statsgirl

That photo recap is awesome. And I appreciate her sympathy to Felicity: My heart breaks for Felicity, who wants so badly to feel important and heard. You can tell by her face as she leaves that she takes note of the fact that she is not included in a conversation that she previously would have been part of. Because that is EXACTLY what is going on. Palmer is getting the poison out with a trusted friend and Felicity is scratching an itch she got from too much fern cuddling. That’s IT. As a matter of fact, feel free to imagine a cardboard cutout of Oliver right next to Felicity every time they interact from now until the inevitable breakup. They will likely try to give this a go in the interest of not admitting that neither of them is the least bit interested in a relationship with each other and dragging out the Olicity angst, but the Ray character is problematic in so many ways, and this only makes the situation worse.

Maybe because it seems like MG thinks that what they are giving us in season 3 is the good stuff, and what's in 2.5 is fan pandering.

Speaking of Nyssa and her relationship with her father... when she hears that Ra's knocked her out of the succession and offered it to Oliver of all people, I hope she kills them both. Well maybe not Oliver but wow, way to dismiss your daughter who has been training all her life to be your Heir.

At this point, I'd even take anything after 3x09 being a pain-induced dream. It still wouldn't get rid of Sara's death or Felicity kissing Ray, but we wouldn't have Laurel suited up and in the lair, Oliver teaming up with MM and saving him, and Ra's offer, Also would avoid the future storylines of Oliver accepting the offer, the Flying Atom and Raylicity.

With Oliver though, Felicity did initiate the "don't kill people who are the single-parents of young children" when she walked out on him and she's been a major force in making Oliver into the hero he is... I mean was before this season. (The stupidity of choosing MM repeatedly over Thea and innocent people hurts his hero status.) She also started the "don't touch me or dangle maybes you're not going to carry through" when she walked away or shuts Oliver down when he keeps trying to play his game. With Ray, as quarks pointed out, What Ray Wants, Ray Gets. It may take some time and Felicity might resist for part of an episode, but the roadmap in their interactions has always been set by Ray.

MsSchadenfreude, I'm not quarks but my problem with it that it just shows how much Felicity has been dis-engaged from Team Arrow and everything that they're about at this point. Dangerous assassin in a cage? Let someone else worry about it, I'm off to my outside plot with Ray. I just want to clarify my earlier post that I think if there is any cheating done, it will be emotional cheating on Ray, not Oliver. From Ray's comments, we're given the impression that he is genuinely falling for Felicity whereas Felicity is either 1. in love with Oliver but can't have him or 2. too messed up and just looking for someone to give her some comfort (since her real friends Diggle and Roy are too busy with other people). The reviewer agrees. Her point was that they way they are writing Felicity makes her look like a gold digger, which she certainly is not. I disagree, and so does Stephen Amell. As he said, it's not the action sequences that make the show, it's the emotional beats and the interactions among the characters. If you don't care about the characters, you won't care if they're in danger in the action sequences. This is the mistake Agents of SHIELD made in its first season and what it corrected in s2 when there was more about the characters other than Skye and less pure action. It's also the mistake Sleepy Hollow made in s2 by focusing on two characters few people cared about and the ratings took a nosedive. Arrow took off when the relationships gelled, when Felicity joined Oliver and Diggle (according to David Ramsey), when we started caring enough about Oliver in his relationships with Tommy and other characters, and people started caring about whether he won the battle or not, instead of just how cool the suit and fights looked. Because she has to babysit someone for whom at this point she only has minimal feelings. If it were Oliver, Roy or Diggle, she would be doing it out of real affection and caring for them. With Ray, it's because she works for him and because a good person should help anyone hurting himself as Ray is doing. At QC with Oliver, she was an equal and could decided whether or not to bring him coffee but if she decided not to, it wouldn't hurt Oliver that much. With Ray. he's in such a bad state that she'd be a monster to turn around and let him work himself to death, so there's really no choice here.

