Hey Bruce Miller: Speculation and Ideas for THT

[Umbelina]

No "major" spoilers, but things in mainstream media (interviews for example) are OK in this thread.

Season 4 is being written as we type.  Maybe we could give Bruce some thoughts about how to make this show great again?  So, please add your ideas for fixing issues, and for future plot and story ideas.  What do you want to see?

I'll start with one that I feel is very important.

Hire and Empower a decent continuity person!  

The dropped plot lines and endless ignoring of previously established issues is ridiculous!

As an example, in one scene this season there are no meds for Eleanor.  An episode later, she's killing herself with pills.  Huh?

A simple line or two from Lawrence clarifying why suddenly there are no guardians around would have really helped in the finale too.  "I called an executive meeting, which should get rid of some security" was not enough.  However, if you'd simply added, "with Winslow and Waterford disappearing, that should bring most guardians in the city to the meeting." it would have really helped.

I'm going to add one more.

USE YOUR CAST!

In recent interview you stated that this is June's story, you wanted to honor the book that way, and that you weren't sure how much time you would spend with the people in Canada.  This story left June's POV in the first season, a decision YOU made.  June couldn't have "seen" or known about the Serena and Fred flashbacks for example, or their other private meetings.  You can't, and most importantly, you shouldn't try to have your cake and eat it too.

You left us with Emily struggling to recover, then?  Nothing.

You've had Luke and Moira sitting on their asses in Canada for two seasons now, even though they have access to computers, and could be publishing blogs, you tubes, and interviews about the horrors of Gilead.  They are doing nothing to help the people they left behind, no press, just attending an occasional local protest.  

This is unbelievable in the extreme, especially since you made such a big deal about the letters getting out, when there are living breathing escapees available to tell the world their stories.

You have a great cast in Canada and we want to SEE them.

[Umbelina]

For season 4?  I really want to see the resistance in action, and that means the wars being waged around the continental former US.

I'm tired of June being put in a position where logically she should die, but she simply does not.  Why not send her and a few others to the front, since you obviously want to  keep her in Gilead.  It would be far more believable than her being allowed to live in Gilead proper.

I want to know how Gilead works.  Stop stalling.  Show us, and more importantly, show us how the world really feels about Gilead.  The best way to START to do this would be to have international reporters interview Moira about Jezebels and the hypocrisy of this regime.

This time June should not get away with a slap on the wrist, it's time for her to move beyond Gilead proper, and putting her with the rebels is a great way to do that.  You've stretched credibility and "plot armor" too far, too many times.  Change things up!  

I swear if you make her pregnant again (with Lawrence's baby) I'll scream.

[HeySandyStrange]

Some things I'd love to see for season 4:

1. Let's see some of Alaska and Hawaii, what the US government is up to, who's in charge, what they are doing about Gilead behind the scenes, and how normal Americans are living. If the showrunners are too worried about shifting precious time away from June, how about having Moira, Emily, and Luke end up in Alaska, which is similar enough to Canada they wouldn't really have to change sets. Then we could get insight into American operations and have time with the part of the cast that has largely been ignored this season. Maybe they all can join the Americans/rebels in actually doing something to bring down Gilead, like putting out the truth about Gilead. 

2. More Marthas! I want an episode or at least a few flashbacks dedicated to them and the role they play in the resistance. 

3. More resistance in general. Show us Chicago and the who, why and how of their resistance. Show us something about the Gilead military, and the American military such as it exists.

4. Give us some insight to what's happening in the rest of the world and their thoughts and actions towards Gilead. Has the world been destabilized? Is the world more stable? Has their been a rise of another superpower to take America's place? 

5. I liked the idea of some have had about seeing some tidbits about Gilead. Someone suggested showing us how the various dresses for the different classes of women are being made. Or more about the lives of the Econofamilies.

Basically I just want less of June and much more of everything else.

[alexvillage]

For me to go back to watching the show one of these two things would have to happen:

1. June is out, dead or in the background

2. Common sense from the writers

If I absolutely had to pick one to bet on, I would bet on 1 because the writers are hopeless.

[Ariam]

1 hour ago, alexvillage said:

For me to go back to watching the show one of these two things would have to happen:

1. June is out, dead or in the background

2. Common sense from the writers

If I absolutely had to pick one to bet on, I would bet on 1 because the writers are hopeless.

I agree. With these writers, or whoever it is that decides on the direction (director?) of the show, I have no hope and don't think I will ever watch this again. For me the handmaids' tale has been ruined, which is a shame as the story was amazing and I loved season 1 and to some extent season 2 (although parts of it where horrible, wolves and all). Season 3 mad eme lose hope, so much would need to be redeemed. 

But if I imagine that it didn't all happen, and that we could forgive a horrible season, then:

1. stop making June an asshole. She is an antihero, but not a smart one, she is most like a teenage bully from a cheap teenage highschool drama. I bet none of the people who tuned in to the program for its feminist idea really appreciate the stupid way June has been developed. Teach her to speak English that doesn't sounds like a 12 year old talking back at her mother. She was an editor after all. Also, get rid of the angry eyes, they are universally hated. 

2. also stop making june a marvel comics superhero, it's ridiculous. Gilead used to be scary and terrifying, now you can do anything without getting caught (unless you're black or an unknown martha or any other stranger). 

3. use the other actors, I'm much more interested in Emily, Moira and Alma than any of the stupid stuff that makes no sense and has no continuity with the story that season 3 was full of.

4. Serena has to actually get punished for her crimes. Fred of course too.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Ariam

[Umbelina]

We already know he's not killing off June, although he may kill her at the end of the series, which could work, but to me would be really sad, from the time I first read the book I always hoped she got out for real, and stayed hidden for a reason...perhaps to protect Hannah or others still stuck in Gilead.

I do think that for Miller to save this show he NEEDS to stop using the excuse that it's "June's story" and she will be his focus.  It's simply a lie, and I hate when showrunners lie to me.  

He chose to leave "June's story/book" behind the first time he decided to show us flashbacks of Serena, of Fred, of Emily, and that was season one.  He could have made this show like the book, a first person only view of Gilead, it was his choice, but he didn't.  

