Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[Mathius]

I did a google search, and I'm guessing you're talking about the "Father of the Bride" unaired scene during 3B.

3A finale, actually. Henry sr's actor was actually still credited in the press release for "Going Home", so it was probably written up before the scene was cut from the episode.

[Zuleikha]

Leopold meets the genie and is given three wishes. His first wish is that everyone who steps foot in his kingdom be happy. This wish, incidentally, would include his wife Regina. His second wish is to give the genie his freedom. These are not the actions of a horrible person. These are the actions of a benevolent ruler who wishes happiness for all.

He doesn't wish that everyone who steps foot in his kingdom be happy. He says it's a desire, but his first wish is to free the genie and his second wish is to give his third wish to the genie. ("King Leopold: Then I know my first wish. I wish you to be free." "King Leopold: For my second wish... I wish to give my third and final wish to you.")

 

And his wishes (even corrected) are not the actions of a horrible person. But the person who violated his wife's privacy by reading her diary, who described her as betraying him just because she felt happy mildly flirting with someone, who set the Genie to spy on her, who publicly described Snow White's mother as the fairest of the land in front of Regina even when he later admits that he knows she's unhappy he's still in love with his dead wife, IMHO, those are not the actions of a good person. They're the actions of someone who is thoughtless and entitled.

 

Also, all Regina said to Snow (in response to the idea that Leopold would understand) was "Perhaps, but not everyone will. My mother for one, she'll—stand in the way." That's not a "yes, he will" or an "I know he will but there are other issues." It is ridiculous to conclude from Regina saying perhaps Leopold would understand to claiming that Regina either could have gone to Leopold and asked for asylum and a good life for her and Daniel (we have no idea!) or that Regina would have believed she could (very unlikely since her next sentence contradicts that).

 

 

 

However, she was spouting off about freedom before she ever got married.

I don't understand your point here. Regina talked about freedom prior to the marriage because she wasn't free and she wanted to be. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by Zuleikha

[Serena]

I haven't watched Regina deleted scenes or anything, but what I remember from the show is that in the episode where Regina sends Cora through the mirror, after Cora is gone, she gets on her horse and starts to run away to her freedom. Rumple appears and offers to train her or whatever if she remains, and convinces her that marrying Leopold would gain her power. So she remains. Did she regret that choice after? Maybe, maybe not. She was miserable in her marriage, but Regina's personality and evolution at that point was such that she would have been miserable anywhere. For example, the reason the show gives for why she didn't meet Robin in the tavern was that she was afraid of letting go of her revenge, not because she was afraid Leopold would do something awful.

 

Now of course, not meeting Robin probably saved his life. I'm pretty sure if she had, Rumple would have killed him and framed Snow for it.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Rumple appears and offers to train her or whatever if she remains, and convinces her that marrying Leopold would gain her power. So she remains.

IIRC, Rumple just offered to teach her magic. It had nothing to do with her staying or marrying Leopold. That didn't come up in the conversation. However, I think it was implied that he slowly manipulated her into wanting power and being Queen. Still, I would have liked to see the scene with Regina actually choosing to marry Leopold to make it clear her situation was her own choice, not simply because Rumple or Cora forced her into it.

 

 

Now of course, not meeting Robin probably saved his life. I'm pretty sure if she had, Rumple would have killed him and framed Snow for it.

Knowing Rumple's manipulations in The Doctor and Enter the Dragon, where Regina had a hissy fit and wanted to stop lessons, he probably rigged the whole tavern encounter. I doubt he would have let Regina even get the opportunity for distraction if it wasn't part of a trick to teach her that revenge was better.

Edited April 8, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Zuleikha]

Here's the "We are Both" Rumple/Regina scene from the transcript: 

 

Rumplestiltskin: Leaving, are we?

Regina: That was always the plan. Here. A gift. I don't want it.
Rumplestiltskin: Uh, can't be a gift. It was mine to start with. Before you go... Answer me this... How did it feel?
Regina: I love my mother.
Rumplestiltskin: That's not what I asked, dearie. How did it feel to use magic?
Regina: It doesn't matter. I'll never use it again.
Rumplestiltskin: Why not?
Regina: Because I loved it.
Rumplestiltskin: (Giggles) You've discovered who you are. You could do so much now... (Singsongy) If you let me show you how.
Regina: Through magic.
Rumplestiltskin: Through many things.
Regina: And what do you get out of it?
Rumplestiltskin: Someday... You'll do something for me. Let me guide you.
Regina: (Sniffles) And I won't become like her?
Rumplestiltskin: That, dearie... is entirely up... to you.

 

That last line is such classic Rumple misdirection... say something true on the face but leave out the part where he will lie, misdirect, and withhold knowledge for the purpose of driving her as dark and evil as he can get her.

 

Still, I would have liked to see the scene with Regina actually choosing to marry Leopold to make it clear her situation was her own choice, not simply because Rumple or Cora forced her into it.

Are you talking about a hypothetical scene for a version of the story that you would like to have seen? Or about an actual scene that was filmed? (As I wrote above, the Going Home unaired deleted scene absolutely does not show Regina choosing to marry Leopold.)

[Crimson Belle]

The actual version that was aired showed clearly she chose to marry him.  She was going to leave.  Cora stopped her, not Leopold.  When she pushed Cora through the mirror, she still planned to leave.  Then she chose not to leave of her own volition, which means she chose to go through with the wedding of her own free will.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Then she chose not to leave of her own volition, which means she chose to go through with the wedding of her own free will.

It implied what's in bold, it did not show it. The scene did not show her choosing to stay or marry Leopold onscreen. All it showed was her accepting magic lessons from Rumple. That's it.

 

 

Are you talking about a hypothetical scene for a version of the story that you would like to have seen? Or about an actual scene that was filmed? (As I wrote above, the Going Home unaired deleted scene absolutely does not show Regina choosing to marry Leopold.)

I believe that scene could have occurred before Cora was sent through the mirror and immediately after the events of The Stable Boy. So yes, I'm talking about a hypothetical scene.

Edited April 8, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Or they're like the sizable chunk of the audience who think Regina gets called out on her flaws just plenty, and so there is no problem that needs to be solved.

 

While I agree that Regina has been called out on her flaws here and there (thanks, Marco, Cruella, and Ursula!), I'm still waiting for the biggest elephants in the room to finally get addressed. Some people's elephants might be different than mine, but my personal elephant that needs to be addressed on screen is Graham. I know it was all the way back in Season 1, and he was only in half the season, but the fact that Emma still doesn't know about the true nature of his death will leave a bad taste in my mouth until it's finally brought up. It's what makes this new friendship between Regina and Emma seem a bit disingenuous because Regina is still holding that secret back from Emma. If Snow and Charming had to come clean about the retconned egg baby plot, it only seems fair that Regina should come clean about that. And there was even the perfect opportunity for it to come up in 4A when Emma kept mentioning Graham's name, said that he was one of the reasons why she's still scared about jumping into a new relationship, and there was even the irony that Regina was yelling at Emma for ruining her budding relationship when Regina did the exact same thing to Emma with Graham. But the writers completely missed that opportunity and I doubt they'll ever close that loose thread before the series is done. 

