Wayward Son

Under normal circumstances perhaps not, but Season 5 presented Dean as spiraling into depression. It began as early as the end of Abandon All Hope when we saw the utter look of devastation on his face after the death's of Jo and Ellen, it was explicitly referenced by Famine in My Bloody Valentine when he refers to Dean as dead inside, and it continued in Dark Side of the Moon when the divergences in their heavenly memories caused him to lose faith in the bond he shared with Sam. The Dean of these episodes was portrayed as a suffer of depression who had become completely consumed by that nihilistic viewpoint. As for your second point, I'm really not trying to be rude, but it doesn't matter what you (or I for that matter) believe. Team Free Will (Sam, Dean, Bobby and Castiel) believed they had the power to destroy half the world and acted as a result of that belief. IMO to say that they were wrong completely undermines what they went through in season 5 and devalues the sacrifice of Jo and Ellen. If they hadn't the power to cause destruction and change on a long scale then Sam and Dean may as well have said yes during Sympathy for the Devil and got it over and done with rather than indulging in needless refusals to say no until they had a better plan. Oh yes it could have been a part of some larger plan, but Dean himself never gave any indication of such. Personally, I don't believe the show ever gave the slightest hint such a plan exists, and since it seems to be only Dean centric fans who believe in one; it comes across as a desperate denial he may have felt overwhelmed by events and temporarily gave up. However, putting my personal doubts aside, let us assume you're right and such a plan existed then the onus lay with Dean to reveal such a plan existed and not Sam, Castiel or Bobby. However, Dean does nothing of the sort. Instead when he is first confronted by Sam it went as follows. BiB 1: If Dean had a master plan then was the time to contradict Sam's assumption and explain. Something along the lines of "No, of course not, (insert some information about the plan here)". Agreeing with Sam's (supposedly wrong) assumption isn't a good way of getting the others to understand the wisdom behind his actions. Bib 2: When he tells Sam he has nothing why didn't he explain he had something? Something along the lines of "You got nothing and you know it... Me allowing Michael to possess me and work on changing his mind is the best shot we've got". Then there is the confrontation at Bobby's place in the next scene. BIB 1: Why exactly should Sam and Bobby be expected to behave all "Go Dean go" when he feels making mocking jabs is the best way to go about things? I certainly wouldn't be inclined to listen to someone who was behaving like that. And if we are talking about why the others were more agreeable to Sam's plan can you give me a similar instance of Sam mocking the others concerns? BIB 2: Dean's on screen, textual, reference to his plan was essentially following the plan outlined by Zachariah at the beginning of the season, a plan Team Free Will had just spent the last year fighting their hardest against, Dean would say yes to Michael, Michael would kill (or in Dean's words ice) Lucifer and save some of humanity from the destruction caused by the battle. There is absolutely no reference to some other plan such as persuading Michael not to go through with the apocalypse and use his powers in a different way. So if Dean had such a plan that might have been a good time to say so. BiB 1: Again, Dean's wording very much supports the assumption he has given up. He is motivated by tiredness of who he is supposed to be. BiB 2: He explicitly states he is doing this because he doesn't believe in Sam's ability to say no not because there was a greater purpose to his actions. Personally, I find it unfair for any fan to expect Sam to meekly answer with "Yeah, Dean your right! I'm weak and I'm totally going to say yes to Lucifer. So let's just go and say our yeses now and get this over and done with". So I'm sorry, but if Dean had some bigger plan and hadn't simply decided saving half a planet was better than no planet in contrast to the others desire to save everyone then Dean sure as hell went completely wrong about revealing his plan and getting the others on side. Let's contrast Dean's attitude here with Sam's when he makes the decision to say yes to Lucifer. Sam's attitude here is completely different to Dean's. Firstly, he immediately identifies his reasoning for wanting to jump into the cage. Unlike Dean he makes it clear this is about saving far more people than following the Angel's plans would have. Secondly, unlike Dean with his wise ass remarks such as "tonight's the night the magic happens" Sam actually respects Bobby's obvious initial rejection of the plan and promises this is only something he will do if he has the agreement of the group. From Bobby's perspective Sam is behaving in a far calmer and respectful manner than Dean. It should be noted that even with these differences there is a lot of initial rejection to Sam's initial plan. They didn't all immediately jump to agree, but ultimately figured it was their best bet. Honestly, you make it sound as though everyone rejected Dean and immediately jumped to agree with Sam, but they didn't. There was a lot of doubt and discussion before they came to the conclusion it was the best plan they had. IMO if Sam had taken a similar approach to Dean and announced "Guys, I'm saying yes to Lucifer. We can't beat him and I'm tired of fighting against my purpose. You can't change my mind" the others would have been just as unreceptive to the plan as they were to Dean's. That to me is the essential difference. As I outlined above in my response to @ILoveReading when Dean wanted to say yes it was in order to follow the plan of the angels and his viewpoint was largely influenced by his belief that Sam was going to succumb to Lucifer. Since the others didn't see Sam's yes as inevitable as Dean did they opposed the plan. On the other hand, by the time Sam had begun to consider saying yes their circumstances had changed. Sam was now in the position to come up with a game plan that would ultimately thwart not only Lucifer, but also the angels plans for humanity namely taking momentary control and jumping into the cage. I will concede that it was plot convenience that Dean never suggested saying yes to Michael in addition to Sam saying yes, but I see it as in character for the others to not suggest it. IMO it is one thing for a member of team free will to willingly offer to make the sacrifice (as Sam did here) or agree to the suggestion made by a third party (such as Rowena suggesting Dean would sacrifice himself and be the bomb used to destroy Amara) and the others to accept it, and quite another for another member of team free will to suggest someone else sacrifice himself. I'm sorry but I really couldn't see any of Sam, Bobby or Castiel comment along the lines of "Sorry, but I/Sam isn't strong enough for this! Dean, you should be the one to jump into the cage instead". I'm sorry but I just can't see any of them (including Dean if positions were reversed) behaving like that. I can see them accepting the sacrifice of another, but being the one to suggest they sacrifice themselves? Nope.

