S04.E01: The Dark Moon

[Guest]

When one of their friends goes missing, Scott and the pack travel into Mexico on a search and rescue mission.

[XtremeOne1]

Not sure how I feel about the show coming back. Last season started off promising and quickly feel into the same pattern of disaster. We've got a bunch of new characters now(and I'm only feeling Kira, not Mila aka Inconsistent Girl aka Gross Hook Up aka Terrible Hair aka plot device to make Peter a "better man" instead of killing the d-bag.

 

I hope this season goes back to the more fun basics, that Lydia isn't all her bugged eyed and helpless and given plot convenient powers and that the female characters get a better go of it this season

[blueray]

Hm... I guess I liked it. I was a bit confused by the beginning. While I know that they flashed back but I'd rather have seen that in order. And couldn't help but thinking do their parents know they are in Mexico? I guess Scott's, Kira and Stiles parents are in the know so might have understood that they had to look for Derek. Mila (or whatever her name is) has no one to get permission from. But what about Lydia? I guess she just lied.

 

Anyhow, the episode was definitely exciting. It was great to have the real Stiles back. And the pack's interactions were good. I surprisingly didn't mind Mila as much as I thought I would. She kind of Jessi from Kyle XY for some reason, which isn't a bad thing.

 

As for the ending... yeah I definitely didn't see that coming. And honestly was disappointed. I wanted him to turn into something more interesting like a real wolf or something. Being younger has been done to death, unless he just continues to get younger which would be different lol.

 

Overall, I'd give this episode a 8 out 10. Definitely a great opening to the season.

Edited June 24, 2014 by blueray

[benteen]

It was okay but I'm glad they should be back in California next month.  I do like the new Scooby gang but they would be better off leaving Derek where he is.  Derek can't help taking everyone down with him because of his stupid decision-making ability or lack thereof.

 

Liked the Mexican wolf hunter matriarch.

 

Also liked the backstory on how Kate survived...it definitely fit her character.

 

Mila has trouble understanding human relationships (whether to leave others behind) but knows how to fake lesbian sexy dance.

Edited June 24, 2014 by benteen

[Atony]

I can't imagine the young Derek thing going on that long...because that would be unfair to Tyler Hoechlin, but it legitimately surprised me and curious to see an explanation for what happened.

 

Overall I did think this episode was exciting and a good way to start the season.  Malia was an okay addition, the only thing I didn't care for was her "I would never leave YOU Stiles".  I get what they are going with in the whole "coyotes mate for life" but her attachment comes off as a little damaged and creepy.

 

In terms of guest cast the older mexican hunter had good presence, I like the actress.  And nice to see Braeden again (did we already know her name? I feel bad I remembered her as Not!BiancaLawson), but she pulls off the mercenary thing well.  I was enjoying her digs with Scott.

 

It is a little amusing that considering they said it was going back to the basics and more of the highschool comedy type setting this episode was anything but, but that is perfectly fine with me, I enjoyed it.

[SnoGirl]

They really couldn't have shown the adults in Beacon Hills for 2.0 seconds? Instead we get crazy club dancing. Boo to wasted time. They could have shown Kira was a bad dancer and moved on. I would have loved to see Melissa and Stilinski calling each other to see if they had heard from the kids yet.

Loved having Stiles back...part of me was hoping to see some sort of issues/guilt from all the craziness he went through last season, but it's Teen Wolf so I don't hold out any hope for it.

Loved the Wolf Pack. And holy female-to-male ratio! Loved that for once, there were more females then males. If that continued all year, I'd love it, so different for this show. Does anyone know if Brayden (spelling?) is sticking around beyond this episode?

Edited June 24, 2014 by SnoGirl

[benteen]

I do appreciate the reduced number of Wolf Pack members.  Also had to laugh that Scott managed to get himself and his pack caught.  Never change, Scott!

 

Stiles and Malia has definitely been a creepy relationship.

[Lady Calypso]

I don't know how I feel about the premiere. I kept going back and forth between 'WTF is this hot mess' and 'Oh, this could actually turn to be an interesting season'.

 

So far, I don't like Malia at all. I don't like her inconsistency this episode and I know I should like her dominating 'go getter' attitude but it actually turns me off a lot. We had two episodes with this girl last season, maybe three, and now she's a regular? I didn't get a feel for her last season and her being a regular isn't sitting with me thus far. I'll have to wait till the end of 4a to really decide whether I like her, but so far I do not. I also don't like the blatant Stiles/Malia vibes. But whatever, I guess a plus is that there's actually an even ratio of lead males to lead females (3:3). 

 

I am happy for more Lydia, and I still love Kira/Scott and Braeden calling her Scott's girlfriend. I guess the young!Derek twist could be interesting, and I'm kind of hoping they don't drag it out for the whole season, but they don't magically solve it next episode. I wouldn't mind a couple of episodes. 

 

The Mexican hunters were interesting, at least, and I like more clues about the nature of Scott's True Alpha status. So now he can magically conjour up a name (Kate) and rip out of the electric handcuffs? Also, I must have missed something, but how did Scott immediately think of Kate as the one who could have kidnapped Derek? I mean, I know the huntress said who would have a grudge with Derek, but I don't get why Scott would think of someone who's supposed to be dead. 

 

I guess Peter's going to have a shitty season, with finding out about Malia (I still wish it was Deputy Hottie Parrish) and finding out Kate's alive and probably gunning to kill him. I do like Peter, and I love the actor, but he definitely needs his ass kicked all season.

Edited June 24, 2014 by jessied112

[ElleryAnne]

I didn't think it was a great opener for the season, but it had its moments.  A couple of moments were good creepy touches.  The scenes and dialogue between Stiles and Lydia were the best part of the episode.

 

I was disappointed that Derek wasn't really in it, since he's my favorite.  Not counting young Derek, since it's actually Tyler Hoechlin as Derek who's my favorite.

