Alexander Pope

I am not sure they're taller--I think Joey is just short. And that makes him look even more like an old school movie star to me--his tininess. The "tennis grunt" sounded xrated to me, like she had been up to something in the limo!

You absolutely nailed what was bugging me the most about that excruciating hot tub scene. The point of the questions is to open up and start conversing! not just to take turns like robots!! Emily showed no empathy, she was completely self-absorbed, and I don't think she was interested in getting to know him at all. He was seething with rage after a while, but I don't blame him. She started out pissed off and stayed that way. I thought it was hilarious when Becca and Austin's mom bonded over their shared Connecticut lineage. Could things have gotten any WASPier, and for a Jewish girl no less?

Judith speaking up for Blanche at the big Knopf dinner and Blanche then speaking up for herself gave me all the feels. I have no idea if such a thing really happened, but what a great love story those two had, even though at times it was abusive on Blanche's part. It's still rare, in my world at least, for women of different generations to give each other credit.

I know I sound like a broken record, but I think the issue with Emily is that she is an empty shell. She is uncomfortable with Brennan, and I don't blame her, but nothing she says seems real and it all seems performative and forced. I don't think she is capable of saying how she really feels either to him or her "friends." She stays on the surface to a frustrating degree, and he isn't helping. That may be why she is such a hard partier.

Did Emily and Brennan say even one thing in their conversations with each other during the honeymoon of any significance? They never got past platitudes and idle chit chat. When they had eight million shots that helped a bit, but not much. The lack of attraction may be in part because they're both incredibly boring, even for this show.

is it just me or did many of the women look worse at the Rose Ceremony this week? Davia looked harsh and a bit scary with her hair pulled back. Genevie's hairline is slipping down her forehead in a way that confuses me. Even Kylie is looking kinda rough. Is it just the effect of the beach?

So much word to this!! when Joan said she felt "invisible" till she met Gerry, I took that to mean that the former model was used to being the hottest woman in the room and couldn't handle the natural aging process which had rendered her just regular beautiful. I think it was a very superficial remark and I'm sorry the others were echoing it. this observation comes to you courtesy of a 62 year old woman living in LA--so I know whereof I speak.

"The films and series about Austen's novels give a wrong impression - she wasn't romantic at all. Men who were sexually attractive, Wickham, Willoughby and Henry Crawford, were villains." A friend of mine who is an Austen expert argues very compellingly that Mr. Knightley is both hot and good in bed, and you can tell in the dancing scenes.

He has totally eclipsed Chris Harrison, and he is hotter than any guy on any of the Bachelor franchise shows. He does a lot with a little.

I read in a comment on Vulture that Theresa looks like Dobby and now I can't unsee it.

Emily's vows were the worst I have ever seen in the history of this show (and I have watched every season). Lindz, you are totally right that starting your vows by saying you have never had a relationship is not a smart move, to put it mildly!! But things got worse as she went on to say that she looked forward to him proving that she had done the right thing and making her feel good about herself for the rest of her life, and then using a horse riding metaphor and shouting WOOT when it was over like she was at a bar!! I'm amazed he didn't run away at that point. I like him--I'm a New Yorker so that's part of it, but I also think he has class, as do his parents, and she has absolutely none.

Please tell that to my doctor, LOLL. In LA nobody is willing to endorse this truth!

having read the rest of this thread, I now see Mr. Burns as a raptor too! that was a genius comparison.

I lost a lot of respect for Kathy during this episode, and now I think with her hunch and her beady eyes she kinda looks like a raptor.

I was wondering that too! I have thoughts on the season 17 intro and nowhere to put them! specifically on that one guy's hair, LOL.

Especially because she was the villain in the previous triangle! she broke Rodney's heart! why is she so innocent all of a sudden??

This has been such a great discussion and I've so appreciated everyone's takes on Season 2. For me what really stood out about Season 2 was the idea/theme of beauty--how much beauty there is in the world--in Chicago, which Sid takes in on that amazing boat ride and tries to recreate the beauty she sees in her dishes, in Copenhagen (the most beautiful place Carmy has ever seen), in the dishes fine dining chefs create (so that however good a deep dish is, it needs that extra touch to allow the family who gets it to "eat with their eyes"), and in the characters who are all "bruised and beautiful" (such a perfect phrase, I agree). I think this season wants Carmy to get past the trauma that equates beautiful food with trauma behind the scenes (which we saw with Donna's rage in FISHES) to connect beauty to the good in others, It makes sense to me that Marcus's time in Copenhagen exposed to so much beauty in and out of the kitchen ended with him doing a good deed for a stranger, and it makes sense that it took Richie becoming part of a team dedicated to beauty and service to present himself as beautiful. I think the moment in Forks when Richie saw them comping the couple who had saved for years to be able to come was also beautiful, as was the omelette Sid made for Abby--because true beauty can't be commodified, though of course people will also pay through the nose for it!

My 24 year old son, who seems more mature than poor Milton (whom I really like and seems like a jeri-curled sheep headed to the slaughter), had a very insightful reading of Johnie's double speak to Izzy and Chris. I think Johnie was twisting her words for sure, but in a weird way she was speaking her truth. To Izzy she was saying, my true love was the addict whom I never got over and then I always settled for dull guys I didn't love. Now I don't want to settle anymore. To Chris she was saying, I always was drawn to exciting guys but that was part of a bad pattern and now I want you, dull guy! Either way, not a good look and especially insulting to Chris. Lydia is much more clearly a liar who tells different people different things. She told Aliyah that WE wanted to start from ground zero (referring to her and Uche meeting in the pods), when it was she who did and he shut it down. She told Milton that UCHE wanted to start from ground zero and SHE shut it down. I can see why Aliyah left--getting away from her would be reason enough, but Lydia gave Aliyah plenty of reason to doubt Uche. Lydia also has been really weird in the pods with Milton. Rarely smiles, seems bored, low energy. And then tells him she wants him so bad, meant to be--where is all that coming from except to stay on the show?

Dotun is not classically handsome but he has an ease and an elegance that I find really attractive. When he kneeled to propose to Charity, I gave him five stars. Best kneel in the show's history IMO!

I think Dotun said that first! not a good opening gambit. He was more nervous than Joey and less smooth/eloquent. I am glad Charity's mom was wrong! He also looks like Carmy from THE BEAR. And much better with the short hair.

I think she definitely slept with Joey. They certainly made it look that way! and that seems like a major part of their bond.

Joey's confession to Charity about being a people pleaser made sense to me. I agree with others who say he looks exhausted and I think he wants this all to be over. He is sincere about her but the cameras seem to be wearing him out since he is always performing a bit already. Whereas Dotun didn't even realize what show he is on and is utterly natural in front of the cameras. I was swayed by her declarations of love for Joey but Dotun is definitely the one. He came from a different "realer" universe and it shows. Dleighg--our messages crossed. I couldn't agree more!

Charity constantly calling guys "gentle," and calling one guy "gentle and comfortable," made it sound like she was rating toilet paper!

I was baffled as to why Charity wore heels, and yes clunky ones, everywhere including scenic parks by the water or in woods, and even on a tennis court! She was always dressed for cocktails. Luckily she had a tennis outfit waiting for her on the Joey date.

"So disappointed in the poem! It was completely cookie-cutter, had bland craft-store-framing sentiments, and incorporated nothing related to what Charity or Joey said, even in a watered-down fashion." There has to be a special award for someone who can take the cliches Charity and Joey uttered and reduce them to even more stale cliches!