ILoveReading

I guess Benny didn’t remind Sam enough of himself which means he didn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt.

https://www.spoilertv.com/2018/05/the-spoilertv-201819-known-episode.html If this is accurate we're only getting 20 episodes this season.

There seemed to be far more hype from the writers/showrunners/BTS people for episode 21. I don't get it, because my UO is that 21 was terrible and basically just a copy and paste of an episode that shall not be named.

My unpopular opinion is that none of the writers aren't talented enough to take on a complicated story like Lucifer's spawn and should never have gone there in the first place.

Agree. I wish they had brought Michael to our world sooner so they could have interacted more.

I wasn't saying that Dean not feeling guilty meant he was right or wrong. The show made sure to tell me how wrong Dean was. The entire episode was set up to make Dean the bad guy. I just mean I as a viewer it had a satisfying conclusion. I never really felt Sam feel guilty about Ruby, or Benny. That's why the apologies didn't work for. A quick, sorry means nothing if its followed up by "I went to her got get away from you." Sam's exact words. Plus, Benny was a half hearted, "he's okay, I guess." Dean did have to learn to accept Sam's powers or Kripke wouldn't have bought it up and made it a point of the finale. They whitewashed the demon blood drinking by suddenly out of the blue it was needed for Sam to contain Lucifer. Even though we, the audience, never heard of it before or since. IMO, thats the pure defintion of whitewashing. They even had Dean be a part of it. Sam blamed Dean for the soul thing in 7.17 when he said "you knew this would happen." We'll have to agree to disagree that the show was saying Sam was in the wrong here.

Posting this, just for science, of course

Ultimately, Dean ended up apologizing to Sam because Ruby treated him like an adult and Dean was too controlling which forced Sam into Ruby's arms. The outcome- "Dump Benny or I'll dump you." Dean's text message bought up numerous times but Sam's behaviorwas swept under the rug and Sam got his way in terms of Benny. Dean took his share of the blame, plus the show framed this as brotherly love. It's only a bad thing when Dean does it. Like with Ruby the outcome is that Dean had to let Sam grow up and learn to trust him. Not to mention Kripke's words that Dean had to learn to love Sam more and accept his cool powers. Sam gets promoted to General Winchester and no one ever calls Sam out on this being a mistake. Sam gets his own way when Dean joins. Sam goes to the cage with Dean's support. Again, no one calls Sam out on this behavior. The show swept it under the rug by having Cas say yes. Not according to the show which made sure to state many times in canon that he was wrong to do this. This one I'll concede and I'll admit that arc had a highly satisfying conclusion for me becasue Dean didn't back down or apologize for killing Amy. He never felt guilty about it or thought he was wrong to do so. I always wished those two writers were given another episode. Dean might be right but more often than not, I find its Sam's POV that's given validation.

Yeah, the writers failed miserably in the nature/nurture thing. Never once did I think think Jack was anything but a nougat loving cinnamon roll. I never felt he was going to go off white, let alone evil all season. In the last few episodes if the writers truly wanted me to feel "oh noes, Lucifer might be influencing Jack," I, as a viewer should have been worried or at last had doubts that Jack would side with Lucifer over the Winchesters. I didn't. Not even for a second.

I believe the writers set out to make Dean the bad guy with the whole Jack situation. They wrote him extra vanilla to make Dean's attitude seem worse and they barely touched on his grief. The one episode we get into his head space Cas is immediately brought back. But at the same time we get scenes of Sam bonding with Jack, and when Dean laid it out that Sam was using Jack there was a scene where Sam got to explain his feelings. Don't even get me started on that horrid "grief" episode.

When Dean opens up he's frequently told to suck it up or he's somehow doing feelings wrong. TBH, it doesn't bother me that much if someone opens up to Dean and repeats this. Its what he's been taught by those around him. If its okay for Dean because of "circumstances" then it should be okay for other character too. After Sam tried to tell him he couldn't. I liked that Dean went his own way. Good for him for sticking up for himself. Dean tried to tell Sam he didn't want Jack on the hunt. Sam didn't listen and tried to shove Jack at Dean harder. Plus, I don't see Dean being comfortable with Sam on a hunt with someone he didn't trust. Sam only backed off after the got his own way. I always felt that 13.5 and 13.4 should have been reversed. If the episode after Dean's feelings was Sam telling Dean to get away it would have made Sam appear so much more understanding and Dean's attitude in 13.04 more understandable.

After Dean agreed Jack could come back to the bunker, Sam could have said, "I know your not his biggest fan, I'll take responsibility for him I'm just asking you to be civil. " When the case from Missouri came in Sam could have said, "Hey Dean, I caught a case why don't you take it, I'll stay with Jack." Because later that same ep, Sam had zero issues going out and leaving Jack alone. Instead he told Dean he had to stay and help. Or Sam could have said, lets go on a case me and you, since once again leaving Jack alone in the bunker wasn't an issue for Sam when he felt the need to go out. Dean flat out told Sam he was having trouble being around Jack. Sam didn't listen, so he cant' exactly be surprised when Dean grew more hostile. Which is another example of Sam's complete lack of awareness where it concerns Dean.

Dean as the Michael sword was completely ineffective against Lucifer. If they bring him back right away, it makes Dean's sacrifice completely ineffective and even more pointless. The could have done this with any other weapon other than Michael's. The episode also make sure to not even mention Dean's connection to Michael but it also diminished Dean's actions in s11 finale by saying it was the power of God that stopped Amara.

Given Dabb's hard on for Lucifer/Mark Pellegrino, I highly doubt Lucifer's "death" is going to last past the first episode.

