Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[Camera One]

ShadowFacts:

 

 

The canonization of Regina plus the tainting of Emma's character have also put me off of the show.   By tainting of Emma I mean the fact that she lets Henry have unsupervised contact with Regina, lets him live in the same zip code as her, etc.  That's not what she should be able to contemplate for her son given her own life experiences and her recent first person view of what Evil Queen Regina actually did to people.  This clip where the actress describes Regina's great moments as a mother is beyond whitewashing, it's delusional.  And offensive.  I guess I'm not surprised there are fans who scream and cheer her, but it makes me cringe.

 

Regina can be a great character, but this whitewashing really turns me off as well, since it's so heavy-handed.  It doesn't feel natural when everything feels forced, and with every episode they do it, my feeling about the character degrades.  

 

Even though Season 3 was supposed an improvement, we got Henry telling Regina that he now knows she loved him all along and he shouldn't have gone to get Emma in "Going Home", we got the entire "Welcome to Storybrooke" to expound on the fact that Regina changed when Henry came into her life and she loved him so much she kept him even though his birthmother was Emma and could be her downfall, and then we got the whole Regina giving Henry True Love's Kiss to break the spell in "A Curious Thing".

 

And this doesn't even touch on:

 

1. The Snow White character assassination (this one would require an entire book to fully describe), which now has extended to Emma who saw Regina burn her mom at the stake in the finale with no effect whatsoever.

 

2. The focus on Regina's loss at the expense of everyone else, again to expound on how much she loves Henry.  "A New York Serenade" gave her a subplot missing Henry and it was the entire focus of "Witch Hunt".  Whereas Snow and Charming got nothing about missing Emma.  And then in "The Tower", Regina actually got to bond with Henry, at Emma's urging.  That's three episodes in a row devoted to Regina being a mother.  Some of those scenes were good, yes, but it makes me angry that it was at the expense of other characters' development.  

Edited June 22, 2014 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

It is my pipe dream that Regina actually answers for the shit she's done. And I mean by way of the other characters being able to dish the snark she dishes out on a regular basis without having to worry about her evilness's feelings.

 

Like, Emma, it's totally okay to call Regina out on burning your mother at the stake for a mistake she made when she was a kid Henry's age. And Snow, the fact you survived said burning at the stake because of your own ingenuity does not negate the fact that this woman totally burned you at the stake. Marian, it's totally okay to give Regina all kinds of shit for putting you on Enchanted Forest Death Row when your only crime was protecting someone else, and Robin, it's totally okay for you to be pissed at the woman who stole your wife and your son's mother from the both of you. Henry, it's totally okay to have conflicted feelings about Regina, as she did raise you but her gaslighting and other abuses of you are not okay. Charming, it's totally okay for you to give Regina all kinds of shit for sending her royal guards in to kill your newborn daughter and forcing you to miss her entire life up to this point.

 

And it goes on and on. Part of a really good, deserved redemption story is remorse on the part of the character needing redemption. If Regina truly regrets nothing, there's absolutely no growth. If she truly regrets nothing, what's to stop her from doing any of it again? Handing every happy ending to her on a silver platter while expecting the other characters to either lump it or actively encourage it is rewarding villainy. That is not the kind of story I watch for, and, when this show started, that is not the kind of story we were given. I wanted to see the Evil Queen defeated, not handed everything she wants. "Good always wins" was a mantra for this show for a while, and now it feels like evil is the only thing that truly wins, because Regina's getting everything just by making token attempts to change when deep down, she's the same woman she's always been.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

The issue here is the writing and the inconsistencies portrayal. In S1, Regina is full-on Evil Queen with the Mayor Mills rampage. There is absolutely no doubt about it - she's the villain. In S2, she's a totally different character. She immediately wants to redeem herself because of her "love" for Henry that was never shown before. The Charmings are super friendly to her, even though she killed Graham, framed Mary Margaret, and attempted to seduce David just episodes prior. Emma was hostile to Regina for all of S1, but in the first part of S2 it was all "We need to save her!"

 

Then Cora comes to town and starts poisoning Regina's brain again. Even Rumple gave her really bad influence. The whole failsafe plot with Henry totally erased all the progress she had made in S2. And here in 3B, they've done it again with Marian. Why do they like building Regina up only to knock her down again?

 

In S3, she's portrayed as a strict non-abusive mother who has a history with the Charmings. It's like night and day from S1 to S3. They've rushed her redemption with zero remorse for really no good reason. She's more popular being evil, so I don't understand the push to redeem her and whitewash her past.

 

My point: she's two separate characters. S1 Regina doesn't even compute with S3 Regina. It's the worst character incoherency on the show right now. If Regina is a hero, she needs to move on, not just call herself one.

Edited June 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

My point: she's two separate characters.

 

The (unintentional) laugh-out-loud moment in the Season 3 finale was when they had Hook explain to Emma, "That's not Regina.  It's The Evil Queen".  

