Midnight Cheese

No, since there's strong disagreement, 'we' did not see that, Aging Goth. Mileage varies in a huge way. Saying someone's fine, fione or phione does not mean lusting after someone. Different people have pointed out the actual sequence of events, where she flirted with Phaedra, with everyone around her, man/woman/piano keyboard. The implication in insisting that she lusted 'after' him, too, suggests actual pursuit, and we now have the alleged victim saying TWICE, to be aired on the show, that he is made of lies. (Just like his marriage. Just like his wife.) I wasn't aware that the others 'witnessed' the non-existant 'Monica Lewinsky' text and all of the other made-up evidence of her pursuit that APOLLO HIMSELF has now admitted, twice, was a lie. From Wimmin Winning, upthread: This. This is what disgusts me about this story. There is a deeply sexist strain to what happened with this particular bunch of bullshit on the last ATL season. A metric ton of projection going on with Kenya -- deliberately stoked by Phaedra. I wonder if she's done her recon with the woman now serving time for Apollo's latest set of crimes? What relationship is likely to exist between a man and a woman who refers to herself as his 'right-hand bitch'?

I thought Shannon was really likeable this episode; the worst thing for me was giving Sophie a big bag of supplements. Oh, Shannon. But like someone upthread, I think she was trying not to cry at the airport and that's why she was subdued with David and Shannon. For what it's worth, it ain't inconsistent to say she'd not been apart from her 12 year old and to have just returned from a weekend, probably 3 days, with just David in Mexico. I also see something warm and real between Shannon and David, and the Michigan comment was something ridiculous and stupid but nothing more, and not particularly telling, I don't think. Mileage varies. Heather is a goddamned fake. Word up that she is hardly erudite or refined, so she can shut it with her Whoville shocked eyes about anal and everything else. The least sexy sex I can imagine would be that between Tamra/Eddie, Heather/Terry and Vicki/Brooks. It's hard for a man to be as vile as gunt-having Brooks but damn if Terry and Eddie don't match him gross for gross. Heather never references anything cultural, political, or broader than shopping, kids and stupid fucking gossip, and she's obviously a snippy, controlling, incredibly tense, manipulative (deliberately interpreting some things like Vicki's summary of what Shannon said literally instead of figuratvely, despite having years of evidence that that's a dumb thing to do) and brittle person. She's a lot of things. But particularly elevated, interesting and smart aren't among those things. She's just another consumerist famewhore with a fucking attitude problem. Not all that different from the the straw-haired, dead-eyed, fucked-face succubus building a career out of folding towels (poorly). That dinner with Shannon, Vicki, Whoville and the Succubus was cuntastic. Of course Tamra had that fakitty fake fake fake tone of voice towards Shannon. Of course Heather smirked about yelling after they settled things. (I missed how overtly gleeful Heather's facial expressions were last episode, when Shannon apologized for her outburst and left. Nasty bitch.) I don't think Lizzie's a fake. She was clueless about how fortunate and spoiled she was to have significant start-up cash from her dad, but it's completely obvious to me that she's not trying to present herself as the sole owner of the beach property, she doesn't seem to be living large, and she seems to have a good relationship with her husband, who seems attracted to and capable of valuing her for something other than how much he's attracted to her. In that respect, they are leagues beyond everyone else on that show. Add to that her direct confrontation of the Succubus and I may be falling in love.

As far as I'm concerned? Kenya NEVER lusted after Apollo, ever. Phaedra, not a total fool, knew that a story as nonsensical as '[a woman] pursued me with such passion that I had to switch hotel rooms,' was a poorly-constructed cover for some likely fucking that her thick-headed husband was sharing with someone not named 'Phaedra Parks.' Phaedra is a LIAR, and an arrogant fronter, and she deserves to be dragged from here to eternity for her sexist, retrograde, dishonest and pathetic behavior. Apollo is a liar but lo and behold, he at least had the decency to admit it. Phaedra just whipped other cast members like knuckle-dragger Porsha to do her dirty work. A more pathetic scenario is hard to find than a bunch of grasping, stupid women believing the word of someone with a very serious public record of dishonesty who told tales that made no sense. Apollo was believed not because he was Liar, Liar, Esq.'s huzzbinn, but because he is a man. Let's be honest here.

