S17.E28: Samantha Power, Andrew Sullivan, Heather McGhee, Timothy Naftali, and Sarah Haider

[Guest]

Airs September 20, 2019

Guests

Quote

Samantha Power, Andrew Sullivan, Heather McGhee, Timothy Naftali, and Sarah Haider

[Paws]

God what a terrible, uncomfortable panel that was. Three white men condescendingly telling the one black woman what is/isn’t important in all matters involving sexual assault and racism.

MY GOD

He so rarely ever has more than one woman on the show, and today he had three, but they were all separated out so that the panel discussion was as heavy on white guys POV as ever.  

Edited September 21, 2019 by Paws

[Pike Ludwell]

Bill kept repeating about Kavanaugh that something one did at 17 should not be used against them as a Supreme Court nominee. But the allegations were that Kavanaugh did stuff like this repeatedly all the way into Law School. Bill likes to oversimplify so as to be able to make the point that PC is evil. And politically, the problem wasn't bringing forth the allegations. The problem was bringing forth a key witness who couldn't remember where it was, how she got there, or how she left. That is the lesson - have sound corroborating evidence - not that you shouldn't bring such charges forward.

And, how about how he referred as gospel to some pollster who concluded that without the Kavanaugh issues Democrats would have won the Senate. He spouted that as if absolute fact to prove how the PC against Kavanaugh was harmful. BS. That analysis has been disputed.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Pike Ludwell

[DEL901]

What about the woman with the “25% of US muslims leave the faith” billboards and then couldn’t articulate how she came up with that “fact”.   

[sistermagpie]

Andrew Sullivan is like a perfect distillation of the Trump mindset, whether he calls himself a never-Trumper or not. The reasons for Trump, in his view, are that white men have just been so victimized. Why, we've now gotten to the point where these crazy liberals are calling everybody racist or a white supremacist. Even somebody like him who cares so much about the black community that he wishes they'd learn to raise their children in a civilized manner so they'd be successful. Successful like that well-bred, well-raised Kavanaugh boy who behaved in a manner thoroughly befitting a Supreme Court judge when faced with those crazy feminists bitching about how a little sexual assault matters.

1 hour ago, Pike Ludwell said:

The problem was bringing forth a key witness who couldn't remember where it was, how she got there, or how she left. That is the lesson - have sound corroborating evidence - not that you shouldn't bring such charges forward.

That's pretty standard for a sexual assault, though. It bears noting that neither Sullivan nor Bill was even doubting her account. They were saying that it was unacceptable to bring it up one way or another since Kavanaugh was just a lad in short pants then. I doubt Sullivan cares about further allegations that have come out from when he was a bit older or cares that the FBI didn't talk to other people. He preemptively dismissed anything McGee had to say on the subject as her having a kooky agenda to prove there's a patriarchy so he could continue wailing about how it felt to be a white guy.

[arachne]

2 hours ago, DEL901 said:

What about the woman with the “25% of US muslims leave the faith” billboards and then couldn’t articulate how she came up with that “fact”.  

Furthermore, she and Bill seem convinced that all ex-Muslims become atheists. None of them join another religion. How do they know this?

[DoctorAtomic]

Wow Samantha Power was great. 

Right on with McGee slamming Sullivan. She's right though - if a woman went in there and threw a bitch fit they'd bounce her out. 

I tend to think most people would have been fine if Kavanaugh just had apologized and not been such a royal bitch about it. Then you find out this is what seems to be a pattern now. It's fair to be pissed about it and question whether he's fit to be a justice. 

It's also fair to question the vetting process. It's also why I think you should have the filibuster for SCOTUS. 

Sullivan always gets worked up about this to the point where I'm asking what he's so worried about. 

Edited September 21, 2019 by DoctorAtomic

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, DEL901 said:

What about the woman with the “25% of US muslims leave the faith” billboards and then couldn’t articulate how she came up with that “fact”.   

I'm watching now and she said it was a Pew poll. 

I'm all for people walking away from religion. 

[DoctorAtomic]

It must be SO HARD to be Andrew Sullivan. 

And I think he's way off on Brexit. 

Edited September 21, 2019 by DoctorAtomic

[littlecatsfeet]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm watching now and she said it was a Pew poll. 

I'm all for people walking away from religion. 

I believe I found the Pew poll to which she was referring (and even she said it was "based on an estimate") . https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/26/the-share-of-americans-who-leave-islam-is-offset-by-those-who-become-muslim/

What wasn't said was that (according to the poll) there are as many people who convert to Islam in the U.S. as leave it. Furthermore, "issues with religion in general" is cited as the most given reason for leaving the faith; it's not largely a case of of "I decided Islam was evil". 

McGee was fantastic explaining why the "boys will be boys" excuse for Kavanaugh's background was a load of B.S. Unfortunately, it seemed to go right over Sullivan's and Maher's head, but that's no surprise. 

[scrb]

5 hours ago, DEL901 said:

What about the woman with the “25% of US muslims leave the faith” billboards and then couldn’t articulate how she came up with that “fact”.   

She said it was a Pew Research poll.

