) into Esmail. LOL. Probably unintended. 

But if Elliot is Wellick (almost anagrams), then that would that mean Elliot = E-Corp? Nah. No way. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by shapeshifter

[mxc90]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Ah-ha! Back to the Wellick-as-Elliot Alter theory!

No theory from me. I never heard of it until today. I just looked at the office and thought it looked familiar.

Has anyone pitched Krista or Leon as the 3rd person?

Edited October 15, 2019 by mxc90

[justmehere]

truthaboutluv  -- I wasn't implying that there were actually two people in the room. I know there's only Elliot. I just noticed a difference in what we're seeing. In the "hand off" in one scene, Elliot turned away and Mr. Robot stepped forward to continue the conversation. In these other scenes, there was distance between where Elliot was and where Mr. Robot was. One instant, Price is whispering to Elliot - the next, Mr. Robot is speaking from several feet away. We saw Price shift his focus (and Darlene, in her scene), but nothing else. It's different, a very specific directorial choice, and so I wondered why. Maybe it's only metaphorical - in one scene they are close in their ideas, and in the others, not. I'd have to watch again to note the dialog. Maybe it's something more. Just speculating.

[truthaboutluv]

Just now, justmehere said:

 -- I wasn't implying that there were actually two people in the room.

I didn't think you were. Like I said, I just think it's a directorial decision based on Elliot's having Multiple Personality Disorder and he and Mr. Robot now sort of co-existing with each other. I guess it could mean more in the end but like I said, they did the same thing a few times on Bates Motel, where Norman was doing one thing while Mother another, even though we all knew Mother only existed in Norman's head. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, mxc90 said:

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Ah-ha! Back to the Wellick-as-Elliot Alter theory!

No theory from me. I never heard of it until today. I just looked at the office and it thought looked familiar.

It was a kind of fan-hive-mind theory from earlier seasons. 😉

[Cardie]

I was a big believer in the Wellick as alter theory back in the day but Tyrell has been all over the news and doesn’t look like Elliot. They also seem to have been in two different places at the same time. But I would love for it to be true. 

[xaxat]

Carly Chaikin and Rami Malek were fantastic in their scenes with Darlene and Elliot. 

As for the twist, I have no clue.

[Anela]

6 hours ago, mxc90 said:

No theory from me. I never heard of it until today. I just looked at the office and it thought looked familiar.

Has anyone pitched Krista or Leon as the 3rd person?

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

It was a kind of fan-hive-mind theory from earlier seasons. 😉

I wondered if they were going there after all, even though he'd been all over the news. 

So Elliot is also his mum? He opened the safe deposit box? They said it wasn't like her to do something like that. Surely he would have kept payments up, though. Unless Mr Robot took precedence.

I need to watch the other seasons again. 

[Slovenly Muse]

15 hours ago, justmehere said:

I'm intrigued by the way conversations with Elliot and Mr. Robot have been framed in these first two episodes. In the first, Darlene is talking to Mr. Robot in the middle of the apartment while Elliot is on the couch - and then she turns to talk to Elliot. We don't see him move from one place to the other, but her attention suddenly shifts, with no reaction to the location change. They did it again in this episode with Price talking closely to Elliot - in a near whisper - and then turning his attention to Mr. Robot who is several feet away.

Yeah, I'm also inclined to believe this is a stylistic choice made because we are seeing the scene from Elliot's point of view. Elliot sees a separate other person in the room that no one else does (Mr. Robot) and so his mind is making those slight changes to fill in the gaps and compensate for that slightly-altered reality. For example, even though Darlene is speaking directly to Elliot the whole time, his brain will generate an altered perception of her physically turning to address his different personalities, in order to make sense of the fact that Mr Robot is an established solid entity that is elsewhere in the room. This makes it actually NECESSARY for her to turn, because both Elliot and Mr. Robot would separately perceive Darlene (or Price) making eye contact and speaking directly to them. So, in order to make sense of the fact that they perceive each other to be in a different spot in the room, they MUST see her turn to address whichever one she is speaking to. Does that make sense? This is Elliot's flexible reality compensating for concessions he's already made.

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Ah-ha! Back to the Wellick-as-Elliot Alter theory!

37 minutes ago, Anela said:

So Elliot is also his mum?

