Martha: Who Knew?

[Chaos Theory]

I know how badly he screwed her over but rewatching the show for the fourth? time I am finding myself shopping Clark and Martha sometimes more then Philip and Elizabeth.  

[crgirl412]

3 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I know how badly he screwed her over but rewatching the show for the fourth? time I am finding myself shopping Clark and Martha sometimes more then Philip and Elizabeth.  

Do you mean shipping?? 

[metalchik]

On 6/2/2016 at 1:53 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Martha was my favorite character too. I'd love to see Alison Wright in a different role. From what I've read, she has two movies coming out.  I'll check them out. Also, Alison has a twin on the realty show Sister Wives.  The 4th wife Robyn Brown sure does resemble her.  Here's a link with some photos of her.  

http://hollywoodlife.com/celeb/robyn-brown/

She's in Sneaky Pete - an Amazon original.  It's a pretty decent show.

[SunnyBeBe]

25 minutes ago, metalchik said:

She's in Sneaky Pete - an Amazon original.  It's a pretty decent show.

Thanks for the tip.  

[dr pepper]

Hmm, i just had a thought. Next time Phillip gets shot or is in danger of imminent exposure or some such, give him a hallucination of Martha sadly shaking her head and saying things could have worked out if they had just run off together.

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, dr pepper said:

Hmm, i just had a thought. Next time Phillip gets shot or is in danger of imminent exposure or some such, give him a hallucination of Martha sadly shaking her head and saying things could have worked out if they had just run off together.

I don't think those kinds of hallucinations work when the guy would still have no interest in running of with her. I think it would be more to the point if Martha appeared to say he deserved to die horribly because of what he did to her.

Edited February 25, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

I just got the season 4 DVDs, almost no extras, just one extended and one deleted scene.  Boo.

However, it's weird for me to watch on DVD, somehow I always seem to catch little things that I missed on the TV show, probably because watching "live" almost always has that suspense, while watching on DVD?  I already know how things will turn out, so my attention is allowed to wander to smaller plot points or information.

So, anyway, I was watching the whole "Martha is in the safe house with the 3 of them before leaving for Moscow" stuff.  This is SUCH a nitpick, but it really bothered me that Elizabeth only brought her one change of clothes.  So, all she has is fairly sensible high heels, and a cloth coat, and one ugly dress, perhaps 1 change of underwear, something to sleep in and pantyhose.  WTH?  Couldn't Elizabeth have picked up some socks, sweaters, boots, pants or at least another skirt, more underwear, and a decent WARM coat for Russia, maybe a hat or two, a few scarves,  some gloves?  I get that sizes could be difficult for things like boots and blouses, but even in the eighties there were slip on pants/skirts, and sweaters are forgiving, just get a larger size.   It's not like Russia has all the things she would need readily available and of the quality of US goods (back then.)  So poor Martha is stuck wearing stuff she's been wearing for days already, and she's off to Russia with nothing?  It's not as if Philip couldn't have checked her sizes from the clothes she's wearing for a decent pair of flats and some high boots.  If it were me, I'd have also included some deodorant, a few cosmetics, brush, shampoo, tampax, aspirin, tums, etc.  She must be smelling pretty rank by now.

ETA this partially comes from my own life.  During the huge "San Francisco world series" earthquake I was in heels and a suit and at ground zero.  I dodged falling cement roof tiles (those Spanish looking kind) just to get into my wrecked condo and grab some flats, socks, jeans and a sweater before heading back out to check on the safety of my employees in a different building.  I pity her those heels and crappy dress.

While I can buy that Elizabeth doesn't realize how bad things were in Russia at that time, but Gabe has been back, and he certainly knows about the shortages.  That whole she'll be honored as a hero crap (thus have access to better stuff) also doesn't really ring true for me.  She was a stupid woman, seduced into treason, she didn't do it for "the cause" or "the glorious USSR."  She did it because she was conned and sexually needy.  A "hero?"  Seriously?

 

 

Anyway, it bugged the crap out of me.  Ha.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

OMG!

I just got so happy, and it was just a glimpse of her so far!   Yes!