I don't know if it's so much people making conscious decision to leave the faith or they just stop going to the mosque and grow up and have similar lifestyle as Americans.

That means no hijabs, just normal American clothes, maybe enjoying some adult beverages, getting drawn to American pop culture, etc.

Edited September 21, 2019 by scrb

[movingtargetgal]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Sullivan always gets worked up about this to the point where I'm asking what he's so worried about. 

Sullivan was so angry when he was talking about the sexual assault allegations.  He kept saying that there was no proof.  Sorry to break this to you Andy but sexual assaults and child molestations do not occur in public and there is often no DNA evidence left behind.  Victims tend not to come forward because they are either too traumatized or fear not being believed.  Sullivan's rage makes me wonder if he is afraid of some skeletons in his past being exposed.

[izabella]

When Bill was talking about this whistleblower complaint being enough to impeach Trump, I wish someone - anyone - on the panel had brought up the fact that no one in the House has seen the complaint because it's being covered up, and it's hard to impeach someone on a specific complaint without seeing the actual complaint and underlying evidence.   "I don't know for a fact that....but I just know it's true" is not how impeachment works.

And I really, really wish someone had said that there may be MORE in the whistleblower complaint than the stuff that the media and others think is in the complaint. 

I wish the panel had spent their time being angry that the WH and DOJ are covering up the complaint and the GOP is silent or supportive instead of, once again, using this situation as an opportunity to bash Democrats when they are the only ones even trying to fight for the Constitution and rule of law. 

Instead of screaming at the Dems to impeach, maybe the screaming should be at the WH and DOJ to stop covering up, stop obstructing justice and release the whistleblower complaint and underlying evidence to the Intelligence Committee.

Edited September 21, 2019 by izabella

[izabella]

1 hour ago, movingtargetgal said:

Sullivan was so angry when he was talking about the sexual assault allegations.  He kept saying that there was no proof.  Sorry to break this to you Andy but sexual assaults and child molestations do not occur in public and there is often no DNA evidence left behind.  Victims tend not to come forward because they are either too traumatized or fear not being believed.  Sullivan's rage makes me wonder if he is afraid of some skeletons in his past being exposed.

There was also a marked lack of investigation because the FBI was ordered to limit its background check.  It was not an actual investigation into the allegations or Kavanaugh.

[Sparger Springs]

Lets not forget when discussing Kavanaugh they rushed through this confirmation. GOP refused to  release a lot of the material relating to the time he was in the White House working for Bush.  There is strong evidence he lied when he was confirmed as a Justice for the DC circuit and it took him much longer than the typical jurist to be confirmed. There is no way he should be on any court.

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, movingtargetgal said:

Sullivan was so angry when he was talking about the sexual assault allegations.  He kept saying that there was no proof.  Sorry to break this to you Andy but sexual assaults and child molestations do not occur in public and there is often no DNA evidence left behind.  Victims tend not to come forward because they are either too traumatized or fear not being believed.  Sullivan's rage makes me wonder if he is afraid of some skeletons in his past being exposed.

Whenever the topic is brought up on the show, he always rants like that. Even McGee called him on it.

[Hooper]

Quote

Bill kept repeating about Kavanaugh that something one did at 17 should not be used against them as a Supreme Court nominee. But the allegations were that Kavanaugh did stuff like this repeatedly all the way into Law School.

This argument that one gets a free pass for stuff one did as a teenage drives me bonkers.   The victims of assault and bullying have to live with the consequences of what was done by the bully/assailant.   Why shouldn't the perpetrators have to live with consequences?  It doesn't seem all that unjust to me that  a man who had a pattern of sticking his penis where it wasn't welcome when he was in high school and college might have to suffer the ordeal of not being a supreme court justice.

But, ok.  Lots of teens are assholes, and then grow up and become better people.  I can accept that we all do dumb and hurtful stuff at some point, and that if every dumb hurtful act, especially when one is young, derailed a career, lots of us wouldn't have much of a career.   But, as a good devout Catholic, Kavanaugh knew goddamm fucking well that shoving his penis onto non-consenting women (or according to his Church, even consenting women he wasn't married to) is wrong.  Also, as a good devout Catholic, Kavanaugh knows goddamm fucking well that sincere contrition and penance are essential parts of earning forgiveness for past sins.  He showed neither contrition, nor repentance.   He, and a Republican senate desperate to put a good devout pro-forced-pregnancy Catholic on the court, did everything they could to defiantly suppress a real investigation into the allegations against him.  His whole demeanor screamed that he still regards it as his God given right to down a few beers and shove his penis wherever he wants to.  He's not an asshole who grew up to be a better person.  He's just an asshole.

Quote

Sullivan always gets worked up about this to the point where I'm asking what he's so worried about. 

I'd say the same about Bill.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Hooper

[Pete Martell]

2 hours ago, Hooper said:

This argument that one gets a free pass for stuff one did as a teenage drives me bonkers.   The victims of assault and bullying have to live with the consequences of what was done by the bully/assailant.   Why shouldn't the perpetrators have to live with consequences?  It doesn't seem all that unjust to me that the men who had a pattern of sticking their penis where it wasn't welcome when they were in high school and college might have to suffer the ordeal of not being a supreme court justice. 