Edited April 10, 2015 by Curio

[Serena]

She doesn't even get called out for the things she did this season, i.e. being a complete bitch to Emma in 405, or having a frickin' slave locked up in a mental institution. Even Lana basically admitted she was unbearable in that episode, and the narrative lets it slide like nothing?

[Rumsy4]

Regina's memory-wipe of Henry in Season 2 could have been addressed with all the multiple memory-spells happening in 4A with the Frozen arc. Or even had Henry remember that incident when Regina TLKed him in 3B. With the safety blanket provided by the True Love's kiss, the show could have explored the relationship between Regina and Henry as they both struggled to work through that issue. 

[Dani-Ellie]

Then there's the whole thing with Marian. The fact that Regina locked up Marian was never addressed at all, aside from a bit of Marian not trusting her (as well she shouldn't!). But Regina's role in it didn't cause any issues between Robin and Regina; in fact, Robin didn't seem to blink twice! So Regina splits up a family in the past and when it should come back to bite her in the ass, it's nothing doing?

 

The narrative has a tendency to be Regina-blind, in that she can do whatever she wants and the most she has to pay for it is a snarky insult or two directed her way. Adam and Eddy remind us all the time that Regina did awful, awful things during her reign as the Evil Queen, but when it comes to the narrative, those awful, awful things don't seem to have a lot of consequences that negatively affect Regina the way the consequences of other characters' actions come back to haunt them.

[Camera One]

Adam and Eddy remind us all the time that Regina did awful, awful things during her reign as the Evil Queen, but when it comes to the narrative, those awful, awful things don't seem to have a lot of consequences that negatively affect Regina the way the consequences of other characters' actions come back to haunt them.

 

As Henry, Emma, etc. etc. have said to Regina, all that doesn't matter... you're not that person anymore.  Unlike those despicable Egg Thieves, who will need to be hung out to dry for who knows how long.

[Shanna Marie]

The big issue is that if Regina were called out on her flaws and her bad deeds in proportion to their scope, and in proportion to the way other characters are called out on or face consequences for their bad deeds, it would change the dynamics of the show entirely.

 

Regina arranged the murder of Snow's father, kicked Snow out of her own home, tried to murder her repeatedly, cursed her so that she lived a miserable life for 28 years and when she was reunited with her husband, her husband was made to live in a fake marriage with someone else, and this curse led to Snow not getting to see her daughter grow up. How do you reasonably respond to that, other than "Die, bitch, die!"? And yet the show plays it as that terrible, mean Snow if she so much as snarks at Regina, and she only gets to do that when she's under a spell. She's more likely to be groveling or be supportive of Regina, reassuring her that the things she's doing aren't bad at all.

 

Because of Regina's curse, Emma grew up alone and in foster care. Then she saw Regina emotionally abusing her son, had to fight to keep her best friend (who she didn't realize was her mother) from getting railroaded for a crime she didn't commit when Regina framed her, and only escaped being sort of murdered (since that's what it would have looked like) by Regina when her son intervened and was nearly killed by the poison Regina intended for her. Then later she watched Regina burn her mother at the stake after escaping from Regina's dungeon. And that's not counting all the spite and snark thrown at her and the things she doesn't know about, like Graham. An appropriate calling out or consequences there would be making good and sure that Regina never got anywhere near Henry, ever again. She definitely shouldn't even be trying to be friends with her.

 

Then there are all the other people who were cursed and tormented, imprisoned by her in the Enchanted Forest or in Storybrooke. Goodness knows how many lost friends or loved ones in her slaughter-fests or her dungeons or were separated by her whims, like Hansel and Gretel and their father, Jefferson and his daughter, Robin and Marian. There's that vault of hearts. No one seems to have suggested she look into seeing if she can return them. She should be able to just whisper "come to me" over a heart to determine the owner.

 

These are some remarkably good people for being as supportive as they are in trying to help Regina turn her life around. I'm not saying they should constantly berate her and belittle her (though it's funny how she gets to do that to her victims) or that she should spend her life groveling, but a few snarky remarks from her former victims is nowhere near being called out on her flaws or facing the consequences for her actions.

[Zuleikha]

Season 2 and season 3 both dealt with how Storybrooke and the Charmings were going to accept/not accept Regina and whether Regina could or would change. Most of the things people want to see dealt with were either implicitly or explicitly dealt with as part of that.  While I know most people here didn't find it satisfactory, a lot of people in fandom did. Regina is a really popular character for a reason. So yes, the writers could redo it to try and satisfy the faction of fandom that wants something different, but from a narrative development perspective that would be a bad choice. You don't re-tell the same story.

 

Also, it seems like what most anti-Regina people want is for Regina to be ostracized, sent to jail, or written off the show, and none of those are reasonable expectations. It would be like me getting pissy because that Emma hasn't been written off just because I think her character doesn't work as a lead and stopped adding anything to the show after she broke the curse in s1. Sure, I really do think that (although I don't dislike Emma or anything; I just think the show would work better structurally with Snow or Regina as lead), but it's not going to happen because that's obviously not the story A&E are interested in telling and Emma is a popular character in fandom. 

 

I also don't see any other characters getting called out on their bad deeds in proportion to their scope, except maybe Snow. Hook's never had to make amends for his pirate violence, either in the past or the Missing Year. He's just had to make Emma feel confident that he's different now; same as Regina. Rumple's never had to make amends for his many acts of violence and terrorizing. He was accepted by the Charmings immediately in s2--even though he is every bit as responsible as Regina for the Dark Curse and arguably more so. While Rumple did arguably change in s3, his acceptance predated his demonstrating that he changed and his actual changing. He did FINALLY face consequences from Belle, but that was only after it was impossible for her to deny that he hadn't changed at all. It was in response to his present day actions, not his past ones. And everyone except Rumple was willing to give Zelena a chance to change even though she didn't even want one; it was just in the hope that with time and without her necklace that she would grow to want one. 

 

Heck, even Emma could make amends and use her bail bondswoman skills to track down the owner of the car she stole and give it back, but she's never tried to make amends for her thieving years. She's just changed and moved on and still drives her stolen vehicle.

