DittyDotDot

My instinct says no, but nothing is really out of the range of possibilities on this show, is it?

Wasn't there a flashback where he stabbed Lucifer and Lucifer stabbed Cass? My theory is that they were both injured enough to crawl away to lick their wounds, but not enough to be deadly to either of them. I actually thought that when they were discussing the angel tablet. It was weird based on the information Cass gave Sam that he leapt to the conclusion that AU Micheal had an angel tablet. That felt totally out of the blue. But, the episode was over-packed--as is the Horrible Duo's want--so maybe they were over on time and had to do a bit of a hatchet job to some scenes? I have a hard time believing that Dabb didn't sign off on the final product and knew this happened though.

Actually, I can accept that Sam and Dean aren't on law enforcement's radar. It stretched incredulity some, but they are supposed to be dead and regular people tend to accept that more than miraculously being alive. Plus, Sam and Dean are supposed to be con men and that's what con men do, make you believe the unbelievable. The Sister Jo thing, though, I could accept if she had been being careful like moving around and not healing too many people at once. But, just the number of people we saw her heal on-screen seems hard to believe that she hadn't drawn some attention of some sort. Well, a little hyperbole on my part, but it seemed incredulous that she replenished her grace multiple times in the span of, what, two days while Lucifer's grace hasn't replenished at all in the months since some of it was taken from him. Right, like I said, they'd have to deal with Adam and the tricky angel vessel thing. That's why I don't believe we'll ever see our universe Micheal ever again. He'll always be the archangel who lost his mind and is useless to them. I just think it's easier for them to just ignore him than deal with the mess they wrote themselves into. But I like your idea that there was another unknown archangel out there and I like the name Pete! ;) Wasn't it the same backdrop the high school girls used for their play in Fan Fiction? I'm not sure why they used it for Sister Jo. She doesn't strike me as an "on the road" sort of character, but what do I know.

Silly, slithering S?

I've always said the show never seemed to learn their lesson of why Yellow Eyes was one of the scarier villains the show ever had. It's not because he was so powerful he was scary, but that we still, even to this day, know so little about him. And, almost everything we do know was learned after his death: his true name; his plans; what he actually was were all learned long after he died. Once the villains start monologuing and telling us their sad tale of woe over and over again they loose that scary factor and basically just become cartoons to a certain degree.

WOW, that was just plain bad, but oddly exceeded my expectations since I set them so very low for this one. First, the whole grace vampire thing makes no sense. Eventually, the grace is going to go bad and make Lucifer weak again. Seems like a really pointless thing to do. And, since grace is replenish-able and Lucifer was never on empty, then why isn't his replenishing, while the lacky angel's grace was replenishing in a matter of minutes? What a crock! Second, while I've always held out hope that Gabriel survived, but after the season of God and his angry sister it really doesn't make sense that Gabriel did survive. While I personally hold little interest in Michael, it would've made more sense to get Micheal out of the cage instead of this Gabriel mess. Although, then they would've had to deal with the issue of Adam and finding a suitable vessel for him, so... . Third, Sam and Dean, don't let the manipulative psychopath monologue and make his case. You shoot him in the head, burn his body and bury the ashes in concrete just for good measure. He will never be helpful and all you're going to have to show for it is a bunch of regrets. Come on, you boys are better than this! Oh, and the angels put Lucifer on the throne in Heaven? Sure. Whatever. You know, I really don't care if Heaven gets fixed--I actually think it's in a better state now than back when we met the angels in S4--but if anyone gets to fix Heaven, it should be Cass. Not that I think Lucifer can actually make more angels and/or that more angels will fix Heaven. Anyhoo, typical Horrible Duo fare: over-packed nonsense. I did, however, enjoy Cass's attitude quite a bit. Would've preferred he just stab Ketch in the face, but laughed at him basically being bored with the conversation.

Well, that was my thinking until he did have an accent when he possessed Kevin's mom.

I'm guessing it's for a number of reasons. One, to be more easily understood by American audiences. Two, because Rowena may be Scots, she hasn't actually lived in Scotland for at least a couple hundred years, so her accent would reflect the different places she's been living--not to mention there are different Scottish dialects and back when she was living in Scotland they would've been stronger. Three, it's part of Rowena's character to be exaggerated and over-the-top. So, I can understand why they asked her to work out a hybrid accent. The funny thing is, her accent never bothered me, but her way over-the-top mannerisms did at first. Once she toned some of that down, I grew to love her. But her accent always felt natural to the character for me. ETA: It's funny to me that Ruth has gotten so much crap about her "fake" accent, but no one mentions that Crowley never had a Scottish accent except the one time he possessed Kevin's mom. ;)

You know, if I were the archangel Micheal, who had already conquered my own universe and turned it into a pile of ashes, I don't think my first move would be to conquer another universe. If I was him I'd just want to come over and hang out...maybe get a cup of coffee and watch the sunrise. I just seems like a lot of work to end up with another pile of useless ashes... . ;)

That's been my take too. I don't think it was framed that Lucifer's true face is still what's keeping Sam up at night; he just could remember a time when it did and relate to Rowena's fear on that level. Nor do I think it was framed that he couldn't explain it to Dean, just that he never did. I mean, really, when you think about it, I'm not sure when Sam would've really had a chance to talk with Dean about his time in Hell. He came back soulless, then had a wall that blocked those memories, then started hallucinating and just was getting back to normal when Dean ended up in Purgatory and they're separated for a year. Then he spends the next couple years bickering with Dean and then another couple trying to save Dean from the MoC. By the time they get back on the same page it's literally been years since those memories were keeping him up at night. The talk and/or discussion just never happened was my take on the conversation. I think the memory is still there, but he's already learned how to cope with it. IMO, what's keeping Sam in a funk right now is his feeling helpless to save Mary and Jack and, his guilt for getting Kaia killed. I'm sure Lucifer still scares Sam on some level, but I don't think it's that same fear Rowena is currently experiencing because her trauma is so recent and raw.