[Tetraneutron]

I don't know if I want to see more of her. It would be partly like the Nina plot last season, which was interesting and thematically relevant, but felt like marking time. And what's there to show? See Martha. See Martha hate the USSR after being used to the comfort and options in the US. See her not know the language. See her not have friends or a job or a life. See Martha be sad. 

[Umbelina]

http://www.avclub.com/article/heres-scoop-redacteds-return-americans-252482

Quote

“The Midges” only briefly touches base with the former FBI secretary who turned accidental traitor when she falls for Philip Jennings (Matthew Rhys) in disguise. After Oleg (Costa Ronin) leaves a supermarket he’s investigating, the camera lingers on a female shopper from behind. When she turns around we see it’s Martha, examining the labels of items on the depleted shelves. So how did Wright prepare to revisit Martha in such drastically different circumstances? “I asked [showrunners] Joe Weisberg and Joel Fields how they wanted her to appear,” Wright explained. “What is she doing mentally? Is she getting on with it? Is she devastated? They had an idea what they wanted her mental state of mind to be, but the rest they leave up to me, which is a tremendous blessing.”

[MisterBluxom]

On 2014-03-10 at 0:27 AM, Carrie Ann said:

I can't stand Martha. It feels mean to dislike someone so pathetic, but man, she bugs me. There is no good end to her story, but it would be nice if she took a little more control in the meantime.

I think she would have been very much happier had they moved her to Cuba than USSR. I'm fairly sure it would have been much easier for her to learn Spanish than Russian and she wouldn't have had to spend a lot of money on trying to keep warm in Moscow. That must eat up a large part of whatever money she gets.

Hard to forgive the USSR for the way they have treated Martha My Dear.

On 2017-02-25 at 11:01 AM, sistermagpie said:

I don't think those kinds of hallucinations work when the guy would still have no interest in running of with her. I think it would be more to the point if Martha appeared to say he deserved to die horribly because of what he did to her.

I'm almost certain that any man who had a choice between Keri Russel or Alison Wright would stay with Keri.  She is just so much more pleasant to be around.

[RedHawk]

On March 14, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Umbelina said:

That whole she'll be honored as a hero crap (thus have access to better stuff) also doesn't really ring true for me.  She was a stupid woman, seduced into treason, she didn't do it for "the cause" or "the glorious USSR."  She did it because she was conned and sexually needy.  A "hero?"  Seriously?

I never believed she would be "honored as a hero" but she did have the chance to turn on Philip and she didn't, she cooperated with his plans for her, so for that they will spare her life and give her a slightly better than typical existence in Russia. 
 

[Umbelina]

Quote

 

The person I was watching with gasped with glee when they saw you. We don’t get a lot of occasions for happy surprises on The Americans. What do you think it is about Martha that makes her connect so well with audiences?

She’s what all of us would most likely be in this scenario. We’d like to think that we’d be the Jennings—that we’d be bad-asses. But the likelihood is that we'd be the Martha. I think perhaps people can recognize that. Let’s forget that the attractive, dashing Jenningses are K.G.B. agents, they have this truly exciting kind of life, and they’re cool. But despite the appeal of their story line, it’s really apparent to see what they did to her and what this machine does to the average person. It chewed her up and spit her out. Yet she’s still fully invested and willingly gave her heart, and I think that is very tragic and sad.

 

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/03/the-americans-martha-alive-cameo-season-5-episode-3-the-midges-alison-wright-interview

Interview with Martha, posted it in the media thread, but decided to put it here as well.

[Razzberry]

What a teaser!  At least we know she's alive, but I'd love to see more of her.

[TimWil]

Allison Wright gave a very sweet interview on NPR's Weekend Edition yesterday. The Americans was mentioned, of course, along with the Broadway play she's currently in. She also revealed that she was adopted and that Carol Burnett's performance as Miss Hannigan in the film version of Annie is what inspired her to be an actress!

[Umbelina]

Just saw our favorite traitor in FEUD:  Bette and Joan.  On FX!

[sistermagpie]

35 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Just saw our favorite traitor in FEUD:  Bette and Joan.  On FX!

I love how Alison Wright is like the Peggy Olson of Feud!