[Dani-Ellie]

My point: she's two separate characters. S1 Regina doesn't even compute with S3 Regina. It's the worst character incoherency on the show right now.

 

Exactly, but that's part and parcel of the problem. I hate to tell you, writers, but Regina is the Evil Queen. She doesn't even have the benefit of having some sort of "we are both" explanation worked into her personality because she was never both. She was aware the whole damn time and she never had a cursed personality. Trying to force some sort of difference between the two characters doesn't work because within the story as they've constructed it, they aren't two separate characters.

 

Maybe they regret that but this isn't like the planning stages of a novel where the author can just remove the offending section and pretend it never existed. The things Regina has done as the Evil Queen are canon. We can point to scene X of episode Y and say, "Look! Right here is when she did Evil Deed Z!" The way to put all that behind everyone and give Regina what they so very clearly want to give her is to deal with it, not pretend it never happened.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Camera One]

Maybe they regret that but this isn't like the planning stages of a novel where the author can just remove the offending section and pretend it never existed.

 

I would be more understanding if they're reversing what they initially wrote in S1, but the thing is - they kept adding to Regina's evil deeds, I assume because it's so "fun" to write/watch.  They added the chapter of the village massacre to the middle of the book (an act which is arguably unforgivable).  And even in S3, they had her render Ariel mute for thirty odd years, burn Snow at the stake gleefully with nary a doubt, sent a woman who just defended Snow White to the gallows AND in Neverland declared with no qualms that she has no regrets about anything she has ever done because it got her Henry (I'm pretty sure that was Regina, not The Evil Queen).  All the while maintaining in the present-day that Regina has changed by throwing around a few ultimately meaningless verbal apologies (eg. Belle).  They devoted an entire episode to her animosity against Snow White in "Bleeding Through" yet Regina didn't full-out apologize to Snow (her so-called apology was something like, oh MAYBE if I had known you better, I wouldn't have tried to murder you and your loved ones/friends fifty different ways), and it was framed as if there was fault on BOTH sides, AND it was backed with a newly created backstory where Cora, Zelena and Regina's unhappiness ultimately began with that wretched Eva.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

And Regina as Regina in Storybrooke has done plenty of evil, including murdering Graham for breaking up with her (maybe she and Rumple should hook up -- they're two of a kind), attempting to murder Emma and nearly murdering Henry when he got in the way, plotting to destroy the whole town and kill everyone in it, framing Mary Margaret for murder, killing Owen's father because the child wanted to go home with his father instead of staying with her, and generally being an all-around bitch to everyone. Not that we've heard a word of apology for any of this.

 

I rewatched "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter" last night, and I'd forgotten how bad she really was in that. I really can't get behind any kind of romantic happy ending for a character who murdered her last romantic partner for leaving her and who had her previous husband murdered. There's a lot of rehab that needs to go on in the meantime before she gets to have a relationship, let alone before she gets to develop a relationship with a man who's only available because she murdered his wife and that breaks up a canon pairing and that has a child in the middle. Killing a person because he/she broke up isn't just fairytale violence. It happens in the real world all the time, and it can't be handwaved over because this is a fairy tale. Do we need to Clockwork Orange the writing staff and force them to watch season one on a loop before they're allowed to write new episodes so they don't forget what they established?

[KingOfHearts]

I rewatched "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter" last night, and I'd forgotten how bad she really was in that.

 

Why did Emma never question the circumstances of Graham's death after the curse broke? He was just "collateral damage" apparently.

 

I'm a firm believer that Regina can fully redeem herself, but that starts by saying sorry and admitting your wrongs. I'm curious why Regina said sorry to Cora, Henry, and Belle before saying it to Snow. Regina says she wanted to be redeemed, and the writers want to convince us she already has been, but they don't show how she got there. Emma said "she's changed", but when did she change? Robin was just a boy toy to Regina. There's no way he changed her heart.

 

When did Regina snap and become EQ? In which moment did she decide to be good? Retcon. Retcon. Retcon.

Edited June 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

When did Regina snap and become EQ?

 

I think that was in the episode "The Evil Queen" when she finally grasped the idea that no one loves a murderer, and decides the only other alternative is to be a evil sadistic psychopath who should punish the insolent commoners who don't love her.

[KingOfHearts]

I think that was in the episode "The Evil Queen" when she finally grasped the idea that no one loves a murderer, and decides the only other alternative is to be a evil sadistic psychopath who should punish the insolent commoners who don't love her.

 

She was already a psycho before that, though. She was mass murdering villages. Sorry, I should have been more clear - I meant when she transformed from a harmless teen into a bloodthirsty nutcase. It could possibly have been in The Doctor. Still, the reasoning the writers have is bizarrely inorganic.

Edited June 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[retrograde]

I would be more understanding if they're reversing what they initially wrote in S1, but the thing is - they kept adding to Regina's evil deeds, I assume because it's so "fun" to write/watch.  