 

It was great to have the real Stiles back.

 

 

IA.  As good as he was last season acting-wise, I've missed the Stiles we know and love.  It was good to have him back.

 

 

In terms of guest cast the older mexican hunter had good presence, I like the actress.

 

 

She really was good.  I don't remember being impressed with her in S3, but she was really interesting tonight.  

 

 

Does anyone know if Brayden (spelling?) is sticking around beyond this episode?

 

 

 

Braeden.

 And yes, I believe I heard that she's signed up for nine episodes this season.

 

 

 

So far, I don't like Malia at all. I don't like her inconsistency this episode and I know I should like her dominating 'go getter' attitude but it actually turns me off a lot.

 

 

I'm trying to give Malia some time, but I really didn't much like her tonight.  Her whole, "I'd leave them to die but not you" stuff was more awkward, less funny.  

 

 

I would have loved to see Melissa and Stilinski calling each other to see if they had heard from the kids yet.

 

 

Me, too.  I love them both so much.  A few seconds of them talking with or about the kids would've brought the episode up a bit.  Instead we get those few seconds dedicated to making sure we know Malia's hot.  Yeah, show.  I get it.  You want me to think she's all that.  I don't.  

Edited June 24, 2014 by ElleryAnne

[bluebonnet]

It's so hard to really get into this Malia character when she's written so inconsistently.  She apparently has excellent social skills when it requires the obligatory super sexy dance scene needed to fulfill the sex quota of an episode.  The she reverts back to super awkward and socially inept when close-ups of her boobs and touching Kira is no longer needed.  I'm totally cool with the idea of her not understanding the basics of social culture, but they need to be consistent with it for me to even begin to form a viewer relationship with her character.  

[SJiles]

I don't think Maia is completely unaware of social behaviors which was shown with the dance. I think stiles has been helping her with that before this episode we just did not see it. She is a work in progress which is why she was a little inconsistent. She knows some things but she still needs to learn more.

Edited June 24, 2014 by SJiles

[redsox7819]

I am not sure what to think. It was ok but I was bored at times. Not all the time but at points I was like whatever lets get to the Derek reveal. Which we all knew was coming at the end.

[bluebonnet]

I don't think Maia is completely unaware of social behaviors which was shown with the dance. I think stiles has been helping her with that before this episode we just did not see it. She is a work in progress which is why she was a little inconsistent. She knows some things but she still needs to learn more.

So he taught her how to dance and twerk and being in loud crowded areas before teaching her about friendship and loyalty?  

[HunterHunted]

I'm just gonna be shallow and say part of why Derek is my favorite is because he looks like Tyler Hoechlin. Not a fan of young Derek.

I was not a fan of the Mexican hunters. Most of their beats seemed to be vaguely ethic mystic crossed with Mexican stereotypes.

Edited June 24, 2014 by HunterHunted

[bluebonnet]

Now that you mention it, I realized I had a slight problem with the Mexican hunters as well.  They went to Beacon Hills to check on Kate's body.  Why didn't they go after the Alpha who did it (Peter Hale)?  Then they told Scott that if he turned an innocent, they'd hunt him.  Why didn't they go after the one who turned Scott (also Peter)?  Will Scott receive a get-out-of-jail-free card if he's dead for a short while after turning someone?  

 

Dang, I'm really nitpicky tonight.  And this is my favorite "turn your mind off and enjoy" show.  I blame the heat and humidity. 

[Lady Calypso]

I'm just gonna be shallow and say part of why Derek is my favorite is because he looks like Tyler Hoechlin. Not a fan of young Derek.

 

 

I agree. And as inconsistent as Peter's backstory is, I like teenage Peter a lot more than teenage Derek. 

[SJiles]

So he taught her how to dance and twerk and being in loud crowded areas before teaching her about friendship and loyalty?  

she learned to be in social settings which is important since now  she is going to  school with them. I think stiles has mention stuff like that to her but she has not fully grasp it yet. She was animal for a while so her thinking would be different. And I don't think she sees them as her friends yet though. She is not really attach to anyone but stiles. The whole episode stiles kept saying that progress and the rest of the group seem to understand she still thinks like an coyote.. 

[HunterHunted]

I agree. And as inconsistent as Peter's backstory is, I like teenage Peter a lot more than teenage Derek.

I agree. I'm a much bigger fan of teen Peter than of teen Derek. However with a teen Peter, I would sincerely miss calling him Evil Uncle Awesome.

[bluebonnet]

she learned to be in social settings which is important since now  she is going to  school with them. I think stiles has mention stuff like that to her but she has not fully grasp it yet. She was animal for a while so her thinking would be different. And I don't think she sees them as her friends yet though. She is not really attach to anyone but stiles. The whole episode stiles kept saying that progress and the rest of the group seem to understand she still thinks like an coyote.. 

I could maybe buy all of this if the scene was written a different way.  She should be awkward because she lived outside of society for her formative years.  If Malia is meant to consistently be awkward and learning how to live in society again, then she shouldn't be the one commanding the scene.  She shouldn't have been the one with perfect 2014 dance moves and rhythm or the one to intuitively know that two girls performing the sexy dance will invite their prey to them.  It should have been Kira directing it.  Even if Kira is portrayed as the quirky girl, she has at least spent her formative years (presumably) watching tv and learning all those social cues the average American teenager learns.  The scene was specifically written and filmed in order to titillate and effectively negated Malia's character development in the rest of the episode.  It made all of her other lines portraying confusion over typical human interaction come off as false.  

 

If they are going to show Malia as socially unaware yet learning how to function in society, it needs to be consistent.  She can't have absolutely no awareness about how to behave in a pack yet all the awareness of how to behave in a club.  After all, she's been with the pack for a time already and has never been in a club in Mexico before.  Probably hasn't been to any club at all, yet.  The annoying thing is, they could have easily achieved the goal of titillation while maintain a sense of consistency by having Kira directing the scene.  