 

Regina is treated the same as everyone else, not differently. Villains are accepted back into non-villainous society as long as they are either useful or demonstrate they've changed or both. Regina's demonstrated she's changed and she's certainly useful. 

[Mari]

Season 2 and season 3 both dealt with how Storybrooke and the Charmings were going to accept/not accept Regina and whether Regina could or would change. Most of the things people want to see dealt with were either implicitly or explicitly dealt with as part of that.  While I know most people here didn't find it satisfactory, a lot of people in fandom did. Regina is a really popular character for a reason. So yes, the writers could redo it to try and satisfy the faction of fandom that wants something different, but from a narrative development perspective that would be a bad choice. You don't re-tell the same story.

 

Also, it seems like what most anti-Regina people want is for Regina to be ostracized, sent to jail, or written off the show, and none of those are reasonable expectations. 

 

Regina is treated the same as everyone else, not differently. Villains are accepted back into non-villainous society as long as they are either useful or demonstrate they've changed or both. Regina's demonstrated she's changed and she's certainly useful. 

 

Rumple's an unapologetic villain. 

 

Hook's a reforming villain--but he's not trusted (see comments by David) and he has made attempts to make amends or improve the lives of people he damaged. (see returning to help find Henry, and trying to dehat the fairies)

 

Regina's done some helpful things, but many of them were just as beneficial to herself as to others.  She's apologized only to people who she wants something from (Henry, Belle, Gepetto).  She's still apparently got a crypt of evil, and was blaming Emma for "ruining her life" simply because Emma stopped Regina from murdering someone. Regina can't even bring herself openly forgive Snow for Cora's death--"It's complicated." isn't exactly an "I understand and can certainly forgive you considering how much I've wronged your family, myself."

 

I can't speak for all the Regina anti-fans, but an apology or two, along with an acknowledgement or two that she was wrong would go a long way.  Maybe an attempt to make some amends--perhaps return a heart or two from the Crypt.

 

It would also go a long way if the show stopped spending a disproportionate amount of time and framing on things that make Regina and many of her fans feel like Regina's pain is worse than all the pain that ever pained.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Mari

[Camera One]

While I know most people here didn't find it satisfactory, a lot of people in fandom did. Regina is a really popular character for a reason. So yes, the writers could redo it to try and satisfy the faction of fandom that wants something different, but from a narrative development perspective that would be a bad choice.

 

To me, being critical of the writing for Regina is different from a "Regina anti-fan".  I personally do enjoy Regina from time to time, but I just hated how they made her murder a village or kill an innocent like Owen's dad, and then smirk about it.  Or have her constantly harp to Snow about how she murdered Cora, yet never apologize for arranging the death of her father.  You can't have a character retain that type of "who cares" attitude, and claim it's a redemption story.  To me, it's  horrible narrative development, plain and simple.  It's making me not like a character that I actually did find interesting in Season 1.  I certainly don't want her written off the show.  I want better writing for her, as well as better writing for everyone else, in particular characters like Henry, Snow and Robin (and more recently Emma) who have been made into robots proclaiming that Regina had changed, while the writers don't actually give her meaty transformative changes that we viewers can cheer on.

[Zuleikha]

I can't speak for all the Regina anti-fans, but an apology or two, along with an acknowledgement or two that she was wrong would go a long way.

Except she's done both of those things. She's apologized to various people. She's called herself a villain. She's acknowledged that she chose evil and she made bad choices. 

 

Hook's a reforming villain--but he's not trusted (see comments by David) and he has made attempts to make amends or improve the lives of people he damaged. (see returning to help find Henry, and trying to dehat the fairies)

David treats Hook exactly the way he treats Regina. He snarks on both of them on occasion and he gets nervous if he thinks they may be relapsing, but in general, he treats them as allies (with a little extra prickliness for Hook, but that's about Hook dating Emma).

Hook has made amends for a small amount of specific acts. He hasn't made amends to anyone affected during his general piracy (or his brigand ways during the Missing Year), and he only made amends with Ursula when he needed something from her, too. 

 

while the writers don't actually give her meaty transformative changes that we viewers can cheer on.

She sacrificed herself for the Enchanted Forest at the end of 2B and only lived because of deus ex Emma. She went from trying to kill Emma to trying to teach Emma how to control her magic. She broke her curse AND gave Emma/Henry happy memories of a life shared together. She worked with Snow/Charming in the missing year to help figure out how to stop Zelena. She refused to kill Zelena or let Rumple kill Zelena, and she gave Belle Rumple's dagger instead of keeping it. She saved Marian's life twice and then sacrificed her future with Robin for Marian and Roland. If that is not enough, I really don't think anything the writers could write would be.

 

That's what I mean when I say that I understand her redemption arc is not satisfying for everyone, but it is frustrating to not get the same acknowledgement that the reason why the writers aren't writing more of it is because they've already written a lot of actions for Regina to demonstrate her changing and a lot of people are happy with it. The writers took Regina on a journey to where she believably could be trusted with Marian's heart!

[Dani-Ellie]

That's what I mean when I say that I understand her redemption arc is not satisfying for everyone, but it is frustrating to not get the same acknowledgement that the reason why the writers aren't writing more of it is because they've already written a lot of actions for Regina to demonstrate her changing and a lot of people are happy with it. The writers took Regina on a journey to where she believably could be trusted with Marian's heart!

 

My issue with the writing of Regina's redemption arc is that the writers seem to want to have it both ways. They want Regina to be someone you can root for but they also want her to be the despicable Evil Queen. So yes, they do write her making progress on her redemption track but then she suffers a blow and it's not a reasonable backslide, it's a complete reversal. And yes, they do have her making progress again after that reversal but at this point, I can't trust how permanent this new progress is. Maybe it is permanent but the next blow she suffers, maybe it'll all be gone again. So for me, it's not so much that Regina hasn't made the proper progress, it's that she makes the proper progress but the second anything threatens that progress, it's oops, take-backsies.

 

It also doesn't help, as far as I'm concerned, that we've seen so. much. of what she'd done as the Evil Queen. We've seen a field of bodies from a village massacre and the pile of bones from the children she sent to their death and a cold-hearted murder of a king and driving the true heir to the throne out of her home, along with all the times she attempted to take Snow's life. We saw her gleefully mocking and laughing at Marian's pleas for help and mercy, we saw her send her guards in to kill baby Emma, we saw her kill her own father in the name of vengeance, we saw her keeping Belle and Sidney prisoner, we saw her gaslighting her own son, we saw her intentionally allow Henry to overhear Emma say something that would hurt him solely to win a point over Emma, and we saw taking Graham's heart, keeping him her puppet for 30-ish years, and then killing him. (And that's just off the top of my head!)