Could be. Zachariah said his real forn had heads of lions or tigers or something. We've never actually seen the true form of an angel, but I would imagine it's actually quite majestic, even for Lucifer.

TBH, I would think Lucifer's true face--on this show, anyway--isn't scary at all, but beautiful. He's an archangel, after all. I imagine his true face is no scarier than Gabriel's true face or Castiel's, for that matter, even though Cass isn't an archangel.

OOOooh, someone other than me revived this thread. SWEET! I'll take a devilish, delightful D, please?

Moved to the Various and Sundry Villains thread since there are no spoilers and only speculation about what was in the episode itself.

From the spoilers thread, but there are no spoilers... My point is that I don't think the trauma is the face itself, but is the face Sam and Rowena has put on the trauma; it's the image in which they relive their trauma through. They may not even be seeing the same face. For instance, a rape survivor might relive their trauma through a smell or a particular sound. But the smell or the sound isn't the actual trauma, it's the trigger. That's what I mean that I don't think it was meant to be taken so literally. It seems standard survivor's trauma to me and not about the face itself. So, I fail to see how it re-frames Sam's Hell time at all. Seems to just reinforce what we've been told before.

I think he was talking about seeing Lucifer's true face was when he was possessed by Lucifer in S5 and probably some of his Hell memories--but like I said, I think it was more metaphorical; as in he showed his true nature not physically showing a disturbing face. Yeah, I agree, Cass said he could help, not that he could cure him entirely. I was under the impression he just minimized the damage to get Sam upwardly mobile again. I never got the impression Sam didn't remember Hell at all after S7, just that his memories were under control. I wasn't suggesting you were. I made the comparison as a way of explaining how traumatized I think Sam is at this point about his time in Hell; which is about the same as Dean. They both have memories they suppress, but it's not incapacitating them. They have learned to live with their memories, instead of letting their memories control them.

Yes, last year, they blanket renewed almost every show on the network in, I believe, January. I think we'll get a hint by the end of the month. I would guess they're still discussing Wayward, and I think both of those announcements will come at the same time. Oh, I don't know, seems like they've been doing approximately a 6-year cycle on Paleyfest. And, Supernatural has gotten a ton of main stream notice this year. I think it could just be they felt it was time to invite the boys back. I think a final season announcement will be at the Up Fronts--whenever that happens--and they'll make it a big deal. So, if we don't hear by the end of the month, it could be they're planning a final season announcement, but I don't think they'll announce it at Paleyfest.

I don't think Sam's memories were removed. Cass said he was able to shift the pain--which I think of as Cass healing Sam's soul to a certain degree--but I believe Sam remembers Hell, but those memories just don't come out and play with him anymore. I think Sam's got the same level of Hell trauma as Dean does at this point. Both of them remember it, neither have ever really dealt with it, though. However, I don't think Sam is all that traumatized by Satan these days. I think it's just another memory of a time he felt helpless and that's what's brought it up now, which was a bonding point for he and Rowena. I wouldn't be surprised if his attitude doesn't take a 180 after this next episode. It seems Cass fills them in on stuff, so I suspect they'll have a direction to move in again and Sam can focus his energy on that instead of sitting around over-thinking everything. I assumed he was talking about when he was possessed by Lucifer. And, I think it was more metaphorical than literal.

I think it could refer to our universe Michael, too. Or even alt-universe Micheal, if we're seeing how he sees himself or something like that.

My 15-year-old niece has a very similar T-shirt. Classic rock has made a resurgence over the last 10-15 years.

The funny thing is, I don't think they needed to hide ALL his hair, but just use the dunbonnet to keep it from standing out so readily. It would look really stupid--and I think somewhat suspicious--if all his hair was concealed inside a cap.

The difference being that I think Benjamin Franklin lived a slightly cushier lifestyle than Murtagh and was still in very poor health later in life. Not saying Murtagh couldn't have made it, but with his lifestyle of working his body very hard--even before he was a prisoner and indentured servant--I find it hard to believe that he's so agile at 70. But, such is the magic of television. ;)

That's funny! Sometimes their episode descriptions can be quite...interesting, too.

That's what I figured. There's always a counteraction in magic. So, she broke her binds, but she had to give up some of her own natural power in order to work the spell. So, yeah, I expect she's somewhat invincible, but maybe not quite as powerful as she was before. Well, I'm sure some of it was for effect, but Crowley's death took her by surprise. She may have hated him and wanted to punish him, but he was her son, after all. But, yeah, I figure her reaction was largely for Winchester effect.

As I recall, Sam didn't really remember either. It was the combination of them poking needles in his brain and Crowley getting him to remember so he would cast Gadreel out. But, the memories were there, just hidden. Just like they were for Dean until Tessa helped him remember. I think that was actually consistent. And, the reason Dean remembered Billie in Advanced Thantology and Red Meat is because Billie wanted him to remember. ETA: Got sidetracked...However, I've never believed that was actually Death in Sam's head in I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here. I could've been a reaper, I suppose, but the characterization was off for Death and as I recall Julian Richlings confirmed later it wasn't really Death. He didn't say who it actually was or if it was all an illusion, though. I think you mean Cass's hand, not Sam's.