[Roseanna]

On ‎15‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 0:24 AM, Umbelina said:

but it really bothered me that Elizabeth only brought her one change of clothes.  So, all she has is fairly sensible high heels, and a cloth coat, and one ugly dress, perhaps 1 change of underwear, something to sleep in and pantyhose.  WTH?  Couldn't Elizabeth have picked up some socks, sweaters, boots, pants or at least another skirt, more underwear, and a decent WARM coat for Russia, maybe a hat or two, a few scarves,  some gloves?  I get that sizes could be difficult for things like boots and blouses, but even in the eighties there were slip on pants/skirts, and sweaters are forgiving, just get a larger size.   It's not like Russia has all the things she would need readily available and of the quality of US goods (back then.)  So poor Martha is stuck wearing stuff she's been wearing for days already, and she's off to Russia with nothing?  It's not as if Philip couldn't have checked her sizes from the clothes she's wearing for a decent pair of flats and some high boots.  If it were me, I'd have also included some deodorant, a few cosmetics, brush, shampoo, tampax, aspirin, tums, etc.  She must be smelling pretty rank by now.

Martha's life is in mortal danger and P & E should concentrate on buying her clothes as if they hadn't far more important things to do? I guess safe houses has basic cosmetics etc.  

She isn't so bad IMO, she could keep clothes she was wearing whereas Elizabeth asked Jared to leave all his clother and dress new ones (which was a good idea as there was a tracker in his backpack).

Members of nomenklatura had special shops where they could buy almost anything. On the other, if Martha wants to cope in the Soviet Union, she has perhaps better dress like other Soviet people.    

Edited August 5, 2017 by Roseanna

[Roseanna]

I have no special interest to see "Martha in Moscow", but unlike others, I don't think that she wouldn't have at least some chance to succeed, at least relatively speaking. 

I mean, millions of DPs and refugees had much worse after the WW2, after experiencing much worse and having to build a new life in the foreign country without any material resources, many without any family memberrs or even friends.  One such man, the Estonian Ilmar Talve made a conclusion that helped him to make a successful career: "Whatever the situation, regardless of whether you got to it at your own will or against your will, there is no need to remember or miss what was before and what is not now when you can't change the situation."

I doubt it takes time for Martha to accept this lesson. Yet, just like Don, it's ultimately up to her to make the best of her situation.

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I doubt it takes time for Martha to accept this lesson. Yet, just like Don, it's ultimately up to her to make the best of her situation.

It's funny how situations on the show get judged. It's like with Paige--often she's seen as the biggest innocent victim even though there's many many characters on the show who lived with objectively worse situations even at the same age. I think it's similar with Martha. It's not that her situation is necessarily as bad as some others on the show, but maybe because her life before this was relatively better it gets judged as worse or it seems worse.

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's funny how situations on the show get judged. It's like with Paige--often she's seen as the biggest innocent victim even though there's many many characters on the show who lived with objectively worse situations even at the same age. I think it's similar with Martha. It's not that her situation is necessarily as bad as some others on the show, but maybe because her life before this was relatively better it gets judged as worse or it seems worse.

I think that most people can either identify with or at least more understand ordinary people's situation and ordinary relationnships. Like Young Hee: what if my best friend slept with my husband?

Plus, most people seems to think that it's wrong when "they" do something bad to "us" but it's ok if "we" do something bad to "them": it was wrong that Phillip seduced Martha but in Homeland it was ok that Carrie seduced a Pakistani boy in order to get his uncle. Yet, the latter deed was far uglier: he  was inexperienced, considered sex outside marriage a sin, never knew what it was about nor made choices of his own, unlike Martha.     

[Umbelina]

Carrie took a lot of shit from that move from her spy friends though, and gave herself quite a bit as well.  It's wasn't "OK fine!" with any of them.

As someone who loved all of their scenes together?  I was just glad the kid got laid and fell in love before his uncle murdered him.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I was just glad the kid got laid and fell in love before his uncle murdered him.

If we leave out that as a Muslim he committed a sin by having sex outside marriage, he would be alive without it. His uncle murdered him just because he betrayed him to Carrie - who also betrayed him as he didn't mean to keep her promise to help him to London to study medicine. 