I just came across this on tumblr! I’m not a big fan of the “its time to return the favour” tag line! I assume it’s referring to Donna helping to save the brothers in 13x10 and if anything that was Donna and Co “returning the favour”. Plus they’re meant to be friends not playing some stupid point scoring game. Although I blame the CW pr time (I’m fairly certain one of them writes these summaries?) rather than those involved with the show itself. On a a brighter note, aside from that opening tag line, the summary made the episode sound interesting and I am looking forward to meeting Wendy and hopefully other members of Donna’s family :)

Replied in Bitch vs Jerk

Technically, Sam did see allowing Lucifer to possess him as killing himself. They didn’t forsee Cas resurrecting his body or Death later retrieving his soul hence the speech to Dean about finding a good life with Lisa and Ben. Sam saw his actions as a sacrifice, but for a worthy cause. The difference in Sam’s mind IMO was that his consent was a part of a much larger game plan to save as many life’s as possible. He would say yes, mind wrestle with Lucifer, and then jump into the cage when the time came. Of course one could argue it was hubris on Sam’s part to assume he would win such a match, but that was his plan. On the other hand, Dean’s plan of action was essentially “Sam’s going to say yes so I might as well say yes too and take part in this epic battle which will destroy the life of billions. Better a handful of survivors than none”. Sam on the other hand, at this point, had no intention of saying yes to Lucifer so he saw Dean’s plan as dooming them all with no good reason for doing so.

I love Castiel and I’m sure you know by now that I can get pretty sensitive when I feel they’re slighting the character, but I have no issues here. As @gonzosgirrl said no one is actually aware of Castiel being missing at the moment. Asmodeus has been using his voice shifting abilities to pose as Castiel when needed. So since Claire is only aware of the danger to Sam and Dean it makes sense for her to refer only to them :)

My head canon / understanding is as follows: A nephilim possess two things a) a grace level equivalent to the angel that created it and b) a human soul. So the reason Jack is so powerful is that he not only has the grace of an archangel inherited from his fathers heritage, but a human soul from his mothers heritage. We also know that an angel possesses the power to channel the human soul as a power source e.g. Castiel tapped into Bobby’s soul to bring Sam and Dean back from the past during Frontier Land. So IMO this means not only does Jack have Lucifer leave grace, but he also can use his soul as a further energy source which boosts him up to god like powers such as opening up rifts, awakening Cas in the empty etc. The fact they inherit the same grace level as their angel parent and have access to a human soul would also explain why a nephilim is always more powerful than the angel who brought it into being i.e. they have a power source (the soul) their angelic parent lacked. If I’m right then it makes sense the angels won’t notice the emergence of a new being with the same celestial ability as hundreds of angels, but they will instantly notice a new being possessing archangel power. A Power level which exists in two other beings only one of whom is currently on earth.

I think that is what they have strongly implied in season 13 so far. There was an episode, I’m leaning towards War of the Worlds, where several characters commented on the fact no one could sense Jack and he must be protected by powerful magic. Personally, I took that to mean Jack was warding himself from protection. However, I think it is fair to guess that even if Jack possessed unusual sentience in the womb even he may not have had enough awareness at the very moment of conception to ward himself so the angels didn’t notice the wave of celestial energy suddenly created. Sobasically what I’m saying is I can see Jack being able to ward himself now and possibly during the later stages of Kelly’s pregnancy, but I don’t think he was capable / aware enough to do so during his conception itself.

Going to reply in the all episodes thread :)

As @Katy M said the angel killed outside of the house (Akobel) was believed to be the father of Lily Sunder’s daughter. Akobel was described as a “seraphim of the sixth choir” by Castiel as he declared his “crime” shortly before being killed by Mirabel. Had she been a legit nephilim I would imagine she would have been quite powerful as seraphims are meant to be high in the angelic hierarchy, but still far from the power Jack possesses.

