Alexander Pope

I was on a much-needed vacation for the start of this season and was amazed how little it mattered that this was my first episode and I didn't know who anyone was. I have come here to comment on the cardigans. Sean (the blonde on the two on one who can't believe that "girls" may not love him back) is clearly auditioning for DEAD POET'S SOCIETY with all his cardigans. But the winner is clearly Xavier whose cardigan festooned with lavender flames blew my mind.

My favorite moment was Nicole's face when Chris flat out said that she was very opinionated/judgmental and he was more open-minded. She was not best pleased! She exercised major self-control there and I think she may have had one of her little "upsets" during the break. Still, he looked relaxed and happy and the fact that he could say that was a good sign. I also really liked Jasmine's friend and found myself thinking that Arris might have liked her too, given his "type."

the best thing about this show, which I found more interesting than most of last season (admittedly a very low bar), was watching everyone else's facial and other reactions to Lindsey's rage fits. That was very entertaining!!

I am continuing to obsess about the Kendall/Roman hug and I think it is the emotional version of Wittgenstein's duck/rabbit or that dress that looks blue or gold to different people. Kendall could have been strong-arming/abusing Roman, as many have suggested. But Roman was also seeking out pain (pain and fighting are what he knows and needs, as was the case with him throwing himself into the crowd), and appeared to be grinding his head into Kendall's jacket (although at a certain point he wanted to let go and Kendall wouldn't let him). Let's not forget that Roman was worrying that he didn't look wounded enough! He thought that if he looked too healed up, people would wonder why he wasn't chosen as CEO. So to some eyes, Kendall did him a favor by reopening the wound. I love and am frustrated by the ambiguity in equal measure!

But Connor was at that dinner too, doing a really funny imitation of his dad. It showed us that there was a relationship there we didn't know about, and that the other three kids didn't have.

Let's not forget that early on in this episode, Shiv called Tom and asked if they could get back together having seen the worst in each other, and to me she seemed sincere. He said he didn't know and gained the upper hand there too. ETA: Others have commented on this, posted before reading the whole thread.

When Kendall hugged Roman after Roman melted down about how "it should have been me," Roman was in agony, both emotionally and physically. It was a weirdly tender and violent moment. Did Roman deliberately open his cut during that long Jesus/Judas-like embrace? I also thought that when Matson told Tom he would rather work with the guy who put the baby in the lady than the pregnant lady it won the prize for the most sexist moment in this thoroughly sexist universe.

Same!! Think of the drive throughs they could enjoy together! Burgers all around!

"When explaining why he wanted a divorce, Shaq emphasized that he was in the marriage 100% (although we have seen the footage that disproved that), but during the After Party (which I rarely watch but did watch this week), he finally admitted that maybe he wasn't there 100% and some of what he saw in the episodes about his interactions opened his eyes." I couldn't watch the Afterparty because like everyone else I was sick to death of this show and these people. But I am glad to hear that Shaq stopped portraying himself as the endlessly giving martyr. Yes, Kirsten is no prize--she is a mannequin (good call there!) and she is selfish. That creepy smile on her face when he was dumping her was very unsettling. But he was, as others have said, extremely needy and she could never do enough to please him. She could have been the one to say what he did at decision day--I kept trying to please you and nothing worked. I also think he was really cold to her and I will never forget that moment when she said to him, I don't think you even like me. I don't think he did!! So both of them failed IMO. We did see a genuine love match this season--Clint and Hank!! Seeing Clint say a goodbye, however temporary, to Hank, really warmed my heart more than any human interaction on this show.

There was a great moment in Kendall's speech--which I enjoyed far more than I should have because of Strong's performance and Kendall's unexpected eloquence (of course Mencken dug it)--when he was orating about how much Logan made, and said "he made me and my siblings." Did anyone catch Caroline's face at that remark? So classic! If Kendall could have been born from the head of Zeus (i.e. Logan), that would have been perfect given the sexism of this family.

Chelsea's mother seemed nice and maybe she was nervous, but it was cringey how often she interrupted Kwame during their one on one chat. She barely let him talk!

Oh I think Whitney was feeling him for real. He looked like he wanted to eat her alive right before they kissed--if she didn't like him, she would have run away! I sure would have!

I would love for someone to make me that exact dinner!!

I completely agree that Kirsten has gotten a bit of a raw deal when it comes to family. This convo reminded me of something Shaq did that really pissed me off. When she told him that she had arranged a family visit and her mother and brother were coming, he immediately responded by complaining that it had taken so long and expressing upset and concern about that. Dude, why not take the win and express excitement that they're coming! No compassion for her, only whining about how he felt slighted. I'm not a fan of hers but I really felt for her at that point. He never lets things go and he doesn't try to see her side. I'm glad she spoke up and told him how isolated she felt--I get it!

Gina complained that Clint cooked dinner but not FOR HER. What does she do, ever, for him?? At least he cooks and takes care of the dog! She and Kirsten both fail to see that marriage is a two way street. Though at least Kirsten offered Shaq salmon and broccoli that one time.

I appreciate your generosity! I do hope they're happy. It was her overbearing advice that really poisoned everything for me.

Nicole definitely got on my last nerve this episode and I second the wish that the group gang up and throw her in a pool or lock her out of the vacation house and let the bears eat her. But Chris got on my other last nerve by repeatedly asking if there was anything else he could do to help her process all her emotions. Dude grow a pair!! I also hated the way he told Pastor Cal he was completely over his past and Nicole was still hung up on hers. Like he is a paragon of emotional health. Blech!!! I can't stand either of them and their co-dependency.

I agree with this completely. The scene between Willa and her mother, who was also a terrific actress, was also very telling in this regard. When her mom said "he'll take care of you," there was a lot of history behind those words and that look.

The way Whitney was behaving you would have thought she was Joan of Arc being left to burn at the stake by staying. I have never seen so much drama instigated by one person! what could Duka (sic?) possibly have said in private to get her to this point??

I have some thoughts on Airris's bout of covid. When he rated Jasmine's nursing a "7 out of 10," I was done with him, and I was already close. Also, we kept seeing shots of her coming in and covering him with blankets, etc., and neither of them were masked. He was very contagious at that point--WTF. Glad they're both ok now.

You know what you say here also makes me wonder--has there ever been a Bachelorette quite as HOT as Ariel? She is "sultry" as one person said, and she is what in the old days we would have called a vamp. I don't think Bachelorettes in the past have had that kind of sex appeal. They're more athletic, more girl next door (and of course YMMV and some in the past have been sexier than others).

But without the family episodes, we would have missed Dean's crazy family and JoJo's mother swigging from a bottle of champagne, and so many other wonderful moments in morgues and other strange locations. They are my favorite part of the show!

I completely agree that Greer was toast but I felt bad for her all the same. Her crying was EPIC and strange and went on forever--that whispery voice! what was that?? It's horrible to say but I liked her most when she was on her way out.

Ali's dress, which I would call greige or just whatever MEH would be as a color, was one of the ugliest dresses I have ever seen worn on this franchise. It matches that horrible black bathing suit Kylee wore in looking uncomfortable and making the wearer look "trussed" like a chicken, plus it did absolutely nothing for her in terms of color/fit/fabric.

And I think that is exactly what she wants. It makes her feel good about herself and also in control of the relationship.