Wayward Son

Oh I get why you see the words that way and I agree they come across that way. However, it doesn’t make me sense to me. Let us assume Dabb and Co think Supernatural is problematic and “needs saving” from its male point of view. How does sending Jodi, Donna, Claire and Alex off to a seperate show help with that? Sjnce theyll he busy with a show of their own they’ll have even less viewpoint than before. Would it not make more sense to heighten their role on Supernatural? Allow them to “save” the show by making at least some of them co-leads and thus expanding the shows viewpoint. Sending the girls off to their own just doesn’t make strategic sense if ones goal is to “expand the shows viewpoint and save it”

I’m honestly glad we didn’t get some sort of shot showing Cas’ reaction to things. They’ve wasted enough of Cas’ precious few appearances as it is on one scene appearances.

My question is; how do the girls/spin off save the show from itself in the sense fans are taking it? If the spin off is created then that means Jodi, Donna etc will be off on their own show and will have little to no impact on the content of the mother show. If they were saying the main show needed saving due to poor content or whatever then wouldn’t it make more sense to make the mothership an ensemble and promote Jodi, Donna etc to co-leads? Then they’d be in the position of “saving” the show. However, a spin off IMO gives those characters even less influence over Supernatural as they’ll be off doing their own thing.

Yeah, I think this is what he meant too! But I don’t blame fans for being extremely annoyed by the remark. It was poorly worded and that’s pretty bad coming from someone who is supposed to write for a living.

It really is best to just rush through it as quick as you can! No point in prolonging the agony ;)

@RulerofallIsurvey I offer my deepest sympathies in regards to you finally reaching S8!

Aside from Guck, have we actually seen any character teleport another person with them? Eta: Never mind! I actually remember some instance myself now.

But that’s the difference between us. I don’t think they are heroes especially from s8 on. The show can call them heroes all they like and have people talk about how they “save the world”, but that doesn’t change the fact that 9/10 times they only save the world after being the ones to wreck it in the first place. The wreckage often a result of their reckless and ruthless behaviour and choice to damn the world to hell for the sake of the other. That’s not heroic that’s glorified mess cleaning up at best. Yeah, I imagine id find the flash a rather frustrating watch in that case :s

I actually don’t watch the flash. Although it’s one of those shows on my “I want to watch this at some point” list. Does The Flash acknowledge its leader less than stellar behaviour? Or does it try overly hard to sell him as a noble hero the way Supernatural does? I actually have no issue with shows where the lead isn’t a hero. I loved NBCs Hannibal for instance and Hannibal Lector was an out and out villain. However, while they added complexity to the character the show still acknowledged how dark he was. What I find really grating is the disparity between the shows tell “these guys are heroes! Even the God with a capital G of this verse says so” and the show where so many of their actions are anything but. It really would be all too easy to rewrite the narrative of this show and present Sam and / or Dean as the villain of the piece. The hero (insert random new character here) trying to save the world from the guy who has gone mad in his grief and threatened to endanger the whole world, let it all burn, in order to get their loved one back (Sam or Dean)

Going to reply in the Winchester smack down thread :)

Oh I agree with you that the show wants us to view them as flawed heroes. They've even had God himself tell us that they're heroes. However, for me it has been a simple case of tell vs show. They've been telling us the Winchester's are heroes. However, they've been showing them as anti-heroes to borderline villains. They've shown us ruthless men who are willing to put the lives of other people in danger, people who show little sympathy for a teenage boy at the end of his tether after they plucked him from his ordinary live and told him to get on with his job, they've shown us men willing to quite literally put the world in danger and sacrifice thousands of lifes in order to save one another. They've shown us men who hold little interest in the self-autonomy of others when it goes against their wishes, as highlighted by one of them shoving a gun in the face of a frightened teenager this week. IMO when I compare the Winchesters to legit fictional heroes they fall well short of that standard. At this point in the show the world would be a much happier and smoothly operating place if Sam, Dean and Castiel were shoved into a pocket dimension where they couldn't interact with anything else.

He does have Misha’s job? Well not Misha’s job but he’s a series regular like Misha already. I was more jokingly referring to the fact Jack has stated he sees Castiel as his father. It was a badly worded joke, sorry.