That's interesting, ryebread - I think the distinction is that we don't know whether Aviva has legitimate mental health issues or is merely a greedy, self-centered, pathetically manipulative gross asshole. I'm not saying you wrote this at all, but it seems incredibly unrealistic to think Carole would've responded to the probably spurious ghostwriter accusations with, 'Well, Aviva has never processed her PTSD and integrated herself into truly independent adult life, so it's natural on some level that she wants to take me down because I simply had a conversation about finding *her* a ghost writer.' It just seems like such a stretch to me. In my own life when I've had the unfortunate and rare encounter with a woman has been grossly competitve with me I have never reacted like, 'Well, I guess she has a very tough time with herself and her own self-esteem.' Instead, I'm thinking, 'Fuck you, you sad-sack ho. I'm going to enjoy describing your antics, attempting to diagnose you with zero psychology degrees, and tearing up everything else about your messy ass to the people that love me.' And then I won't deal with her at all unless absolutely required.

I felt uncomfortable watching Aviva, though I laughed a little like LuAnn. I know Carole loathes her but I still feel she nailed it with simply saying, 'She's pathetic.' It's mean. But it's true. It's not clear to me whether Aviva has serious mental health problems, or just a wretched, entitled personality based on the demonstrably false idea that she's the smartest in this group. Sonja's party. Sonja's meandering speech during that clustermess of a party, where she read from notes and yet went on and on (who is she, Hugo Chavez?) Sonja's putting her full weight on her 'sprained ankle' in knee-high, high-heeled boots after scooting her ass down stairs (dirty banister in view). Sonja's bullshit about Harry, including 'feew sowwy fah Sownya' lies and bullshit about Harry and LuAnn screwing. Sonja wearing her most distinguished Fuck Me and Bail Me Out heels to her 'date' with Harry a short time after her 'sprain.' Is she crazy, though? No. Just...pathetic. Flove this: +1. Roll my healthy leg on a pillow, indentured servant! Not you, Pickles, you're for folding my threadbare and busted St-Tropez thongs! Now let LuAnn into my crumbling, pee-stained mansion. Take my dog! Throw it in the closet with Marley! Light Millou's Remembrance Candle! Tell Puff Daddy he can't have the yacht, okay? Get Ramona's copy of the Social Register so I can find a nonagenarian with only 1 functional heart valve, and schedule my laser lipo with Dr. Sharon Giese so that I can run into him and kickstart our surprise first date! ^^ It's all plausible. I'm not really into gold and animal prints but I kind of sort of loved Carole's apartment changes. A lot!

If you don't, Bosawks, you're not a friend....Sonja needs that kind of info so that she can stalk your ex and present like a baboon in heat within 24 hours of any break-up. It's how rich people act, you know? Word up to Grneyedldy - Sonja's ex has tried to scrub the internet of pictures of them together, especially that of the little girl. I have zero, absolutely zero doubt, that Sonja's daughter is off-limits because her ex has prevented that. I have zero doubt that but for his intervention, Sonja would do whatever possible to make her daughter her 'storyline.' I think the gruesome 'blonde' threesome above have issues, but I personally will mock lustily as long as I can type! I think for each, their primary issue is being narcissistic unkind ca-hunts who are completely used to getting what they want when they say boo, not some kind of organic processing disorder, struggle with depression or another serious mental illness. Sonja, who I find loathsome, is unbelievably disingenuous, and has presented 'no settlement,' 'sued for no reason, deals fall apart all the time,' 'LuAnn owed me the breakup news first/she's just a social acquaintance/she's a man, and I'm a delicate heiress-type!' -- that shit is concerted. It's a campaign. Aviva's creation of 'Bookgate' was a campaign. She slyly brought in tidbits over time - 'Bill Whitworth,' 'my publisher passed,' 'Reid witnessed my getting this information.' A campaign. Ramona deciding to drag out the non-story with the former Miss USA, the entire pattern of behavior even just driving up to the Berkshires (home values, 'the Berkshires are...for people who can't afford the Hamptons!') -- not isolated blurting out, reaction shot type moments. Just a vile woman being vile, again and again -- and escalating. So for me at least, I know I'm not mocking them for things out of their control. Not at all.

