ILoveReading

I didn't really find Sam's support was unconditional because later in the season when everyone was piling on Dean about not wanting to kill Amara, Sam sat there in silence and didn't defend Dean. Sam talks a good game. Maybe its because I used to volunteer in a vocational center and one of the hardest things I had to learn was that if someone was struggling with their confidence doing it for them was the worst thing because you were taking away their power. I guess I wanted to see Sam try to build Dean up. Because even thought I know it wasn't the writers intention, it came across that Sam agreed that Dean wasn't strong enough.

I have wanted to see Jensen play Michael for years. But he's not playing Michael. He's playing a facsimile of Michael. With Michael there was two things i wanted to see. That Dean saying yes wasn't about saving Sam (or even just about saving Sam), and that Dean being Michael's true vessel meant something. Not things I believe are unrealistic or unreasonable expectations. What I get, a rushed story. Dabb litterally waited until the last possible second he could wait before he introduced Dean saying yes. It was rushed and was about Sam. It was just more of the co-dependcy. There has to be a reason why all this "kiddie table" save Sammy stuff came up again. Lucifer wiped the floor with Michael. He got in one punch. He would be dead if Sam hadn't saved the day, so this seems more Sam's kill then Dean's. So being Michael's true vessel meant nothing. When Lucifer comes back, it will all have been pointless anyway. So yes, I'm a big Dean fan but its also why I'd be more than okay with the character being off screen or away. Because its not like he's going to get many heroic moments anyway. Dabb sees the character as the sloppy, needy comic relief guy.

This is what I'm expecting. Dabb is saving real Michael so that when the time comes for the real battle Sam will say yes with a big build up, and he'll take out Lucifer, AU Michael before heroically sacrificing himself by killing Real World Michael by stabbing himself. Dean will gaze adoringly, he certainly won't get an active save. Using this to set Dean up to fail so that there is a valid in show reason as to why Sam should be the one to say yes would be right up Dabb's alley. He couldn't even let Dean hold his own with Lucifer. Sam had to save the day. In the aftermath I don't expect anyone to thank Dean for "stepping up." Bobby will lecture Dean for being an idjit. Mary will be concerned at how this effected Sam and lecture Dean on how he didn't take Sam's feelings into account. Cas will lecture Dean on how much he disappointed him. Sam will lecture Dean about the kiddie table thing again and complain that Dean promised to let him take care of Lucifer.

Also its possible to make someone's presence felt even when they aren't on screen. Even though Misha wasn't in the early episodes, Cas was still very much a part of them. We saw Dean struggle to cope and put one foot in front of the other. I would like too see something similar with Cas, Sam and Mary. Let's see them talk about Dean. Actually voice some of the good things he's done, show them struggling to cope with Dean's absence. Gone but not forgotten. As @gonzosgirrl said, there are ways to show Dean as not being a passive victim. Not to mention several opportunities they have use MOTW eps creatively. They could do pretty much anything if its an ep taking place in Dean's head. It could be how Michael is burying Dean. By sending him on "hunts" but there could be little small difference that Dean notices to show him something isn't quite right. The possibilities and opportunities for creativity are there if the writer choose to take advantage of it. I don't think they want to.