My understanding / fankwank of the nephilim situation is as follows. Since I can’t recall them being an issue prior to s8 so most of my thoughts are based on that season and season 12. Nephilims as a whole are despised by the angelic race. This was established by Castiel and Metatron in season 8. However, the angels aren’t able to sense the birth of an ordinary Nephilim. I am basing this on a) the nephilim from season 8 existed without anyone noticing b) the angels believed Ishim’s lie rather than holding the knowledge no nephilim existed on earth at that time. So heavens general policy is anti-nephilim and if they learn of one they’ll take them out, but if a nephilim is smart and keeps their head down they can get by undetected. The difference with Jack, as Catrox commented in the post above, is that his conception created a “massive surge of celestial energy” that instantly made heaven aware of his existence. I think it’s fair to believe this isnt the case with a normal nephilim as Castiel also states the power needed to create this surge was “much, much greater than a normal angel”. This meant unlike a normal nephilim heaven was instantly aware of his existence and due to his immense power hunting him became a priority. I am aware that this is head canon / filling in the gaps on my part so I’m not expecting everyone to agree. Just sharing my thoughts on the issue :)

I believe they do! During Lily Sunders has Some Regrets Isham states the following when telling the other angels of their "mission" to kill Lily Sunder's daughter. While we know that Ishim was lying about the fact that the girl was a nephilim I see no reason to believe the Angels would be ignorant enough about their general nature I.e stating nephilim have both a soul and grace that Ishim could get away with such a lie.

Agreed on those! That’s honestly why I said the trio of Family, Baby and Hunting would be best! The word family emphasises what is important to Dean without trying to list every individual he has come to care for throughout the shows history :)

And Mary! Again, even if a viewer doesn’t like her Dean does love his mother. Dean’s great loves would be best described as Family (blood or otherwise), Baby and hunting with Sam slightly above everything else IMO.

This bothered me the first time around, but it actually works for me this time around. The episode actually addresses calling them when Dean tells Sam to not involve “mom or Cas”. So I’m going to take Sam’s actions as a slightly snarky “OK ill respect your wishes and not call them, but you ARE getting the help you’ll need so I’ll call Rowena. You didnt mention her!” Plus tbh this was the type of witchy problem she seemed more suited to than Cas :)

I just wanted to confirm that requesting membership does not cost anything. I signed up last year via that method (to finish a fic which for some reason had its final part - and final part only- members only. It’s just as they you request an invite and get assigned a place in the queue. I think i was person 12,000 and had to wait 3 days before mine arrived.

So I just rewatched L.O.T.U.S and had a misunderstanding cleared up! I was under the impression that the relationship between Kelly and Jeff was an affair due to Jeff getting married! I could have sworn I had read posts on here along the lines of "I wish the show would stop trying to saintify Kelly when she's the woman happy to sleep with a married man". But in fact Jeff wife had died and he was a widower meaning neither of them had actually done anything wrong. I actually now have no problem with Kelly being referred to as a good person.

In Heaven and Hell Anna mentions tha her mother Amy could not get pregnant and had always referred to her as "her little miracle". I took that to mean Anna was not possessing a vessel, but that body had been hers from the moment of conception. So there would have been no consent issues to worry about with regards to Dean and Anna having sex.

This was my take on Lucifer healing Vince's sister also. It is a part of his egotistical desire to have his vessel like him and want to remain possessed by him.

I rewatched Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox earlier this evening and my annoyance at what they did to the twins in Twigs, Twines and Tasha Banes has been renewed grrrr

It was established back in The Devil in the Details that the method used by Rowena only worked if Lucifer was not inhabiting a vessel so that was actually consistent for BuckLemming. I would also say that this is one instance where the audiences knowledge and the characters knowledge are two different things. While yes we know the horsemans rings are a thing Rowena doesn't necessarily as she didn't know the brothers back then. For all we know she might only know their method involves being possessed by Lucifer jumping into the cage. I can see why someone as selfish and self serving as Rowena would rather stick to her own method. Yes, I've always assumed that the Winchester duo represented the coming together of the Michael and Lucifer lines to produce the "as above shall be below" brothers prophesied. The Winchester lines is the Michael line hence John and Adam acting as acceptable substitutes while the Campbell line is the Lucifer line.

Just popping in to say that I am another male poster.

I actually think Dreamer may still be around even if Elena Satine is gone. While watching I thought the purple smoke escaping from her mouth was going to be an indication her essence/soul surprised and transferred to someone else. Im not a comic reader so perhaps the post death smoke held some signifiance related to the comics?

Am I right in thinking the actual heights are Misha/Cas: 6 foot 1, Jensen/Misha: 6 foot 2 and Jared/Sam: 6 foot 4?

The angels (with the exception of Lucifer) haven’t been able to teleport since Metatron’s spell made them all from heaven and clip their wings in the process. That’s why in recent seasons even Castiel has been seen driving his own car :) Welcome to the Supernatural section of Previously.tv by the way.

As far as I know Spoiler for later in s13