Fallacy

I don’t believe Zanab’s story about what Cole supposedly said about the bachelor party. That cuties scene was very revealing, and I think the producers showed it to us to let us see how much Zanab blew that way, way, way out of proportion. SK and Raven are officially my favorites. Matt is still scary, and I don’t know what Colleen is doing. Alexa a bit of a snob, and she is too judgmental.

I am surprised to be thrilled that DJ won. DJ could have easily done Gian’s tattoo, but Gian cannot do what DJ can do. And yes, Ryan can be annoying but I think she was 100% right. Angel only voted for Gian out of loyalty anyway. When she was talking with Anthony to decide on who would make it the top three, she said Gian played it safe and there was no way she would vote for safe. Then she turned around and did exactly that after her beloved Bob got cut. If she were honest, all four of those peers would have voted for DJ. Also, I love Ami, but if he’s going to be this much of a traditionalist, he can get off my show. Had DJ thrown in one more creature in the left part of the upper back, this would not have been close at all.

We did see Natalie’s apartment. It was definitely an expensive place in a high rise in Chicago. It was also perfectly furnished and pristine. I’d say she has plenty of money.

Shaina is not a good person, and I think she looks around 40, not 31. I was so glad to see how deeply disgusted Shayne was by her behavior. And while the camera tried to make it out like Natalie was staring at them talking the whole time, I think Natalie accepted that Shayne had to film that scene for the show and had enough confidence in her relationship to not worry about it too much. Why am I rooting for them, I don’t know, but Shayne has won me over.

Exactly. I read that thread on Reddit, and she is 100% taking all that speculation and presenting it as “insider” knowledge. I call bullshit. She knows nothing more than the rest of us do. I think we will find out what happened at some point though because I can’t imagine that after filming the entire season and releasing early promos for it, UPtv just decided “let’s not air it because we want to focus on scripted television.” That explanation makes zero sense. Something bigger has to be at play, but I don’t think that anyone outside of the inner Bates circle and UPtv executives knows what that something is.

I can’t believe nobody on the panel got Lady Camden’s reference to the movie “Center Stage”! It was the similar outfit, same music, and most of the same moves from the big finale of that movie: Center Stage Final Dance I was so disappointed that they didn’t acknowledge the reference because Lady Camden is officially one of my favorites for doing that performance on drag race. I don’t like that they are using Maddie for buzz and are clearly ready to boot her for any minor flaw. She was one of the few girls who brought a real talent and yet she was in the bottom three even with her awesome runway look. That was nonsense. I’m also disappointed that Daya Betty wasn’t better. I wanted to like her as much as I liked Crystal Method, but nope. At least the right queen won the episode, in my opinion.

I believe her that she and Ben paid for the house and for the renovations with money they earned from the show and her social media. They haven’t had a mortgage or even a car payment for over five years so I see no reason why they shouldn’t have enough money saved up for this house. I’m also guessing she’s paying Jase and “Jack” for the labor. I would guess Jase has own LLC and limited contractor’s license. He likely gave her a steep discount and then will use these videos and/or pictures in the future to show potential clients what he is capable of. There is no way Gil Bates is allowing his son to do work for free when he could be back in Tennessee helping the Gil with his tree business. I’m actually happy for her and her kids. This house is twice the size of their current one and I’m sure will be much more comfortable for everyone.

I wish I could take screen shots because in this case, he’s actively working with these books as he is taking notes. They’re not on a bookcase. The workbook is on his desk, and the Bible books are on a shelf that is part of his desk. I totally get what you are saying about Jeremy having collections of books that he never touches, but if you watch this clip, it’s pretty clear that he is using MacArthur’s materials to prepare his sermon. ETA: It stuck out to me because at that time, we knew nothing about his MacArthur or Calvinism beliefs, but looking back, it’s clear that he was into MacArthur long before he went to the Masters Seminary.

I want to know why inmates’ phone/video visit records are made available to the public if requested. I mean forget Anna and Josh for a second. Why should some random person on the internet be able to access those records? That seems so invasive to me.

I think Jeremy knew everything about Mac’s beliefs well before he entered the Masters Seminary. If you can find it, one of the episodes of Counting On shows Jinger and Jeremey in the Laredo apartment. She’s doing laundry and he’s “working” at home on his sermons. On his desk, you can see MacArthur materials, including a workbook and several books on his shelves. I’ve searched YouTube for the clip, but I can’t find it. I can tell you that it’s season 5, episode 2 of Counting On. Check the 10:47 mark and you will see the book “John MacArthur’s Fundamentals of Faith.” This book is show in connection with a series of books from the Bible that have MacArthur’s name on them.

Jessa had some fun snark in the comments on that video

He’s saying Josh should be found guilty, in lawyer speak. He’s saying it would be unreasonable to think he’s innocent given the evidence presented. Reddit has a whole discussion in which multiple people explain the phrase “unreasonable doubt.” But it boils down to this: Derrick is saying Josh should be found guilty.