Up next is episode 13 1. Route 666- I know this is usually considered one of the worst episodes of the show, but I liked it. I thought we got some good insight into Dean. It also showed that in his own way Dean did rebel against John. Sam walked away but still chose to follow John's rules. Dean stayed but he broke cardinal rule number one to not tell anyone what they do. I didn't really like the story much it was kind of 'meh but it was a really good character piece for Dean. It's yet another example of Dean not being emotionally closed off. 2. Houses of the Holy- This is another episode I liked. I think Dean's confession why he doesn't' believe is very underrated. 3. Ghostfacers- not really a Sam and Dean ep, but I did like that we got Smart Dean on display with him making the magnet that wiped out the harddrive. Plus, I liked seeing Dean swear (even if it was bleeped out. 4.After School Special- This ep really had nothing good Dean related, other than a shallow moment of Jensen dressed in that gym outfit. This episode made me appreciate just how much Jensen brings to the role of Dean. I found everything about young Dean to be completely ooc. 5.The Song Remains the Same- I really liked this ep. I liked seing Dean interact with Mary and John and his confrontation with Michael was great acting by Jensen. It left me really wanting to see Jensen play Michael. Too bad it didn't materialize. But that is a discussion for another thread. 6. Unforgiven- This episode makes my top 10 worst eps. I don't even remember anything Dean did in this ep. 7. The Slice Girls- The less said about this episode the better. 8.Everybody Hates Hitler- Okay enough episode but nothing really special about it. I enjoyed Dean's reaction to Aaron flirting with him. 9. The Purge- As weird as this sounds because there was nothing really good for Dean in this ep, I loved it. It's in my top 10 list. I really liked Dean and his interactions with Donna. Jensen's acting was just on another level. Acting teachers should use it to explain "finding what's not on the page." There was so much going on with Dean in this ep. He was trying to hard to keep things normal with Sam and pretend he wasn't hurt, but not quite managing it. The way his control slipped and he almost became manic in the interview. How Dean just looked so tired and done this whole episode. How Jensen managed to take Dean's exhaustion and double it after he was roofied. Seriously, for me this was an emmy award winning performance for Jensen. Seriously how does Jensen manage to turn his eyes on and off like that? 10. Halt and Catch Fire- Kind of a 'meh ep. The only thing I really remember is Dean talking to the girl assuring her that he understood and made mistakes too. 11. Love Hurts- I didn't like this one at all. Dean finally winning rock/paper/sissors was a cute moment but that was it. I thought the conversation at the end was very overrated and not supportive of Dean at all. Dean's confidence is down about his connection to Amara (despite that fact that he beat her twice but forget about that because look- shiny BM). Why didn't Sam reassure Dean he'd do it if necessary but that Dean was strong than he thinks he is. 12. Family Feud- Another ep that didn't really make an impression. I remember being glad that Dean knew the knife was aztec but other than that I don't remember much about it. 13. Devil's Bargain- I wanted to like this ep because of Danneel. But too much Lucifer. I don't think Dean was even needed for this ep as there isn't anything I think would change if he wasn't in it. Overall ep 13 seems to be a mixed bag. Favorite- The Purge Least Favourite - After School Special

The problem is that after the reveal there is no good story reason, IMO, why a guy who wasn't supposed to care, tried to act like Sam. Or would want to suddenly have a hunting partner he would have to answer too. If Souless Sam can suddenly need Dean for....reasons then the writers can do the same with with Michael Dean. There could be. Michael could give Dean control back. Or he could lie and say that Dean's body was damaged by Lucifer's smiting and he's the only think keeping Dean alive. But reality is its actually Michael the whole time. Jensen would excel at playing Michael pretending to be Dean. (I don't care if its a repeat of Gadreel. They repeat Dean's stories with Sam often enough). There are plenty of ways to maintain the status quo but still have Michael around for an extended period. If its dropped after an ep or two its because the writers were too lazy to put any kind of effort into things or they don't actually want to.

Putting this response here in response to a comment in the spoiler thread just to be on the safe side. No spoilers in this post. The comment was dropping Demon Dean because of the 200th episode. For me this isn't' an acceptable excuse because IMO, good show runners who talk to each other and plan arcs and should have been able to come up with a creative way around the problem if the concept of singing school girls absolutely had to be the concept of the 200th. They could have had Demon Dean realize that Sam and cas wouldn't stop so he pretended to be cured. There would have been the interesting element of Demon Dean not being able to handle things like salt. Jensen excels at subtlety so we could have seen little things to show that Dean wasn't Dean and Sam and/or Cas getting suspicious. Or Dean's meat suit was dead. Sam could have realized that completing the cure would kill Dean so Dean was some kind of demon/human hybrid. Dean fighting to keep the human side dominate would have given Jensen a challenge. Again adds another element to MOTW eps. Or it would have been cool to see Dean disappear in the middle of a hunt because he was summoned to make a deal. Or the simplest thing of all is change theme of episode 200. It wasn't written in stone that Fan Fiction had to be the 200th, and have it focus on Demon Dean rather than teenagers pretending to be be Sam and Dean. If they can think of a reason why Souless Sam, who wasn't supposed to have emotions, would suddenly decide hunting with Dean was better than hunting alone they could come up with a reason why Demon Dean would hunt with Sam. If they can't think of anything say he decided to do it for shits and giggles. Plain and simple they didn't want to. The writers just had no interest in the demon Dean storyline. No one was even on the same page about how long Dean was gone from the bunker. One said one week, another said a couple, and I think Carver said 6 weeks. It sounds like they left it up to Jensen to chose the direction. While flattering on one hand, its also reeks of the writers pure laziness. IIRC this was also a contract year. As it was, Dean didn't even need to be a demon to make that story line happen. They could have had Dean just get fed up and walk away. Then after they dropped it they had no plan for the rest of the season. No one sat down and discussed exactly what the mark was or what it did. It kept changing to suit a particular writers whims. So this is why I don't have faith in the writers to do the Michael Dean story justice. Given the lack of build up and the cheesy way the finale was filmed I still think it was about offering Jensen extra incentive to sign a new contract. It wouldn't surprise me if they dropped it after ep 3 (or even before) because there is some quirky concept the writers want to go with or if the writers decide that a wayward sisters ep just had to go there.