Edited June 24, 2014 by bluebonnet

[Yitzhak]

Loved it! Great opener. Really enjoyed the whole Mexican adventure and the Jeep roadtrip. I love Stiles & Lydia in their 'Mulder & Scully: the Teen Years' type duo. I liked those two being sent in first as the brains of the operation and then Scott, Kira and Malia being revealed as their muscle. I'm so pumped for this to be the supernatural gangster season and Scott's using his gang for all their strengths. And yeah - where did Stiles get all that money from?

 

I'm really liking the unsentimental deadpan Malia characterization. Also this show always needed more female werewolves. And yay for Lydia's banshee powers finally being explored.  

 

Didn't like the ending. Derek turns into a lame fanfic trope? Ugh. I find Derek stories lame at the best of times. I really hope they fix it and move on quickly next episode.  

Edited June 24, 2014 by Yitzhak

[resonance]

They made Malia a regular? What? Why? How?

 

Aside from the fact that she really doesn't have much of a backstory or special persona and Davis has no idea how the audience will receive her, I got the impression last season that she may be a villain with a hidden agenda. Now she's just a part of the Scooby gang and in the opening credits ahead of Arden Cho?

 

I think Davis actually needs to cull the cast. He needs to properly develop (or eliminate) the characters he has such as Scott or Derek before adding a character with redundancies with both Lydia and Kira. The cast is big and I can't think of one properly, fully developed character except maybe Stiles.

[Gwen-Stacys]

I could maybe buy all of this if the scene was written a different way.  She should be awkward because she lived outside of society for her formative years.  If Malia is meant to consistently be awkward and learning how to live in society again, then she shouldn't be the one commanding the scene.  She shouldn't have been the one with perfect 2014 dance moves and rhythm or the one to intuitively know that two girls performing the sexy dance will invite their prey to them.  It should have been Kira directing it.    

Okay, not to pick on you or anything because I've seen a lot of people doing it, can we not say what Malia should or shouldn't be doing? One, she was cut off from human contact when she was 8 years old, not 1. That means that she had 8 previous years of human interaction, cues, and speech to fall back on. That means that her "rehabilitation" would not be as stunted as people keep saying it "should" be. Another important thing to note with human rehabilitation, the longer a child had social interaction before being thrust into solitude, the quicker/easier it is for them to re-learn how to be human/be around others. Malia's main problem right now is that she has very non-human instincts which they highlighted. Lastly, anyone who works in rehabilitation (I have a few friends who do or have family members that have had to go through it because of strokes and etc.) will tell you that time is all relative to the person. Meaning there is no such thing as "too fast" or "too slow". Everyone develops, or redevelops, at their own pace.

 

And even though Kira has been out and about in the world her whole life and seen other people dance, it doesn't mean she knows how to dance. Or how to dance with other people. In the Rave episode in 3B, you never once see her dancing or looking comfortable in that surrounding. Maybe she's an awkward partier...I've got one friend like that irl and we all Malia her when we go out. On top of that, Malia is in more of I "I have to blend in" mind sight than Kira is as she's been trying to "blend in" with humans for a few months at this point.

 

All in all, I liked this episode. There were some fun moments, some creepy moments, and a few that lagged. Oh! And I loved how Scott didn't want to leave without Stiles. But Imma need 25-50 year old Derek to come back soon, thank you very much.

I'm not sure if we're allowed to talk about the "coming up this season" previews in her...so I'll just leave it at that.

[galax-arena]

Goddamn, Holland Roden is a terrible actor.

 

I think Ian Nelson is adorable, and honestly Derek usually bores me to death as it is because he has around two facial expressions, so even though Deaged Derek is kinda making me cringe at how fanficcy it is, it can't make his character any worse for me. 

 

 

One, she was cut off from human contact when she was 8 years old, not 1. That means that she had 8 previous years of human interaction, cues, and speech to fall back on. That means that her "rehabilitation" would not be as stunted as people keep saying it "should" be.

Well, it's not like anyone has said that they expect her to be another Genie or (more relevant) Victor of Aveyron. If Malia had been cut off from human contact when she was one, then I'd have issues with her even being fluent in English. In any case, there is still a HUGE difference between an 8-year-old and a 16-year-old. Like, monumental. It's not like she was alone in the woods for only a couple of years when she had already hit puberty. So no, I don't think that someone cut off at 8 would really know how to handle herself in a club the way Malia did. 

 

That said, I haven't thought this show was actually good for a long time, and at this point Davis' inconsistency and lack of continuity and love affair with slow-mo amuse me more than anything else. It's pretty much in "love to hate it" territory for me. And as inconsistently as Malia is being written, I think she's amusing... whenever the Stalia ship isn't being pushed, that is. I liked her interactions with Kira more. 

Edited June 24, 2014 by galax-arena

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah, I agree that I don't mind Malia when she's interacting with Kira. I got some serious lesbian vibes from that club scene and thought they were going to start making out on the floor. But they're pushing the Stalia ship way too hard, and they even did it last season. At this point I'd take Stydia over them, because at least their relationship feels more organic. And I really only like Stiles/Lydia as friends, but I'd prefer it to Stiles/Malia. 

 

One, she was cut off from human contact when she was 8 years old, not 1. That means that she had 8 previous years of human interaction, cues, and speech to fall back on. That means that her "rehabilitation" would not be as stunted as people keep saying it "should" be.

 

 

Maybe that's true. I could see it, if she wasn't full on coyote/wolf for the last 8 years. I mean, I could read the club scene as Malia scoping out her 'prey' and relying on animal instincts or whatnot, but honestly, it would have been better if Malia had been the awkward dancer because she still wasn't used to her human form, and Kira was the one to be the confident one. It would have been a complete switch for Kira, who is known to be awkward and quirky, and it would have allowed us to see Malia struggle with the simple, teenager experiences like dancing at a club. 