I don't know that the Wellick theory makes sense anymore. Certainly it COULD be his mom, and he is trying to reassemble his family in some way... but my theory is that it is Angela. After all, when Elliot's father died he created the Mr. Robot persona to process, and protect himself from, those feelings and seek revenge on the corporation responsible. It would make sense that seeing the picture of Angela's body caused a similar response... a sort of avatar of Angela being constructed in the back of his consciousness out of all the ugly things he wanted to do to the people responsible. An avatar who can eventually take control and take the revenge that Elliot can't bring himself to face. Plus, it would keep the actress around, and it GENUINELY  surprised me that they seemed willing to write her out in the first episode of the season. While Angela's own journey might have ended the way we saw, Elliot's journey WITH Angela is still in need of closure. That's my best guess, but time will tell.

17 hours ago, Cardie said:

 I know there’s a lot of resistance here to Whiterose’s Congo project being a time machine or other sci fi tech. It is so central to everything that has occurred that I cannot imagine to being a red herring. So what do you guys think it is?

Yeah, this show is so grounded in the realities of what technology means for our lives today, I can't see them going the route of introducing a literal time machine or something else that is too far removed from current possibilities. However, I COULD see this project as being something of a Black Mirror-type supercomputer capable of, say, creating realistic simulacra of dead people in a virtual space, based on the data collected by E Corp during their lives. A "time machine" that could re-unite people with their loved ones ONLY in a hollow, digital way. But I don't know. If that were their end goal, I'd think Whiterose would say she was hacking "death" instead of "time." But I DO feel, given the themes of the series, that the answer is related to the massive amount of data collected by tech companies. Maybe it's a way to extrapolate backwards in time based on the sheer volume of data collected today, that can help us understand previous generations, or even civilizations, based on what current data is able to tell us about patterns and human nature? But then, Whiterose wouldn't be talking about reuniting people with their dead relatives. So I don't know! But I feel pretty certain the answer is somewhere between "absolute realism" and "sci-fi nonsense," rather than one or the other.

This show has surprised me every season but the first, so I'm not going to go too nuts trying to get ahead of it. I'm definitely excited to see where it's all going!

[Anela]

 

Wait, never mind. Deleted it.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Anela

[hnygrl]

Know what? I don't think we'll ever know what the Congo Project is. I think it just..."the project" and they're gonna leave the rest  up to us to imagine.

I'm also wondering who the third MALE (momElliot said "HE" wasn't here yet) could possibly be. 

Hope they don't do something lame like blow up the building with the Deus group in it...that won't end the group, just those particular members of it.

And if you'll notice, MomElliot was always the way she was when she was young, before the abuse started. Season two was MomElliot. I was so shocked to see her as an old lady in a nursing home cause all we ever saw on the show was MomElliot...

When Dom decides that none of this is worth it anymore and spills her guts to the brass? What's gonna happen? I see her doing something similar to this because she's so darned honest at the core. This dishonesty and killing and death is literally destroying her soul and after a certain point, you consider none of it worth it and well...I wouldn't wanna be her neice or nephew cause at some point she's going to realize nothing she says or does is going to keep them alive, and just give up and go rogue. My thought is cynical on this one. "Oh Dom, you stupid, stupid girl. Did you REALLY THINK YOU were the only plant we had?" Says the Top Brass as he blows her head off. Or worse, turns on the computer and makes her watch as her mom is killed.

Oh man this show! Makes your brain hurt!

Edited October 15, 2019 by hnygrl

[xaxat]

The one thing that I can think of that would make the Congo project work for the show is fusion energy. A clean, almost limitless source of power. Owning that technology would mean they own the future of the world.

Real life, small scale fusion project.

I admit to not paying too much attention to seasons two and three. Did we ever find out who the "fellow (?) traveler" who talked to Darlene (seen in the previously) was? He likes the same fur collar jackets that Darlene does.

[truthaboutluv]

26 minutes ago, xaxat said:

Did we ever find out who the "fellow (?) traveler" who talked to Darlene (seen in the previously) was?

That's Vera, the drug dealer who blackmailed Elliot into helping him break out of prison in the first season, by kidnapping Elliot's neighbor/drug dealer/part time sex partner. In the end, Shayla had been murdered the whole time and Vera took off after breaking out of the prison.

He's the one Darlene asked Elliot about last night, only for Elliot to realize he didn't remember having the conversation with her and thought Mr. Robot did but he swears he didn't and so, surprise, Elliot may have another personality he's currently unaware of. 