Yes, I agree. For me, Shannon's emotions are leading her to either exaggerate a bit, but she is not making stuff up wholesale -- and Heather is. The manner in which Heather portrayed what Vicki said was, I believe, a complete lie. I'm sure Heather will eventually blog and lead in with some crap about how her super-busy-super-mom-and-actress schedule prevented her from touching on what happened blah blah blah, but I am amused that she's clearly at a loss about how to make herself look good after this bunch of mess. Really hard to seem compassionate when next week she's widening her eyes with 'Should we call an ambulance? Is she having a psychotic break?' See, Heather's blown a plastic surgeon (amazed his dick didn't freeze and snap off) so by osmosis she also has the training to make legitimate psychiatric diagnoses on camera, nothing shady about that! None of that is to say that Shannon doesn't have serious issues, and wouldn't, maybe, be a much happier woman with more structure in her life, like a job or a serious volunteer schedule, and therapy with someone not named Dr. Moon. But I think Heather is just such a shit. She takes these venial things (Alexis and the Nordstrom bullshit, the Beadors being late to her ridiculous groundbreaking party) and makes them into mortal sins and gathers her team to help her hammer at particular victims. Bitch is a bitch, and worthy of Tamra's 'friendship.' What a nightmare.

I think Heather's truest 'tell' was when Shannon excused herself to the restroom when the arguing was getting heated. Heather immediately snapped, 'Oh, is that what *I* should have done?' to again bitch about being a victim (...of Tamra's lies) at Shannon's Christmas party. Shannon had just finished apologizing - for the third time, on camera! - for that. Tamra's divide-and-conquer moves of pulling people out to Lizzie's balcony is some of the rudest shit ever at one of these consarned dinner parties. I'm not sure she'll be her comeuppance but, hey, her business is failing, her marriage is a farce, and her face is collapsing inward and she's desperately unhappy about being a grandparent so life is still good! About Tamra's reaction to the blessed event: I remember the 'Nugget' freakout too, and I remember on TWoP people posted about excellent mommy Tamra fighting with her daughter on Facebook. Tamra doesn't give a shit about her kids, she's a sociopath. What triggers her is having concrete evidence of her terrible parenting. That's when she gets upset. She never had a non-pole job, nor a career. She was a stripper, married 'mom,' who never sold a damned thing as a real-la-tor. So...you know. Wah! The idea of Vicki and Brooks coupling is disgusting. Neither of them got an alibi.

Tamra is looking like a bleached, 'toxed and dazed Thai ladyboy on Watch What Happens Live tonight. Maybe I've misjudged her and she's less of a xenophobic idiot than I assumed? Fuck, she is a mess.

I almost forgot that Vicki is better, sexier and has a better 'physical attribute' other than her...brain (uh-huh! She is so smart! That's why she's with an erudite man like Crooks!!!) when compared to the billions of women who have had vaginal births. That's just how Truffle Hunter rolls.

Why did no one push Tamra off of the balcony? (And then douse her in tequila and have one of the fire dancers get a little closer...) Shannon's really letting things get to her, but Tamra is horrendous, and so is Heather. It's not cute. It's not okay even on one of these bullshit programs for Tamra to keep on keeping on with the spreading of rumors about Shannon's marriage (it goes on again next week, with the 'they don't share a bed! They haven't for years!' comments, on camera, to Danielle and Heather about the Beadors. ENOUGH). Shannon seems too delicate, but Heather is pushing, hard, because of her own inadequacies and arrogance. The worst thing to me was how physically intrusive and almost abusive Tamra was in crawling all over Shannon, again, pushing her as hard as possible to snap, screaming 'STOP IT!!!' in that truly unhinged tone of voice...after accusing Shannon of being drunk when literally everyone present was having cocktails, champagne, wine and shots. Tamra was less in control than Shannon because of her desperation to not be called out as the deceitful shit she is. I feel the c-word (which I'm a real fan of in some necessary circumstances) was invented for Tamra back when she was forged in the depths of hell from a pile of filled and torn condoms and her mommy's tears. So I'll stop my classy self right there.

