Gwen-Stacys

You know what I meant :P Doesn't matter when he said it, he said it. Tywin might not follow his own advice, but Tyrion ironically does. And, to be fair, Tywin sent the mountain kill the Targaryen kids as a present to Robert. Ellia Martel wasn't supposed to be hurt, if memory serves correct. The Mountain did that on his own.

Tywin Lanister to Joffrey circa season 2 "When your enemy comes against you on the battelfield, you crush him. But when your enemy bends the knee, you help them back up." That is literally what Jon did this episode. He mentioned both Lord Karstark and Lord Umber dying on the battlefield, then brought attention to the new Lords (both children, by the way) that came to Winterfell with hopes of bending the knee. It is what Tywin ministered to do, verbatim.. Tyrion when he's counselling Dani on what to do with Jorah more or less tells her the same thing. Why? Because being merciful when people show contrition inspires loyalty. Besides that, who would Sansa have given the holdfasts to? A small Lord for Bear Island? A wildling? People who have no hope of holding it if those disposed families decided to revolt against them. Jon's point to Sansa is that they don't have time for that. Not with the Night king. Not that Sansa was wrong with her opinion, but that she was wrong for the time and place she chose to voice that opinion. He welcomes her disagreement so long as she shares it at the right time. They need to show a united front, and she more or less threw that out the window. She had time leading up to the meeting to say it to him, but, for some reason, Sansa decided to hold that one close to her vest. Book Sansa would've never done what Tv Sansa did this episode.

But she doesn't have any food to give. That was Jamie's entire argument against trudging north in the first place. The Tyrell's control most of the food in the south and they're firmly team Targ at the moment (because of Cersei's "kill my enemies" stance). Not to mention that to do so, they'd have to go through the power vacuum that Arya created in the Neck/Riverland Area. Like yes, Cersei has her eyes on Sansa in the north, but her getting to her any time soon is just not realistic. Especially now that Dani's officially landed in Westoros and is already reaching out to other families. Cersei has never used an assassin tho. Not one she didn't pay with copious amounts of sex, any way (and even THAT came back to bite her in the ass re: that person confessing all to The High Sparrow)

But Jon's decision in this episode was the exact opposite of what Robb did when he chose to execute Lord Karstark, thereby losing the support of the Karstark army. Robb's decision was way more inline with Sansa's suggestion than Jon's actual decision. Like a previous poster pointed out, Jon pulled a Tywin (strike down your enemies when they come against you, but help them back up when they choose to bend the knee). That's where my problem with that particular though process (that Jon is following in the footsteps of Robb and Ned) comes from. It's not true in the slightest.

Cersei's assassination of those high borns are also the reason she's surrounded by enemies with only Euron (someone who admits to turning on people when the timing suits him) as an ally. It's why the Tyrell's are backing Dani and it's also why her subjects aren't all that fond of her either. If it weren't for the Night King, Dani could probably take King's landing the same way she did Slaver's bay, by getting the disgruntled population to revolt.

I think that's giving Cersei way too much credit. That, and the Lannisters are broke. So who.s she paying what now? Again, Jon never discounted Cersei as a threat, he simply said that with the Night King on his way, she's a non-factor to him right now. Jon's on the same page that the audience (both book and tv show) have been told to be on since the very first scene ---the Night King is the be all-end all threat. The entire theme of this story (a song of ice and fire, and why all the people representing fire are slowly making their way to the icy north) is that all this squabbling over thrones and past slights are pointless and stupid. It's also why they had that random scene with the army of the dead (with a few giant-weights in tow) smack dab in the middle of the episode.

Robert was still technically in King's Landing and with a Cersei plant (her cousin and former fuck buddy Lancel.). Jon's point, I think, is that it won't matter if Cersei wants to murder them if the Night King murders them first anyway. Cersei can't do much until winter is over (Littlefinger at this point is seen as being Pro-Stark and everyone in the Vale is anti-Lannister as they believe they were the ones that poisoned their former Lord, Jon Arryn, in the first place, so she has nothing there). And while the North does have ports, it'd still take a lot for some random, non northerner to fight through mountains of snow, get passed the hundreds (if noth thousands) camped outside of Winterfell, through the doors, past Ghost (wherever the hell he's hiding out now) and to Jon/Sansa. Not until winter is over and Jon believes that this is the winter that'll last a generation. His point to Sansa isn't that she's wrong for believing Cersei a threat, just that Cersei isn't the most pressing threat to them at the moment.