[Umbelina]

He didn't betray his uncle, and we are WAY off topic.  His uncle betrayed him by killing his entire family to stage his own death.   ;)

Edited August 7, 2017 by Umbelina

[BW Manilowe]

From ETOnline (the website for the Entertainment Tonight TV show):

Alison Wright on a 'Lucky Year' and Martha's 'Happy Ending' on 'The Americans'

[Roseanna]

On ‎8‎.‎8‎.‎2017 at 0:59 AM, Umbelina said:

He didn't betray his uncle, and we are WAY off topic.  His uncle betrayed him by killing his entire family to stage his own death.   ;)

His family was killed by the American drones ordered by Carrie.

[Chaos Theory]

For me it had nothing to do with innocence or guilt.  I could always identify with Martha because I could identify with her abject loneliness.  The show wrote a brilliant character because she was possibly the most guilty and yet also the most most innocent.  That last scene of her leaving her apartment with the talk show with the women who were all able to find happiness without men in their lives (or something to that nature) while Martha had betrayed her entire world to keep one in hers was incredibly well done.  Yes of course she had other options.  She always did.  That was never the point.  She was always going to love a man who never really love her.

That is the tragedy of Martha.

That is what makes her so relatable.  If you understand that kind of love and loneliness.

[Umbelina]

On 8/31/2017 at 9:47 PM, Roseanna said:

His family was killed by the American drones ordered by Carrie.

Yes, because he leaked and faked the information to them that HE would be there at the very last minute, and they had no time to verify it, and certainly didn't know that many of his relatives would be there.  He was a dangerous, if not the most dangerous terrorist on their kill or capture list.

The entire mission was conceived by his Uncle, who later murdered him in cold blood.  He certainly didn't know anything, about this terrorist's set up to eventually use this murder of his family to stage a coup of his government, and to murder even more people at the Embassy and countless more of their assets, which is why he wanted "the list."

Back on topic.

I believed Martha's story mostly because I know it happened in real life, and later, because Alison's incredible acting won me over.  Martha was lonely for the kind of true love romance and commitment she dreamed of.  She wasn't going to settle for the men she'd dated so far, she wanted it all.  I know women like that.  A fairly recent friend is very much like that, although she is considered a total babe, and a very good person on top of that.

Anyway, enter a man trained to fulfill every single dream Martha had for her life, and her future.  He's trained to listen, he's trained to seduce and I don't mean sexually.  He's extremely well trained in sex as well.  He has a fake cover of someone to admire, who hit the buttons in Alison's professional life, since no one every listened to her before about her FBI security concerns.  He's good looking and sensitive and tells her how amazing and wonderful she is.

She never stood a chance.  She didn't drown by jumping into deep water and forgetting how to swim.  She drowned as drop by drop the water filled up until she was to paralyzed to swim.  Sure there were a few waves and danger signals down the line, but she, being so in love with being in love, justified them away.  He doesn't want kids?  Oh well, we can adopt soon!  She doesn't want to continue to use the bug in the office because she likes her coworkers?  Clark "reluctantly" gives her a (doctored) tape of them insulting her as woman.  Knight in Shining Armor role recaptured by Clark.  Over and over again he countered any doubts or balking with pretending even more love for her, or his dedication to his job.

Even when almost totally drowned, after Clark picked her up and told her she must leave her life?  She swam as hard as she could and tried to escape Gabe, confused, desperate, horrified at her errors and mistakes.  Philip, once she was recaptured, decided to (mostly) stop lying to her, and she was able to walk away into her unknown, but certainly lonely, future, away from everyone she loved and everything she knew.

Every warning sign she did see that the drops of water were threatening to turn into very deep water indeed?  Clark, the professional?  Kept her in place.

I understood her decision at the end, or rather, lack of decision, wandering around deciding between Clark or her country, the KGB, or the FBI.  She was a wreck by then, so I bought it.  She'd seen Clark's real face, and met his "sister."  Was she thinking, the FBI won't protect me from the KGB, they will just throw me in jail, until the KGB kills me to protect Clark?  Did it enter her mind that she could cut a deal, but that would definitely mean cooperating to capture Clark, and it might not be that great of a deal anyway? 

The writing and the acting made me buy that.  I wouldn't trust the FBI at all, but frankly, I'd trust the KGB even less.  Frankly, I was a little shocked the KGB didn't just kill her in transit, as Claudia had that young mother killed after promising her safety.  That was, and is, a lot of effort for a stupid, love-blind secretary  who is no longer of any value to them. 