 

That's an awful lot to make up for, and no, the constant pendulum swing of a redemption arc they've written isn't enough for me because I don't feel like she has any idea just how far-reaching her damage was. ("Can we drop the e-word?" Well, maybe if you hadn't just been plotting to kill a woman like two months ago, Regina, they could.)

[october]

Hook has made amends for a small amount of specific acts. He hasn't made amends to anyone affected during his general piracy (or his brigand ways during the Missing Year), and he only made amends with Ursula when he needed something from her, too.

The difference is that Hook is now a world away from the seas he and his crew plundered. Also, we have few details about what he did exactly during those years outside of running away with Milah and doing a cake run for Peter Pan. I do think it's very likely that ordinary people were caught in the crossfire of Hook's piracy and that he and his crew hurt innocents, but without details we can only speculate. When we do find out about Hook's past misdeeds (such as killing Blackbeard or stealing Ursula's singing voice) it's during an episode where he tries to make amends for that crime. His actions aren't simply mentioned then dropped with little or no pay-off.

 

Regina on the other hand is living a few doors away from the people whose lives she has turned upside down and (in some cases) whose loved ones she killed or locked away. We know exactly what she's done and to whom and when. We have her receipts and the writers just keep adding to the pile, with Marian and Sidney and with reminders about the villagers she slaughtered. The scope of her crimes and her proximity to the people she's wronged are quite different to Hook's past and present situation. Hook's redemption arc isn't flawless, but it works for him because of his backstory, the nature of his crimes, his motivations and how they're brought up in the story. But Regina's villainy is so extreme and at times so bizarre (such as killing Owen's dad) that I find her current arc frustrating to watch.

 

 

Also, it seems like what most anti-Regina people want is for Regina to be ostracized, sent to jail, or written off the show, and none of those are reasonable expectations.

I'm not anti-Regina, but she's a murderer, a sex offender and a kidnapper. I think people should be jailed or otherwise severely punished for committing crimes like that and I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation. If you mean unreasonable because the show would (logistically) have a hard time shoving Regina in a cell for the rest of the run of the show then I understand and agree.

 

Then again there were ways around that. For example, post season 2 Regina could've thrown herself on the mercy of the townspeople and ended up banished to a realm for a half-season where time moves differently than in Storybrook and where she's made to pay for her crimes. She could serve a sentence or pay a penance there that feels like decades for her but for the people of Storybrook it'll seem like she was only gone for a few weeks (like when Dean Winchester is sent to Hell at the end of season 3 of Supernatural). That way she could serve a sentence without aging and without missing out on Henry's life (a mercy Snow and Charming never got). She could have adventures of her own there that end up being connected to what's going on in Storybrook somehow.

 

I'm not saying this is a perfect scenario seeing as it would've separated her from the rest of the main characters for a few episodes (though maybe that would've been a good thing in the long run and given them all a fresh start). It's a little late in the series for a storyline like this now so I'm not offering this as a solution but as an example of what could've been done. With a show where magic can do almost anything the writers have some flexibility when it comes to dealing with Regina's story and punishment.

 

   

She sacrificed herself for the Enchanted Forest at the end of 2B and only lived because of deus ex Emma. She went from trying to kill Emma to trying to teach Emma how to control her magic. She broke her curse AND gave Emma/Henry happy memories of a life shared together. She worked with Snow/Charming in the missing year to help figure out how to stop Zelena. She refused to kill Zelena or let Rumple kill Zelena, and she gave Belle Rumple's dagger instead of keeping it. She saved Marian's life twice and then sacrificed her future with Robin for Marian and Roland. If that is not enough, I really don't think anything the writers could write would be.

I respect that you feel strongly about this, but personally I don't think this is enough. Some of it is even underwhelming the more I think about it. She tried to stop the failsafe in 2B, but wasn't she the one who created it? And her plan a couple of episodes prior to that had been to kill everyone and take Henry. She helped stop Zelena, but Zelena was targetting her too so it's not as if Regina could've walked away.

 

I do think Regina has changed for the better, but considering what she was to begin with that's not saying much. Her not trying to kill people now doesn't make up for the lives she's already taken. All it means is that she's reached the basic level of human decency and law abiding behaviour.

 

Her past crimes are so large in scope while her better acts by contrast are relatively contained within a small group of people immediately connected with her (like Henry). Sure the curse and Zelena affected everyone in town too, but the townsfolk may as well be extras now for how little they matter in the narrative. Maybe that's the problem for me. On the one hand the show gives us details of the families Regina has broken up and the villages she's had wiped out. But then it's all 'Hey, she tolerates her son's birth mother now instead of trying to kill her. She really has changed!' I just find that unsatisfying. I think she needs to do more than be 'called out' and behave herself while other people are watching. Call outs are for people who say gross things on Tumblr, not for murderers.

 

Regina's redemption arc is so focused on her feelings, her grief and her relationships that the people she's hurt often get eclipsed entirely. It reminds me of real life examples I've read about where a community tries to rehabilitate an abuser but they're so focused on the abuser's emotional journey and how bad they feel that their actual victims get slowly pushed out of the picture. Look at the way Marian was used as a plot device and literally put on ice so the show could waste time on crypt sex. And Robin was never even given room to be angry about finding out how his wife was killed and by whom. Regina's main character status doesn't mean her story has to be written in such an insular way. If anything I think it's to her detriment as well.

 

How do the people of Storybrook feel about being back in the town? Do any of them want to return to the enchanted forest or leave the town and visit other places? Did any of them have friends and family who were outside the original curse and who are now thirty years older or lost to them entirely? How do they feel about Regina living in that big house while they live in the homes and do the jobs her curse chose for them? How do they feel about Regina still being in a position to help make choices about their town, such as letting the Queens of Darkness in? We don't really know.

 

I think justice needs to focus on those who were hurt rather than just those who did the hurting. But Regina's arc centres her, not her victims, which IMO coddles her self-centredness and is counter productive to her character development.

Edited April 11, 2015 by october

[Mari]

I do think Regina has changed for the better, but considering what she was to begin with that's not saying much. Her not trying to kill people now doesn't make up for the lives she's already taken. All it means is that she's reached the basic level of human decency and law abiding behaviour.

 

Her past crimes are so large in scope while her better acts by contrast are relatively contained within a small group of people immediately connected with her (like Henry).

 . . .

 But Regina's arc centres her, not her victims, which IMO coddles her self-centredness and is counter productive to her character development.

Yes.  Yes to your whole post.

 

If I can, though, I'd like to add something:

 

By Regina's own admission, any expression of remorse and regret before the middle of season 3 were lies and manipulation.

 

When she apologized to Henry in season 2, she was either lying or manipulating--because by her own admission at the Tree of Regret, she doesn't care that she hurt people.  She cares that she gets what she wants.  So that apology was a lie--she didn't care she hurt Henry, she cared she didn't have her Henry shaped action figure.