He can't now use that as an excuse to ignore the cast members in Canada, or have them basically sit and spin and drink beer and mope.  Hey Bruce Miller, stop LYING!  I think the truth is, he's just not very talented, not a big picture person, and he's flat out afraid to tackle the issues of the world, of how Gilead is designed, or to have his characters in Canada actually do logical things, like interact with the world at large.  That takes a scope and vision that is apparently beyond him.

So HIRE people Bruce!  Get people to work for you that do have vision, that can world build, that can do more than simply tell bits of personal stories, and can follow through.  If you didn't want to have to world build, then don't send most of your cast out into the world!  WTF?

I fear he just wants "good episodes" with daring escapes, or near escapes, with lots of danger that almost never pays off (Luke lives in spite of his gunshot and having not clue where he is!  Moira escapes TWICE and lives!  Emily lives even though she's in the colonies cleaning up nuclear waste!  She falls ass backwards into escaping Gilead after stabbing an Aunt too!  June later falls ass backwards, with no explanation into Lawrence's magical house too!  The kids all make it out, in spite of a plan that isn't fleshed out well by you!)

Come on dude!  Admit you are in over your head and hire some good people, writers, continuity, and honestly a better showrunner to pull all of this together.  You have an amazing cast, you have the bones of an amazing book.  What you don't have is a clear vision of the overall story you are telling, instead you get "episode ideas" which often simply don't add up, and apparently no overall vision of where you want to go with this story.

A good "CEO" which basically Miller is in this situation, knows how to hire the right people for the job.  It's past time to bring someone with vision on board, and to address goals for the entire story here, where are you eventually going to end up, and how can you get there in an entertaining way?  I don't think Bruce Miller knows HOW to do that, and this endless treatment of The Handmaid's Tale only as an episodic TV show is way past it's sell date.

I appreciate that at least June's journey into antihero has had more continuity than other stories, and I appreciate those efforts.  June's story alone though, is just not enough, because

• Miller CHOSE to leave first person behind long ago, you don't get to have it both ways.
• He introduced Canada and the USA, now do something with them!
• He wrote the ridiculous baby story, and brought in the Swiss, so if you want "the world" then show us that world, what are they thinking?
• He sent Nick off to the wars, SHOW us those resisters, show us how they are living/fighting.  

The best way I can think of to keep June in Gilead proper, which apparently he's intent on doing, and especially with the current PERIL! he wrote for her, is to smuggle her out to the resistance.  She doesn't want to leave without Hannah, so have her join the actually fighters trying to defeat Gilead.  It would make far more sense than her staying alive, still in Handmaid garb and role, with a gunshot wound no less.  

Bruce Miller also said in one of his numerous post show interviews that he loved to write June into a corner in season finales, and figure out later how to get her out of it when the new season begins.  It's old Bruce, we've been there, done that, too many times to mention.  Your ways of doing that are not believable, or compelling.

He has a way out this time though, that could almost be slightly believable.  Nick.  Nick's fighting the wars.  Nick's a commander now.  Let Nick smuggle her out to the front, the one he's fighting is in Chicago.  Let Nick get her there, and she can join the rebels there.

Still, that leaves all of those Martha's and Handmaids guilty as sin with dozens of kids missing in Gilead.  I can buy they won't kill all the handmaids, but what will protect the Marthas?  I think the idea here is from the book,

Spoiler

"phase two"

of Gilead where things get

Spoiler

much worse

for Handmaids.  That would make complete sense really, and does at least show some forward movement in the story.  Do I really want to watch that though?  For Janine and Alma and the others?  For June?  

Dang, it keeps coming back to "what I want to see in season 4 and beyond" is a new showrunner, for Bruce Miller to hire someone who knows how to write more than Peril and Plot Armor, and can tell the whole story.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Umbelina

[HeySandyStrange]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

So HIRE people Bruce!  Get people to work for you that do have vision, that can world build, that can do more than simply tell bits of personal stories, and can follow through.  If you didn't want to have to world build, then don't send most of your cast out into the world!  WTF?

I agree, but I wonder how much of this is not happening in the first place is due to funding. Which leads me to another thing I want for this show: more funding! Hulu being cheapskates is not doing their one prestige show any good. I'm not asking for Game of Thrones level spectacle, but give some more world building, which would mean more sets and actors, would go a long way imo.

[Umbelina]

47 minutes ago, HeySandyStrange said:

I agree, but I wonder how much of this is not happening in the first place is due to funding. Which leads me to another thing I want for this show: more funding! Hulu being cheapskates is not doing their one prestige show any good. I'm not asking for Game of Thrones level spectacle, but give some more world building, which would mean more sets and actors, would go a long way imo.

They don't even need that to accomplish things though.

Right now Spy Guy is the only one on screen representing the USA.  Don't make him an idiot.  Have him use the famous Serena Joy to bring down Gilead.

Canada can most certainly stand in for Alaska.  Easily.  No travel involved.

Showing Moira doing internet interviews or Luke holding the camera while she makes videos and posts them to the new youtube GILEAD SUCKS account?  Doesn't cost a dime.  Have international reporters interview her!  Have them interview Emily about the colonies too!  Have them interview Luke about wanting Holly back!  All of that can take place on sets they already have.

As far as the "war" scenes?  They also don't have to be big or elaborate.  We don't need to see battles, just the people hiding in caves or abandoned buildings talking about or preparing for them, homemade bombs destroying a Guardian truck, easy and inexpensive crap.  This, from all accounts is a Gorilla type war, so no need for tanks and all the rest (although one might be nice.)  I just want to see Americans free, still fighting, with women being treated normally.

[kittykat]

6 hours ago, Ariam said:

1. stop making June an asshole. She is an antihero, but not a smart one, she is most like a teenage bully from a cheap teenage highschool drama. I bet none of the people who tuned in to the program for its feminist idea really appreciate the stupid way June has been developed. Teach her to speak English that doesn't sounds like a 12 year old talking back at her mother. She was an editor after all. Also, get rid of the angry eyes, they are universally hated. 