Yes. If you were one of the chosen ones, you would experience God’s “irresistible grace,” which is the I in Calvin’s TULIP. What that means is that you would hear God calling you and would be unable to resist submitting to him. So you don’t be a murderer or a thief because you would submit yourself to God’s authority. You wouldn’t be able to resist. Here is the definition of the term “ irresistible grace”: Irresistible grace is a doctrine in Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism, which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom He has determined to save and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ.

I still don’t understand what Ben is carrying in the picture. Can anybody fill me in?

Here’s the link if anyone wants to read the basic outline of today’s court hearing: https://www.dropbox.com/s/htqphkzyneb8uco/Minute Order for Hearing 9-27-21.pdf?dl=0 ETA: Here’s how a lawyer on Reddit described the outcome: The motions to dismiss and/or suppress evidence were DENIED meaning the Defense was unsuccessful. The case will proceed as normal, likely with more plea deals being offered, more discovery(fact investigation), and drafting of appeals (for the Defense). Not sure about what's going on with the Franks hearing motion. Even if the Court grants it all that happens is an evidentiary hearing to determining the validity of the granting and execution of the warrant, so it's not a game-changer either way, for now, even if it gets granted. The exhibits of the cheques were likely used to show when the employees/witnesses started working at the car lot, so law enforcement could explain why a thorough investigation of those witnesses was not necessary, nor was making a forensic imaging of their phones. The witnesses we now know by name are Witness 1 and Witness 3 with the names Matthew Waller (Anna's brother) and Randall Steve Barry (I don't recognize the name from the DCU - Duggar Cinematic Universe). We don't know which is which.

I’m not sure it’s possible to “accidentally” download CSA as the average computer user. I think folks like Josh have to first do some research into where and how to get it. It’s not something the average person knows how to access.

I guess it could be argued that the boys don’t get their own thread until they’re in a courtship too, so why is Jana so special? I happen to agree that Jana deserves her own thread, but I can see the slippery slope that could lead to unless there’s a decision that all the Duggar kids get their own thread at a certain age.

@quarks I don’t want to quote your entire post, but I did want to note that I read it and get where you’re coming from. I think Emily’s point is that if the feds had evidence that Josh was involved in the production of cp at the time of his arrest, they would have to charge him with that then. Now if they found that evidence of that crime in the months since, yes, they could then charge him with it. But they can’t just hold onto that evidence as a threat to suggest that if he doesn’t accept a plea for the receiving and distribution charge, they will then tack on a production charge. That’s my understanding of what she meant. But again, I completely get where you’re coming from, and you may be absolutely correct that they could tack on production charges, but they’re sticking with the receiving and distribution charges for now because that’s what they can 100% prove. But I just can’t imagine that if they had evidence to support a production charge, which comes with a much heavier sentence, that they wouldn’t have started there and negotiated their way down to a plea deal for the receiving and distribution charges.

Really? Wow, that’s real money! I hate that Josh has that kind of money. But I assume that’s money they’ve lived off since the TV money went away. 300K divided by 6 years off TV is only 50K per year in spending money. Of course, they don’t appear to pay a mortgage or even rent, so hopefully, she still has quite a bit of it. Then again, I’m sure he’s paying some of the lawyer fees Jim Bob is stingy, so while he will certainly not leave Anna penniless after paying for the lawyers, I bet he is making Josh pay some of it I wonder if she would still have to give him half in a divorce if he’s in prison for cp though. I mean he will be a convicted sex offender. So does that make her free to go with their collective assets? Maybe I’ll try to ask the YouTube lawyer Emily the next time she livestreams. Lol

I don’t disagree with you at all that Jesus said it was okay to divorce for sexual immorality, but is that how IFB and the Duggars interpret that scripture? I’m not sure I did a quick Google search and found out that for fundies like the Duggars, the sexual immorality loophole only applies if there is unrepentant, repeated sexual immorality. For Anna, Josh repented of the adultery. I also think that we can’t apply common sense or any form of modern, educated thinking to Anna. She’s a thoroughly brainwashed member of a cult. So what seems obvious to us, that Josh is a predator who is a danger to children, wouldn’t cross her mind. She would have to witness him abusing a child to believe that. She doesn’t know that most pedophiles start with the fantasy (cp) before they feel an irresistible urge to make that fantasy a reality. She’s never read a book or been exposed to any conversation about how pedophiles function. So at absolute worst, the Devil tempted Josh to look at those images. But in her mind, certainly Josh would never harm a child! She couldn’t imagine why anyone would believe he’s capable of such a thing. However, she likely doesn’t believe he even intended to view the cp in the first place, so there is definitely no way he’s a danger to children. He’s just addicted to pornography, and as far as Anna knows, this is a common addiction that many Godly men have fallen victim to. She will continue to pray that God will help Josh overcome the Devil and this addiction. ETA: To be super clear, I’m not sympathetic to Anna at all. I’m just fascinated by why people believe what they believe. To me, Anna’s religious beliefs explain why she continues to stand by him.