 

By doing that, the show made every single apology and expression of regret from that point on suspicious.  You can't trust them, because she was insincere when she apologized to her own child for abusing him.

 

Now, she might actually feel regret now.  But the show has done very little to demonstrate she cares about any damage to other people, as long as she gets what she wants, and a great deal to demonstrate to she doesn't notice, care, or recognize that other people feel hurt, too.

 

  Because they made it canon that she doesn't feel regret, there's a higher bar for her to cross if we're supposed think she actually, really, truly means it this time, and isn't just playing tricks and manipulating.

[Mathius]

Yes.  Yes to your whole post.

 

If I can, though, I'd like to add something:

 

By Regina's own admission, any expression of remorse and regret before the middle of season 3 were lies and manipulation.

 

When she apologized to Henry in season 2, she was either lying or manipulating--because by her own admission at the Tree of Regret, she doesn't care that she hurt people.  She cares that she gets what she wants.  So that apology was a lie--she didn't care she hurt Henry, she cared she didn't have her Henry shaped action figure.

 

By doing that, the show made every single apology and expression of regret from that point on suspicious.  You can't trust them, because she was insincere when she apologized to her own child for abusing him.

 

Now, she might actually feel regret now.  But the show has done very little to demonstrate she cares about any damage to other people, as long as she gets what she wants, and a great deal to demonstrate to she doesn't notice, care, or recognize that other people feel hurt, too.

 

  Because they made it canon that she doesn't feel regret, there's a higher bar for her to cross if we're supposed think she actually, really, truly means it this time, and isn't just playing tricks and manipulating.

OK, I actually have to object here: it was NOT canon that she didn't feel regret, that is just an unfortunate widespread misinterpretation due to how shoddily the scene was written.

If Regina didn't feel regret, she wouldn't have been bound by the tree to start with, period. The whole POINT of Pan going there was that he actually DID feel no regret, which meant he'd be safe while he absorbs Henry's heart and regains his strength, while any intruders would get tied up since they do have regret.

What Regina did in that moment was what she has done ALL THE TIME in the past, and what she directly did in the flashback at the start of the episode regarding killing Henry Sr.: mentally rationalize and justify everything she does, no matter how warped. Just as she rationalized that she can't regret killing her father because it got her her revenge, she rationalized that she can't regret her revenge because it got her her son. It's not Regina not having regrets, it's Regina using her famous mental gymnastics to absolve herself of regrets.

[Mari]

It's not Regina not having regrets, it's Regina using her famous mental gymnastics to absolve herself of regrets.

Thus not feeling them, correct?

 

It took--what?  10 seconds?  If it was that easy to absolve herself of any and all guilt, it was not particularly deep or sincere.   I think overall, my point stands.

 

Again, Regina regrets not getting what she wants--not what she did.  Therefore, her apologies and remorse were at best manipulation, even if the manipulation was of herself.

 

If we have to resort to theories like "She felt regret but made it go away by not feeling regret,"  then it's more plausible that the tree grabbed her because she was standing by Emma and Snow--both plagued with regret beyond reason--and Regina was just caught in the crossfire.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Mari

[Camera One]

I'm pretty sure it's us the viewers doing the mental gymnastics to make the plot and the character actions make sense to us.  Who needs crossword puzzles and Sudoko when you can just think about this show?

[Zuleikha]

f you mean unreasonable because the show would (logistically) have a hard time shoving Regina in a cell for the rest of the run of the show then I understand and agree.

 

Yes, that was what I meant. 

 

For example, post season 2 Regina could've thrown herself on the mercy of the townspeople and ended up banished to a realm for a half-season where time moves differently than in Storybrook and where she's made to pay for her crimes.

Yes, there are many possible ways the writers could have written a different story. But they wrote the one we got, and my point has simply always been that they're not going to rewrite it just because a faction of fandom didn't like it. 

 

If we have to resort to theories like "She felt regret but made it go away by not feeling regret,"  then it's more plausible that the tree grabbed her because she was standing by Emma and Snow--both plagued with regret beyond reason--and Regina was just caught in the crossfire.

We saw the tree vines bind Regina as an individual, and we saw the moment the vines released her. How is it a leap to view the scene as showing us Regina managing her emotions and not feeling her regret once Pan revealed how the magic works? That's literally what we see happen. If she were just caught in the crossfire, the vines wouldn't have been able to release her because Snow and Emma were still feeling their regrets. For the scene to make any kind of sense, it has to be that Regina generally has regrets--thus feeding the vines initially--but has the ability to compartmentalize and control her emotions thus that she could stop feeling her regrets and make the vines release her.

 

And as matthius pointed out, the show showed us Regina doing exactly that with her feelings about Henry Sr in her conversation with Rumple. It has always been part of Regina's characterization that she is a master at not feeling feelings that are too painful for her to feel. Usually, she sublimates them into anger. In this case, she sublimated into love (progress!). I've described this ability in the past as her greatest strength and her greatest weakness, which I still stand by. 

 

I do think the scene would have been better written as the Tree of Guilt rather than the Tree of Regret, though. Tree of Regret sounds much better, so I understand why they used it, but I think Guilt more clearly conveys the emotion.

[Mari]

Yes, that was what I meant. 

 

 

We saw the tree vines bind Regina as an individual, and we saw the moment the vines released her. How is it a leap to view the scene as showing us Regina managing her emotions and not feeling her regret once Pan revealed how the magic works? That's literally what we see happen. If she were just caught in the crossfire, the vines wouldn't have been able to release her because Snow and Emma were still feeling their regrets. For the scene to make any kind of sense, it has to be that Regina generally has regrets--thus feeding the vines initially--but has the ability to compartmentalize and control her emotions thus that she could stop feeling her regrets and make the vines release her.

 

 

And as matthius pointed out, the show showed us Regina doing exactly that with her feelings about Henry Sr in her conversation with Rumple. It has always been part of Regina's characterization that she is a master at not feeling feelings that are too painful for her to feel. Usually, she sublimates them into anger. In this case, she sublimated into love (progress!). I've described this ability in the past as her greatest strength and her greatest weakness, which I still stand by. 

 

I do think the scene would have been better written as the Tree of Guilt rather than the Tree of Regret, though. Tree of Regret sounds much better, so I understand why they used it, but I think Guilt more clearly conveys the emotion.

 

First of all, the tree grabbing Regina but not Pan means squat.  Pan had lived there hundreds of years--the tree had had plenty of time to sample Pan and learn that he was not nutritious.  Lots of organisms ignore things that are features of their regular life that they know won't be eatable.