She's already watched Jane Eleanor die and had her "I am the one who knocks" moment with Lawrence.  There needs to be dire consequences for June.  The only thing I can think of her getting out of this is that word gets out in Canada she's set to be executed and maybe her part in the great escape gets out hoping to incite backlash on Gilead against the world.  That won't happen.  I'll scream when I find out she's pregnant with Lawrence's child which is TOTALLY going to happen.

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Right now Spy Guy is the only one on screen representing the USA.  Don't make him an idiot.  Have him use the famous Serena Joy to bring down Gilead.

We know Bruce wants Yvonne and Joseph to stick around.  I know courtroom scenes can be tedious but they should OJ the shit out of their trials and broadcast it WORLDWIDE!  It could be a great lens to view everyone's reaction.  Realistically the entire world wouldn't be disgusted by this, other extremist regimes would applaud it and it would be interesting if we learned that there were other countries in fact adapting the "Gilead Model," as was teased with the Mexico episode.  But again, world view!  Will that happen?  Horse. Dead. Beaten.

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The best way I can think of to keep June in Gilead proper, which apparently he's intent on doing, and especially with the current PERIL! he wrote for her, is to smuggle her out to the resistance.  She doesn't want to leave without Hannah, so have her join the actually fighters trying to defeat Gilead.  It would make far more sense than her staying alive, still in Handmaid garb and role, with a gunshot wound no less.  

That would be a great direction for June's story.  Except I fear they would have her leading the rebels within a week with her "i know all" faces. But it reintegrates Nick into the story since they left us hanging with "Nick did terrible things." last season.  It would be a way for June to confront Nick with his past deeds in forming Gilead.  I wonder if he was part of the squad that attacked the White House and killed the President or Congress, that would certainly be a big red mark on his accomplishments.

But yes June's story has been told.  They keep giving us teasers of the world, expand it.

Also as discussed in the other thread about the map, it would be nice if parts of rebel occupied US were deemed safe enough to lighten the load from Canada.  Seattle or Portland with it's proximity to Canada and being rebel secure would make good strongholds for returning citizens.  Perhaps the fighting goes well enough that states can be reclaimed.  I know it's a bleak show but I want some good news for the good guys.

[alexvillage]

13 hours ago, HeySandyStrange said:

I agree, but I wonder how much of this is not happening in the first place is due to funding. Which leads me to another thing I want for this show: more funding! Hulu being cheapskates is not doing their one prestige show any good. I'm not asking for Game of Thrones level spectacle, but give some more world building, which would mean more sets and actors, would go a long way imo.

If the show is being renewed than it is unlikely they are having trouble with sponsors - which is a whole other WTF to me. But even if they do need more money, it looks like Alexis and Samira are still under contract so USE THEM! Use the other actors and create (what a concept, creativity) stories that are interesting.

[Ashforth]

Hey Bruce Miller:

Tell your story within the confines of the show itself. If you can't do that, you fail as an artist. 

Viewers should not need to watch "inside the episode" or interviews with the actors to figure out what the show is trying to say, or tie up the loose ends, or make sense of the nonsensical things that you and your writers put into the story. 

[Umbelina]

Where do you guys think the story could believably pick up after that finale?

We already know June will not die from her wound, or be hung, or stoned to death, Bruce Miller already told us that much.  So with that as a given?  What would you like to see happen next?

We left off:

• The kids are in Canada.  Obviously, Gilead would be in a uproar.
• Very few Martha's and no Handmaids that I saw went with them.
• June has a wound like Serena's, very near the old ovary/womb area, which didn't mean a thing in Serena's case.  As a matter of fact Miller didn't even realize viewers might logically assume that caused her infertility, but hey, that's another issue. 
• 6 Handmaids are carrying June back on a handmaid dress stretcher at dawn. 
• Lawrence is still in Gilead.
• We don't know if Alma or Janine's kids got out.
• Fred and Serena are now both arrested and being charged with crimes. 
• June had unprotected sex with Lawrence.

So how does next season start?  What would you do or like to see, given all of the above?  Or, forget about "starts" if you like, that's a pretty big hole he left, how do you want, given all of the above, the major arcs to play out in season 4?

Edited August 17, 2019 by Umbelina
clarified

[Umbelina]

One thing I would like the show to address, is discontent among the unmarried men/boys in Gilead.  Sex isn't allowed outside of procreation, and the state decides if and when you will be married, and to whom.  

In the book they talk about rewarding

Spoiler

particularly good soldiers fighting the wars with wives when they get back,

as a way to keep them in line.

Meanwhile, frankly, that's a lot of very horny men and teenagers running around!  That particular pot would begin to blow, don't you think?  There is something similar happening in some country in the middle east that I read about, sorry, I can't remember which one.  They are also not allowed sex outside of marriage, and something about low wages or no jobs that pay well enough for them to even consider marriage, and it's resulted in demonstrations and troubles there.

They don't get to visit Jezebels after all, and I have to assume tension is (ahem) rising among them.

[kittykat]

Kids in Canada:. Obviously there will probably be a few reunions with the older kids but there is definitely going to be complications with younger kids.  They were given different names, probably don't remember birth parents not to mention those whose parents were killed.  Logically maybe half the kids will be lucky enough to find an immediate family member like Rebecca did but it is going to be a tough and complicated process to get kids to families or re home, especially with handmaid children. It could give Emily and Moira something to do.  Rita could possibly adopt one.

Marthas and Handmaids that stayed behind: not looking good for Marthas since they have an expendable supply it seems.  I'm thinking Janine, Brianna and Alma are safe bit not comfortable.  Unless they pretend to turn on June and say they tried to stop her, like the Waterfords did with June and Emily.  I don't know how this works out but if the three above survive with little to no consequences I'll allow it.  Brucey, can you spare a little plot armor for the B team?

I highly doubt Alma's kid or Charlotte got out.  Janine would have been all over hers and Alma said hers was too far.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, I mean logically, why not lock all the handmaids up, and only release them, with an Aunt guard, during "Ceremony Nights" and then simply return them to lock up at the Handmaid's center?