A good way to get around the seperation problem would Michael having Dean in lockdown by sending him on hunts with Sam. We, the audience, see the hunt but in reality it’s all in Deans head but in each one something isn’t quiet right. Like the Impala being messy and full of fast food containers, or someone is too nice to him leads Dean to realizing something is off alllowing him to fight. The bookend of the MOTW eps could be Sam chasing a lead. There are ways to work around it without just throwing the storyline away. But I don’t think we’ll get much of Deans internal struggle. I think they’ll just copy and paste Demon Dean.

Like I said, Im not sure if its true or not especially since both Jared and Jensen have said they dont' know what direction the story will take.

Posting this here in case its a spoiler Apparently Mark P asked if people thought Lucifer was really dead and mentioned Nephilim grace.

I tend to think this will just be a repeat of Demon Dean. The first episode and a half see Michael some bad (but not terribly so) things to no name people. Then Sam and Cas will catch up with him, capture him and then somehow force Michael out. Dean gets lectured by Bobby, Sam, Cas and Mary for being so reckless. No way Dabb lets Dean show any kind of strenght. He wouldn't even let him get the best of Lucifer in this last ep. TBH, I think this mostly came about becasue the actor who plays Michael got cast in another show. His availability becasue either very restricted or not at all, so Dabb say, lets just throw him him Jensen's way for an episode or two until we can cast someone else.

https://www.tvinsider.com/690495/supernatural-season-14-spoilers-sam-dean-michael/ So basically just a repeat of DemonDean

If the amulet had fallen out of Dean's pocket and it was the amulet that gave Dean strength to stab Lucifer then I'd say its comparable to Swan Song. But Sam himself go the assist, not an avatar of Sam. That for me is the difference. Sam still could have been given the assist even if Dean won the fight. Disagree because again this is dismissing what Dean went through as not as important or as traumatizing as what Sam did. From a character standpoint Dean's hell experience fundamentally changed him, and to say that doesn't matter because it wasn't given screen time is belittling Dean's trauma as not that big a deal. It's like in that episode of the Big Bang Theory. Penny asks Sheldon to share something personal. Sheldon says that he;s not okay with Youtube changing their user ratings system. Penny mocks it and when Sheldon points out she hurt his feelings she says she didn't think it was a big deal. Sheldon points out its big deal to him and that was the point. This is how Dean's hell time should be treated. It mattered to Dean. So it shouldn't matter if Alastair was on screen five minutes or five years. The point is, its a big deal to Dean's character. It should be treated as such. IMO, this isn't an excuse for the writer to ignore how much Dean suffered.

I wouldn't worry too much. Im sure Michael will want to get rid of his weak vessel as soon as possible. I bet Dabb cant' wait to write that ep

Not that the writers follow their rules but technically Sam couldn't kill Lucifer because the writers put themselves in a corner with the whole Archangels can only kill Archangels with the special arch angel blade. I think this ep was basically Dabb giving the victory to Sam. First we had Jack telling Sam he believed in him and that he could could take out Lucifer. Then we get an fully powered Dean coming in and basically not be able to to single thing against Lucifer, until Sam threw him the blade. I think this was Dabb making sure Sam got the win.

Dean lost that fight. It wasn't even close. Dean would be dead and so would Michael if Sam wans't there. It was more than an assist. Given Dabb's unexplainable love of Mark P and Lucifer there is no guarantee Lucifer is going to stay dead. The show has had multiple chances to either send him back to the cage and end him but they never took any of them. Plus, if this is supposed to be Dean posistive why muddy the waters of why Dean said yes by putting Sam in danger. Why not have Sam decide he wasn't going to let Dean go it alone, like in Swan Song (the show repeats itself all the time). The scene could have played out like it did. Plus, Sam saved Dean ealier in the ep by having the idea to call Jack. Not to mention when things started going sideways, Mary's line was "lets call Sam." Not Sam and Dean. That, IMO is very telling. This is my major pet peeve. The dismissing of significant events in Dean's life becasue they fail in comparison to Sam's traumas. Even if he was only in a couple of episodes the impact he had on Dean was just as significant as the impact Lucifer had on Sam. He turned Dean into the thing Dean hated the most. I think its unfair to dismiss it because it 'wasn't as long as Sam's. or given as much screen time Dean's character will never have closure with Alistair and he'll always know Alistair got the best of him where as this isn't true with Sam. He's had several confrontations with Lucifer where he got the best of him. Including a major assist in this one. Dean failed as the Michael sword. I think this was Dabb's intention. He thinks Dean is inferior to Sam and I think its more than evident in the writing. The writers can't even give Dean a scholarly moment without having to make him struggle with a simple latin word. A language Dean's been exposed to since he was four. I disagree about the Yellow Eyed Demon. I think Dean was just as effected by him as Sam, just in a different way. Dean lost his childhood, and his identity because of that night. Events that destroyed his sense of self and self esteem to this very episode. I think its unfair to dismiss it because Dean wasn't the YED's primary target. Plus, the show made sure to create a Cain/YED hybrid just so Sam could get his own kill, and with the Michael's lance no less. So Im sure Sam will get to kill Michael in the end. I wouldn't even be surprised if the writers give Sam his own possession storyline with Cage Michael. This isn't directed at you Companion Envy as I don't believe it was the intention behind your post, just more my frustration that he writers for continually dismissing everything Dean has been through.

I see people saying that Michael has to deal with Dean. But this is Dabb's Dean and obviously Dabb dosen't see Dean as heroic or strong. He sees him as an extention of Sam. Period. Tonight made that obvious. So I wouldn't be surprised if Dean's just along for ride with Sam once again getting all the heroic and saving Dean rather than Dean overcoming Michael.

Michael was supposed to have extra juice from having his sword. There was no point in Dean saying yes if it didn't really change anything