2 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

. but my theory is that it is Angela.

I will be honest, that was my first thought when the episode ended, particularly because as you mentioned, it would be a clever way for the actress to still be a part of the last season. And I could definitely see them downplaying her involvement in the season, as they've done, to ensure the viewers don't see it coming. 

But today, I started thinking it may be the young boy that showed up the day Elliot was planning on killing himself. The one that was supposed to be the murdered F-Society member's brother. I remember a lot of people being convinced back then that he was likely a figment of Elliot's imagination - his subconscious stopping him from killing himself.

We know from Angela's telling him the truth and Elliot himself finally remembering how he was the one who pushed himself out of the window, all the years he thought it was his father, that Elliot clearly began dissociating from a very young age. I think many assumed from the ending scene that this little boy and the Mom are waiting for this new personality we and Elliot know nothing about.

Particularly because the Mother says no, not him, the other one, etc. But it's just as possible the dialogue is referring to their waiting for Elliot and Mr.  Robot and the little boy is the other personality. The question of course is where does the mother come in, which then leads me to lean towards the theory that Elliot may have recreated his family through his personalities - young him, his father and mother.

[Anela]

BD Wong seems to be having fun responding to fans on twitter. 🙂 

[Ottis]

I’m really enjoying this season. It feels like a bit of a reset from the mess last season. And if finally gets us past the Original Sin of what the hell F Society thought would happen after they brought down the system. 

The fact there is another personality is meh for me. If there are two there could be three or more. Maybe a lot of characters we have seen are Elliot. 

How this show touches on White Rose’s long-term plans and the parallels to China IRL interests me. 

[benteen]

I think it's pretty obvious who the third personality is after watching this episode.

Really good episode.  This season is off to a strong start.

I very much like the cinematography this season.  Well done.

Also very much enjoyed the Whiterose and Price scenes.  Price was smart enough to realize that after killing Angela, Whiterose has no more leverage over him.  It's amazing that Whiterose also didn't realize this.

[Milaxx]

On 10/14/2019 at 1:17 PM, shapeshifter said:

  On 10/14/2019 at 8:22 AM, mxc90 said:

At the end, wasn't that the same office Wellick and his group of lawyers were in when he asked Elliot to join E Corp. in season one? Was little Elliot was sitting/spinning in the same chair?

Yes it’s the same office. I don’t think it means Wellick is an alter. I think it just signifies a meeting of the minds. 
 

On 10/14/2019 at 2:12 AM, hnygrl said:

Just how many people are in elliot's head anyway??? Last count was three and a possible. I  need to watch this again, without commercials 

Elliot, Mr. Robot, child Elliot, Magda circa 1989 ( youthful, black hair), us the imaginary friend, and briefly Trenton’s kid brother. 
My own personal theory is there’s also another Mr. Robot/Edward Alderson. I call him Angry Robot. This persona, is very angry and laser focused on the task at hand.  This was the alter we see every time Mr Robot gets mad. He’s the one who was ready to blow up Stone Mountain before they came up with the raspberry pi solution. He’s the one who was okay with blowing up those  71 buildings. During that time we didn’t see Mr Robot. Elliot only communicated with him via computer terminal. Notice how shocked Mr Robot is afterwards to find out all 71 buildings were blown up. 

On 10/14/2019 at 1:24 PM, mxc90 said:

No theory from me. I never heard of it until today. I just looked at the office and thought it looked familiar.

Has anyone pitched Krista or Leon as the 3rd person?

We’ve seen both Krista & Leon interact with other people. Krista had the married boyfriend Elliot got flipper from. Leon tracked down Trenton & Mobley and also Irving.

On 10/14/2019 at 10:49 PM, xaxat said:

The one thing that I can think of that would make the Congo project work for the show is fusion energy. A clean, almost limitless source of power. Owning that technology would mean they own the future of the world.

Real life, small scale fusion project.

I admit to not paying too much attention to seasons two and three. Did we ever find out who the "fellow (?) traveler" who talked to Darlene (seen in the previously) was? He likes the same fur collar jackets that Darlene does.

That exactly what the Washington Township plant looks like. I guess nuclear reactors all pretty much look the same.

[shapeshifter]

13 hours ago, benteen said:

Price was smart enough to realize that after killing Angela, Whiterose has no more leverage over him.  It's amazing that Whiterose also didn't realize this.