Agreed. I can understand that they got to the end of season 1 and went "Crap, we have made Regina totally evil, but we actually need a reason to keep her around and in Henry's life so we might need to retcon a little...." (I mean it still wouldn't be great writing, but I get it) but they just keep digging themselves into a deeper hole.

[Camera One]

She was already a psycho before that, though. She was mass murdering villages. 

 

The mass-murdering of the village also happened in "The Evil Queen".  It really came out of nowhere to me, and instantly, I felt they destroyed her character past the point of no return.  Killing Leopold and trying to murder Snow White was of course already psychotic, but I think killing innocent people en masse brought it to another level.  I am going to assume that was the first village she murdered.  

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear - I meant when she transformed from a harmless teen into a bloodthirsty nutcase. It could possibly have been in The Doctor. Still, the reasoning the writers have is bizarrely inorganic.

 

I think you're right... the first time she took a life was in "The Doctor", after she realized Daniel would never be revived.  Before that, she couldn't kill that unicorn.  I thought even that transformation was a bit sudden, murdering that random gypsy woman.  I guess once you kill a person, the heart continues to darken, if no remorse is felt.  Did the pain and anger about Daniel mask the remorse?  Or did Regina really feel no remorse?

 

I guess one would also say she had latent violent tendencies by fantasizing about strangling Young Snow White in the "We Are Both" flashback.  

Edited June 22, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Regina's motivations as a character have never been completely sane. I think that is why it's hard for me to buy into a redemption arc for her. She's never been portrayed as all there. She blames a young child for something her mother did and flies completely off the handle down into such a psychotic rage that it's hard to believe the crazy wasn't there all along, it was just buried by her own contentment with life. This idea is backed up by the many situations where when Regina gets her way and ends up with what she wants, she's relatively stable. Take it away and she flips out again. You have to deal with the crazy before I can fully believe that no matter what life throws at her, Regina will stick to behaving like a mentally stable, mature adult. 

 

I also need this show to stop pretending that she didn't do or plan to do terrible things to Henry. I have no doubt she loved him, but it's not a healthy love. The plan she had to remove his free will, so that she could make him love only her was truly sick. She never seems to take Henry's feelings into account. How did she think Henry would react when she killed Emma with the apple turnover? Did she really think that after killing all of his family and friends with the failsafe, Henry would be a happy little boy who loved to frolic in the Enchanted Forest? There's never any awareness of his feelings and it just feeds into my belief that the woman is actually mentally ill. Henry is a boy who I believe would have True Love for Regina because he is loving and forgiving and very much in the vein of Snow White. On the other hand, I don't read Regina's love for Henry as pure and true because time after time I've seen her not place his well being and feelings above her own. There has to be an acknowledgement and self-awareness that what she was doing was wrong and not just because she failed or because Henry desperately pleaded with her not to do it. Don't whitewash it or pretend it didn't happen. Address it and show me that she understands why it's not at all acceptable to do that.

[KingOfHearts]

One of the reasons I believe she's redeemable is because she wasn't always evil. Before the Stable Boy and her meeting Rumple in We Are Both, she was a kindhearted person. Although brief, she had a "big sister" relationship with Snow. Regina was happy to save Snow's life, and made sure she didn't know about Daniel's true fate out of sympathy. She hated magic and wanted to avoid it at all cost. Her relationship with her father was also deep and loving. At one point in time, she knew better. Of course it may have just been bliss from being in love with Daniel, but she recognized the light and lived in it. She wasn't always a psycho, and this is why I think she's capable of being normal.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Do we need to Clockwork Orange the writing staff and force them to watch season one on a loop before they're allowed to write new episodes so they don't forget what they established?

 

That is a great idea.  They did it to a character on 'Lost', why don't they do it to themselves?

[Serena]

Why did Emma never question the circumstances of Graham's death after the curse broke? He was just "collateral damage" apparently.

Apparently, there was a line cut in 122, in the scene immediately after Emma believes, when she takes Regina and she's like "it's all true isn't it?", where she also mentions how she was the one to kill Graham. But it was cut. And then he was never mentioned again. And since ALL the Charmings are only alive because of Graham, and he's only dead and was raped for 30 years because Snow didn't have the guts to kill Regina, or at least keep her in prison, they all look very, very bad in this situation

[KAOS Agent]

I've been thinking about how to "fix" the Evil Queen problem I have with a redemption seeking Regina. It's not something they're going to be able to do for me, but I think that something they could do to ameliorate my problems with the continued use of more and more horrible acts by the Evil Queen in the past is to stop having her look like she enjoys it so much. When she seems to be getting off on the acts themselves, it makes me really uncomfortable with the notion of redemption. She becomes a sadist and her enjoyment of inflicting pain on others really strips away the humanity they want me to see underneath the Evil Queen facade. I don't know if it's direction or just how Lana plays it, but they need to stop it. It's not easy to associate that her actions are coming from emotional pain in her past when she's clearly liking what she's doing.