I'd be okay with him not admitting it. What I'm not okay with is when he hears it, instead of addressing the problem, he doubles down. His last reply to "When are we going to get Thea/Felicity scenes?", which he himself said were coming, was to say 'every time you ask, I move them back another season. Now they're in season 12'. When people say that Felicity needs a friend she can talk to about her feelings now that Diggle is talking to Oliver, his response is to put her in a scene with Laurel. After the angry response to the last Felicity/Laurel scene, which MG did admit took him by surprise, the solution is not to do again the thing that people didn't like before. The complaints this season have been about stupid plotlines, the breaking up of O/D/F, stupid Oliver and miserable Felicity. He doesn't need to fix all of them, and it's going to be hard to fix the plotlines since they're long term. But having a few scenes with Felicity and Diggle talking again, and O/D/F working together again instead of Instead, the spoilers are of Felicity still being isolated with Ray or Laurel, and no Team O/D/F. These are the voices of the canaries in the coal mine though.

I think Laura Hurley does a good job in her review of Nanda Parbat. I quoted from it on the relationships thread about how she seems smaller this season than before, but the whole review is worth reading. This part made me sad

I've just been reading Laura Hurley's review of Nanda Parbat. It's wonderful overall, and I think it addresses a number of issues that have been a problem in the writing of Felicity's relationship with Ray this season. Here's a taste:

You've reminded me of Laurel saying "everyone leaves me", you know, like Tommy and Sara did, by dying. It's true, at first Felicity would have thought that Cooper left her by committing suicide, which is more agency than having a rebar fall through you. But in fact, he faked his death to get away from her. You're right, every man leaves her, from her father to Cooper to Oliver. Maybe with Ray, she just wanted a few moments of oblivion before he moves on too.

Then that's what Kresiburg and Berlanti should be doing. Someone, anyone, on these shows should be thinking behind copying from the comic books or the Batman and Iron Man movies. I'm okay with Ray designing the suit itself, he's got the science degrees and the obsession to do it. We saw that Felicity got the destroyed tech back after they blew up the Applied Sciences division and she's the one Ray went to in The Return to fix the problem he was having with the processor. I wish they had shown more of Felicity being in charge of whatever at PT but at least Ray gave her more to do than Oliver did as his EA. I think they asked Felicity to do too many different things this season. For Oliver, she was her usual IT girl and also a major part of this year's relationship, and also part of the moral authority of the team along with Diggle. With Barry on The Flash, she was the glue that helped put the team together. With Ray, she was his tech VP, his suit-helper and a lover interest. With everything going on in the show, there wasn't enough time with her to flesh out all these roles to we were left to make assumptions..

Marc Guggenheim said in one of his nefarious tweets that Felicity isn't aware that she's in love with Oliver yet. (I take this as proof that we're involved in different shows.) The other thing I thought of was in 210 when she was talking about Barry's coma and said "finally a guy is interested in me and he ends up in a coma". A few episodes later when Caitlyn said that Iris had been visiting Barry a lot, Felicity said something about even in a coma guys move on from her. After all, her father, the most important male relationship in a child's life, left her and left her after they'd done a lot of bonding. So it sounds like she really doesn't see herself as someone men are interested in and want to be with. When Oliver finally told her he loved her in a way that wasn't back-handed, he kissed her on the forehead and left, and since he got back he's been shutting the door in her face again and again. So maybe she does think that she's not lovable and Ray sleeping with her, or rather not sleeping but just the sex part, is recreational sex on his part rather than feelings for her. On the other hand, she did have that whole relationship with Cooper that contradicts everything I just said.

Even Roy would be better to talk to than Laurel because Roy's been through more with Felicity (remember the scenes over Sara's body?) and he's also seen Oliver being a dick. Plus, he's got a healthy relationship with Thea, which is more than Laurel ever had even with Tommy. But MG wants to rehab Laurel and because he doesn't understand why Laurel's behaviour to Felicity in the past might be a problem, he's taking a shortcut, assuming that if Laurel is finally nice to Felicity, we'll like her. But Felicity's essence to make other characters likable has been severely diluted this season.