The Martha's though?  Since Miller made sure one was captured?  Good luck with the idea that the whole group wouldn't be killed, and then replaced.

[chaifan]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, I mean logically, why not lock all the handmaids up, and only release them, with an Aunt guard, during "Ceremony Nights" and then simply return them to lock up at the Handmaid's center?

The Martha's though?  Since Miller made sure one was captured?  Good luck with the idea that the whole group wouldn't be killed, and then replaced.

My guess is that if they locked up the handmaids that would destroy the illusion that the handmaids are willing participants, that this is a "voluntary" position, not one they're forced in to.  I can't believe any of the wives truly believe the handmaids are there by choice, but they have to have plausible deniability to sell the ceremony to themselves. 

As for where we go in Season 4, I've posted this before but my hope is that we get out of Boston and that the show is centered somewhere else.  Chicago would make sense.  June and the 6 handmaids make their way, with help of the resistance/Martha underground to Chicago.  Gilead thinks they've all escaped to Canada, so there's no manhunt for them.  Nick reappears and helps out the resistance.  I would love about 1/3 of the time to be devoted to everyone in Canada, but I highly doubt that will happen.  Truello finds out the true circumstance behind the June/Nick rape, which changes Serena's fate, but destroys the trust that was building between the two.  I'd like there to be a way to keep Comm. Lawrence in the story, just because I love Bradley Whitford. 

[BrindaWalsh]

I have a tough time seeing how these Martha's and handmaids can go back to their stations in Gilead after all of these women and children are discovered missing, so I'm kind of wondering if we are seeing the start of the 

Spoiler

Underground Femaleroad?

We know it exists, according to the book, it would fit the progression of what we know is June's story, and it would get us out of the Gilead rut.  It could give us an insider look at how the resistance works, perhaps open some kind of line of communication between these women and Canada, keeping our favorite characters relevant to the story, bring Nick back into the story, and honestly doesn't seem to compromise marvel-June while opening up storyline potential for the other handmaids.  

[Umbelina]

I put this in the media thread but as I'm listening to it, I realize he's talking quite a bit about possible season 4 considerations/ideas.

So, here you go, he sounds fairly  thoughtful in this.  https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/handmaids-tale-podcast-bruce-miller-explains-season-3-finale-1232219

Woo!  He says more time will be spent in Canada!  

This is worth a listen, he's mentioning a bunch of important considerations for the future.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Umbelina

[alexvillage]

14 hours ago, kittykat said:

Kids in Canada:. Obviously there will probably be a few reunions with the older kids but there is definitely going to be complications with younger kids.  They were given different names, probably don't remember birth parents not to mention those whose parents were killed.  Logically maybe half the kids will be lucky enough to find an immediate family member like Rebecca did but it is going to be a tough and complicated process to get kids to families or re home, especially with handmaid children. It could give Emily and Moira something to do.  Rita could possibly adopt one.

Another point that shows how unprepared to go beyond the book those showruiners were/are. Resistance movements are slow, frustrating. Taking a bunch of kids away from the, in some cases, the only parents they know is cruel when you don't have a plan for them. There are so may cults in real life, even some mainstream religious people, who treat their children and don't teach them anything but their many times twisted and absurd beliefs (like dismissing science completely, which is not in itself abuse but think about the consequences) and yet, we don't go around snatching the kids away from those parents.

Gilead is a dystopia and someone's gut might say - let's save the kids! but the truth is, something like that can cause more problems than help in the long run. And thinking about Resistance as one YAY,VICORY! without a real plan, only vengeance that uses kids as objects, is not very thoughtful. The writers want the emotional appeal to be bigger than the actual story development.

Historically, slaves escaping the south and telling their stories in the north was a big push for the beginning of the end of slavery. Handmaids escaping and telling their stories about having kids left in Gilead that they are not allowed to even see, would - slowly, for sure - increase the movement. Not to mention all the other stuff. Diplomacy is still hard with authoritarians but nuclear powers today still engage - not to jinx anything with the type of buffoon we have occupying a certain famous address - they don't want to end the world, so the idea that Canada is so afraid of Gilead'd nukes doesn't hold water. 

But of course, we are dealing with YAY, VICTORY! writers and they want the high fives more than they want story development. They haven't done anything with the refugees in Gilead, they missed another opportunity, they turned June into the Super Renegade June Wick who will probably literally fly out of Gilead at the end, instead of using historic examples and making her - since they insist on having this one handmaid telling the tale - an actual hero, like Harriet Tubman, to keep with the analogy.

History does repeat itself with the bad but also with the good, because people do get engaged. The writers are showing how ignorant they are, on top of being simply bad at their craft, which is storytelling. 

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 2:42 PM, Umbelina said:

Showing Moira doing internet interviews or Luke holding the camera while she makes videos and posts them to the new youtube GILEAD SUCKS account?  Doesn't cost a dime.  Have international reporters interview her!  Have them interview Emily about the colonies too!  Have them interview Luke about wanting Holly back!  All of that can take place on sets they already have.

As far as the "war" scenes?  They also don't have to be big or elaborate.  We don't need to see battles, just the people hiding in caves or abandoned buildings talking about or preparing for them, homemade bombs destroying a Guardian truck, easy and inexpensive crap.  This, from all accounts is a Gorilla type war, so no need for tanks and all the rest (although one might be nice.)  I just want to see Americans free, still fighting, with women being treated normally.

Yes, all of this!

I admit I bailed out early in season 3 because I just couldn't take the close-ups any longer.

I am not a fan of June the writers made me hate her. I want to see more of the world, what's happening in Texas, California, Oregon, Hawaii, England, Ireland? I know they will never show viewers other States and Counties besides Canada but I need to know more. I really want to see the resistance in action.

I honestly don't know if I'll come back for season 4. I'll read the post and if an episode seems interesting I'll check it out, but it doesn't seem like I missed anything in season 3.

[greekmom]

I wonder at this point they can't excuse what June did but they can't put her on the wall either.

Putting her on the wall will create a martyr.  I think that June might be sent off to work in the labour camps were Emily and Janine were sent and escape.  