[ShadowFacts]

 

She becomes a sadist and her enjoyment of inflicting pain on others really strips away the humanity they want me to see underneath the Evil Queen facade. I don't know if it's direction or just how Lana plays it, but they need to stop it. It's not easy to associate that her actions are coming from emotional pain in her past when she's clearly liking what she's doing.

 

So true.  And relatively recently, she smirked when she found out that Greg/Owen was dead.  Smirked.  The kid whose father she killed, she got pleasure from knowing he was dead, too.  That's a deeply twisted response.  And as to her misdeeds regarding Henry, even day-to-day I got the impression she had Mommie Dearest tendencies.  I recall her leaving Henry home on a Saturday so she could have a tryst with Graham, and told him he couldn't watch t.v., only do homework.  Leaving a ten year-old all day Saturday, no supervision, no friends, no amusements.  She really didn't give a rip about his needs at all. 

[Camera One]

I think that something they could do to ameliorate my problems with the continued use of more and more horrible acts by the Evil Queen in the past is to stop having her look like she enjoys it so much.

 

Supposedly that's what makes it so deliciously evil to watch.  I remember reading quite a few comments of people who enjoyed that smirk.

 

Lana has said she adds looks of disgust whenever she's around Snow and Charming, so I wonder how often the expressions are written in and when they're improvised.

[FanaticalWriter]

 

Lana has said she adds looks of disgust whenever she's around Snow and Charming, so I wonder how often the expressions are written in and when they're improvised.

 

That's a good question. I remember Lana saying once that she writes extensive notes to herself on her scripts, regarding her character. Maybe those notes influence a lot of Regina's non-verbal reactions.  

[myril]

That's a good question. I remember Lana saying once that she writes extensive notes to herself on her scripts, regarding her character. Maybe those notes influence a lot of Regina's non-verbal reactions.  

Quite sure they do, it's called acting ;-) Of course sometimes an actor improvises in the very moment they're filming, but there is a lot of thought they might have given the scene before, rehearse it in their head, try options, some making plenty of notes on the script, others keeping their notes in their heads so to speak. It's not like they just learn the lines, walk on set and then see what will happen (although some might do that, and some aren't even good at learning their lines). They might try different version on camera as well, but as they often enough do several takes of a scenes with different angles, camera position they have to settle with one version and come as close as possible to that again and again even down to gestures, movements, facial, otherwise it might be noticeable in cuts.

 

The more I think about the mess with this character, the more I find the premise they choose for her difficult to ever agree on a redemption arc. That Regina hold such a grudge against Snow, and then as well somewhat against Charming was childish, nothing else. There was nothing truly furious and dark in it (the Maleficent movie is actually better in that), she was some rich, abused brat abusing now power herself (even as Duchess, or whatever they were they lived comfortable already, had a lot more than most of us ever will). Regina would have plenty of more reasons to go after Rumple, after all he needed her desperate and lonely and made sure she was, he manipulated and exploited her while posing as benevolent mentor, Snow was just another pawn. If they would have set it more as that she went after Snow and Charming because Rumple was hiding behind them, that I could have bought into better as tragic story . Regina blamed the innocent fool for her misery,and made a lot more innocent people pay for it.

 

Now I can accept that Regina would have struggled to go against her mother, on the other hand she send Hook after her to kill her. If they really want me to sympathize with adult Regina though and not just with the abused child she once was, then Regina has to grow up and open her eyes and see, that blaming Snow was totally wrong to begin with. That crappy half-hearted moment between Regina in Snow in "Bleeding Through" was not it. Snow and Eva sure were no perfect people and doing enough things wrong on their own, but mixing it with Regina admitting her mother was no good either took away from making it a real grow for Regina.

 

I even want to sympathize with Regina, I sure have a heart for underdogs, but I have no heart for bullies. And so far all they made her was a poor "teenager" being exploited by her mother and her mentor, a teenager who then turned bully and still mostly is one as adult. And she still doesn't seem to get it. Makes Regina neither smart nor any redeemable. We say often, that the writers love the character too much, but I think they love this character too little or in the wrong way, they don't let her grow but keep her in a sort of teenager tantrum status for the sake of whatever fits they're next action figure shenanigan. They don't do the character any good, if she mostly shines because the other main characters are written even weaker, and doesn't make it her work and effort to be able to wield even light power for a moment but a gift thanks to Henry's love.

 

I liked the potential the character had, but I dislike what they make of it. 

[FanaticalWriter]

Ugh, blah. I know that's part of acting. That sounded clueless and stupid, and that's not what I meant. I posted too late at night, and I think only half of my reply made it into the post. :P

What I meant to say was something along the lines of Lana's notes and acting decisions being the reason we see such discrepancy between where the plot wants to take Regina, re: redemption, and our own willingness to buy into it--or not. But again, I think only half of my thoughts made it into the post. No more posting in the wee hours of the morning for me! ;) I'm not really that stupid. I hope.

Regarding Regina's redemption, I think it's a shame how poorly they have handled it. I mean, if they want to redeem her, fine. That's all well and good. But in order to redeem a character that has been portrayed as so evil and heinous, you have to do it in a way that is organic to the story in order to be realistic. And the only way to make it at all organic rather than contrived, in my opinion, is to A) make it gradual, and B) make it relatively consistent.