Responding in bitch/jerk just to be on the safe side.

I'd like to see it go until the 300th ep. With the focus of the 300th on saving Dean with an It's a Wonderful life type episode. But I think it will go 2 1/2 eps with a story similiar to Demon Dean. We'll see Michael exploring things he's never seen in this world (Stranger in a strange land), things like Netflix and strip clubs. Short glimpes of Dean in Michael's head flirting and eating. Sam and Jack will angst about wanting to save Dean. They'll catch up with him in episode 2. Ep 3 will be Sam, Cas and Jack trying to save Dean. They'll save him with a spell or Jack will over himself as a vessel. Then we'll get the aftermath in ep 4 and then the storyline will be done. The problem is that SPN wrote itself into a corner with the whole only an arch angel can kill an arch angel. Which means that if Lucifer's brought back and Michael is still on the lose the only way to stop them would be for someone to say yes again.

According to spoiler TV Episode 1- Stranger in a Strange Land Episode 2- Gods and Monsters

From @catrox14 in the spoiler thread. Other then Jensen getting to stretch his acting muscles a bit as Michael I can't get excited about this storyline with Dabb behind it. This is why. I think it will be very shallow and superficial. I think we'll get a glimpses of Dean and see lots of sloppy eating and flirting with woman. I wouldn't be surprised if Dabb Simpsonizes* this storyline as well and show that Jack and Sam are doing perfectly fine without Dean and hunting successfully and bonding and then Jack saving Dean with his powers or with a spell rather than letting Dean fight off Michael. Then Dean having to prove he trusts Sam again and learn to let him go because ultimately Dean failed with both controlling Michael and killing Lucifer whom I fully expect to be back. *Simponize- Is a reference to an episode of The Simpsons where Homer gets to see what his families life would be like if he wans't in their lives and everyone of them was better off.

Will respond in bitter spoilers

Alex posted a pic of the script with the title scribbled out but he didn’t quite get all of it. So spec is that the title of the first ep is Stranger in a Strange Land.

This is not unpopular with me. I haven't connected with Sam since early s5. My unpopular opinion is that I would be okay if Jensen played Michael the entire season and Dean didn't come back at all.

This might be more upopular opinion but I don't think the writers should be mingling with fans at fan run events. As for the fight scene, no one had a problem asking Jensen about it or criticized or booed the person. So why should Singer be off limits for that question? He's the who decided to go that route. Questions like, why did you film it as a high wire fight? How did you feel it turned out in the end, why did you decide to go for a freeze frame? In my opinion all fair questions. In the end, nobody's opinion is fact regarding the like or dislike of something creative. I remember watching Siskel and Ebert review movies. They might have been respected critics but in the end nothing they said was facts, just opinion. There were movies I loved that they hated and movies I hated that they loved. I'm still expecting Pellegrino back at some point. Dabb's far to enamoured of the character.

My favorite Dean video of all time. I'm so glad Volta was a Dean girl. I miss her videos.