I felt overall awful watching the show, like I shouldn't see people and kids in such a profoundly miserable situation - I'm not sure if I will watch. I stopped watching Jersey around a season ago because it felt too heavy, but watched the whole thing yesterday. There's no way to ignore the big issues with the Giudices, but part of me wishes I could because I would love to see: - Amber "I went to Columbia!" inventing words beyond "etiquecy." - Exactly how crazy Amber's husband is, especially if he's on-camera bragging about working with the DA prosecuting the Giudice's. - The bald bastard, evil eyebrows-having restaurateur married to the one dopey twin get drop-kicked in the crotch several times. - The other dopey twin (I think? Who TF knows?) expanding upon her list of 'women's needs.' Yes, oral sex, coffee and donuts are great, but I'm sure she can add to that. - Some birth certificates or other documentation on how old NicoleTeresa are. They look really rough. - Milania sent home from school somewhat chastened for shrieking 'butthole' at other kids or, as likely, her teacher. - Kathy 'Gonzo' Wakile bitching about Teresa entering the dessert business, and being told by someone (not likely Teresa) that in every single circumstance, Teresa moves products, and Kathy doesn't, so she should deal with that reality and dry her eyes on Richie's popped collar. - A shopping excursion to Whores "R" Us or whereverthefuck all of the implant-flashing gowns and platform, sparkly pole-dancing hooves come from - unless it's Posche, because no thanks. Amber mentioned her cancer to try and make Melissa look bad. Amber, Melissa doesn't need your help. Please don't use having survived breast cancer in a scumbag way, okay? I missed Caroline, Jacqueline and Kathy not at all. I do wish and hope that Kathy is embarrassed in the upcoming scene by having Teresa outsell her in the desserts business. I also hope that Caroline is too busy nursing her sons and Jacqueline's head is too big and heavy to permit either to darken a Housewives scene. It's not that I think the new cast members are 'better,' but watching Jacqueline undermine her eldest and sob tears that were 99% Baileys, Caroline be a do-nothing grouchy idiot and Kathy act pathetic and put-upon, particularly in the face of her husband's gross sexism, gave me no misty, water-colored memories of those three. ETA: Duke2801, 44!!! Seriously? (And thank you!)

Well, we're clocking the breasts at under 10 years, right? So, the other two...

How old are those twins?

Bethenny is such an asshole. Anyone who ever doubted that she would compete with her daughter can see it's already started. With her 4-year old.

Oh, I think 'stripper' wasn't whispered, I think 'hooker hooker hooker' was shouted whenever Chris Laurita was out of earshot.

I watched a little of whatever season is leading to tonight's premiere (season 4? Trip to Arizona where everyone has to harass a poor horse and scrape dung out of his hoof?). The Giudices are awful, the Manzos are worthless, Jacqueline Laurita is an affront to all parents, but....the Wakile family shkeevs me so much. I can't even watch or hear Richie, Rosie seems to have delays or serious emotional issues or both, and Kathy is so desperado panting thirsty for attention. I can't stand them!

Then why on Earth is LuAnn in the wrong for not wanting to talk about her relationship particulars? She is smart. She invented that game. She doesn't owe it to us to get into whether her relationship was open and when it ended. LuAnn is actually usually relatively discreet and subtle. On the other hand there is Ramona, who absolutely has made her marriage an issue: bragging about it, bragging about not marrying an 'older' man, renewing her vows at 17 years. Critiquing Silex and LuAnn. Using her 'empowerment' line of argument to slam other women. She's a scumbag or 'vicious little cow' (TM jinjer, love that.) She also has brought up way, WAY off-camera stuff for years (Jill and alleged abuse of Saks return policies; the unforgiveable, deliberate retweeting of a video of LuAnn's daughter). Karma is taking care of Ramona, though. Mario's relatively young enough that if she holds on, she will have to know that he will NEVER stop until he's physically incapacitated with his Kaseys and I'm sure his Kourtneys and his other kapital-K krazy other women. If it bothered Ramona enough to file, it's obviously a problem, and not a situation of an open marriage. No one deserves to be cheated on, but not everyone warrants universal sympathy because she's in a bad circumstance.

LuAnn is perpetuating a relationship fraud...but Sonja isn't? ("I broke up with Brian (....3-4 years ago)," "My situation with Harry is getting serious (....but don't ask him about it, okay? I need someone with access to family money!)" Ramona isn't (reportedly won't even address having filed for divorce during the reunion)? Nah, mah friends. LuAnn hosted Saratoga and a dinner, and has been light and amusing IMO during much of the season. The 'no storyline' thing always puzzles me - it was used a lot to critique Kenya of RHOATL, and I don't get it in either instance. The only time I see that as a problem is when it gets to the 'robot baby' place of Tamra/Eddie on RHOOC and their hellish predecessors, Gretchen and Slade, who fronted about starting a family though he had a vasectomy and she looks entirely composed of plastics. ^^ Good god, I watch way too much of this shit.