That's why I am so glad we was the Martha scenes in Russia, until we did?  I didn't completely believe she was still alive.  I felt it was 50/50 but they would tell Philip she was, to pacify him.  The Residentura scenes helped with that too of course.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I believed Martha's story mostly because I know it happened in real life, and later, because Alison's incredible acting won me over.  Martha was lonely for the kind of true love romance and commitment she dreamed of.  She wasn't going to settle for the men she'd dated so far, she wanted it all.  I know women like that.  A fairly recent friend is very much like that, although she is considered a total babe, and a very good person on top of that.

I believed it too. To continue with the drip drip theory, any time she wasn't able to take the next step, the operation would have stopped, so it's not like the show is saying that anybody would have just given it up for Clark. Philip and Elizabeth aren't just supposed to be irresistible physically. Adding to everything else mentioned, Clark was also good at setting things up so it felt to Martha like she was in control. Remember she was the one who even brought up files for him to look at without him asking. Part of Clark's persona was that he was the one who liked to stick to the rules (except where he was so in love with Martha he broke them *for her* and that was reflected in their sex life). Martha thought she was the more adventurous one.

In the end the fantasy was just flipped on herself--she, it turned out, was the more naive and goody-shoes one who broke the rules because she was so in love with him, and she liked that fantasy even in that form. I can see how hard it would be to give up that pov on the world where she was at the center of a grand romance. (It's not like Philip, Elizabeth and Stan don't have their own povs about their lives that they couldn't break.)

Personally, I also have no trouble believing that Martha was kept alive and well in the USSR either.

Edited September 18, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

My problem with that @sistermagpie, is only that they promised that other young wife they would get her to safety too.  Remember?  I couldn't stop thinking of that in Martha's scenes, her trusting them and that final bullet to the brain just when she thought she was safe.,

If it hadn't already happened on the show, maybe I would have been less wary?

[BW Manilowe]

37 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

My problem with that @sistermagpie, is only that they promised that other young wife they would get her to safety too.  Remember?  I couldn't stop thinking of that in Martha's scenes, her trusting them and that final bullet to the brain just when she thought she was safe.,

If it hadn't already happened on the show, maybe I would have been less wary?

To me, the difference in the exfiltration of Martha & the exfiltration of the mother & baby to Cuba, as to why they turned out so differently, is Martha's was handled by Gabriel & the other by Claudia. Different ways of handling the same matter by different handlers.

[Umbelina]

53 minutes ago, BW Manilowe said:

To me, the difference in the exfiltration of Martha & the exfiltration of the mother & baby to Cuba, as to why they turned out so differently, is Martha's was handled by Gabriel & the other by Claudia. Different ways of handling the same matter by different handlers.

Yeah, many here trusted Gabriel, and from the writing this season, that seems justified.

I never really did, but still?  I'm glad he was trustworthy.  Aside from that though?  We know now that the country was really a shambles by then, because we know the whole system is about to be overturned.  So, for me anyway, even if I did trust Gabe?  I didn't trust his handlers, or "Center" to not lie to him.

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

, is only that they promised that other young wife they would get her to safety too.  Remember?  I couldn't stop thinking of that in Martha's scenes, her trusting them and that final bullet to the brain just when she thought she was safe.,

Oh yeah, it was impossible to not remember her when the Martha thing was going on and wonder about it. But for me, the fact that we saw the Russians at the Rezidentura involved was enough to know it was real, and I had no problem believing that it was something they'd do--just not for everyone. In hindsight it's fitting that they offered to send her to Cuba, which would be more appealing for her, but more dangerous for them. Because they weren't going to send her anywhere.

[Loandbehold]

The discussion b/w Umbellina and sistermagpie is quite interesting. I also wasn't sure if the KGB would allow Martha to live, given what happened with the other woman. However, besides Claudia handling one and Gabriel the other, there is also the fact that Martha was a key part of an operation while the other agent broke the rules in becoming involved with the woman. On top of that, Philip was really pushing for Martha to be exfiltrated.  If he somehow found out that Martha had been killed, who knows how he would have reacted, but I have a feeling a few agents and handlers would have been killed.