 

So, we're left with just a couple of options:

a)  The tree grabbed Regina, sampled her, and threw her back because she was not a tasty snack, similar to Pan.

 

b)

She feels regret, but only a teeny, tiny bit--and what she does feel is focused on "Do I have what I want" instead of "Should I have done what I did?"

 

Loving Henry doesn't mean that she can't or shouldn't regret her actions that lead to Henry being part of her life.  People who recognize that other people are actual people instead of meat puppets for their entertainment are capable of feeling both joy and relief that something good is in their life, while at the same time recognizing and wishing that they hadn't stomped the lives of other people to get that good thing.

 

There's a difference between not acknowledging feelings, justifying your actions despite your feelings, and the feelings being so shallow they almost don't exist.  Focusing on other feelings doesn't make the feelings you don't want go away--it just means they're not your focus.  

 

If the tree was able to let her go after that short amount of time, she felt less regret than your average person feels when they break a nail or wear the wrong shoes to a job interview they didn't want anyway.

 

And the reason she was able to let her regret go?  She got a shiny prize.  So, again, other people don't matter---they're road kill on Regina's way to her bright and glorious destiny.  She will not care for more than 10 seconds as long as she gets something she wants out of it.  That one scene took a character who was on a rocky road self-improvement, and moved her right square back into the "Sociopathic Narcisist" category.

 

I'll drop it now, for a while, because I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Mari

[october]

Yes, there are many possible ways the writers could have written a different story. But they wrote the one we got, and my point has simply always been that they're not going to rewrite it just because a faction of fandom didn't like it.

True, but I don't expect them to rewrite anything even if they could. When I think about the things a show I watch could've done differently I don't do it with any malice or entitlement. I do it to come to terms with what's bothering me about a series and to figure out what I think they could do in the future. And the more I think about how they handled Regina, the more I realise how badly I think they dropped the ball and it makes me sad because she was one of my favourite characters in the first couple of seasons.

 

I'm tougher on Regina (and Rumple) than I am on Hook because if Hook doesn't atone for his crimes in a meaningful way it's an issue, but it doesn't undermine the basis for the show. Storybrooke exists because of what Regina and Rumple chose to do. That's huge. That's a lot of lives that will never be the same and a lot of pain that needs to be accounted for. The show chose to have Regina build up a massive debt to the inhabitants of the town. The writers chose to have Regina kill Graham, for example. They can't blame the audience for wondering if/when Emma is going to find out the truth about his mysterious 'heart attack'. The writers chose to reveal that reformed!Regina has, for years, been allowing one of her minions to sit in a padded cell for a crime she orchestrated. They can't blame some of the audience for wanting to know if one of the show's 'heroes' has other prisoners still rotting away in solitary confinement for no just reason.

 

They set up these questions. I'm not demanding a different story, I'm asking for answers. I'm not asking the writers to write the story I want them to. I'm asking why they haven't followed through with the story they set up and the characters they created and the situations they wrote.

 

[but I'll drop this line of thought now or take it elsewhere if need be because I'm getting away from the subject of Regina and onto the show's writers.]

Edited April 12, 2015 by october

[Serena]

I hope when/if the storyline of Regina's "happy ending" is hopefully concluded at the end of the season, she gets a new one consisting of being proactive and returning the many many hearts she has in her vault. Since the show seems intent on inflicting us Regina/Henry, that can be their new Operation, while the Charmings are off... having tea or whatever.

[KAOS Agent]

I try to stay out of this thread as much as possible, but I was thinking about some comments in the spoiler thread about how disappointing Regina is in 4B and it occurred to me that she's getting the 3B Emma role. Emma had no story in 3B other than wanting to return to New York (which still seems like the safest and best idea for her, especially given the latest stuff, but whatever). Anyway, she spent the entire arc basically focused on getting things done and then heading out. There was no character development where she was seen questioning her decision after enjoying time with her family. She was set on her path even as she smilingly looks at her new baby brother. Then in the finale, Snow "died" and she had a light switch turnaround where suddenly these are her parents and Storybrooke is her home. That was it. Since that's generally how Emma's development works, no one was surprised.

 

But now we have Regina in the Emma role. Regina who usually cries and gets lots of scenes where she expresses herself and how she feels and generally spews emotions all over the place is stuck in one mode. She's trapped with the notion that the author is the answer. She doesn't really appear to care about anything other than this. There are no scenes of her questioning her reasoning with the plan or what it might all mean in the grand scheme of things or that she's after the same thing as the villains and why that might be problematic. She's not seen suggesting that she and Henry take a break from all that book stuff and just enjoy some ice cream and time spent together. It's author or bust as far as Regina's concerned. Because it's obvious they are heading to a finale of author shenanigans, anyone expecting or wanting Regina to develop a brain and some self-awareness during the lead up to the end game is going to be sadly disappointed. Regina isn't going to learn anything until they need her to flip that switch to realize that free will and good choices lead to happiness, not some random guy with a magic quill.

[MDKNIGHT]

Way back I said that while I completely conseed that Regina is EVIL and that they made her too evil to realistically redeem that I insist that Rumple is still MORE EVIL than she is.  A lot of that was centered on the magic bean portal thing because I believe that if it had been Henry jumping into the whirlpool to the "land without magic" where she could start over Regina would have jumped in no question while Rump wussed out.  Now I'm looking at the latest episode.  Rump is choosing between possibly/probably dying from a heart attack or Zelena finishing him off with a pillow whichever,  and working with the person who got his son killed.  Yes it was a harsh choice but when you factor in all the people Rump made suffer to reunite with Baelfire and how his oath to his dead son's gravestone to be a better man lasted all of 5 minutes it seems pretty pathetic he made the deal with Zelena.  Now don't get me wrong I fully expect him to find a way to double cross her that doesn't break thier "deal" BUT I just don't see Regina in the same position agreeing to work with the person responsible for Henry's death.  She'd choose death and trust that Emma would take care of her killer if she couldn't find a way to take her killer with her. 

 

I'm looking forward to more snark between Zelena and Regina.  I always found that entertaining.

[Mari]

Way back I said that while I completely conseed that Regina is EVIL and that they made her too evil to realistically redeem that I insist that Rumple is still MORE EVIL than she is.  A lot of that was centered on the magic bean portal thing because I believe that if it had been Henry jumping into the whirlpool to the "land without magic" where she could start over Regina would have jumped in no question while Rump wussed out.  Now I'm looking at the latest episode.  Rump is choosing between possibly/probably dying from a heart attack or Zelena finishing him off with a pillow whichever,  and working with the person who got his son killed.  Yes it was a harsh choice but when you factor in all the people Rump made suffer to reunite with Baelfire and how his oath to his dead son's gravestone to be a better man lasted all of 5 minutes it seems pretty pathetic he made the deal with Zelena.  Now don't get me wrong I fully expect him to find a way to double cross her that doesn't break thier "deal" BUT I just don't see Regina in the same position agreeing to work with the person responsible for Henry's death.  She'd choose death and trust that Emma would take care of her killer if she couldn't find a way to take her killer with her. 