I completely agree with this and don't understand where all this "Jon is condescending to Sansa" is coming from. He straight up told her to voice her disagreements with him, just not in public. This is also not a "just Jon" thing. Dani had the same issue with Jorah and Sir Barriston back in season 3. I also took his "by listening to you?" question as "so in order to be smart, I have to do everything you tell me to do?" more than condescension. And he says it teasingly and you see him visibly soften when she asks him if that would be so bad. Jon's decision to forgive the Karstarks and the Umbers seemed the more "kingly" decision than punishing children (because the head of both households are basically children) for their parent's decision. This also goes back to a lesson than Dani had to learn the hard way. You can't go around killing people who are loyal to you (the Karstarks especially are reputed to have always been ride or die for house Stark) or else people stop being loyal to you. Deposing an entire family would be a Cersei move....and Cersei's not exactly someone you should take leadership advice from. All of her solutions are temporary at best and short-sighted at worse.

"Sansa basically warns Jon to not ignore Cersei after she sends them a 'bend the knee or be destroyed' message. And Jon tells her that with winter there it would be hard for Cersei's army to get North (basically mirrored by Jaime down south). This sounds reasonable." Not just Jamie, but Cersei herself says this to Joffrey back in season 1. So...I don't get her threat here. It's not like she could supplant Jon and put someone else in his place /should/ her army make it north. And her plan to sit back and let the WWs kill everyone else isn't long sighted, it's short sighted and dumb. If the dead join the dead, then Dani, Jon, everyone else dying would only mean a bigger problem for her in the future.

Oh I don't disagree with your point at all. The Mikaelson's are horrible people, and I even said that Klaus' end of being forever alone was satisfying because he has been a horrible person for so long. My problem is Vincent keeping that this will be the last time he see's his daughter. Especially since his reasoning was that the Mikaelson's are arrogant and would throw a hissy fit over it...which Rebekah did, but they went through with it in the end. And it makes zero sense in that he left the full brunt of that revelation on Hayley's back. Meaning, she'd be the run having to be underhanded and take their child in the middle of the night and run. And unless he'd already told Marcel (which he hadn't), how did he think he was going to keep Klaus (and Freya too, for that matter) from tracking Hayley down after all? Like....it makes zero sense! The only way you could even reason it out is that he was just being petty for the sake of being petty....YMMV but that whole plot point I had a problem with and that was where my annoyance with Vincent (who I normally don't mind) lay.

I still feel like Hayley immediately spilling the beans to Klaus (who still went through the ceremony without question and didn't retaliate in any way....he just left) was meant to show that Vincent was wrong not to at least tell Klaus. Klaus, the vampire that even Vincent admitted not 3-episodes ago was trying to be a better person (while also being honest and telling him that he still had a waaaays to go). That, and it makes his heartfelt thank you to them in the end come off as very hollow (no pun intended) This show has done a hell of a lot better job at "redeeming" the bad brother than the mother show did. Who knew that facing all the bad sh*t that you've done, acknowledging why you did it and then coming to the conclusion that it still doesn't excuse it (and being downright contrite about it) would go a long way? I think part of it too is that Klaus doesn't end up with everything he wanted. In fact, he ended up with nothing; he can never see his daughter again or his family and the love of his life ---Caroline who?--- is dead and gone. Elijah (the noble brother) is truly free of his family, Rebekah and Marcel can be with each other, Freya has Keelin, Hope has friends and her mother, and Kol gets to be with his witch. The show should've ended here. Next season is sure to undo all the good this finale has done. JP is sure to go back on her "Trump winning made me rethink glorifying abusive relationships" stance and have Caroline and Klaus flirting it up all next season if only to appease the shippers. The Mikaelson's are gonna be forced back together, blah blah blah, another terrible ending.

I think she was feeling numb and on a quest to feel something again. Ehh...it makes sense to me? There are some NA people that are still kind of...very sore about that old pesky Manifest Destiny thing and the fact that their land essentially stolen and ancestors murdered by religious white men (all in the name of God). The end of times seems like a good a time as any to reclaim your sh*t. And not a cranioectomy, but a good old fashioned scalping. I'm liking this season a lot so far. I know there are some that are annoyed at how "political" it seems, but it's coming off as very natural to me. This is life in the ZA in a border town, makes sense that old prejudices would still be alive and well. It also makes it hard to call one group "the good group" and the other "the bad group". Also, how old is Alicia?! Isn't she only like 16-17? I know Alicia/Jake was pretty telegraphed, but he's damn near 30 if he went to law school!