I don't want to see Phase 2 of Gilead were things get worse.  I think poor Janine, Alma and co. will get rings put in their lips IF not much worse.

Also, hoping that Rita assists in giving evidence on the Waterfords. 

[Umbelina]

I think for anything to be believable here, Nick, the new Commander, really has to step in and get June out of Boston.

He's supposedly stationed in Chicago fighting one group of "rebels" (loyal to the USA people.)  We know he has contacts, and probably works with Mayday on some level.  Or maybe I just want to see the resistance so much that I'm biased into thinking that's the smartest solution here?

What about the others though?  The Marthas, the Handmaids that assisted this?  OK, the Handmaids, I can buy, are valuable since they are the only known fertile and available women around to serve Commanders.  I can see a security crack down on them, something major.  But the Marthas are easily replaced!  We saw that huge group of women they were shipping to the Colonies, when June was ordered to "pick 5 to save."  So what stops their mass executions, and the destruction of a large part of the Mayday resistance in Boston?

I enjoy the idea of the leaders of Gilead panicking though.  When you really think of it, this is so huge.  2 prominent Commanders gone, one missing, one known to be in Canada, and I think known to be captured?  What exactly did Lawrence say, "arrested?"  Do they think he turned himself in?  Do they think he defected or was just doing something shady when arrested?  I want to know all of that.  If they follow the book,

Spoiler

the later is more possible, since there, he was executed in Gilead as a traitor.  Which may mean the USA eventually returns him to Gilead, since Canada has no death penalty and they know Gilead will kill him if they just leak a few of the details Fred gave them.  ???

Having all of the Boston Mayday group live, or just continue life as usual would be the most unbelievable story, and a huge mistake.  Having them all killed, while realistic, would also be terrible to watch.  

IF they get them to the resistance though, via Nick's help?  Where does that leave the Boston group?  Maybe, we can just leave it behind?  I'm good with that.  Send Lawrence to DC, have him start to bring Gilead down through political channels/subversion in order to "clean up his own mess."  Then again, when they do mass round ups, which, of course they would?  Someone under torture is going to admit they were told to meet at his house.  That Martha that escaped probably already has!

Bruce Miller said he likes to write himself into corners at the end of seasons and then try to figure out how to get out of them.  The problem here is, this is a huge fucking corner, and trying to imagine any remotely plausible way to 'get out of it' is ...beyond difficult.

[chaifan]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

What about the others though?  The Marthas, the Handmaids that assisted this?  OK, the Handmaids, I can buy, are valuable since they are the only known fertile and available women around to serve Commanders.  I can see a security crack down on them, something major.  But the Marthas are easily replaced!  We saw that huge group of women they were shipping to the Colonies, when June was ordered to "pick 5 to save."  So what stops their mass executions, and the destruction of a large part of the Mayday resistance in Boston?

To me, it seemed that all the Marthas that brought children stayed with the children and are in Canada.  Any handmaids from those families a) may not have known anything about the plan, and b) if they did know, could claim they didn't.  Same with any remaining Marthas if the handmaids disappeared with the children.  That doesn't mean there won't be a horrible security crackdown to ensure this won't happen again, but I think it gives the remaining Marthas & handmaids plausible safety.

Did both of Lawrence's Martha's get out? 

I'm going to amend my "here's what I want to happen" post above...  I'd like them to do a time jump, just about 6 months or so.  Start with June & the handmaids that saved her safely somewhere (my vote is Chicago) and working for the resistance.  Fill in the gaps with a few flashbacks or exposition/narration to explain how they got there.  Then just move forward. 

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, chaifan said:

To me, it seemed that all the Marthas that brought children stayed with the children and are in Canada.  Any handmaids from those families a) may not have known anything about the plan, and b) if they did know, could claim they didn't.  Same with any remaining Marthas if the handmaids disappeared with the children.  That doesn't mean there won't be a horrible security crackdown to ensure this won't happen again, but I think it gives the remaining Marthas & handmaids plausible safety.

Did both of Lawrence's Martha's get out? 

I'm going to amend my "here's what I want to happen" post above...  I'd like them to do a time jump, just about 6 months or so.  Start with June & the handmaids that saved her safely somewhere (my vote is Chicago) and working for the resistance.  Fill in the gaps with a few flashbacks or exposition/narration to explain how they got there.  Then just move forward. 

I kept counting Marthas on that plane.  The MOST I saw was 3!  More than 52 assisted, since more than 52 kids were brought, AND then you had the ones like Lawrence's Marthas who helped but didn't bring kids.

SO, if we guess, say 75 kids got out?  That's 75 Martha's (or say 70 maybe some families had 2 kids) and Lawrences, AND the Handmaids, none of whom escaped!

My count of 3 may not be correct, but I know damn well it wasn't more than 10 getting off that plane, and probably not more than 5.  That leaves dozens of Marthas stuck in Gilead, and nearly a dozen Handmaids complicate, but not on that plane.

[Umbelina]

[Umbelina]

Lightened this one, is that a handmaid in the left corner?  Or just a kid kept warm by a handmaid's cape?

If anyone has other stills, that would be good.  The only Martha I saw getting off was Rita, and no handmaids at all.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Umbelina

[chaifan]

Umbelina, you're right.  I re-watched the plane scene.  I think I originally took the boys blue outfits for Marthas.  I could spot only 2, maybe 3 Marthas, no handmaids.  There were 3 or 4 Marthas who came back to help June stone the guards in the truck, and I don't think any of them survived. 

I would hope any Marthas who dropped off kids and weren't going through the woods to get on the plane disappeared elsewhere.  Unless they went back home and drugged themselves to make it look like a third party drugged everyone and stole the kids, there's no way they'd survive returning to the homes. 

32 minutes ago, chaifan said:

To me, it seemed that all the Marthas that brought children stayed with the children and are in Canada.  Any handmaids from those families a) may not have known anything about the plan, and b) if they did know, could claim they didn't.  Same with any remaining Marthas if the handmaids disappeared with the children.  That doesn't mean there won't be a horrible security crackdown to ensure this won't happen again, but I think it gives the remaining Marthas & handmaids plausible safety.*

Did both of Lawrence's Martha's get out? 