The writers have ignored both A and B in favor of rushing Regina's redemption arc and making her so inconsistent with it that viewers can't help but feel a bit like they're on the wrong end of a yo-yo. (Or maybe that's just me.)

It just doesn't work. It's not realistic. And yes, this is a fantasy show, but speaking as a fantasy writer, even the most fantastical stories and elements of a tale have to be grounded with realistic characters that behave in realistic ways. Otherwise people just won't buy it, no matter how you try to dress it up.

And I think that's the crux of the problem with Regina's redemption arc: it simply isn't realistic that someone could behave so heinously, much less for so many years, and have people trust and forgive her in such a short span of time, given how much she's yanked them around or tried to kill them.

Heck, in real life, I doubt many would forgive her at all.

But the worst part is that Regina has no regrets for anything she has done. None. And that pretty much invalidates any attempts the writers have made at redeeming her, no matter how sloppy. And that's the heart of the problem right there.

Edited June 25, 2014 by FanaticalWriter

[stealinghome]

What I meant to say was something along the lines of Lana's notes and acting decisions being the reason we see such discrepancy between where the plot wants to take Regina, re: redemption, and our own willingness to but into it--or not.

Yeah, I've often wondered the same thing. I do, honestly, think that the fact that Lana is such a Regina stan sometimes is not a good thing, because it leads her to make acting decisions that don't really go with the script (I remember thinking this a lot in 2A--that Regina would seem too "good" when she really needed to seem "bad," or vice versa). But I think Lana also really, really wants Regina to get her happy ending, and maybe that has made her lose a little objectivity where Regina is concerned--which is a real contrast to Robert Carlyle, who so clearly wants Rumpel to stay a villain and die a villain, and who maybe has been able to give his character more coherency as a result.

 

But I also think that Lana has the fundamental problem that the writers do, too, in that she loves the Evil Queen way too much even as she desperately wants Regina to be redeemed. It's clear that Lana just enjoys the hell out of playing crazy, psycho, totally evil Evil Queen--who wouldn't?--and I honestly think that mode is the one in which she's most compelling as an actress. Woegina is way, way less interesting to me. Lana can't be unaware of this, and it contributes to the whole "we don't want to give up Evil Queen!mode Regina" thing. But it's that refusal to truly let go of The Evil Queen, even as they pay lip service to Regina being The Goodest Good That Ever Gooded, that's really the problem.

[Shanna Marie]

And I think that's the crux of the problem with Regina's redemption arc: it simply isn't realistic that someone could behave so heinously, much less for so many years, and have people trust and forgive her in such a short span of time, given how much she's yanked them around or tried to kill them.

That's the big problem, that they're doing this all out of order, or missing steps entirely. To me, a redemption arc needs to go like this:

 

1. You realize and acknowledge that the things you've done were wrong and acknowledge the harm you've done to others through your evil actions. Without this step, a change in behavior doesn't make sense -- if you decide to be "good," that implies that you were "bad" before. Why would you change if you don't think that what you were doing before was at all wrong?

 

Admitting that you were wrong doesn't negate wrongs done to you. It just means that you've realized your response to those wrongs was inappropriate. Hook realizing that revenge was a bad way to spend his life doesn't negate the wrong Rumple did to him. It just changes his own behavior (and, in a sense, refusing to let Rumple's existence affect his life anymore is probably better revenge). Even if we go with the bizarre notion that Snow truly wronged Regina, Regina needs to acknowledge that murdering entire villages, taking hearts, enslaving people and cursing an entire kingdom was an inappropriate response to that action. Heck, it would have been inappropriate even if Snow had deliberately told Cora about Daniel out of spite.

 

2. You change your behavior for no other reason than that it's the right thing to do. Part of this change is letting go of the selfishness that keeps you from seeing things from other people's point of view and that keeps you from making everything about how it affects you. You aren't allowed to have a drama queen meltdown about being separated from your son in front of someone who missed her daughter's entire life due to your actions. Even if you don't get credit for being good, you keep being good. You do good things even if no one will ever know what you did.

 

3. People see your changes and start to change the way they see you. This is optional and entirely up to them. You aren't allowed to get angry at them for not seeing how good you are until you have a pretty consistent streak of helping them and they still choose to see the worst in you, but then you're not allowed to lash out at them or use it as an excuse to backslide. You just move on and make a fresh start away from the people you've wronged. It's a gift if they choose to forgive and trust you. It is not something you're automatically entitled to.

 

With Regina, they skipped no. 1 entirely, then went straight to no. 3, with everyone suddenly trying to be nice to her before she actually changed her ways. It was like someone flipped a switch, and they all went straight from believing that Regina was evil because of all the evil things she did to trusting her, being nice to her and even being willing to sacrifice for her. I really don't get Henry, who in season one considered her evil and who was the one person who outright blamed her for Graham's murder, suddenly wanting to save her because she's his mom.