The only thing Vincent has personally seen of Klaus is him sacrificing everything for his family. Hell, Klaus sent Hope away with Rebekah for the first 8 months of her life in order to protect her. He also saw Rebekha and Elijah literally stab Klaus in the back to keep Hope safe. This season, in fact, he saw Klaus willing to die for Hope and to trap the Hollow. He even complimented him on it. So I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree.

I actually didn't find Hayley's reasoning to be all that hypocritical tbh. Unlike most of the characters on this show and the mother show, her character has actually shown growth, so it makes sense that becoming a mother, losing Jackson, spending 5 years isolated with her daughter and always on the move would make her re-evaluate not only her life but her daughter's as well. She even goes so far as to say that she is a monster right along with the Mikaelsons, but that she wants to be better for Hope. Klaus even tempered himself for his daughter, while Elijah went 180. Elijah has always been "family above all else" and Hayley recognized that. She loves him, but she doesn't want to be a bad example for her daughter. She can't help the past, only the future. The show should've definitely ended here. Unlike TVD's finale, it worked for every single character. Elijah's free of his olbigation to family, Rebekah found her forever love, Kol gets to do whatever a Kol does, Hope is relatively happy with her mom and new friends. The only one to get a sad ending really is Klaus, but you could also say that him being forever separated from his Hope is penance for all the evil he's inflicted on others. I know Vincent is a favorite on this board, but definitely got on my nerves this episode. He doesn't owe Klaus anything, but he definitely should've told Klaus that he was never going to see his daughter again. He had no reason to believe that he, or any of the other siblings for that matter, wouldn't have gone through it. His entire beef with the Mikaelsons hinges on them always putting their family over everyone else (which, to be fair,.....most people do?). Klaus sacrificed himself so that his siblings could live, Elijah was willing to die to trap the Hollow so that Klaus wouldn't have to. His reasoning made zero sense outside of him just being petty. Julie Plec's gonna f*ck it all up, I know it. No more family dynamics, but get ready for ROMANCE above everything!!!

I think they're setting it up to send Hope to Mystic Falls to Caroline's school for Peculiar Children. I don't see her taking off again, at least not with Klaus. Unlike last time, they seem to have a mutual respect and he actually defers to her a lot of the time. She seems to be appreciative of how hard he's been trying to suppress his Klaus-ness for Hope. That, and I don't see Hope being alright with being separated from her father again.

So.....how long before Alicia (with an "I") and Jake hook up? And in that vein, how long before Madison and Troy have a creepy quasi-hook up? I'm liking this season more than I did last season and I think part of that is that everyone is together (minus Victor, Daniel, an Ophelia)

I think most people came to that conclusion because out of everyone, Troy kept Madison and Alicia (the two obviously white women) away from the kill room, while they took Travis a very very brown man (they originally assumed to be Mexican and was a little taken aback to find that he was Madison's husband). Nothing to do with them being preppers. Cliff Curtis himself mentioned that his whole family are preppers and he is very much not white. So while they may not be white supremacist....I don't think they like Mexicans very much. I hope we get more insight into to Travis' and Alicia's relationship in the future. I wonder if she feels like his death is her losing another father figure and having to deal with what that means for her mother's mental well-being.

I believe they said Marcel's mom died giving birth to him. And given how slaves were treated like little more than cattle, it would make sense for him to never know if he had any other family (a grandmother, a grandfather, cousins, etc). One of the reasons my family is so hesitant to do ancestery.com is because we know once we go back far enough, there won't be much to learn. We already know my great great grandma was sold at a young age and by the time she was freed, she never found her mom or any other family. It's just the way it was.

Well I mean...they consider each other family so that makes sense? Freya and Elijah reneged on their deal to resurrect Davina in order to save Klaus/Hayley. Hayley was responsible for the death of 12 Hybrids to find out information about their family. Marcel made permanent enemies of the witches because of Davina. Elijah killed Marcel because he thought he was a threat. Elijah was even prepared to kill Klaus when he though Klaus had killed their siblings. FAMILY has always been the common factor between every single character on this show. It's been that way since the begining. The main theme of the show has always been how far people are willing to go for family. Except maybe Vincent. He was willing to go pretty dark for his family (summoning the Hollow) but couldn't go all the way because of the cost of it. This season seems to be dealing with the fallout of what happens when you go all in for family and screw over everyone else in the process. And yes, Klaus was an ass, but Klaus has always been a smug a$$hole. Though, I would've thought Davina would've jumped at the chance to sacrifice Elijah in Klaus place. He was the one the ruined her chance to resurrect Kol (the first time) and was an accomplice in her sacrifice, and was the one willing to kill Marcel (Klaus still can't). But she's always had a hate boner for Klaus (understandable) that eclipsed her hatred of everyone else. Still don't understand how she thought Hope would ever be okay with it. And that's why I think Hayley was so anti-sacrificing Klaus. Because of Hope. It was nice to learn that Hope's super-witchiness didn't just come from her Mikaelson side. Hayley's ancestors were powerful witches at one point too...before they got cursed. Also: "I will never forgive you." "I never expected you to. I certainly never forgave myself."