Benny knew Dean was a hunter. If he really had a plan to start eating people again getting rid of Dean would have been strategic since if he got wind of vampire like killings that he had to know he'd be a suspect and Dean would come after him. Because Ruby proved herself to be untrustworty before Dean even died. In No Rest for the Wicked. She lied about being able to save Dean, and when Dean got the knife off her she made it clear how disappointed she was not to get to watch Dean burn. Plus, when Dean got topside from hell he gave Ruby several chances. He thanked her for saving Sam and for helping them. When Sam explained, Dean listened. He even agreed to work with her. Plus, in Heaven and Hell getting the angels and demons together was Sam's idea. Ruby was a big part of that plan since she was tasked with bringing the demons. Even if Dean didn't trust her he had to believe in Sam's faith in her. To quote Dean in Everyone Loves a Clown- "These are your issues quit dumping them on me." Just because Sam got burned by Ruby doesn't mean that Benny would do the same thing. The main difference is that Dean gave Ruby repeated, multiple chances. Sam didn't. He wanted Benny to be guilty.

Please let this be true.

Yup. If you have to be guilted into an apology by Lucifer of all people how sorry is a person really in the first place. I didn't even really need Sam to say he was sorry for not looking. All I wanted to see from him was understand about why Dean was so hurt. Something Sam doesn't seem capable of.

I worded that badly. No, I don't think Sam was right, I think the writers intention was for Sam to be right. As for bringing it up 3 years later, I think that was more to let Sam off the hook. Sam didn't apologize or say he was sorry. He said he's never forgive himself. Then they have Dean just brush it off saying he did. Dean would have looked like a dick if he still showed hurt or anger over it. That really didn't' work because Sam never showed any guilt or remorse for it. Why couldn't the they just have Sam say, "Sorry I hurt you by not looking." Benny did have a bit of a darkside. He went after the crew that killed him for revenge. If the writers were supporting Dean they would have given him a voice when Sam demanded Dean cut Benny out of his life.

Ive always felt the whole "Benny is a better brother" was done with the intent of painting Dean as the bad guy for being mean to poor little Sammy and hurting his feelings. Because if Sam was intended to be the bad guy or wrong the narrative would have called Sam out on his actions. It didn't. It didn't bring them up or even mention them or have Sam apologize for leaving Dean handcuffed to radiator. It wouldn't' have had Charlie canonically say that Dean ruined Sam's life, conveniently forgetting that Sam left before Dean came back and once again removing Dean's voice here. They also had Dean give in to Sam's temper tantrum and demands. Dean- in or out but make a choice. Sam- dump Benny or I'll dump you. But yet somehow Dean's the one that's controlling. (Insert massive eye roll). Then there was poor woobie Sammy with being so sick from the trials and Dean having to support him, but that support was seen by Sam as babying and once again Dean had to prove to Sam he trusted him. They had Dean bring up all Sam's transgressions, included him being souless. IMO, that was done to put the focus on Dean blaming Sam for something beyond his control so the rest of Dean's points could be ignored. Then the wording, "What happens the next time you decide not to trust me." Putting the burden of trust on Dean's failure to support Sam rather than Sam's actions. Nope. If the show wanted me to see Sam as the bad guy they failed. I think their intention was to give Dean that honor but once again they under estimated Jensen's talent to soften even the harshest writing. For me the authorial intent right from Singer's interview of how Dean was being unfair and mean to Dean grovelling to Sam couldn't have been made clearer. This is why Season 8 is the worst season ever. Jared also called Gadreel a wet dream storyline. So I agree with this. I

This, more than anything turned me off Sam's character. One line if Fallen Idols did more damage to the character for me than anything Sam did in s4.

If Benny was only using Dean had the perfect opportunity to dispose of him just after Dean resurrected him. When Dean hugged him he had the chance to rip his throat out. No one would have noticed or cared because no one gave a damn that Dean went missing. Benny earned Dean's trust. Not because he saved Dean but because he saved Cas. He didn't have too, he easily could have been a second too late. When Dean went to confront Benny he bought a machete. So it wasn't a blind trust. This is true of any monster Sam and Dean let go. They let the werewolf Kate go on even less. They didn't monitor Lenore or Amy's child to make sure they didn't kill. Emma's mission was to kill her father to fully be accepted into their society. The amazons didn't come across as mindless killers (other than fathers) so if she agreed not to kill Dean that, IMO is a big sigh that she doesn't want to be a killer. As much as I don't like that Dean lied to Sam at least he did his own dirty work and disposed of Amy himself instead of hiring someone to do it for him so he could keep his hands clean. Sam also lied to Dean and took off in the middle of the night. So he doesn't exactly have have the moral high ground here. Sam still could have let Dean in from the beginning. "Hey Dean, I think I caught a case. I need to check this out for reasons, XYZ." What's forgotten a lot of the time is that Sam shouldn't have been hunting on his own. He was still zoning out and seeing Lucifer. When Dean found Sam gone you (general you) can't blame him for thinking the worst. Sam's judgement wasn't sound. It was compromised. So if he involved Dean from the start maybe things would have turned out different. Sam gave reasons for Dean to question his decisions. Was it him or Lucifer making them. Its reasonable to Dean to feel this. This is a big issue with Sam for me. I find the show is allergic to having Sam say I'm sorry without adding a whole list of qualifiers, buts, if onlies, excuses and its only my fault because you made me do its. I find the show tends to say that Sam is in the wrong because other people didn't accept Sam's actions rather than the actions themselves.