[crgirl412]

39 minutes ago, Loandbehold said:

The discussion b/w Umbellina and sistermagpie is quite interesting. I also wasn't sure if the KGB would allow Martha to live, given what happened with the other woman. However, besides Claudia handling one and Gabriel the other, there is also the fact that Martha was a key part of an operation while the other agent broke the rules in becoming involved with the woman. On top of that, Philip was really pushing for Martha to be exfiltrated.  If he somehow found out that Martha had been killed, who knows how he would have reacted, but I have a feeling a few agents and handlers would have been killed.

I agree.  I think Philip would've lost his shit completely with people dying and would've pushed him to want to get out of that lifestyle even more quickly which could've been an interesting story line but I am so glad they didn't do it!!    

I think we were all very scared that they would kill Martha like the other woman but I don't think that we are shocked that she is "alive and well."

[Umbelina]

Another check mark against Philip in the eyes of the KGB.

 

He would never find out if they killed her, probably Gabe wouldn't either.

[Roseanna]

On ‎19‎.‎9‎.‎2017 at 7:39 PM, Loandbehold said:

I also wasn't sure if the KGB would allow Martha to live, given what happened with the other woman. 

But we don't actually know what exactly happened to her, only that she died of overdose of drugs. We don't know whether the KGB aim to kill her already from the beginning or did they kill her because she caused troublle of some kind (f.ex. they noticed that she used drugs and they didn't want such people)?

In any case, Martha was different because she had helped the KGB. If they killed all, why would anyvbody help them in the future?     

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

But we don't actually know what exactly happened to her, only that she died of overdose of drugs. We don't know whether the KGB aim to kill her already from the beginning or did they kill her because she caused troublle of some kind (f.ex. they noticed that she used drugs and they didn't want such people)?

I think it was totally made clear that they murdered her and made it look like a drug OD. The woman was never shown to be using drugs at all. The only thing that was really told about her over and over was that she knew more than anybody wanted her to know. Plus she was offered a deal that was almost too sweet by going to Cuba where she spoke the language and from where people are able to get back to the US. Then to wrap it up we see them seeing the baby as a Russian they want back in Russia. I think it's safe to say the plan was to lie to her and kill her and take the baby all along.

Martha, though, I agree, was a totally different case.

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 4:20 PM, BW Manilowe said:

To me, the difference in the exfiltration of Martha & the exfiltration of the mother & baby to Cuba, as to why they turned out so differently, is Martha's was handled by Gabriel & the other by Claudia. Different ways of handling the same matter by different handlers.

The woman in Season 1 didn't have a history with the KGB -- they only learned of her after their agent (her husband or at least the father of her baby) had died.  That and the fact that he was dead (unlike Philip) makes the two situations vastly different in my eyes.

[crgirl412]

I bought a Kindle and Amazon Prime so I'm re-watching all 4 seasons again now.   

I wish that they would've offered Gregory Cuba rather than Moscow.  He may have gone there.  I realize that Moscow is Utopia to them so they were giving him the "best" for his service to them. 

[sistermagpie]

I don't think it's the best for them just in terms of what they're offering him They feel more secure with him there and he can work for them.

[crgirl412]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think it's the best for them just in terms of what they're offering him They feel more secure with him there and he can work for them.

True.  He could still work very, very hard for the cause.  Rather than Elizabeth talking about Moscow being more cosmopolitan and cultured than DC she should have appealed to his beliefs and work ethic.    

[sistermagpie]

I sometimes wonder if Elizabeth had any conflicted feelings about that with Martha. On one hand, she probably saw Gregory as unafraid to die so he was the brave one, while Martha was afraid to die so she allowed herself to be bundled off to wherever Philip sent her.

But otoh, Martha was willing to to move to Moscow and Gregory wouldn't, even though there was a chance both of them would have seen their Jennings true love again. Or conversely, Philip kept Martha alive and she let Gregory die.

I know her most obvious response is the first one, but I wonder if there was any doubts. There's a reason Elizabeth was the one making the connection to Gregory when Martha was sent away.

[crgirl412]

On 11/14/2017 at 9:19 PM, sistermagpie said:

I sometimes wonder if Elizabeth had any conflicted feelings about that with Martha. On one hand, she probably saw Gregory as unafraid to die so he was the brave one, while Martha was afraid to die so she allowed herself to be bundled off to wherever Philip sent her.