Laurel spent two seasons if not hating Felicity then treating her like yesterday's garbage. It will take another two seasons of Laurel being nice to Felicity before I'll even consider buying that they can talk to each other about Oliver. It makes more sense for Felicity to talk to Diggle, or Roy or Caitlyn, people who have actually been nice to Felicity before ep 310, rather than Laurel. Felicity has absolutely nothing in common with Laurel other than they're both women, they have to work together and at one time were both attracted to Oliver. If Laurel needs a BFF, it makes much more sense for it to be Thea. The last two times Felicity and Laurel had a heart-to-heart, in Midnight City and Canaries, it left me disgusted that Felicity is being such a doormat. I don't know how many more hits her character can take this season. It's like MG is deliberately trying to tank this show. People want more O/D/F -- he says they have to move beyond that. They say they want better characterization and plotting, he throws in more scenes of Felicity propping Ray and Laurel and Oliver being an idiot. They say they miss Sara, he throws in more Laurel. I'm beginning to think there's no karma.

But Felicity doesn't know that he listened to her and started to repair his relationship with Thea. IMO, it doesn't count if he doesn't let Felicity know that what she says matters to him. From her perspective, all he does is keep shutting her out. These are just basic good manners though, things you do with your friends. Diggle supported her too during the Cooper drama, and so did Ray by giving her all the time off she wanted. Oliver has no right to hold her relationship with Ray against her, not that he knows what it is, and absolutely he should stop touching her if he's not going to follow through on the implicit assumptions. He doesn't lie to Diggle either. The one thing is that he helped Barry when she wanted him to, but that was on The Flash, written by a Flash writer. Every interaction Oliver and Felicity have had since he got back has been more toxic than supportive. I'm not mad at Oliver or Ray, but I am furious with MG who thinks this is great fun.

No, she was actually in a relationship with Oliver. It sucked as a relationship because they kept lying to each other and themselves, but it was a relationship. Oliver has never let Felicity get close, only once let her kiss him back. That's not in the same universe. Also, sometimes two people have nothing emotionally in common and forcing them into these kinds of scenes is so inorganic, it hurts both characters. In this case, especially Felicity. Why would she talk about personal things to the woman who for two seasons treated her like dirt on her shoe?

What if Oliver and Diggle got killed on the mission? Was everyone just going to leave Nyssa in the cage indefinitely? Was there no back-up plan? Was there no gratitude for helping them save the city against Slade's soldiers? Once they had (not tortured) Nanda Parbat's location out of her, why didn't they at least give her some privacy. Maybe a toilet too. Poor Katrina Law. Now it's Nyssa's turn to be written for plot rather than character.

God, yes. That's what happens when you put more than 4 people in the Arrow cave.

I think so. Apparently only men are allowed not to be locked up, just like men get to live. Look at Ra's, who should be killing Oliver for defying him, and instead he's taking away the succession from Nyssa and giving it to Oliver,

Nope. I got the impression that Ray thought he'd never care for anyone other than Anna but as he comes to appreciate Felicity as more than just a really smart person, he's taken aback. He doesn't really want to have feelings for another person but the more time she spends with him and helps him and now it taking care of him, that's what's happening. In this triangle, Ray is the only one I have sympathy for. I think they've written Felicity's role badly because they wanted to have their cake (Felicity loves Oliver) and eat it too (Felicity is attracted to Ray, especially when he does Oliver-like things like the office salmon ladder). If she really were in love with Oliver, I don't think she'd be giving Ray an appraisal, no matter how expensive the dress he gets her. I don't think Felicity is bitter, she just wants it to stop hurting. Oliver refuses to talk to her much less listen to her, he tells her he loves her and then walks away, he won't give her any agency in their interactions (you can't even call it a relationship at this point). And meanwhile there's Ray, who listens to her, who values her brain rather than making her an EA, and who does what she tells him to do (take a shower, eat something) and even better, tells her that she was right. How can that not be balm to her wounded soul? I completely understand why Felicity did what she did. It's what coming next that I want to skip. Here's why this triangle bugs me: Remember when Oliver and Sara lunged at each other because Sara was hurt by Laurel yelling at her (you should have treated her better when you had the chance, Laurel) and Oliver was.. I'm not sure what. Still angry at Laurel? Anyway, they lunged at each other in 2x13 and instead of a night of comfort sex, they got into a relationship. Felicity was hurt because she felt excluded from the scarred fighters and because Oliver had told her he couldn't be in a relationship with someone he cared about but here he was doing just that. In the end though, it was Sara who was hurt the most because she thought that she and Oliver had a chance when really by that time Oliver belonged to Felicity even if he refused to acknowledge it. Sara, who already was feeling worthless because of her past, felt even more so and went off to sacrifice herself to the LoA to do some good in helping to save the city. (We'll just ignore that boarding the boat scene, maybe she realized that it was only Nyssa who truly cared for her.) Now we're in 3x15 and Felicity lunges at Ray. So most likely we're going to get hurt Oliver, torn Felicity, confused/hurt Ray. Maybe Oliver will see Felicity with Ray and decide that since he's lost her, he'll take Ra's up on his offer. Maybe Felicity will realize that even though Ray treats her much better, she still loves Oliver and dumps Ray, leaving him hurt. Meanwhile, we have a bunch of episodes where they're acting uncomfortable around each other and communicating even less than they do now. It was bad enough before but I'm going to have to skip every scene with Oliver and Felicity now. Is anyone who likes Olicity looking forward to this?