I'm going to amend my "here's what I want to happen" post above...  I'd like them to do a time jump, just about 6 months or so.  Start with June & the handmaids that saved her safely somewhere (my vote is Chicago) and working for the resistance.  Fill in the gaps with a few flashbacks or exposition/narration to explain how they got there.  Then just move forward. 

*ETA:  After watching the plane video posted below I realize I was wrong - only a few Marthas were on the plane.  My bad.

[MV713]

saw a BTH picture on Reddit that there were actually some econwives and a Commander's wife in the procession to the plan.

[Umbelina]

23 minutes ago, MV713 said:

saw a BTH picture on Reddit that there were actually some econwives and a Commander's wife in the procession to the plan.

I don't know what this means.  What's a BTH picture, and what procession to the plan?

[Ariam]

Rita didn't even bring a kid, but she got out. The ones that endagered their lives didn't. Makes no sense at all.

[maggiegil]

What I thought was going to happen in the last episode after Eleanor died but obviously didn't happen was that the escape was going ahead but Lydia freaks out about a widowed man having a handmaid and that shenanigans will go on so says shes reassigning June (June would realise what a mistake she made in not saving Eleanor).

In order that the escape can still go ahead Lawrence marries June (I thought maybe possible now that hes gotten some power back). The kids get out but June has to stay for Hannah and we go into next season with June as a wife and get to see more of Gilead from that POV especially as we no longer have Serena. I thought it would be really interesting to see her socialise with Hannah's new Mother now she would be on the same social level and see how she would try to get her back using her upgraded social status. It would have been really interesting to see her dealing with the Aunts when shes at the same level/slightly above but have to toe the party line and play along.

I was obviously completely wrong but its where my mind wandered off to when Eleanor died.

[AllyB]

If Lawrence was so powerful and he really didn't want to take part in the ceremony rape a woman every month why didn't he make sure he was allocated a kidnapped child? Eleanor would have likely abhorred the idea of stealing a child. But if he'd gotten a child young enough not to cry coherently for it's family he could have lied to her about it's terrible home life and she'd have gotten attached to it before she realised the depths of the depravity of Gilead. Not ideal but better and far less risky than having to have a succession of pretend handmaids.

The problem is that, once again, the writers have given absolutely no thought into how Gilead works. Commanders who were given the option to receive actual children would surely have been higher up the power ladder. Some may have preferred the handmaid rape option, but with Jezebels for all their rapey wants, you'd have to presume most Commanders would prefer a child, as having a child is a status symbol. Sons for the higher status Commanders, obviously. With younger children also having a higher value. Whoever got Alma's baby son, for example, would have had to have been a very, very powerful man.

And on that kind of ranking, Matthew must be quite the rising star to have been assigned Natalie, a handmaid who had three babies for Gilead in 5 years. (Mega fertile Natalie being a total plothole obviously as the fertility issue is with the men. She could only have had three babies in 5 years and then gotten pregnant again, if she had miraculously been assigned to 4 fertile Commanders magical succession. Which is so statistically unlikely it's practically impossible. Or she was getting her sperm elsewhere which wouldn't have been in character.)

Edited August 25, 2019 by AllyB

[Umbelina]

10 hours ago, maggiegil said:

In order that the escape can still go ahead Lawrence marries June (I thought maybe possible now that hes gotten some power back). The kids get out but June has to stay for Hannah and we go into next season with June as a wife and get to see more of Gilead from that POV especially as we no longer have Serena. I thought it would be really interesting to see her socialise with Hannah's new Mother now she would be on the same social level and see how she would try to get her back using her upgraded social status. It would have been really interesting to see her dealing with the Aunts when shes at the same level/slightly above but have to toe the party line and play along.

I can see why your mind went there, but June is a complete "sinner" and marriage to her would be illegal in Gilead law.  You don't graduate from "sinner" to wife.

Also, there is no way in hell any "Wife" would go along with a handmaid becoming a wife, and even the commanders are aware that doing something like that would be a step too far for them.  Remember they made up the whole "religious ceremony" crap to sell the idea of handmaids to their wives.  

5 hours ago, AllyB said:

And on that kind of ranking, Matthew must be quite the rising star to have been assigned Natalie, a handmaid who had three babies for Gilead in 5 years. (Mega fertile Natalie being a total plothole obviously as the fertility issue is with the men. She could only have had three babies in 5 years and then gotten pregnant again, if she had miraculously been assigned to 4 fertile Commanders magical succession. Which is so statistically unlikely it's practically impossible. Or she was getting her sperm elsewhere which wouldn't have been in character.)

Absolutely!

They could have at least had her already pregnant when captured or something.  Even then though?  3 more fertile Commanders in subsequent years?  Sure.  Right.  OK then.

[JasonCC]

Add me to the list who wants more little nuggets of good news/hope/politics of the outside world even if it's just passed along information that we don't see. Like Handmaids passing along rumors they've heard, or a return of the American radio broadcasts trying to bring hope to those imprisoned in Gilead. 

Just like it was gut-wrenching when we learned Chicago finally fell to Gilead maybe we could learn Seattle/Washington State are firmly in American control again or something like that as was mentioned above! We (and the Handmaids) need little bits of hope. Personally, I'd love hearing news of what the American exile government in Anchorage is doing and wouldn't it be uplifting if it comes out the president-in-exile/commander in chief is a woman? At this point there's probably been an election by Americans in Alaska/Hawaii/American military stationed abroad. Although I've not been told this explicity (or have we?) I assume Canada is in such a touchy situation and trying not to anger either is because Gilead possesses many nuclear weapons etc, but so does USA/Anchorage as I suspect some portion of the US Military abroad are loyal and reporting to the government in Alaska. There's a lot of US nuclear warhead subs out there.

Edited August 28, 2019 by JasonCC

[kittykat]

We finally have The Testaments!  After reading a preview of the book im really hoping the show does a time jump.  I imagine if Miller & co does appropriate the new source material it will be a season 5 or 6 thing.  