[Wandering1]

Love Regina's redemption storyline. I feel like she is one of the few characters that has actually moved forward when so many have regressed. Hope it continues in season 4. Of all the 'Villains' Regina is the only one that wants to change. She is actively making better choices. I think there will be some step back at the beginning of S4, but I hope it is quick and she can keep working for her happy ending.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Wandering1

[Mari]

Really so he has no idea why a "murderous tyrant" is suddenly aligned with Snow and Charming? He has no idea that she is risking her life to get the shield down to help Snow and Charming get into the castle? He has no idea of the depth of her self loathing or her love of her son? Sorry but I disagree.  I think Robin witnessed Regina development.

Don't really care what oxford defines it as. Based on what is on screen, Regina has shown remorse, but she will NEVER regret that her son was born. No mother would.  Robin doesn't have to challenger Regina to be a better person. That was the point. Regina isn't changing for him. 

The definition matters, because remorse and regret are pretty much the same thing--in fact, the definition for regret references remorse. 

 

In general, people are more complex than "If Regina regrets her actions it means she regrets Henry."  Most people are capable of simultaneously being sad and regretful that they hurt other people, while being grateful for good things--and people--that have happened.

 

The problem is, halfway through her redemption season, Regina was tied to a tree that apparently magically senses your regret (and since they mean the same thing--your remorse) and stated she did not feel it, because she got what she wanted.

 

The impression it left is that as long as she gets what she wants, she's not going to be all murderous and rampage.  Now, she has managed to grow enough to care about one person--Henry--but that doesn't mean that she's all better, or that she's a good person, now.

 

She's going to need more than constant approval if she's going to stay a good person, and that usually requires remorse, which  I haven't really seen, and Regina explicitly rejected.

[Wandering1]

I am confused, first you are saying she has no regrets so she is wrong, but that it doesn't matter because regret and remorse are the same thing and then at the end you said she requires more remorse? Why? If they are the same thing to you?

I disagree completely. Regina is not going to say she regrets the curse, because she doesn't. No curse, no Henry. I think it is a simplistic idea that remorse and regret are the same thing. They aren't. You can feel bad about something that happened, but not regret the good that came from it.

[Rumsy4]

But Regina specifically said she does not regret any of the horrible things she did--she never said I don't regret the good that came of it. She does not regret her actions. She has also not expressed any remorse for casting the Curse, or murdering villagers, etc., even if we consider them to be separate things. Even now, at her core, she sees herself as a victim, and refuses to take responsibility for the "collateral damage" she inflicted on other people. Regina needs to truly realize how much she has wronged other people before I can buy her redemption. 

[Wandering1]

Really, so when did she say she was the victim? Which episode?

[Dani-Ellie]

I don't think anyone's arguing that Regina expressing remorse for her past crimes means she regrets Henry coming into her life. Regret and remorse (which are sides of the same coin, no matter which dictionary is used to define the terms ... they're synonyms, not two separate ideas) are more complex than that. She can be overjoyed that Henry came into her life while still feeling awful about all the people she stomped over to get him. As a mother, she could think about how she would feel if Henry were ever ripped from her life as a baby and then returned to her as a full-grown adult and feel awful over doing the same to Snow and Charming. As a woman who's had love ripped from her, she could express sympathy for Emma growing up with no love whatsoever as a direct result of her actions.

 

Being happy that she has Henry and feeling guilt and remorse over the horrible things she's done are not mutually exclusive.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Rumsy4]

 

Really wow, so when did she say she was the victim? Which episode?

 

Regina's default attitude is that of someone put upon by other people. That speech she gave Emma in Pan's Cave that she had nobody (unlike Emma) is one big example, because she doesn't realize or acknowledge that a lot of it (not all) has been her own fault. She still blames Snow for not thinking about consequences, but refuses to consider her own. Despite their bonding over Cora's ghost, Regina continues to feel resentful that Snow had a better relationship with her mother (Eva) than Regina did with hers (Cora). She looks on herself as the victim of Emma's actions in bringing Marian back to the future with her, rather than understanding that Marian, Robin, and Roland are in fact, victims of her past acts.

 

I am not saying that Regina is unredeemable or that she hasn't changed. However, I do think that she seems to have skipped-over some key steps in character growth, and she still has a long way to go. 

[Wandering1]

"As a mother, she could think about how she would feel if Henry were ever ripped from her life as a baby and then returned to her as a full-grown adult and feel awful over doing the same to Snow and Charming."

 

But Regina wasn't responsible for Emma being ripped away. That was  a choice Snow and Charming made. Grace was cursed. When the curse was over she was still a kid. It was Snow and Charming's decision to sacrifice Emma for their own future that caused them to lose her for 28 years.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Wandering1

[formerlyfreedom]

Hello, all. Just a reminder of the Previously.TV social contract. If you aren't able to disagree without attacking fellow posters don't post here. And once you've made your point move on, don't keep restating it trying to change other people's opinions. We don't all have to have the same opinion on Regina.
 