 

I'm looking forward to more snark between Zelena and Regina.  I always found that entertaining.

Replying in the villains thread.

[Chaos Theory]

I love Regina and think she is the best and most interesting character on the show. I have never understood why people don't like her. I find her fascinating and am always glad when the show fronts her. I enjoy her scenes especially with Emma and the Charmings. I don't want her to be a good guy but I enjoy a good redemption arc and the show does a decent one with her.

[FurryFury]

I have never understood why people don't like her.

 

Basically, we feel that she's been badly written ever since the show suddenly decided it wants to redeem her and first created a bullshit motivation for her evil and then a very inconsistent redemption arc. It's as easy as that.

 

I can sorta understand Regina fans. I've occasionally felt like that towards a villain... (not rapists, though. Rape is crossing the line for me), but it's always happening when I don't care about the show enough to take it seriously and feel like the villain is so much more entertaining than the other stuff. I don't feel like that about Once. Regina has never been a big draw for me - Emma was, Snowing were, EFL flashbacks were. I did enjoy her over the top EQ persona in s1, but the Draco In Leather Pants syndrome became out of control with these writers. It's not even a redemption arc, it's just Regina apology, all the time.

Edited April 18, 2015 by FurryFury

[Mathius]

So, is Isaac right? IS Regina the most consistently screwed over of the Once characters?

[Curio]

Perhaps only if you look at it mathematically in terms of amount of screen time devoted to showing the character's pain. Then yes, Regina has racked up more minutes than any other character simply because she has been given more screen time than any other character. But in terms of looking at the full characterization of a character regardless of the screen time they've been given and looking at the extreme pain Regina has caused other characters, it's hard to make a case for it. It's also very subjective to draw a line saying, "This particular character has been screwed over the most because of x, y, and z." I think plenty of characters have been screwed over on the show (and in very similar ways Regina has) but it shouldn't be some contest of who has been screwed more because there's no way of winning or losing that.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Curio

[Mari]

Perhaps only if you look at it mathematically in terms of amount of screen time devoted to showing the character's pain. Then yes, Regina has racked up more minutes than any other character simply because she has been given more screen time than any other character.

Yes. This.

Plus, a huge amount of the pain we've witnessed has been a direct result of Regina's own choices. Being the victim of a controlling abusive mother who murdered your boyfriend does not mean she and the creepy mentor you chose to help you get revenge are responsible for the bad decisions you make afterwards.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Mari

[Crimson Belle]

Take out the "been". The only accurate statement is that Regina has screwed over the most. She screwed everyone. Even Rumple hasn't randomly killed for pleasure to the extent she has, though he obviously is in competition for screwing folks over.

One bad event happening to you followed by a lifetime of your own destructive choices is not being screwed over the most, particularly in comparison to your own rape, murder and genocide victims.

[KingOfHearts]

She's definitely been screwed over the most, but because of her own actions. She screwed herself over pretty much. Because she had free will for her years in the Enchanted Forest, plus the 30 years in Storybrooke, she had many more opportunities to make mistakes than anyone else. And believe me - she made wrong choices every chance she got. 

 

So yes her life was the crappiest, but it wasn't because of an author. It was consequences. It's how you look at it.

Edited May 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

She's definitely been screwed over the most, but because of her own actions. She screwed herself over pretty much. Because she had free will for her years in the Enchanted Forest, plus the 30 years in Storybrooke, she had many more opportunities to make mistakes than anyone else. And believe me - she made wrong choices every chance she got. 

 

So yes her life was the crappiest, but it wasn't because of an author. It was consequences. It's how you look at it.

I guess I'd even argue that her life was the crappiest.

 

I'm not saying that everything in her life was peaches and rose blossoms, except for Daniel's death.  Regina could not have had a pleasant childhood, for example, and, well, Zelena's nutters, and Regina did absolutely nothing to her to deserve the vendetta.  Henry was kidnapped by Pan, and Regina did absolutely nothing to deserve that.

 

But when it comes right down to it, a great deal of Regina's life was Regina doing exactly what she wanted--and then deciding she wanted something else.  All those years she was the Evil Queen?  She got to do anything that crossed her mind.  She enjoyed a whole lot of it.   All those years as Mayor Mills?  Again, she got to do anything she wanted.  Did she enjoy it?  No, she got bored . . . but bored isn't "misery." 

 

Most of the characters on the show have had just as many bad things happen to them.  It's just that the show doesn't milk it like they do Regina's, and often they weren't actively trying to harm people and having it backfire.  For example Graham--who tried to do the right thing, and ended up being forced to do Regina's violence, against his own conscience, and be a sex slave for 30 odd years?  That's worse off than Regina, with far less karmic reason. 

 

And, personally?  If you're that person who is so busy angrily texting and driving that you don't notice the school bus and crash into it, you're not the victim, and you weren't screwed over, even if you were hurt in the process.  All those little kids on the bus were the victims. 

 

There's definitely been times Regina's been a kid on the bus.  Usually, though?  Her injuries were caused because she wouldn't quit texting.

[KingOfHearts]

 

If you're that person who is so busy angrily texting and driving that you don't notice the school bus and crash into it, you're not the victim, and you weren't screwed over, even if you were hurt in the process.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "screwed over". If it's unfair consequences presenting themselves in life, then yes, other people suffered much more. But if it's just bad things in general, regardless of the source, I'd say Regina experienced more pain because she let herself. Snow, Emma, etc. had pain but they didn't spend every waking moment turning it into a spectacle. They soldiered on. Regina has suffered plenty, but its by choice. Crashing into a school bus doesn't make you a victim, but it is an unfortunate experience that causes pain for both parties. She's the texting driver that still blames the bus for her own mistake, and is still crying over it after years.

[Mari]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "screwed over". If it's unfair consequences presenting themselves in life, then yes, other people suffered much more.

Maybe it's a regional thing, but this is the ONLY way I've ever heard this term used--to mean you were unfairly mistreated, cheated, or betrayed. I've never heard it used to mean unpleasantness in general.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Mari

[Shanna Marie]

But if it's just bad things in general, regardless of the source, I'd say Regina experienced more pain because she let herself. Snow, Emma, etc. had pain but they didn't spend every waking moment turning it into a spectacle. They soldiered on. Regina has suffered plenty, but its by choice.