 

I do understand and kind of liked Malia not understanding why they couldn't leave Lydia behind. That was actually a moment that showed how far she still has to come in terms of human interaction, even with a couple of months already in her human form. I think my major gripes with Malia deal with her interactions with Stiles (which really started last season when they randomly slept together for no good reason at all) and her leading things in the club. I think they do need to tone her down a little bit. We're still getting to know her and it's hard to really get into her with the flashing neon lights about her and Stiles. I get it from Malia's perspective that she's latching on to someone to help her through this experience, maybe kind of like a wolf/coyote might do with a mate. But Stiles? I don't completely understand his motivations when it comes to Malia because all we've seen is them interacting in the mental institution, then sleeping together, and now suddenly 'I can't leave you, Stiles' and whatnot.

[Gin and Tonic]

Oh, show.  I'm happy you and your cheesy ridiculousness is back.  I agree that the dance scene with Kira and Malia was silly.  Do coyotes lure? Or act playful to decieve their prey?  Then it would kinda make sense to me, but otherwise: silly. 

 

I did like her explaining - in great detail - how and why she would leave Lydia behind.  It was the "if hunting was bad that season, I'd eat her first" that sold me.

 

I also liked the tone they were going for.  The scene with Scott and Braeden in the crypt reminded me of the best parts of "Young Indiana Jones" and the like.  Very different from last years psychological horror.

[Bruinsfan]

Overall I really liked it. The teen cast seems to be gelling really well together, and I like that Scott now has a pack that's acting as a mostly cohesive unit rather than everone being scattered and doing their own thing. Also, Kate and the Calaveras are more promising antagonists (and not necessarily villains in the latter case) to me than the Nogitsune and silent, faceless Japanese demons.

 

Now that you mention it, I realized I had a slight problem with the Mexican hunters as well.  They went to Beacon Hills to check on Kate's body.  Why didn't they go after the Alpha who did it (Peter Hale)?  Then they told Scott that if he turned an innocent, they'd hunt him.  Why didn't they go after the one who turned Scott (also Peter)?  Will Scott receive a get-out-of-jail-free card if he's dead for a short while after turning someone?  

 

Dang, I'm really nitpicky tonight.  And this is my favorite "turn your mind off and enjoy" show.  I blame the heat and humidity. 

 

My impression is that Peter has been making himself scarce since his resurrection. It's possible the Calaveras still thought he was dead until they caught him along with Derek last season. The things I find nitpicky about the situation are them scooping Kate up and never informing Chris or Gerard that she's still alive/a murderous shapeshifting threat, and that they know so much about Lydia and Kira when those two have only recently learned about themselves.

 

Another thing I'm wondering, if an alpha's claws were enough to turn Kate despite her apparently fatal neck boo-boo, how is it that Braeden doesn't seem to be a were-creature after surviving being carved up by five alphas? Did Morell or another emissary do something magic to keep her from being infected?

Edited June 24, 2014 by Bruinsfan

[Lady Calypso]

So, I've been thinking about this young!Derek storyline for a bit now. Despite me not knowing how the hell he got turned back into a teenager (and if he has his adult memories or not...I'm guessing not), it makes me think of Kate's motivations for doing this. Is she trying to retrieve the times she had with Derek as a teenager or something? I'm not really sure of her purposes of turning Derek into a teenager. If anything, it would make more sense for her to turn Peter back into pre-fire Peter. I just don't understand and don't really have any ideas as to why. I just hope it's not for romantic reasons.

[blueray]

Hm... what if Kate had nothing to do with him being turned younger. Sure she kidnapped him, and locked him up but something else happened. Because I can't see why she would do that. Unless she's into the under 18 types (gross). 

[Lady Calypso]

Hm... what if Kate had nothing to do with him being turned younger. Sure she kidnapped him, and locked him up but something else happened. Because I can't see why she would do that. Unless she's into the under 18 types (gross). 

Hmm, that could be a possibility. We did see an earlier scene of Kate in front of that crypt with a still older Derek, right? It depends if that scene was in real time, because then Derek would have only just turned younger. But I do think Kate either did turn him younger, or had an accomplice who did. Obviously there are questions that should be answered in the next episode. 

[galax-arena]

Unless she's into the under 18 types (gross). 

This has been a large point of contention in the Teen Wolf fandom. IIRC it was implied in season 1 that Kate had a relationship with Derek when he was underage, but I am pretty sure that that wasn't Jeff Davis' intention and was simply a result of his not being able to keep his timeline and ages straight. I think at one point he admitted that he had fucked up with the ages in that he wasn't sure how long ago something had happened, and that he was surprised that so many fans had picked up on that.

 

People keep asking how old Derek was when Kate slept with him, and I don't think even Jeff Davis knows.

[bluebonnet]

Okay, not to pick on you or anything because I've seen a lot of people doing it, can we not say what Malia should or shouldn't be doing? One, she was cut off from human contact when she was 8 years old, not 1. That means that she had 8 previous years of human interaction, cues, and speech to fall back on. That means that her "rehabilitation" would not be as stunted as people keep saying it "should" be. Another important thing to note with human rehabilitation, the longer a child had social interaction before being thrust into solitude, the quicker/easier it is for them to re-learn how to be human/be around others. Malia's main problem right now is that she has very non-human instincts which they highlighted. Lastly, anyone who works in rehabilitation (I have a few friends who do or have family members that have had to go through it because of strokes and etc.) will tell you that time is all relative to the person. Meaning there is no such thing as "too fast" or "too slow". Everyone develops, or redevelops, at their own pace.

 

 

 

And even though Kira has been out and about in the world her whole life and seen other people dance, it doesn't mean she knows how to dance. Or how to dance with other people. In the Rave episode in 3B, you never once see her dancing or looking comfortable in that surrounding. Maybe she's an awkward partier...I've got one friend like that irl and we all Malia her when we go out. On top of that, Malia is in more of I "I have to blend in" mind sight than Kira is as she's been trying to "blend in" with humans for a few months at this point.