I knew I shouldn't have watched the wedding. Kandi isn't capable of being a generous, self-confident adult in a true relationship and is amazingly selfish. But I truly can't handle Joyce and how she was with Kaela. It is the worst thing I've ever seen, ever, on a Housewives show. Joyce knew when she was speaking that Kaela, a shy, sweet and sensitive-seeming girl, could hear her. Joyce then went for broke on Kaela during her last attempt to shame and manipulate Kandi, when Riley finally had to intervene. Joyce really deserved to have her Ziggy wig torn off and repeated punches to the face. She really deserves a daily, serious, call an ambulance-level ass-kicking. She is worthless. I hope Riley pulls away from her completely as she gets a little older.

Ramona had an eye job. Bitch lies about surgery because bitch is a liar, an enormous liar, and oh yeah! A trashbag liar. The rude cow has crows' feet that slant up...thank you Dr. Sharon Giese! http://jezebel.com/5482795/real-housewives-ramona-explains-her-eyes-to-wendy-williams ^^ No condition other than 'an issue with her contacts,' straight from the ho's mouth, to Wendy Williams. But she'd never, ever do something surgically invasive - just ultrasound fat-melting, and Botox, and whatever else she lies about to herself and others.

I don't think Ramona is a sexual person; she is very vulnerable to flattery (hi Aviva!) but I think things stop right there. She's always come across as a stupid snotty prig. She just chooses to have zero self-control, and thus runs roughshod over the needs and feelings of even those she purports to love. She is not over him. She is desperate to keep her farce of a marriage AND her farce of her self-defined "strong woman" identity, where she's truly independent. She is not. She's attached herself like a tick to both Mario and Avery, which is completely unhealthy both for marriage and for being a fair parent who doesn't attempt to manipulate her child through drama. Re Sonja and her 'breakup' (...were they really dating? Ask him, not her) with Brian: she references it in her most current Bravo blog with "I've broken up with my boyfriend of three years, Brian." Again: a liar through and through. She does everything possible to dissemble and give exactly the wrong impression of things.

Ramona is a pile of dog shit obscured by a tall grass in a park. Utterly worthless as a friend - no, as a person. She should be physically ejected when she starts creating a scene, because she does not bother to stop, ever. I hope her wonderful husband gave her several intractable STDs since we know he likes to cheat condomless. But the song, so romantic! True love can overcome! Aww! So: Mario hates her. He loves not dividing the money, but he has contempt for her even beyond getting his mistress pregnant. Aviva is an idiot. Munchausen's is not obscure. She keeps returning to the well and writing in her blogs that her castmates want her to die. I mean, I'm sure she provokes that response in lots of people - but no one has wished death on her! Good grief. Well, it seems if the show gets another season, she won't. Sonja's intern situation, calling Naomi 'Pickles,' and blogging about how important high GPAs and charity work are in these 19-23 year olds is contemptible behavior, not 'zany' or 'cute.' She is a total liar about every single thing in her life. The "boyfriend Brian" in her blog must be the painter she dated, who painted her portrait as if she was a grey corpse. He wasn't on last season at all, so they probably broke up between 3 and 4 years ago. She's so desperate to give off bona fides like she's stable enough for a real long-term relationship, because that, and not working, running a business or selling houses her ex-husband bought outright and gave her outright in their divorce, is the only way she can reach the lifestyle she pissed away. Noting that she heard Mario singing in the shower is par for the course: no decency, no loyalty, just disingenuous cuntitude. It is very, very important - it is the only important thing in her life, much more important to her than her daughter and yes, I'm fine writing that - to demonstrate at every single moment that SHE is number-one penis-receptacle in any scenario. Post July 4th last summer, Sonja 100% KNEW that it was VERY likely that Mario was having a fuckathon with Crazy #2 in the Hamptons, so she knew Ramona was very likely being cheated on, so why not insinuate something all winky-pantyless, as is her custom? I love that smug and cruel Ramona's marriage is a humiliating sham for her -- but I'm not her friend! Again, this hooker is not merely delusional. She's a horrible, horrible woman. Josh and Kristen depress me. I don't care about her whining, quite frankly (TM almost-lawyer and scholar Aviva Drescher). He treats her with absolutely no respect, and nobody deserves that for the minor crime of being whiny after trying to do stuff like cook for the first time, and getting work (the fitness video shoot that Josh undermined, the Yummie Tummie modeling and the RHONY gig are all work, and are 3x the number of jobs Sonja holds). It's a ridiculous situation and Josh's inability to be civil and constant denigration of the person he chose as a life partner are disgusting. I thought LuAnn and Jacques seemed like a good fit. LuAnn seems to know how to level-set for herself and move on after difficulty. I could learn that from LuAnn, along with a better fitness routine, how to pick out the best casual clothes, etc. Jonathan of Heather and Jonathan is totally awesome.