But otoh, Martha was willing to to move to Moscow and Gregory wouldn't, even though there was a chance both of them would have seen their Jennings true love again. Or conversely, Philip kept Martha alive and she let Gregory die.

I know her most obvious response is the first one, but I wonder if there was any doubts. There's a reason Elizabeth was the one making the connection to Gregory when Martha was sent away.

Even though they were both to be sent away at the hand of their lover, I don't view them as equals in terms of their service to the cause so the end game weren't similar.   Gregory was a real believer from the start with eyes wide open who worked hard and chose his destiny at the end.  Martha was a pawn who didn't have the truth until it was too late and even in Moscow her life is being ran by the Soviets.  

[SusanSunflower]

My impression was that Gregory didn't want to abandon "his people" and "his cause" which was not the USSR, but his fellow African Americans.... and he chose the opportunity to die a soldier's death "in battle"  (which is why his death-by-cop can be painted as "romantic" or "noble") 

[crgirl412]

2 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

My impression was that Gregory didn't want to abandon "his people" and "his cause" which was not the USSR, but his fellow African Americans.... and he chose the opportunity to die a soldier's death "in battle"  (which is why his death-by-cop can be painted as "romantic" or "noble") 

I can see where that would be very possible. Didn't they meet at a SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center) march?  

I just don't recall Gregory talking about his beliefs in terms of African Americans and his Socialist/Communist work bringing equality, economic justice, etc. to them.  He and Elizabeth seemed to be talking about the Soviet version of the Cause.  

[sistermagpie]

57 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

Even though they were both to be sent away at the hand of their lover, I don't view them as equals in terms of their service to the cause so the end game weren't similar.   Gregory was a real believer from the start with eyes wide open who worked hard and chose his destiny at the end.  Martha was a pawn who didn't have the truth until it was too late and even in Moscow her life is being ran by the Soviets.  

Absolutely--there's lots of differences. I just can't help but wonder if Elizabeth is totally able to only look at it the way she thinks she should (that Gregory was a soldier who chose a noble death for the cause with the approval of his real lover and comrade Elizabeth while Martha was a frightened dupe who did what she was told by her handler) or if other doubts creep in when she's got Philip in front of her looking at the (already different) situation completely differently.  Gregory was out of the game regarding people in the US either way--in Moscow he'd be training other Elizabeths.

I don't know whether I'd say that Martha is totally being controlled by the Soviets anymore than Gregory was, really. They all ultimately wind up that way. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by sistermagpie

[kokapetl]

On 13/11/2017 at 5:07 AM, sistermagpie said:

I think it was totally made clear that they murdered her and made it look like a drug OD. The woman was never shown to be using drugs at all. The only thing that was really told about her over and over was that she knew more than anybody wanted her to know. Plus she was offered a deal that was almost too sweet by going to Cuba where she spoke the language and from where people are able to get back to the US. Then to wrap it up we see them seeing the baby as a Russian they want back in Russia. I think it's safe to say the plan was to lie to her and kill her and take the baby all along.

Martha, though, I agree, was a totally different case.

I thought she was a junkie of some sort, she lived in Gregory’s ghetto. 

[sistermagpie]

17 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

I thought she was a junkie of some sort, she lived in Gregory’s ghetto. 

Living in a poor or non-white area doesn't mean she's a junkie--Gregory probably has plenty of neighbors who aren't junkies. But even besides that, we're never told she lives near Gregory besides that they're both in Philadelphia. We never see her at home, just waiting on the bench where Robert told her to wait after placing an ad for help if he didn't come home. So she was living with her husband and their baby, and her husband had plenty of money so probably they were in a nice neighborhood. There's no mention of her ever having a drug problem, even from the FBI who's looking into her closely. She actually asks Philip and Elizabeth if Robert was dealing drugs because she thinks that's an obvious explanation for why he'd have been killed and had these shady connections. A junkie would not be living with a guy without knowing for sure he was a drug dealer or not.

Edited November 18, 2017 by sistermagpie

[kokapetl]

Robert’s wife thought Robert was a drug dealer, so I assumed.