 

 

 

Ok, the super special snowflake model of human development and rehabilitation.  I have conversations with my student's parents about this nearly everyday.  Yes, snowflakes (i.e. people) are all different and unique.  In reality, the development of snowflakes is predictable and can be scientifically quantified.  There are deviations in development, but by definition, deviations are exceptions rather than the rule.  Malia's development effectively stopped at 8 years old.  An 8 year old is not at all the same as a 16-17 year old.  As with snowflakes, there are standards of development that are predictable and can be scientifically quantified.  There are also standards of rehabilitation that are based on any number of factors.  

 

But let's move away from all this because it's not actually the point that's being argued.  What's being discussed is disbelief with the character due to lack of consistency rather than disbelief with the character due to the reality of human development and rehabilitation.  TV operates in a hyper reality, sort of reality adjacent.  We expect that we will need to suspend disbelief at times, or most of the time in the case of a paranormal show like Teen Wolf.  However, to make even the most fantastical thing believable, there needs to be a sense of consistency.  In the real world, Malia's language skills would not be on par with her peers because her language development stopped at 8.  However, we can suspend disbelief with regards to her language because of the type of show it is and also because, frankly, the average person doesn't want to watch people having sex when one of them is speaking and acting like a ten year old.  

 

Consistency is important because the believability of a character within the world it exists helps create a viewer (or reader) relationship with that character and with the story in general.  Malia's development and rehabilitation need not be grounded in reality for us to believe her as a character.  It merely needs to be a consistent presentation.  They have presented her as a character who grew up in the wild in coyote form and who is stunted in typical societal interaction.  Therefore, having her present as completely aware of how to act in a crowded environment like a club is wildly inconsistent with what they've already presented and with what they show of her later in the episode.  It's creates an element of fraud with the character which damages the relationship the viewer is developing with the character.

 

As I mentioned above, the scene was specifically written and filmed in order to titillate (just watch the camera angles and focusing).  I'm not criticizing the titillation.  I watch this sort of show on this network with the knowledge and expectation that this is the sort of stuff we'll get.  I wouldn't even have a specific problem with her being able to dance in a manner she wouldn't have learned by the time she was eight.  After all, dance and rhythm are typically well ingrained in the cultural development of a child that age plus she lived in the wild as a coyote where awareness and control of her body was essential to survival.  

 

The grievance here is that Malia was directing the entire thing and showed an understanding of behavior in that environment when she shouldn't have.  And I say shouldn't not because I want to thumb my nose at the super special snowflake model, but because all other development of her as a character is telling us what she should and shouldn't be able to do.  The scene would have worked just as well if the only change was that Kira directed it.  Kira still could have been her quirky, awkward self and Malia still could have been her sultry self and the scene wouldn't have suffered or damaged her character development.  That scene would be like if Malia suddenly spoke like an eight year old for 15 seconds and then went back to speaking like her peers.  She should be able to speak like her peers because she's already be developed as a character who has the language skills of a typical 16 year old.  

 

 

Another thing I'm wondering, if an alpha's claws were enough to turn Kate despite her apparently fatal neck boo-boo, how is it that Braeden doesn't seem to be a were-creature after surviving being carved up by five alphas? Did Morell or another emissary do something magic to keep her from being infected?

Oh snap.  I didn't even remember that.  I had trouble recalling exactly how she got her neck scar.  But now that you mention it, this is sort of a glaring issue they need to address.  Maybe it's the fact that Kate died while Braeden didn't?  I could go with that.  It's simple and doesn't require contradicting much mythology.  Or even the type of Alpha Peter was is what changed Kate?  

[ElleryAnne]

I could maybe buy all of this if the scene was written a different way.  She should be awkward because she lived outside of society for her formative years.  If Malia is meant to consistently be awkward and learning how to live in society again, then she shouldn't be the one commanding the scene.  She shouldn't have been the one with perfect 2014 dance moves and rhythm or the one to intuitively know that two girls performing the sexy dance will invite their prey to them.  It should have been Kira directing it.   

 

Okay, not to pick on you or anything because I've seen a lot of people doing it, can we not say what Malia should or shouldn't be doing?

 

 

No offense, but I think that's unfair.  This thread is an episode thread.  We should be able to discuss anything about the episode in it, including what we would have expected a central character to do in any given scene regarding consistency of characterization. 

 

 

how is it that Braeden doesn't seem to be a were-creature after surviving being carved up by five alphas? Did Morell or another emissary do something magic to keep her from being infected?

 

 

I wonder if we're going to find out something about that.  The scars from the claws were prominent on her neck, as if the show wants to remind us that there's something to be explained there.

 

 

So, I've been thinking about this young!Derek storyline for a bit now. Despite me not knowing how the hell he got turned back into a teenager (and if he has his adult memories or not...I'm guessing not), it makes me think of Kate's motivations for doing this. Is she trying to retrieve the times she had with Derek as a teenager or something? I'm not really sure of her purposes of turning Derek into a teenager. If anything, it would make more sense for her to turn Peter back into pre-fire Peter. I just don't understand and don't really have any ideas as to why. I just hope it's not for romantic reasons.

 

 

If it's for romantic reasons, the ick level would hit the ceiling for me, and not mainly because of the age difference.  But I can't imagine it would be.  I have no idea what they're doing there, but I really hope they don't drag out the "young" Derek stuff for too long.  No offense to Ian Nelson, but I want my Tyler Hoechlin back.  

 

 

 

IRC it was implied in season 1 that Kate had a relationship with Derek when he was underage, but I am pretty sure that that wasn't Jeff Davis' intention and was simply a result of his not being able to keep his timeline and ages straight. I think at one point he admitted that he had fucked up with the ages in that he wasn't sure how long ago something had happened, and that he was surprised that so many fans had picked up on that.