[Umbelina]

On 9/3/2019 at 6:54 PM, kittykat said:

We finally have The Testaments!  After reading a preview of the book im really hoping the show does a time jump.  I imagine if Miller & co does appropriate the new source material it will be a season 5 or 6 thing.  

I hope so!

We have a thread for that now, so I won't talk about it here, except to say, HEY BRUCE MILLER!  Follow Margaret Atwood's new book even more than you already are!

[JoeyB]

Just watched the end of Season 3, don't want to bump weeks old threads now so some musings here of what I'd like explained in season 4, some as core aspects of the storyline, some as flashbacks etc, say during the trials of Serena/Fred....

Sounding like a broken record as I see it's mentioned so much but PLEASE do something more than this being the June show. There's literally an entire world to explore, such as...

1) More on Gilead's international relations, at first we saw the Mexicans visit, who seemed reluctantly supportive of the regime, at least in the interest of the handmaid system. What about other nations? We have nations right now who have quite conservative religious rulers in place. A few Middle Eastern nations in particular I'd have thought might express a willingness to adopt a Gilead-esque model, albeit not Christian rooted, especially if the worldwide birth rate collapse allows for more radical leaderships to take charge, which it would. I'd like to see more envoys etc. Then there's trade in general, they seem to trade to a degree with Canada, what about the rest of the world? I know they mentioned a huge reduction in fossil fuel usage, mainly due to going back to the "olden days", but are they totally self-sufficient? I assume not completely.

2) The resistance, for the love of God please take us to the front lines. Exactly what is it made up of, is it mostly civilian, are there swaths of US army personnel here? The US has an enormous military presence around the world, what happened to this during the Gilead uprising? Did many defect? Was it somehow ensured all high ranking military officials were on-side and thus troops were all called back to the US just before this occurred, warning signals to the rest of the world here? What weaponry is being used? We don't see much in the way of military hardware, say helicopters tasked to hunt down missing handmaids, children etc. But if Gilead does still have access to them the resistance should be annihilated within short time unless they themselves have a vast array of hardware. There are radiation zones, so there was some intranational nuclear weapons usage, flashback to this?

3) How is the rest of the world doing birth wise? Obviously we assume there hasn't been any great "cure" for this infertility as of yet or Gilead really would start to collapse I feel. Is research into this gaining any ground? Are fertile women/men/couples being encouraged to have as many children as possible via extremely generous state aid? Are fertile women being voluntary "handmaids"/surrogates in some nations, maybe lauded as heroes?

4) Where's the real leadership of Gilead? I refuse to accept what we've seen thus far, which seems to be casual gentlemen's chats over golf/wine on occasion, is what's running a new nation composing of a significant portion of the USA. We've seen DC seems to be very much a hardline/pious version of the Gilead system, to the extent the characters we follow, even Aunt Lydia etc, seem bemused. But is that the model much of the other states/regions are now following, or is every state doing things their own way, to small degrees at least? We haven't really seen any clashing between Commanders, alliances within alliances etc, it seems Gilead is rather corrupt and clearly these founding Commanders do not really see eye to eye at all, but stumble along with some "well we somewhat respect each other" mantra. What about the general running of the country? Energy, agriculture etc? Do they have entire new government departments? I mean to a degree everything seems to be following reasonably smoothly when it comes to power, food, running water, access to petroleum etc. We clearly aren't having situations where agricultural workers, likely slaves, are full on revolting against this regime etc.

I could go on, but sadly I feel these things don't matter, because you can't have a close up of June's vacant or smirking expression every 30 seconds or so if you explore these actual themes a serious drama might consider doing...

Edited September 18, 2019 by JoeyB

[greekmom]

On 8/25/2019 at 6:55 AM, AllyB said:

If Lawrence was so powerful and he really didn't want to take part in the ceremony rape a woman every month why didn't he make sure he was allocated a kidnapped child? Eleanor would have likely abhorred the idea of stealing a child. But if he'd gotten a child young enough not to cry coherently for it's family he could have lied to her about it's terrible home life and she'd have gotten attached to it before she realised the depths of the depravity of Gilead. Not ideal but better and far less risky than having to have a succession of pretend handmaids.

I was under the impression Lawrence didn't want or like children.  Eleanor wanted them but he didn't.  I assumed he did all what he did for "the greater good".

[Kip Hackman]

After watching the finale, I'm guessing that June's wound will cause some genetic mutation, where she develops heat vision, or the ability to fly.

Or both.

[AllyB]

On 9/22/2019 at 8:24 PM, greekmom said:

I was under the impression Lawrence didn't want or like children.  Eleanor wanted them but he didn't.  I assumed he did all what he did for "the greater good".

Yes I know he didn't want a child but it was still incredibly stupid of him not to take one. Having a child meant not having to have a handmaid. And as much as he may not have liked children it would have been a lot safer to have a child in the house than risk everyone in the household's lives by having a handmaid while refusing to do the ceremony. It may also have helped Eleanor as she may have been distracted from the horrors of Gilead and it may have somewhat tempered her mental state. I know that her mental illness was largely exacerbated by the lack of her medication but she was enormously distressed by Gilead and a handmaid's presence in the house was a constant reminder in the same way that a child may have been a distraction.

[Ceindreadh]

48 minutes ago, AllyB said:

Yes I know he didn't want a child but it was still incredibly stupid of him not to take one. Having a child meant not having to have a handmaid. And as much as he may not have liked children it would have been a lot safer to have a child in the house than risk everyone in the household's lives by having a handmaid while refusing to do the ceremony. It may also have helped Eleanor as she may have been distracted from the horrors of Gilead and it may have somewhat tempered her mental state. I know that her mental illness was largely exacerbated by the lack of her medication but she was enormously distressed by Gilead and a handmaid's presence in the house was a constant reminder in the same way that a child may have been a distraction.

Lawrence having a handmaid in his house means that there’s one woman in red not getting raped every month. 