Thanks.

[Wandering1]

"Regina's default attitude is that of someone put upon by other people. That speech she gave Emma in Pan's Cave that she had nobody (unlike Emma) is one big example, because she doesn't realize or acknowledge that a lot of it (not all) has been her own fault."

 

Regina never said she was a victim. She was pointing out, correctly, that Henry was all she had. Which was true. Doesn't make her a victim.

[stealinghome]

Really, so when did she say she was the victim? Which episode?

Aside from pretty much every episode?

 

Off the top of my head: Regina's dream in 1x21, where she says "I just wanted to win, for once," clearly suggests that she sees herself as a victim, because otherwise the "for once" doesn't make sense. In 1x18, Regina says to the imprisoned Mary Margaret that she is getting "justice" (and she actually says this--these are not my words). Justice implies that a crime has been committed, and thus that Regina is the victim of the crime Young Snow committed. Verbatim from the episode, when Mary Margaret asks why Regina is getting off on seeing an innocent woman suffer, Regina says: "You've always seen yourself that way, haven't you? Innocent.... Apology not accepted.... I know [you didn't kill Kathryn]. But you do deserve this." Again, I'm not sure how to interpret this other than that Regina sees herself as the victim of a crime that young Snow committed. (And I agree that Young Regina was a victim--but Cora's victim, not Young Snow's victim.)

 

In Season 2, Regina tells Snow that she made Regina the Evil Queen. From 2x15: "Have you ever considered that maybe, perhaps, I am good? I was always the queen, it was you who added evil to my name." Again, suggesting that Snow has been oppressing her. And in 'The Evil Queen,' Regina blames Snow for the fact that the villagers don't like her (instead of looking in the mirror and realizing that they don't like her because she's, you know, murdering people). Victim, victim, victim, she whines.

 

In Season 3, Regina point-blank tells Emma "You don't think about the consequences of your actions, just like your mother!" Again, I'm not sure how to interpret this other than that Regina sees herself as victimized by Snow and now Emma, because it implies that Regina has been the victim of Snow and Emma's "thoughtless" actions.

 

Regina has a victim complex the size of Texas.

 

But Regina wasn't responsible for Emma being ripped away. That was  a choice Snow and Charming made

Wrong. Snow and Charming were placed in a position where they were forced to give Emma up because of Regina's actions. Given that Regina would have murdered baby Emma, I'd say that was the right call. Regina knows all about murdering helpless children, as we've seen.

[Camera One]

Regina wasn't responsible for Emma being ripped away.

But Snow and Charming wouldn't have needed to send her away if Regina never cast the Dark Curse in the first place.

Not to mention Regina sent her guards to kill Emma, so her intention was to separate Snow/Charming from their first-born. So Snow and Charming wouldn't have been able to keep Emma. Plus the Curse would never have been broken.

I think all of us want to see Regina continue on her road to redemption, and hopefully she will eventually fully apologize for casting the Curse and recognize the negative effects on Emma, Snow, Charming and all the inhabitants of the Enchanted Forest.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Camera One

[Aliasscape]

"As a mother, she could think about how she would feel if Henry were ever ripped from her life as a baby and then returned to her as a full-grown adult and feel awful over doing the same to Snow and Charming."

 

But Regina wasn't responsible for Emma being ripped away. That was  a choice Snow and Charming made. Grace was cursed. When the curse was over she was still a kid. It was Snow and Charming's decision to sacrifice Emma for their own future that caused them to lose her for 28 years.

It was a great debate throughout the fandom why Regina and the black knights showed up at the castle and was long theorized Regina was there specifically to find and kill Emma as the most likely scenario. Thankfully, it's not even a question anymore. Regina found out Emma could break the curse from Rumpel and stated "Looks like killing a baby just made my To Do List". So if Emma had still been in the castle when Regina and her knights arrived, Emma would not have been cursed to be a baby for all eternity, not aging, like Grace. Emma would have been murdered.

 

I think Charming got confirmation of this when knights tried to run the kid through in his arms. He was able to be absolutely certain the baby would have died if he hadn't put her in the wardrobe right that moment. The choice Snow and Charming made was for Emma not to die. Emma being a cursed baby was never an actual canon option Regina was willing to have happen. In Regina's perfect world, Emma would have been ripped away via death.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Aliasscape

[Stuffy]

All that plus Adam and Eddie said a long time ago Regina was trying to kill Emma. I believe they were shutting down the fan theory that Regina would've raised Emma.

[stealinghome]

Also, don't forget that even if Charming had somehow evaded Regina+Black Knights until the curse hit but didn't put baby Emma in the wardrobe--ie if baby Emma had been taken by the curse to Storybrooke--Emma never would have grown up, and therefore never could have broken the curse. They all really would have been cursed for all eternity.

[Souris]

All that plus Adam and Eddie said a long time ago Regina was trying to kill Emma. I believe they were shutting down the fan theory that Regina would've raised Emma.