 

 

The original story (in the show's universe) was that Derek and Laura were at school when the fire started and that's why they were alive, so that implies to a lot of people that Derek was high-school age, as compared to away at college.  It's not a proof, but it's probably where the underage idea came from.  In my mind, I always think of Derek as being about sixteen when Kate killed his family.  (I feel like there may also be a moment when Stiles mentions that Derek was about his and Scott's age when it happened, but I could be getting that from fic.)  Given how central that story is to Derek's background, it irks me that JD can't figure out how to explain his timeline about it.  And since he hasn't, I'm not sure why he thinks a de-aging story (which will probably reveal more inconsistencies there) would be a good idea.  

[greenbean]

I was not expecting that! Young Derek. I'm not fond of him, but maybe this actor will do a better job. Plus, I've always thought Derek doesn't really fit in anywhere. Too old to really be part of Scott's pack, but he doesn't seem to have an adult life. This is a good solution. It'll be interesting to see how he interacts with the pack. I just hope Jeff doesn't continue to make him and his storylines so dull.

I liked all the additions. Braedan was pretty awesome, the show picked up when she arrived. I loved when she said she'd kill Scott for the right price. Malia worked well with the pack, and I'm loving her characterisation.

 

I'm really liking the unsentimental deadpan Malia characterization.

Yeah. It's fun and I like how it plays off Stiles. Their dynamic is good.

Kira/Scott seems to have fallen flat. I thought they were cute last season, but now meh.

This show will never give up the slo-mo will it? And the way they introduce characters to a scene, can be so OTT.

[Atony]

The original story (in the show's universe) was that Derek and Laura were at school when the fire started and that's why they were alive, so that implies to a lot of people that Derek was high-school age, as compared to away at college.  It's not a proof, but it's probably where the underage idea came from.  In my mind, I always think of Derek as being about sixteen when Kate killed his family.  (I feel like there may also be a moment when Stiles mentions that Derek was about his and Scott's age when it happened, but I could be getting that from fic.)  Given how central that story is to Derek's background, it irks me that JD can't figure out how to explain his timeline about it.

 

Jeff Davis did eventually settle that the Hale Fire was 6 years before the pilot.  However Derek's age has never been officially established.  We know in the flashback we saw him at 15 that obviously the Hale Fire had not yet happened and he was not sleeping with Kate.  We know the Hale Fire happened at some point while he was in highschool though, so he was likely around 16-17 when it happened.  Kate Argent "died" in 2011 at 27/28 according to tombstone.  So presumably they were sleeping together when she was ~21-22 and Derek was 16-17.  

 

ETA: (Also it has now been about a year in Teen Wolf time since the pilot for anyone that cares).

Edited June 24, 2014 by Atony

[resonance]

. I think at one point he admitted that he had fucked up with the ages in that he wasn't sure how long ago something had happened, and that he was surprised that so many fans had picked up on that.

This doesn't surprise me a bit. If JD can't even manage to maintain Malia's consistency throughout the episode, there's no way he could handle maintaining a timeline. I wonder if JD ever even reviews his work before submitting it.

 

 

One thing I realized that bothers me about the show and why the characters feel so flat is that all the characters have such limited emotional spectrums. It's almost always I "like" this or I "hate" that without anything in between.

 

For example, when Scott's father had a heart to heart about why he left Scott as a child with Scott last season, a realistic reaction would be for Scott to open up to his father and offer some consolation even if he doesn't outright forgive him. Instead, Scott simply mildly dismisses him because his relationship mode that JD has thought up is that Scott doesn't like his father.

 

This season, I would like to see more complex interactions between the characters. Add some conflict between Kira and Scott, for example. Don't just make them like each other 100% of the time. I know it's never going to happen but that pretty much summarizes why all the characters on Teen Wolf feel so artificial.

Edited June 24, 2014 by resonance

[blueray]

I think he handled the Scott and his father thing really well. From Scott's pov his father walked out on him and his mom. That's not something that someone will get over easily. It something that will improve with time.

 

As for Kira and Scott getting along, I loved that last season. I think their relationship is being handled well actually. Scott is still grieving Alison (which is normal) and he right now only sees Kira as a friend. Kira likes Scott but she understands he in a hard place right now. They assumally will get together at some point.

[bluebonnet]

The A.V. Club review of the episode is interesting.  Ferguson's commentary about the problems with the Mexican hunters is interesting and something I completely ignored while watching in favor of squeeing over Scott wolfing out.

 

There is no one of note to tell either side of this supposed hostage situation to calm down, especially when it comes the the blatant torture of teenagers....Seriously, the majority of this episode is adults torturing youths simply because they’re not 100 percent sure that the lead youth is not a murder (and as we all know, he’s not). Teen Wolf has featured a lot of ridiculous things that require suspension of disbelief—see the majority of season three, especially the Yakuza bits—but to spend an entire episode of the show in Mexico, with someone who is technically a good guy mentally and physically torturing teenagers who are also technically on the same side as her, for no reason at all, is not a good start to the season.

 

Yeah, that torture scene takes on a different sinister view when realizing that it's good guys torturing goods guys, with one group of good guys being teenagers.  

[Bruinsfan]

I don't know what the rationale is for Derek being de-aged, but the god whose shrine he was bricked up in is associated with the jaguar and could turn into one. Maybe Kate was performing a sacrifice to either gain more control of her new condition or cure it? Whatever the case, Tezcatlipoca wasn't a warm and cuddly god so I doubt whatever is happening with Derek is going to have pleasant consequences.

[patchwork]

I want to like Malia, her speech about abandoning Lydia made me laugh but there's so many inconsistencies with her character that I'm not warming up to her. Just the thought of her in high school makes me ugh. 