I don’t think she thinks she is “above” that. I think she believes God made women to raise children. Raising God fearing children is her full-time job, according to the Bible and her religious faith. Remember, Anna believes that literally everything that happens is God’s will. Right now, God is testing her faith, and she must persevere. In her mind, obeying God means submitting to her husband’s authority and forgiving him for whatever sins he commits. Remember too, all sins are equal in their eyes. So there is no difference between cheating and stealing, for example. Sin is sin, and everyone sins because all humans are born corrupt and easily persuaded by the Devil into sin. In her mind, Josh has once again allowed “Satan to build a fortress in [his] heart,” to quote Joshua’s excuse for the cheating scandal. That’s what she genuinely believes. When Josh goes to prison, she will accept that his time in prison is all part of God’s plan, and she will pray for Josh every single day. And when Josh lies and tells her that he has been made clean again by the power of Christ, she will rejoice. Maybe, just maybe, if her father and Jim Bob turn on Josh and command her to divorce Josh and remarry, she might consider it, but even then, she would have to believe that God wants her to abandon her marriage vows, and I don’t think there is much that justifies divorce in their world. Maybe murder? We know it’s not cheating or even spousal abuse, so I’m not sure what a husband has to do that would justify divorce for these folks. I just don’t see Anna ever leaving Josh of her own free will; she is far too reliant on the cult for that to happen. She will only leave Josh if the cult (ie the Duggars and the entire IFB/Gothard/Quiverfull movement) gives her permission to do so.

If you go back and watch Josh and Anna’s wedding episode, Anna specifically says that her mother sat her down two weeks before the wedding to explain to her how “intimacy” works between a husband and a wife. So I absolutely believe Anna had zero understanding of what Josh actually did when he was 14. Plus, you have to remember that the entire family, including the sisters, were telling her how great Josh was and what an amazing Christian, son, and brother he was, etc. She was likely told that Josh touched his sisters “inappropriately” a few times, repented of his sins, and was born a new man. We have witnessed for ourselves exactly how Jim Bob and Michelle downplay what happened, so you can only imagine the version Anna would have gotten from her father. Her father also would have told her that God wanted her to marry Josh. I just don’t think any of us can judge her for marrying Josh back then. Everyone in her life wanted that marriage and told her Josh was the one “whom God would have her.” When “In Touch” broke the story, Anna was likely told that this was the liberal, heathen media trying to destroy them. And once again, she would have been reassured by absolutely everyone around her who matters that Josh had long since repented of that “childhood mistake” as the Duggars liked to call it. And once again, even the victims were telling Anna that Josh was forgiven long ago and that he had more than redeemed himself in their eyes. With the cheating scandal, yes, Anna was clearly heartbroken, and if you go back and watch those first episodes of “Counting On,” you can see Anna struggling to not cry on camera. Again though, she was trained her entire life to believe that with prayer and counseling, they would be reconciled. And once again, everyone who Anna cared about was telling her that God would work to change Josh’s heart and restore him to her. Now we come to the latest. Anna knows that Josh has been arrested on cp charges. He likely confessed that he had become addicted to pornography again, but then lied to her and claimed that he had accidentally downloaded some images of children that he immediately deleted from his computer. Anna is, of course, devastated that he’s again addicted to pornography, but likely in her mind, he didn’t intentionally do the horrible thing he’s accused of doing. The point is that none of us know what Anna has been told or what she has read. But I strongly suspect that she’s been told half truths at best and that once again, she’s falling back on her religious beliefs to hold onto to the hope that Josh can be redeemed and restored to her. After all, in her mind, all those prayers worked in the past, so why wouldn’t they work now. She has six kids with him and is pregnant with her 7th. If she turns from Josh now, she literally has nowhere to go. So even if she has doubts or fears about Josh, she must immediately turn that thought off so that she can continue to live in the bubble of her faith and the Duggars. I mean she grew up with a father who took her to watch him minister to prisoners, so Anna 100% believes that every sinner can be redeemed by God. Unfortunately that means she will stand by him unless she somehow manages to break out of the religious indoctrination she’s been surrounded by since birth.

I also did some speculating that those pictures might be some kind of tool the prosecution could be used to threaten Josh with more charges. Emily says no. Those pictures can only be used to establish that it was Josh who did the crime he’s being charged with. She said it would be unconstitutional for them to go back and file different charges based on the information they had at the time at the time of his arrest.

Emily Baker, attorney and YouTuber that many of us have watched explain Josh’s situation before, explains the government’s response to each of his defense motions. She’s very clear and direct. The part about Josh starts at the 49 minute mark: She quickly dispels the idea that the prosecution may charge Josh with additional counts related to his current charges based on the pictures of his hands, a possibility some had raised in the forums. Most importantly, she believes the court will deny all of the defense’s motions, and as she detailed all of the evidence the prosecution has against Josh, she seemed very confident that he would be convicted if this case went before a jury. She also speculated that Josh may finally take a plea once the judge ruled against him on all the motions.

I’ve been reading the prosecution’s response on and off today, and I just noticed something striking. They arrested Josh for downloading one video file and one zip file that contained 65 images. However, they also flagged 93 other “files of interest” that they got from his IP address. I wonder what happened with those files. Another sign of Josh’s total idiocy is that he uses the same passwords over and over that include either his name or his birth year. There’s just no way this wasn’t Josh downloading and viewing this material.