 

That was a theory? Ah, the things I missed not being in the fandom until this March-ish.

 

I wonder what that ship name would have been then? Toddler Queen?

[Stuffy]

Yep. I had heard the theory before but can't remember if the question was answered on twitter or something like TVline/TV guide.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Stuffy

[Wandering1]

"I think Charming got confirmation of this when knights tried to run the kid through in his arms. He was able to be absolutely certain the baby would have died if he hadn't put her in the wardrobe right that moment. The choice Snow and Charming made was for Emma not to die. Emma being a cursed baby was never an actual canon option Regina was willing to have happen. In Regina's perfect world, Emma would have been ripped away via death."

 

I didn't see it that way. Especially since Charming was fighting all those guys with the baby in his arms. Emma was more likely to die being sent to Maine by herself. The point of the original post was that Regina was not responsible for Emma growing up without her mother. Snow, Charming, Gepetto and the Blue Fairy made that decision.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Wandering1

[Dani-Ellie]

They made that decision as a direct result of Regina's threat, though. It's not like they all decided to send Emma away in the wardrobe for shits and grins or for some kind of social experiment or something. The choice they were left with was to send Emma through the wardrobe or let her die at the hands of Regina's guards. Sending the baby through the wardrobe at least gave her a shot, as evidenced by the fact that she's alive today.

 

The fact still remains, though, that Emma going through the wardrobe would never have been an option that needed to be considered if Regina hadn't cursed the land. Regina forced Snow's and Charming's hand.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Wandering1]

"They made that decision as a direct result of Regina's threat, though." Really? When did Regina threaten Gepetto and force him to send Pinochioo through the wardrobe?

Edited June 30, 2014 by Wandering1

[Dani-Ellie]

Regina's curse threatened everybody. Regina's curse displaced the entire Enchanted Forest (except for the area Cora protected, but that was only because Cora protected it). Last I checked, Geppetto lived in the Enchanted Forest.

 

But really, Geppetto is incidental here. The threat was imminent for Emma, and Snow and Charming were reacting to the threat against their baby daughter's life. So yes, Regina is responsible for Emma growing up without her parents because Snow and Charming never would have let her go if their backs weren't up against the wall by Regina's curse.

 

 

 

When did Regina threaten Gepetto and force him to send Pinochioo through the wardrobe?

 

Pinnocchio is actually the second child orphaned by Regina's curse, so thanks for reminding me. Geppetto was saving his family, just as Snow and Charming were saving theirs. Still, none of this saving would have been necessary if Regina hadn't cast the curse.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[FormerMod-a1]

Hello, all. Just a reminder of the Previously.TV social contract. If you aren't able to disagree without attacking fellow posters don't post here. And once you've made your point move on, don't keep restating it trying to change other people's opinions. We don't all have to have the same opinion on Regina.

 

Thanks.

 

Guys!  This was posted just a day ago!  State your point and opinion and move on.  If we need to keep reminding of you this, we will do more than post reminders.   

[yeswedo]

I just moved a bunch of posts to the All Seasons thread. This discussion goes beyond Regina.

[FabulousTater]

Emma would have been placed with whatever family she ended up with. Just like Grace.

The Charmings and their friends and family would have be delayed until the curse was broken. Just like they were in season 1. Only now Emma is still a baby and they get to raise her. The curse didn't age her. The decision to send her away did.

That flies in the face of show canon. Regina sent her black knights to kill baby Emma. It is known. It is fact. It is show canon. She told Rumpel as much when Rumpel told Regina that baby Emma could stop her and we saw  Regina's black knights trying to kill Baby Emma in the pilot. If not for Charming Regina's knights would've skewered infant Emma because Regina ordered them to do so. The show runners (Adam and Eddy) even confirmed that Regina was at the Charming's castle to kill baby Emma. Regina was trying to murder an infant. Period. Full Stop. Become one with that fact because it is a fact. Regina's failure to murder baby Emma doesn't make her any less heinous in my book. And yes, Emma being sent through the wardrobe? Regina's fault. Because Snowing's only other option was to watch Regina kill an infant. Which may be fun times for Crazy Eyes Regina but not everyone gets their jollys from watching babies being slaughtered. 

Edited July 1, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Wandering1]

I don't agree. Once the curse was cast and Emma was trapped in SB with everyone else she would not have been a threat. She could not have broken the curse. So why would Regina kill her? She wouldn't have a reason. Snow wouldn't have known who Emma was in SB. Not even going to argue about the wardrobe again because it was clear in both season 1 and 2 who is to blame for Emma being sent alone, and it wasn't Regina.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Wandering1

[Dani-Ellie]

I don't think Regina would have wanted to take the chance that Emma would have somehow broken the curse after 28 years, even in Eternal Newborn form. The threat was better off eliminated before she had a chance to be a threat, ergo kill the baby. Those guards she sent into the castle didn't seem to me like they were looking to make sure Emma went with them. Those guards were under orders to kill on sight.