 

Young Derek probably wont be with us for long but I'm interested to see where this is going. Kate is a psychotic creeper and I have suspicions about who Milia's mother really is so I'm keen to know if I'm right or not.Throw in Peter who has always felt like a storyline they've been holding back and I'm looking forward to parts of this season even if not all of it. Fingers crossed that this time they really do explore Lydia's powers. 

 

IIRC the hunter leader said the money came from the Japanese Mafia which could be a throw away explanation or a something potentially interesting.

[ElleryAnne]

The A.V. Club review of the episode is interesting.

 

 

That review brings up some things I hadn't considered.  It's somewhat depressing because it calls out a couple of things I didn't like about the episode and makes me wonder if it's less an episode choice and more a direction with the show - i.e., the lack of parents playing a role in the episode.  And I hadn't considered the implications of the lack updating Lydia's and Derek's opening credits - they're two of my favorite characters, and I've already been concerned the lack of storyline time for them in the past, and I hope the lack of updated credits for them doesn't actually indicate a lack of interest in them on JD's part.  

 

 

IIRC the hunter leader said the money came from the Japanese Mafia which could be a throw away explanation or a something potentially interesting.

 

 

She did, yes.  I'm not sure if I think that's where it will actually have come from, since

"The Benefactor" is supposedly one of the villains of the season and I wonder if somehow the money will be traced back to him - possibly after having made its way via Peter or someone else to the kids?  

 But that's the explanation so far.

[Gwen-Stacys]

Ok, the super special snowflake model of human development and rehabilitation.  I have conversations with my student's parents about this nearly everyday.  Yes, snowflakes (i.e. people) are all different and unique.  In reality, the development of snowflakes is predictable and can be scientifically quantified.  There are deviations in development, but by definition, deviations are exceptions rather than the rule.  Malia's development effectively stopped at 8 years old.  An 8 year old is not at all the same as a 16-17 year old.  As with snowflakes, there are standards of development that are predictable and can be scientifically quantified.  There are also standards of rehabilitation that are based on any number of factors.  

 

But let's move away from all this because it's not actually the point that's being argued.  What's being discussed is disbelief with the character due to lack of consistency rather than disbelief with the character due to the reality of human development and rehabilitation.  TV operates in a hyper reality, sort of reality adjacent.  We expect that we will need to suspend disbelief at times, or most of the time in the case of a paranormal show like Teen Wolf.  However, to make even the most fantastical thing believable, there needs to be a sense of consistency.  In the real world, Malia's language skills would not be on par with her peers because her language development stopped at 8.  However, we can suspend disbelief with regards to her language because of the type of show it is and also because, frankly, the average person doesn't want to watch people having sex when one of them is speaking and acting like a ten year old.    

Oh I know. I'm not an expert at anything (and hope I didn't imply that by my comment), but I have experience with it. And it's not the exact same progression or case as Malia, I understand. I was just saying that everyone is different (special snowflake) so the time it takes for them to do or not do certain things depends heavily on the individual and their mental state. Now, do I thin Jeff and co did any substantial research on feral children? No, not at all. But this is a supernatural show about teen werewolfes/coyotes/banshes/kitsunes/mermaides/sprites/fairies/dragons/fire angels/mummies/etc. Basic rules aren't going to apply to them, especially given that we still don't understand how born!weres grow/age/develope and it's even been alluded to that it's different from the human process of growing. Maybe mentally they naturally mature faster thant humans? We don't know.

 

Oh, I don't disagree with you at all about character consistancy, but Jeff and Co have never been known for being consistant (See: the Braeden/Kate clawed discussion). I do, however, enjoy the way they're choosing to take Malia's characterization this season (emphasize this season).

No offense, but I think that's unfair.  This thread is an episode thread.  We should be able to discuss anything about the episode in it, including what we would have expected a central character to do in any given scene regarding consistency of characterization.   

I'm very sorry that you took offense to what I said and from now on I promise to be very careful when responding to you. I really wasn't trying to be offensive and I'm sorry if that's the way I came off to you.

[Atony]

I found the AV Club review unnecessarily harsh, a D+?  This is "Teen Wolf" not "Breaking Bad" and this was in no way a D+ episode of Teen Wolf.

 

The parents (except for Lydia's I suppose) are well informed about the supernatural and that their kids are deeply involved in the fight against the supernatural.  The kids are now older both age wise and in terms of experience, it makes sense to see them grow as heroes and that they would be doing a trip like this to rescue one of their own.  And I don't see the parents being written out at all.  The parental involvement of Teen Wolf has actually INCREASED every season so that is a silly complaint, that they missed one episode means nothing.  TV shows like "Game of Thrones" most famously are consistently showing how you can service the ensemble better by not trying to shoe-horn in every character every episode.

 

That there was torture of teenagers?  Is that supposed to cross some line?  Scott is an alpha-werewolf, a powerful and dangerous figure in this mythology (not to mention someone who can't really be harmed).  It seems silly to think a family of hunters (and I very much hesitate to call hunters "good guys" see most of the Argents) are going to treat him with kid gloves.

 

I thought that review was well written and an impressive amount of thought went into it, I just personally don't think most of the complaints are that valid.  Especially to justify such a low rating.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Atony

[Helena Dax]

I liked the relationship between Stiles and Malia, it made me laugh several times. They make a nice couple. And I'm curious about teen Derek. But I think I like this show better when they're in Beacon Hills. 

[AudienceofOne]

First impression: that kind of sucked. Does anyone know why Alison [wanted to leave/ was written out of] the show. Because I can't believe we lost an amazing, strong non-supernatural female character and got Malia in her place. She's been a coyote since she was 9 and was then in a mental institution and now we're supposed to believe she's totally at home dancing in a rave and is even giving Kira 'having fun at a party' advice. Give me a break. Her relationship with Stiles is forced and lacking in chemistry. She's just suddenly there in a relationship with one of the leads. It's so unearned. Not that I think she wouldn't have made an interesting addition to the pack. But not in this way.