I can see them ending on a cliff-hanger, but would they really end on such a depressing note? The point of a season finale is to get the audience to tune in for the next season. But they're going to have to get Ray off the show for the spinoff pilot.

I appreciate that SA wanted to do a nice Team Arrow video on his FB page but seeing them together having fun just empathizes how much the show is not giving me what I want. It's like the 2.5 comics, it's got everything that I want from Arrow, none of which I'm getting on the show itself. As much as I loved Firefly and Chuck, I well never be able to see Adam Baldwin on my screen again without wanting to smack him. Judgmental ass. .

I meant that it would be cheating Ray because he thinks she's ready to move on to a relationship with him when she's not. Unless they both agree that they're in a mutual rebound relationship, him from Anna and her from Oliver (although I don't think that's the case on his part any more), and it means nothing more than comfort sex to both.

All these speculations make me even less inclined to want to watch. I have enough troubles in my own life. I think if Diggle were to get killed, an in-character Oliver would be more likely to do a "scorched earth" on the LoA rather than join them. But also think that Diggle/DR is too popular to kill On the other hand, I worry about baby Sara. If Akio in the flashbacks gets killed, they may want to parallel it with her and cause tragedy and break-up between Diggle and Lyla, thereby solidifying Oliver's beliefs about not being able to have happpiness in his life. Sure. He's already made Oliver stupid this season, let's turn this into a very bad romcom.

I think what makes a great couple on screen is different from what makes a great couple in real life, although sometimes the same things apply to both. On screen couples need a visible spark that makes people want to tune in to see them that real life couples don't. Sure she's allowed to move on, just not when she's still in love with the first guy. As I said, it this is a one night stand, I have absolutely no problem with it. But if she starts getting into a real relationship with Ray, like regular dating, exclusive, committed, then it's cheating unless he knows she's in love with someone else, and even if he does, it's doomed. This isn't a society of arranged marriages where you can live a pleasant life with a man you don't love but can be content with. Libraries of books are written about those tragedies, from Wuthering Heights to Anna Karenina, where one of the couple is in love with someone else. How can she be happy, really happy, when she's settling for the one she can get rather than the one she wants? The timing of it is the only thing I don't have a problem with. It's like with Oliver and Sara, Felicity was upset at the idea that Oliver was going off to maybe get himself killed again and once again she couldn't do anything about it. Sex as a narcotic. The real problem I have with it is that just like with Sara and Oliver, something that should have been a ONS is now going to go into a relationship I hate the idea of. (The difference is that last season, there were other storylines in the show that I wanted to see, like O/D/F and Moira. This year there's nothing.) Marc Guggenheim can tease great Olicity scenes coming up all he wants, having seen the episodes when Oliver is dating Sara and Felicity hurt, I don't want to see Oliver and Felicity in a scene together again till Raylicity is over. and I absolutely don't want to see Oliver making hurt eyes when he sees Felicity with Ray. (The scenes with Diggle is Draw Back Your Bow still give me shudders.) The Adlerians call it "spitting in your soup" and MG's certainly spit in mine.