I took that as more of a brute force type of spell, like her just throwing her own (considerable) magic against it until it broke. I believe we're supposed to think of Freya as on par if not more powerful than Davina was when she had all the harvest girl's powers as well as her own. Freya's magic was so powerful that it was physically hurting her. Dahlia had to dampen it, siphoning some of it off for herself, while she taught her how to control it. And even then, witch-Rebecca was terrified of how powerful she was before she woke up for her century nap. But as for non-speaking spells, Freya isn't the first witch in this episode series to do wordless magic. And they've shown her chanting numerous times in order to do spells. Nah, I get the feeling that Sophya's either going to bite it at the end of this season or she and Klaus will have an agreement at best.

It was cold, but also the truth. And fairly level headed given that she'd just tried insinuate him in her grief over losing Lily. He didn't leave her for Nora, he left her for his dad because he was the chief of police and probably knew what to do. I loved this episode, but I love every Nora centered episode. Also, more Nora and Erika scenes, please. It's always magic

Freya could very well be bisexual. On TVD we see that Rebekah isn't opposed to sleeping with girls, it isn't beyond the realm that Freya just never got a chance to explore to full spectrum of her sexuality. Same! Mostly because I don't know how she'd react to him or even what Hayley has told her about her big brother (IDC what anyone says, Marcel is Hope's sibling, blood or no). Does she know that Marcel is the reason she was without her family for so long? I heard rumblings that So, if she knows what Marcel did, I can't see her taking kindly to him. Which, understandable... Hmmm...good point. That whole interaction didn't sit well with me, even with Elijah's whole new no-nonsense-attitude. And it really felt funny juxtaposed to Hayley's request of him last episode that he do better in regards to other people.

The only sire line broken is Klaus'. Rebekah's and Elijah's are still connected to them. And, technically, Freya didn't murder anyone. The ancestors killed Davina the first two times and Davina "killed herself" the third time. Freya and Elijah basically left her at there mercy. What they did was akin to Hayley setting up those 12 hybrids to be sacrificed on TVD: a very f*cked up thing to do, even if you can technically say that you didn't kill anyone.

I think the point is that there are no good guys (outside of Josh and maybe Vincent) and if there are (again, Josh and Vincent) then Marcel definitely isn't one of them. The Hollow is here because of Marcel...twice. First, Vincent summoned it because of him then the wolves, Kinney, etc were seduced by it, again, because of him. Marcel held/holds public executions of people he thinks are acting outside of his rule. He rules using intimidation and fear the same way his father, Klaus, does. He just thinks that he's better because he has his no kids rule. But even in this episode we see that no one (outside of vampires) sees Marcel as good people or even a "ruler" worthy of their trust. The wolves hate him and so do the witches (they were moved by Hayley to help). Only Vincent seems on friendly terms with him and that might even be terse at best. Edit to add: I think the Hollow is part of Supernatural Folklore. I remember reading about it in an Anita Blake book.

I disagree. The main theme of the show is family and how they shape you as a person. Klaus is, more or less, Marcel's father and a lot of things he does shoes that. I.E. making a spectacle of killing Jane Ann in season 1, latching onto Davina the way that he did, his constant monologue about how his father Klaus did him wrong, and the fact that he knew the Mikaelson's were alive this whole time and still did nothing about it. His relationship with Klaus right now (who, in all fairness, wasn't involved in any of the transgressions Marcel is currently punishing him for (the sacrifice of an already dead Davina/Marcel's "death") reads a lot like Klaus' and Elijah's when they were first introduced on TVD. Klaus blamed Elijah for a loss and he spent years (well, centuries) punishing him for it by making him think that all their siblings were truly dead. Besides, like the poster above me said, all of Marcel's issues with the originals was instigated by him. And Davina's ultimate demise was done because of her own actions (using Hayley to kill off Kara Winn and the other witches) and her relationship with Marcel. Heck, the ancestors only went after Kol because of his relationship with Davina. Off topic, will Marcel's bite even kill Klaus? Klaus is a hybrid and has never been affected by werewolf venom (even before, right?), so why would Marcel's uber strain do anything to him? It makes sense that it would kill his siblings (even though werewolf venom can't kill them, they still suffer the side effects), but not Klaus