I believe you, Copacabana. It's repulsive but I have no doubt about how insular that crowd is. Do you think if Jill weren't in retail, and instead was in prestige banking or law, or in the fine arts (Met Museum, throwing $$$ at the Met Opera or NY Philharmonic) that would be different? I read about Mercedes Bass's divorce and how revolting the Nan Kempner types were about her, in part because she was married and lured a richer, also married man from his society queen wife and took her place, but in part because of her Iranian heritage. I think you are amazingly dead-bang-on about Sonja - both you and Persnickety1 - about how this seething resentment towards LuAnn is coming from the pit-in-her-stomach knowledge that she was in, and now is completely and permanently out from even the perimeters of NYC's moneyed elite with some claim of pedigree, however absurd that whole concept is in a city most recently shaped by Bloomberg's policies -- where money and money alone matters. Your background and point that LuAnn could reset her desires, and find happiness without being a Count's wife and show the kind of stability valued by men in that circle who are open to long-term relationships and even marriage sounds so right to me. Sonja will NEVER find that again. I would only object to any idea that Sonja was spat out in some unfair way - my understanding (and curse me for not being able to find the writeups of the rumors) is that Sonja was playing around semi-openly, did not come home when her ex had a cancer scare, and that did it. That coupled with her messing with his $$$ and lying and ultimately committing fraud by claiming that Morgan-level financing was hers to offer to movie producers are acts of intent, or as ScoobieDoobs has written, are the acts of a conwoman. I think Persnickety1 is also totally right about the pirate, and I'll be on the crazy train too, because I can easily imagine Sonja wanting props during or just after the act that she's the better lay and more desirable and on and on. Sonja acts like she lives on Neptune, but she knows all about the concept of sloppy seconds; she's very sexually competitive and attention-starved, so being #2 to the pirate, and I guess to Harry, has to kill her. It's all LuAnn's fault though. LuAnn, LuAnn, LuAnn!

Icki was wearing a strapless, Ed Hardy (!!!!) tube dress when she was first shown in Puerto Vallarta with Crooks. And then there was the strapless dress at that doomed dinner. Neither fit her and yes, both dresses would optimally be on a different, probably thinner and more toned, body. (I don't wear bikinis because I'm not about wearing things that I don't think work with what I've got.) Vicki consistently looks like an unhot, hot mess, and I think the same about her 'business woman' wear - everything is always 1 if not 2 sizes too small, with some blouses having cutouts over her heavy, fake cleavage. It's 'business woman' as seen in a porn. All of this is accentuated by racconish eyeliner, the awful Lisa Vanderpump-style fake eyelashes, the leathery skin and bleached-out hair. Dreadful. I don't think it's kosher to post anything suggestive about how a poster looks or doesn't, weight-wise or otherwie. I don't think it's out of bounds, personally, to comment on any element of Vicki's appearance: her surgery was a plot line for a couple of seasons, she's proud of her fake rack and has bragged about it, she's talked about having lipo, she has an occasional bra allergy but much love of having her tits out in filmy halter tops, and she and evil Tamra called Jeana fat on camera (at the races where they tried to ice out Gretchen) which is pretty fucking rich when she was talked often about wanting to lose weight, get in shape, whatever. For all of the money spent, I think she could look a lot better. If only she'd invested in a darker blonde, makeup lessons, a personal trainer and a shrink. But I'm not concern trolling her, and every scene in which she looks a mess (which is every scene she's in to me) is like Christmas in July.