What is left unspoken is that only rich white people (especially men) get that opportunity. 

Here's what Ben Shapiro, whom Maher was so very glad and humbled to have on the show, has to say about non-white men in that age range:

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, Hooper said:

He showed neither contrition, nor repentance.

That's it right there. It is amazing what an actual, sincere apology can do. 

4 hours ago, Hooper said:

I'd say the same about Bill.

Bill does his PC rants but it's not nearly at the mania of Sullivan. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I’m about thisclose to deleting this without watching, based solely on the comments I’ve read here. I’ve always liked Naftali-he was the historian on all those CNN: The Sixties, Seventies and Eighties. Was he an asshat after all? And I don’t know if my love for Heather is enough to suffer through Sullivan’s blather. I just LOATHE HIM.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I’m about thisclose to deleting this without watching, based solely on the comments I’ve read here. I’ve always liked Naftali-he was the historian on all those CNN: The Sixties, Seventies and Eighties. Was he an asshat after all? And I don’t know if my love for Heather is enough to suffer through Sullivan’s blather. I just LOATHE HIM.

Iirc, there were times when he looked like he wanted to scream while on the panel but Sullivan just talks over everybody so he kept getting shut up.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

Iirc, there were times when he looked like he wanted to scream while on the panel but Sullivan just talks over everybody so he kept getting shut up.

Scream at Sullivan? I know, I know, I should just watch and find out for myself, but since this show doesn’t have commercials I can zip through, I just want to know if it’s worth sitting through 56 odd minutes or not.

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Scream at Sullivan? I know, I know, I should just watch and find out for myself, but since this show doesn’t have commercials I can zip through, I just want to know if it’s worth sitting through 56 odd minutes or not.

Oh yeah, scream at Sullivan. He's really extra in this ep. Heather basically tries to shut him up and he just goes on and on. The peak moment is when he slides from his rant about how it's so stupid to say there's white supremacists into a defense of Biden's record-player answer by talking about how black kids have terrible test scores because they don't get married and raise children correctly. Heather points out these studies about uninvolved black fathers are wrong, but by that point he's already derailed the conversation to be about the superiority of whites, so...

[DEL901]

22 hours ago, scrb said:

She said it was a Pew Research poll.

I don't know if it's so much people making conscious decision to leave the faith or they just stop going to the mosque and grow up and have similar lifestyle as Americans.

That means no hijabs, just normal American clothes, maybe enjoying some adult beverages, getting drawn to American pop culture, etc.

Wonder if the poll has any numbers for other religions?    Is 25% typical?  High?  Low?

[littlecatsfeet]

6 hours ago, DEL901 said:

Wonder if the poll has any numbers for other religions?    Is 25% typical?  High?  Low?

I posted a link above to the Pew Poll article. Couple of things: 1) It largely refers to numbers regarding the Islam faith in the U.S., however, it is noted that the 25% is "roughly on par with the share of Americans who were raised Christian and no longer identify with Christianity (22%)."  What's interesting to note is that Islam also gains converts roughly on the same par it loses, while Christianity does not. 2) There is a link within the article to the parent study, which covers more ground if you're interested. 

Here is the link again: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/26/the-share-of-americans-who-leave-islam-is-offset-by-those-who-become-muslim/

To the person who asked if the show was worth watching because of the inclusion of Naftali...he was good when he was able to get a word in edgewise. Which wasn't often, thanks to Sullivan and his histrionics. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'd recommend at least watching the interview. 

[FoundTime]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'd recommend at least watching the interview. 

Yes, Samantha Power was great. I seem to remember laughing a couple of times during the monologue too.

[dtulaine]

On 9/21/2019 at 10:35 AM, sistermagpie said:

Andrew Sullivan is like a perfect distillation of the Trump mindset, whether he calls himself a never-Trumper or not. The reasons for Trump, in his view, are that white men have just been so victimized. Why, we've now gotten to the point where these crazy liberals are calling everybody racist or a white supremacist. Even somebody like him who cares so much about the black community that he wishes they'd learn to raise their children in a civilized manner so they'd be successful. Successful like that well-bred, well-raised Kavanaugh boy who behaved in a manner thoroughly befitting a Supreme Court judge when faced with those crazy feminists bitching about how a little sexual assault matters.

That's pretty standard for a sexual assault, though. It bears noting that neither Sullivan nor Bill was even doubting her account. They were saying that it was unacceptable to bring it up one way or another since Kavanaugh was just a lad in short pants then. I doubt Sullivan cares about further allegations that have come out from when he was a bit older or cares that the FBI didn't talk to other people. He preemptively dismissed anything McGee had to say on the subject as her having a kooky agenda to prove there's a patriarchy so he could continue wailing about how it felt to be a white guy.

All Kavanaugh has to say, accordingly: Yes I did it, I was 17. Or I might have done it but was too blotto..... to remember all those times I might have. But he didn't say that.