Oh I get that! I’m just joking about because I’ll probsbly always associate the phrase “The Man Who Would Be...” with Cas haha

The Boy Who Would Be King ... Someone wants to be Cas junior haha

This isn’t bitch vs jerk because it applies to both brothers. I’ve long rolled my eyes any time the show has tried to tell us Sam and Dean should be viewed as heroes. I haven’t viewed the Winchesters as remotely heroic for a very long time. I think I’ve got into debates with other users on here because I view them as anti-heroes at the very best of times and borderline villainous at the worst of times. They both can be extremely selfish, entitled, and utterly ruthless when they’re desperate and something is important to them. It doesn’t surprise me that the need to save Mary brought out that darker side of Dean just as Dean in peril brings out that side of Sam see Mystery Spot or late s10 - early season 11 for Sam examples. So could I see Dean shooting an innocent girl like Kaia? Nope - that would cross that border to outright villain. Could I see him making her think he would, to coerce her into doing what he wants? Definitely!

If it was just Gen I’d automatically assume she’s visiting Jared and leave it at that, but JDM doesn’t seem the type to just pop in for a random visit. Could we be getting returns of Ruby and John? Even if only for an episode via flashback?

And we adjusted up again! Yay. Poor Arrow though has maintained its (non holiday) season low of 0.4 :( . They really should not have moved it from Wednesdays at 8.

I honestly have never seen that argument re Sam and the Mark of Cain. I’m not arguing against it’s existence. I’ve just never seen it. Whereas I’ve seen the “Cas brought Sam back on soulless to cover his track” debate in multiple places such as here, Twitter and tumblr. I’ve seen that argument come from those which are neutral on Cas for the most part or even some who like him otherwise rather than just the haters. And that’s why I put it down to a failure on the shows part. Im curious where did you see people arguing Sam only wanted to take the mark for himself?

Dean being quick to declare someone family quickly isn’t exactly new anyway. He declared Charlie family after working on what 3 hunts together?

I wasn’t even talking about the refusal to seperate the brothers (although thats a different issue). I’m talking more about how they won’t allow other characters to appear in every episode of a season even when they should. I strongly believe that Castiel should have been in every episode of season six. His storyline that season was extremely important to the overall mythology and on a character level we needed to be able to see his mindset every step of the way. There shouldn’t be fans (and not just the ones who mindlessly hate him) who believe that Castiel brought back Sam soulless on purpose and there shouldn’t be debates on his motivations throughout season 6, as some believe it was a selfish power play. These questions are there because most of his story was told off screen and they gave us his perspective for a total of one episode. I’m not saying he has to be in every episode of every season, but definitely season 6. Likewise, IMO last year Mary Winchester underwent character assassination because of the two hander inflexibility. They needed a reason for her to not live in the bunker and reconnect with her sons so the made her unfeeling bitch for most of the season. She should have been allowed to star in all (or at least most) episodes last year and then this year she should have moved out and started living her own life. On to speculation time

Going to move to All Episodes thread

I understand this, but IMO the two hander hasn’t been working in the shows favour in years. It has only served to create uneven and convulted storytelling to support its continued existence and done both Sam and Dean and the characters involved an injustice. The secondary characters are being failed because the writers create the most stupid of reasons to get them off screen and Sam and Dean are being failed because they often look like heartless douchebags such as LARP and the Real Girl. At least the X Files had the sense to move on from this model when the time came. The people behind this show are too idiotic to do the same. So without that stupid rule to hold them back I hope the Wayward crew and any support characters the show introduces are more organic and allowed the room to develop as needed.

Unrounded ratings are out! Heres hoping we get another adjustment up! It’d be nice to make it thorough to mid season maintaining a 0.6-0.7 rating. Supernatural ............................. 0.540 ... (0.553 ... 0.526) Arrow ........................................ 0.439 ... (0.455 ... 0.422)

My greatest hope for WS is that the relationships on the show will be more organic and less convulted once they’re free of the stupid “no one but the two leads” can appear in every episode rule. Hopefully they’ll allow all characters main and minor to appear as much, or indeed little, as needed to match the plot / relationships.