Yes, Whiterose having Angela killed seemed like a flaw in the plot to me if retaining power over Price was key, but maybe it just means that Whiterose is losing mental acuity, that is, Whiterose having not seen enough moves ahead on the chess board of their scheme?  Or maybe it's more of a sign of Whiterose just losing power due to the natural order of social entropy.

*************

On 10/14/2019 at 9:49 PM, xaxat said:

The one thing that I can think of that would make the Congo project work for the show is fusion energy. A clean, almost limitless source of power. Owning that technology would mean they own the future of the world.

Oh yes! Whiterose building a working fusion reactor in the Congo would fit with the story thus far.

[possibilities]

On 10/16/2019 at 11:38 AM, benteen said:

Price was smart enough to realize that after killing Angela, Whiterose has no more leverage over him.  It's amazing that Whiterose also didn't realize this.

I think whiterose was counting on Price wanting to not be murdered himself.

[tennisgurl]

White Rose sure has been busy huh? Creating the entire internet to field their evil scheme is pretty impressive in its time commitment. 

So yet another personality arrives on the scene...or maybe even more? Like an entire peanuts galleries worth. I have some ideas on who this new third personality might be, but we will have to wait and see...

Poor Dom really is trapped between a rock and a hard place, I fear that the next person going off a bridge will be her. The Dark Army kind of remind me of the conspiracy in Prison Break, just everywhere all the time and constantly killing people for any little reason.

I actually did feel a bit bad for Pierce (shockingly!) and I always love the scenes between him and White Rose, especially as Pierce gives increasingly few fucks. 

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

So yet another personality arrives on the scene...or maybe even more? Like an entire peanuts galleries worth. I have some ideas on who this new third personality might be, but we will have to wait and see...

If all of Elliot’s alters are figures from his childhood, with perhaps young Darlene and young Angela still to show, it would show Esmail playing fair.  Because those Elliot knew twenty years ago have no possible identical versions in 2015/16. 

[Milaxx]

I went back and found the picture of kid Elliot. I noticed there are only 4 chairs whereas when Wellick was there it was an entire round table. I wonder if it is significant that there are only 4 chairs there. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Milaxx

[DoctorAtomic]

On 10/14/2019 at 7:17 PM, Slovenly Muse said:

Yeah, this show is so grounded in the realities of what technology means for our lives today, I can't see them going the route of introducing a literal time machine or something else that is too far removed from current possibilities.

It could be some type of quantum supercomputer. Quantum computing is actually a real topic.

I remember actually zero from Dom's plot and it looks like she does too because she looks confused af all the time.

On 10/16/2019 at 4:08 PM, Milaxx said:

That exactly what the Washington Township plant looks like. I guess nuclear reactors all pretty much look the same.

No, Washington is a fission reactor. There's no operational fusion reactors that produce electricity. The picture of the fusion reactor shown in this thread is the torus where the plasma is supposed to go. Fission reactors have solid fuel and don't look anything like that. On the show, I think they only showed the cooling towers.

The Congo project being fusion energy would be a good call too. I don't know how that fits into 'hacking time.'

Honestly, I think the show got too full of itself. There's a lot of ponderous talking and deliberate camera shots. I don't really know what's going on much except Whiterose wanting to rule the world. Elliot looks like he's sleepwalking and can barely stand up. The scenes with him and Darlene were agonizing.

Now there's more personalities? I'm worried the show is going to turn into Lost and become a huge mess and then people are going to prattle on about how is was really about 'Elliot's journey' or some such drivel.

Edited October 20, 2019 by DoctorAtomic

[AudienceofOne]

As I said after last week's episode, I don't believe for a second that time travel is real or possible. However, if you told me that Whiterose was a narcissistic megalomaniac who believed that he was inventing time travel I'd 100% believe that. In many ways, as a show, Mr Robot is about control: the ways we desire it and the ways in which we respond when we realise we don't have it. Every season has been about someone who wants control inventing a world where they believe they have it and then finding themselves wrong bout that. Elliot's alters are the ultimate signifier of that - the illusion of control.

It's entirely possible this is the moment that a person who believes they can control the world - and do - realises that time itself is out of their control. I would be very happy if we find out that Whiterose's "time machine" is a White Elephant. She's been conned.

Edited December 26, 2019 by AudienceofOne