This ep seems to have been written for the sole purpose of letting Sam play lawyer rather than truly exploring Dean's guilt. I disliked Sam once again putting the blame for things on Dean. No, Sam it wasn't "complicated." The yellow eyed demon was stalking him and had his friends possessed. Jessica was dead the minute she went out with Sam. Dean showing up didn't change this.

I disagree here because the situations really weren't the same thing. Sam allowed Amy to state her case and he believed her, despite there being enough holes in her story to drive multiple 18 wheelers through. Sam, wanted to believe what Amy was saying and he walked away. Dean had a gun pointed at Emma. He was trying to talk her down and let her know that she really did have a choice. She was hesitant to partake in the rituals so she obviously had doubts. Its impossible to say if Dean would have succeeded, because Sam busting in when and how he did triggered Emma's flight or fight reflex. So I don't think Dean chocked because its like he was taken out before the play was over. The Amy situation reminds me of the movie John Q. It's about a guy whose son needs a heart transplant but he doesn't have the right kind of insurance so they won't pay. So he takes matters into his own hands and holds the hospital hostage and forces them at gun point to give the heart to his son. Now, as a viewer I can definitely sympathize with the father but that doesn't make what he did right. He put a lot of people in danger and the person the heart was supposed to go to also had a family that loved him just as much as John Q loved his son. The movies old but I'll spoiler tag the ending just in case. Dean's criticized for killing Amy because she didn't deserve it because she was just trying to save her child. Okay, I can understand that but at the same time she was committing first degree murder. She chose, stalked, murdered her victims and ate their brains. Just because she was killing victims no one would miss doesn't make it okay. Why does she get a free pass for doing the exact same thing,Dean did? Did she bother to find out the reason behind her victims behavior? What if the drunk driver just found out his son was dying? What if he was a good guy who just did something completely stupid. It happens. What happens if Amy needed a body and there as no "lowlife" around. Would someone who jaywalked or smoked a joint qualify? What gave Amy the right to play Judge, jury and executioner? When Dean said that Amy was who she was, I never thought he meant he was killing her because she was a monster but a mother protecting her child. If it became necessary to kill again to protect her child she would. And it would be necessary if you (general you) looked at her story. If it was just about being a monster, Dean wouldn't have let the kid live. It was about Amy killing. Sam didn't know Amy at all. She was a girl he had a crush on and spent a couple of hours with, then didn't see or hear about for over a decade. He hadn't nothing to base her guarantee on. He was planning to kill her until she told him why she was killing and Sam was okay with her promise she was done. IIRC, the drunk driver got away. When Sam caught up with Amy later she literally had blood on her hands? Who did she kill? Who were the four bodies that alerted Sam? I don't think it said. She told Sam she was working at the morgue for 6 years. If Sam was 14 or 15 at the time, and it had been about 15 or 16 years since he'd seen her this leaves about 6 or 7 years unaccounted for. (I I did the math right). How did she support herself them. Where did she get her brains. Amy was also going one the run at the end of this ep. Which meant no longer working at the morgue. Again where is she going to get brains? She also said her son got sick from eating dead brains and needed fresh ones to get better. The fact that she knew immediately how to treat him strongly suggests this happened in the past. It also guarantees that its going to happen in the future. So I strongly disagree Amy didn't need to die because there is a very high probability that her body count was a lot higher than four and circumstances dictated that it was about to get higher. Just because Amy had a pretty face and a sob story doesn't give her a free pass.