That doesn't qualify as "screwed over" by any definition I've ever seen. It's generally used to mean suffering unfairly -- the person doing the right thing or minding his own business who ends up suffering from the consequences of someone else doing the wrong thing. The groom trying to have a simple wedding in a field getting his heart ripped out and crushed at his wedding was screwed over, as was his bride.

 

I also don't consider that anyone gets suffering bonus points because they turn it into a spectacle instead of soldiering on. The person living in a mansion and wallowing in misery because she's decided she hates the wallpaper she just got is not suffering more than the poor person living in a hovel and making the best of it because at least she has her health and she loves her family.

[Camera One]

Back in the Enchanted Forest, Regina got screwed over by Cora and Rumple.  Though others have also been screwed over by those two.   In the Enchanted Forest, Snow was screwed over by Cora, Rumple, Regina and King George.  

[KingOfHearts]

If you calculate all the additional years of awareness and the increased amount of vivid reactions, I'd say Regina experienced the most emotional pain. All her troubles are heightened because she dwells on them like there's no tomorrow. She doesn't have hope or the real desire to be happy. She spent 50 years wallowing in her own pity and causing calamity on herself. It wasn't just one bad experience - it was over a long period of time. I'm not saying she was "screwed over" the most by definition. Just that she experienced the most emotional trauma due to her own choices.

Edited May 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I don't think it would be fair to only count the 28 years for her and discount it for everyone else, even though I completely understand the reasoning of the characters in Storybrooke not being aware of those years.  I suppose I think they too lived 28 years not being happy with their lives even if they didn't know why.  I also don't think wallowing in her own pity necessarily equals great emotional pain.  For Regina, I would count the deepest emotional pain to be the years immediately after Daniel was murdered and she was being played by Rumple.  Once she became the Evil Queen, she began to get the joys of hurting others for sport and pleasure, even if there was pain beneath that.  Snow would have had great emotional pain after losing her mother, and the fallout of that terrible dilemma Fake Cora gave her with the candle.  And then she again experienced great emotional pain from losing her father suddenly.  And then the great emotional pain of being marked for death and hunted for sport, plus the pain of thinking she would never be with Charming, and then the pain of 9 months knowing her new family would be ripped apart.  Time-wise, someone could technically say Rumple experienced the most emotional pain for the longest, literally hundreds of years apart from his son, but I can't say his life was worse than everyone else.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Camera One

[Katherine]

I personally have a lot of trouble understanding the belief that Regina has been screwed over the most, for many of the reasons that have already been mentioned here. Obviously it's difficult to measure which character has had it the worst, but no matter which way I look at it, I just don't see how it can be Regina (even though this point of view seems to be pretty common among fans). Say we measure "being screwed over" just in terms of a character losing someone they love, since that's pretty much the worst thing that could happen to anyone. Yes, Regina lost Daniel. But Snow lost both her parents, Emma lost Neal and Graham, Hook lost Liam and Milah, Rumple lost Neal, Charming lost his mom, etc. And let's not even get into the fact that Regina herself was responsible for some of those deaths. Of course, there are other ways that Regina has been "screwed over", like Cora's abuse and Rumple's manipulations. But really, the whole town of Storybrooke was abused by Regina, since she cursed them all and took away their agency. So even though, yes, Regina has definitely had her share of hard times, I don't think it's been worse than that of the average Storybrooke resident.

 

I know some fans viewed the whole Marian thing (and now the Zelena thing) as Regina being screwed over, but the thing (for me) is that Regina chose to walk away from Robin back in the tavern. She chose revenge and anger over happiness. Plus, since Regina was the one who killed Marian in the original timeline, I had trouble sympathizing with her potentially losing Robin when Marian came back to life. Also, lots of characters have been screwed over in other, arguably worse ways, like Snow and Charming never getting to raise their child.

 

I totally get that some fans love the character of Regina and that her story resonates more with them, but I really have trouble understanding how anyone can objectively argue that Regina has been screwed over more than the other characters.

 

ETA: I would love to hear alternative perspectives on this because maybe I'm missing something with Regina. Again, I'm not trying to argue that she hasn't been screwed over, just that she hasn't been screwed over "the most".

Edited May 7, 2015 by Katherine

[Minneapple]

I don't want her to be a good guy but I enjoy a good redemption arc and the show does a decent one with her.

 

My problem is that I don't think her redemption arc has been about redemption at all. If the writers just started with a small thing like Regina showing remorse for her actions, then I'd buy her "redemption." How has she redeemed herself, for example, from killing Graham? Has she ever shown remorse for his death?

[YaddaYadda]

How has she redeemed herself, for example, from killing Graham? Has she ever shown remorse for his death?

 

Who is this Graham you speak of?  You're being plain silly!  We're supposed to have forgotten all about Graham except they keep trying to bring him up whenever they have the chance.

[FurryFury]

Maybe he did die of a heart attack. We are just confused. It's all the Author's fault anyway, he made her do it!

[Shanna Marie]

Hmm, maybe Isaac meant that Regina screwed over more than others rather than was screwed over, and he just misspoke. She did grow up with an abusive, power-hungry mother and spineless father, and she had her first love murdered in front of her, and she had an evil mastermind manipulating her. All of those are bad. But they're not that much worse (if at all) than anything that's happened to most of the other characters, and most of the negative things that happened to her in adulthood were the result of her own bad choices.

 

She could have had a stepdaughter who adored her, but she chose to hate her and seek revenge on her instead. I won't even bring up the possibility of a happy marriage with Leopold, since we don't know if he really wanted a wife or just a glorified nanny, but she was shown her soulmate and chose to pursue revenge instead, and then later the genie loved her, but she screwed him over by manipulating him into killing Leopold and then making sure he'd take the fall for it. She chose to make Snow into an outlaw bandit, and then she chose to screw over the people of her kingdom by being the Evil Queen. After driving Snow out, she could have made Snow look bad by being a benevolent ruler who used her magic to make life better for her people, and either they'd have forgotten Snow or maybe even turned against her, but Regina chose to be an evil tyrant. She chose to screw over Maleficent to get the curse, and she chose to screw over her father by murdering him to cast the curse.

 

It's the fact that Regina is still claiming victimhood that makes her so-called redemption arc unsatisfying to me. If she were really and truly redeemed, she'd need to recognize the wrongs she's done and focus on that rather than focusing on how she feels she's been wronged.

[Camera One]

Hmm, maybe Isaac meant that Regina screwed over more than others rather than was screwed over, and he just misspoke.

 

I think Isaac meant exactly what he said, since he's the mouthpiece of the writers, who actually believe that Regina is the one who had suffered the most out of all the characters (Eddy has actually said something like that before).  Now, if he had said Regina screwed UP more than any other, then I concur.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Camera One