[CarolV]

Bruce,  we Also Want Nick & June->Together.  Even Strong Christians-Do Things... when Life Is.. Tragic! & Desperately!!-Lonely & Hard.  Luke & the Little Blonde-(who-had-Her-Kids/Taken-from Her)... Are 5 years into Living/w/each Other & Chaste!- but Now that Luke/Knows-that June, Understands-The Desperation + Need-for Sexual Release- It's Time/for Them/to be Human/Too. As the "Spirit is Willing-but the Flesh, is-weak." (W.W TWO-Proved-that-Desperation!)...  June, Can't-Require/Perfection- from Nick-Because June, Has Used/Nick... Asking No Questions... & June, Hasn't Been Perfect; as None-Of-Us-Ever-Are...  &  Desperate People Do Desperate Things-to-Survive-(Even Mentally).   Hoping You'll Consider/This-for Season FOUR.  I  Buy All-Seasons->On DVD-as Soon! as They're-Out.  BTW:  I miss DOLORES!... Where is She?... /Series/Is a Blend Of Sorrow/PAIN/ Occasional/JOY & VICTORY!  &  COURAGE! (Using the Handmaids-To- "Salvage" Humans/Is Very NAZI.  Also- I'm rather Surprised that You Haven't put-in a Muslim-Handmaid;  Captured & Used-as-a-Handmaid.  Canada has Lots-of-Muslims... & Seiks  & Hindu's... They/Would Be... "Mined." -for Gilead's Economy+Use!... as COMM. Lawrence... TOLD/the-Arrogant/Young+ Selfish COMM. who demanded "Salvages."...  Actually- Sometimes/The  "Elite's"  Show a Spark-of Humanity/but Not  Often... CV

[AllyB]

On 9/25/2019 at 8:46 AM, Ceindreadh said:

Lawrence having a handmaid in his house means that there’s one woman in red not getting raped every month. 

Did he care about that? In S3 Lawrence's main priority seemed to be Eleanor. Eleanor not having the strain of a Handmaid in the house and having the potential happy distraction of a child would be a much bigger motivator than some woman he didn't care about having an easier time for a few months.

[alexvillage]

On 9/25/2019 at 3:46 AM, Ceindreadh said:

Lawrence having a handmaid in his house means that there’s one woman in red not getting raped every month. 

But the handmaid ended up being raped, right? I didn't watch the second half of the show but wasn't he forced to rape June? For what I gathered from comments on the episodes here, whatever he did wasn't out of not supporting Gilead patriarchy and religious extremism, but out of trying anything to spare his wife of anything that she could find stressful.

[Umbelina]

His wife was in NO shape to care for a child.  Sure, the Martha's could have done it, but a baby in the house might have been even more stressful for Eleanor.  Especially a stolen baby, which it would be, since the handmaid would be sent to serve another Commander after nursing was over.

That alone would have probably sent Eleanor completely over the edge.  She hated the system, and being pushed into it that much would have most likely have been too much.

I don't think Joseph hated children, he would have probably liked to have a child.  He was great with those kids.  He had another responsibility though, and that was his wife.

[CarolV]

Bruce... I Felt-awful-too/when Nick/Wasn't In... &  I have a Thought On Season Four:  Bring-back- COMM.  PRICE-(He Could have been in a Nursing Home... So Important+Cared+for-as COMM/Albeit; waiting-to-die/w/a Miraculous Recovery!! Just in-Time-to Help Clean Things Up.  & Not Like The PSYCHO/Who Hanged-&-Shot- Innocent-People; for POWER:  That .... Serena+ Nick-Got Arrested... & prosecuted?...  I Presume.... COMM. PRICE!!- Did Seem-to-Be-a-More-SINCERE... Christian... Hmmm.  And He was KIND-to Nick/when He Needed It.  Perhaps-Price/Wouldn't Approve-of-the -POWER-CRAZED/Gilead... Men! & Want to Improve-Things. (BTW-  I hated Seeing Elinor-Succumb-to-Suicide... but-She-was-Fragile.  Believe it or-Not I See; bad & Goodness, in Motives.  But Aunt Lydia, IS Crazy-&-VIOLENT-& CRUEL. -&-I  Didn't mind/Watching-JUNE/KICK-the CACA-Out-Of That- "Pious" (?)--COMMANDER/w/TWO-Faces!!- &- GOOD-for-June.  I also Love the Mix-of-Ethnicity & Lesbianism!-(& as a Strong Christian; &-Some/Bullies -May have a problem/w/me). -But-that Is-for-GOD-to-Judge! as ALL of Our Sins-Before/Beloved!!!!... JESUS.  & CHRIST  Died for the Right To Judge!!!*  * Not-Tired of the Story Line; as THIS/Story/Like LIFE/Is-Complicated... C.V.

[CarolV]

BRUCE--                                                                                                            BTW-At Least-This Story/Line/Makes-You-THINK!!  & Search!!-Your-(OWN!) HEART!!  -&- SOUL.  In the- Lesbian Love/w/Emily-&-Wife-&-Oscar; It Was So Tender... I felt-a-broken-Heart & It Seemed/So Lovely.  Again, Not Giving Permission/But/UNDERSTANDING!!!.... That's Human, to Comprehend... C.V.

[Umbelina]

I honestly don't know why there will be a season 5 of Handmaid's Tale, or what they can possibly do next.

Obviously Serena is being bumped up to main villain, but honestly, how long can that last?

They should jump to Testaments now.  Personally, I think they've already put their foot in, but really?  It seems like it's time.

Wait, perhaps next season will involve time jumps?  Nicole growing up enough for Testaments?

Any ideas?

[madpsych78]

I think Hannah needs to be a more prominent character. She's almost the age where she will be ready to be married. And, I would like for Esther to come back next season.

[Umbelina]

Just now, madpsych78 said:

I think Hannah needs to be a more prominent character. She's almost the age where she will be ready to be married. And, I would like for Esther to come back next season.

Yeah, I expect a time jump soon, into Testaments territory, and the new show.

I honestly don't know what they will do staying with Handmaid's Tale for another season.  It seems it would be the perfect time to make the jump.

I do think Lydia's a better foil for Serena than Tuello though, so I expect her butt back in Gilead soon.