 

They have presented her as a character who grew up in the wild in coyote form and who is stunted in typical societal interaction.  Therefore, having her present as completely aware of how to act in a crowded environment like a club is wildly inconsistent with what they've already presented and with what they show of her later in the episode.  It's creates an element of fraud with the character which damages the relationship the viewer is developing with the character.

 

Well put. When that scene started, my reaction was, "Oh, obligatory lesbian titillation. YAWN," but it was quickly followed by, "As IF."

 

Second major gripe - they're going up against a set of experienced badass Hunters and they don't bring along Argent (or at least drop some dialogue that he's left town or something out of grief - anything to explain why he wasn't there).  Surely this should have been all hands on deck?

 

I'm extremely disappointed because, while I've never thought this was the best show on TV, I've always enjoyed it. But I thought that was tedious, boring and contrived.

Edited June 24, 2014 by AudienceofOne

[bettername2come]

I'm hoping the presence of teen Derek means we can get more insight into the Hale family. I swear I would watch a Teen Wolf prequel series about that family.

 

One thing Mama Calaveras said had me thinking - if they say they'll kill Scott if he turns an innocent, should they kill Derek? Or does that only refer to turning someone without permission? Because they look like they're just bluffing at this point. Derek's alive, Peter's alive. It's not making them look so badass. 

 

My favorite part of the episode though was Scott picking up one of the hunters' walkie-talkies and telling Stiles to take back $10,000.

[Isabelle]

This premiere was good for the most part. The show is always entertaining when Scott and the gang are working together. I did miss the adults though. I would have enjoyed at least a quick father/son chat over the phone with Stiles and Sheriff Stilinski.

 

 

Anyhow, the episode was definitely exciting. It was great to have the real Stiles back. And the pack's interactions were good. I surprisingly didn't mind Mila as much as I thought I would. She kind of Jessi from Kyle XY for some reason, which isn't a bad thing.

 

She reminded me of Jessi, also!  I miss Kyle XY. Jessi was handled way better than Malia. Shelley Hennig is trying but the writing in this show is not doing her any favors.

 

I was actually shocked by the reveal of Teen!Derek. I can't wait to find out how it happened.

 

Also, Braeden's intro in the episode was awesome. 

Edited June 24, 2014 by Isabelle

[ElleryAnne]

Does anyone know why Alison [wanted to leave/ was written out of] the show. Because I can't believe we lost an amazing, strong non-supernatural female character and got Malia in her place.

 

 

I've heard that Crystal Reed (Allison) wanted to leave because she didn't want to still be playing a 17 year old.  Malia's a poor swap so far.  Not that she doesn't have potential, but she's a far cry from what she could be, or from what Allison brought to the show.

 

 

My favorite part of the episode though was Scott picking up one of the hunters' walkie-talkies and telling Stiles to take back $10,000.

 

 

Aw, yeah.  I forgot about that part.  That really was a good moment.

[Minneapple]

The episode was...okay. I don't mind Malia. I like her dynamic with Stiles and I enjoy Shelley Henning. However, the dancing with Kira was groanworthy because it was like Jeff Davis screaming "LOOK AT THE LESYAY, PEOPLE! ISN'T THAT HOT? TWO GIRLS DANCING TOGETHER!"

 

I do enjoy the teenagers working together, though. I think that the show is always stronger when it focuses on that.

 

The reveal of Young Derek was honestly a shock to me.

 

My favorite part was when Stiles told Scott to go after the Jeep broke down and Scott told Stiles he wasn't leaving without him. Still loving the brotherly love!

 

which really started last season when they randomly slept together for no good reason at all

 

They didn't sleep together. It was ambiguous and Dylan confirmed that they didn't sleep together. Although I'm pretty sure he also said that he was the one who convinced Jeff Davis to not have them sleep together. Maybe Dylan should be running this show.

 

The A.V. Club review of the episode is interesting.

 

Yeah. Honestly the torture was way way over the top. And there seemed to be little point to it. Or maybe it was just to have TPose all sweaty and screamy in a tank top. I enjoy TPose sweaty and screamy in a tank top, but I'm pretty sure there are other ways to go about doing it. And after it's all over, the Cavaleras lady is all, "Well now we're BFFs until you bite somebody!" Just weird.

[Chaos Theory]

I like this show for exactly what it is.  TV light entertainment.  I don't need it to be anything else.  I like all the main characters especially Stiles and I am happy he has finally got a girl who actually likes him and won't leave him.  (I loved that scene.)  

 

Now that the Argents are all but decimated I guess we have the Calaveras who are more strict with the law,  Maybe that is why they survive and the Argents got killed off one after another.  They seem like they are going to be a worthy and scary human enemy.

 

I liked Kate and was sad when she left and now I am looking forward to seeing more of her.

 

I honestly like this show because there is a bunch of teenagers working together.  There are not too many scooby gang shows out there that are actually worth watching and this is fun if you don't mind light entertainment and don't expect much.  Plus give me something to do during the summer.  So aces!

 

I've heard that Crystal Reed (Allison) wanted to leave because she didn't want to still be playing a 17 year old.  Malia's a poor swap so far.  Not that she doesn't have potential, but she's a far cry from what she could be, or from what Allison brought to the show.

 

 

I actually got bored of the nonstop Scott/Allison ride so I am looking forward to what the new girl brings.  There was only so much Malia could do while Alison was still in the picture.  Now that she is gone it leaves room for the character to grow.   I am giving her time before I make a judgement call.   

 

. 

Edited June 24, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[ElleryAnne]

I actually got bored of the nonstop Scott/Allison ride so I am looking forward to what the new girl brings.  There was only so much Malia could do while Alison was still in the picture.  Now that she is gone it leaves room for the character to grow.

 

 

I can see that applying more to Kira than to Malia.  I do like Kira, both as a possible LI for Scott and as a part of the pack.