S08.E05: The Bells

[Drogo]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If the HS hadn't overplayed his hand and gotten Tommen to ban Trial by Combat

Remember when that little shithead banned TbC, effectively condemning his mother to death...

Truly Myrcella was the only good one. 

[Francie]

1 minute ago, taurusrose said:

Dany made a point of destroying the "master class" to show them who was boss without benefit of trial or discussion.

That's exactly right! Dany has enjoyed flexing and demonstrating her power since the moment she had any power. That dates back to Season 1, when her and Viserys's positions of powers flipped. 

Dany was always benevolent - when she got her way. When she didn't get her way, she could be very destructive and without empathy or sympathy. 

[screamin]

28 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure how much any god was supposed to be involved.   I think it was more like the blood magic that Mirri engaged in.

Well, even if you cut a sentient god who makes decisions as to who deserves what out of the picture, and substitute a blind universal principle of payback, what we have is Dany killing a magically powerful woman who had taken away her future of a hugely powerful child who would eventually wreak widespread horror on innocent and guilty indiscriminately while empowering her. Dany gets back in exchange for this sacrifice - three hugely powerful children with the potential of wreaking widespread horror indiscriminately while empowering her. They DO empower her - and one of them eventually DOES wreak widespread horror on innocent and guilty indiscriminately in the process of satiating her desire for power.

There's an element of knowing choice of this current future for Dany - and an element of Dany owing for the generosity of the universe, in a way she seems destined to pay back in a predictable way. It's elegant foreshadowing of her current end - or it would be, if the showrunners had been less clumsy in carrying it all out.

Edited May 15, 2019 by screamin

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Francie said:

That's exactly right! Dany has enjoyed flexing and demonstrating her power since the moment she had any power. That dates back to Season 1, when her and Viserys's positions of powers flipped. 

Dany was always benevolent - when she got her way. When she didn't get her way, she could be very destructive and without empathy or sympathy. 

But she didn't destroy the whole master class.  She killed 163 of them, a number equal to the innocent children they crucified.   

When she stopped the Khalsar, Viserys made it a point to demonstrate that he had the power (or thought he did) by attacking Dany, grabbing her by the throat and holding his sword to it.   Dany called of the Dothraki and wouldn't let them kill him...or even take an ear to show respect.  She was quite merciful to Viserys.   

[TaurusRose]

1 minute ago, Francie said:

That's exactly right! Dany has enjoyed flexing and demonstrating her power since the moment she had any power. That dates back to Season 1, when her and Viserys's positions of powers flipped. 

Dany was always benevolent - when she got her way. When she didn't get her way, she could be very destructive and without empathy or sympathy. 

I only disagree with this part.  I don't think Daenerys enjoyed demonstrating her power, I'm more of the belief that she didn't mind demonstrating her power.  It's her default.  Whenever I'm driving someplace I'm not familiar with my default is to turn right even when I should be turning left.  I know it's not the same thing, but just a little example to show that a lot of people have a favored response whether it's instinctual or just preferred course of action.  I think Dany's default is "blood and fire."  I think it's really in her genes.  Still, she has tried to hold her worst instincts at bay until the series of events that broke her in Westeros.    

[Francie]

15 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Right.  It was abominable for Ceresei to blow up all the innocent people to destroy her enemies and save herself.  But, for her, it was a necessary abomination.   She didn't do it just for the fun of killing people, like Dany did at KL.  

If the HS hadn't overplayed his hand and gotten Tommen to ban Trial by Combat, only one poor sucker would have had to die at the hands of Ser Gregor.   Of course, the High Sparrow's Cersei problem would have remained.  

Cersei blew up the sept as an act of self-preservation. Good, bad, right, or wrong, her life was on the line.  

For her, personally, it had the added bonus of wiping out nearly all of her enemies. No one in that sept was on her side.  No one in that sept could possibly believe that Cersei was going to get a fair trial. No one could have reasonably believed that they were going to hear an ordered presentation of evidence, and watch it weighed by objective decision makers. The noble people came to see the "evil queen mother" get hers. They came for the spectacle.  Don't go to the shoot out if you don't want to risk getting shot. They sat in the closest rows to Shamu's tank, and wound up wet.  

Interestingly, for the people of King's Landing, Cersei actually got rid of would-be tyrant in the form of the High Sparrow and his destructive little sparrows. 

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Remember when that little shithead banned TbC, effectively condemning his mother to death...

Truly Myrcella was the only good one. 

D&D probably would have turned Myrcella into a homicidal maniac, if they hadn't killed her.  Are there any women on the show who aren't?   Gily, I guess.  Missandei, but her last word was, "dracarys".  

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, Francie said:

Cersei blew up the sept as an act of self-preservation. Good, bad, right, or wrong, her life was on the line.  

For her, personally, it had the added bonus of wiping out nearly all of her enemies. No one in that sept was on her side.  No one in that sept could possibly believe that Cersei was going to get a fair trial. No one could have reasonably believed that they were going to hear an ordered presentation of evidence, and watch it weighed by objective decision makers. The noble people came to see the "evil queen mother" get hers. They came for the spectacle.  Don't go to the shoot out if you don't want to risk getting shot. They sat in the closest rows to Shamu's tank, and wound up wet.  

Interestingly, for the people of King's Landing, Cersei actually got rid of would-be tyrant in the form of the High Sparrow and his destructive little sparrows. 

Well, the verdict would have been fair, regardless of whether the trial was.  Cersei was guilty of everything she was accused of and more.  

But, as you said, it was primarily an act of self-preservation, which makes it at least somewhat less heinous than Dany's wanton mass murder.   

The High Sparrow was a bit hard to figure out.  He might have been just as bad of a tyrant or worse than Cersei, but he also expressed a desire to empower the small folk and as Dany put it, break the wheel.

I never quite knew if he was a revolutionary using religious fanaticism as a tool or a religious fanatic using revolution as a tool, or a bit of both.   

Edited May 15, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Francie]

8 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But she didn't destroy the whole master class.  She killed 163 of them, a number equal to the innocent children they crucified.   

The takeaway from Dany's decision to randomly pick 163 masters is that she didn't care if any particular one took part in the decision or didn't.  Now there's justification that those who voted against didn't do enough to stop it.  

When I hear those arguments, I immediately think of whether any American who can vote should be held accountable for 60 U.S. Senators voting to go to war. Or is there a recognition that one does not have power to override the majority in a democracy?

Quote

 She was quite merciful to Viserys.   



 

 

Until she wasn't. Her cold "he was no dragon" was the first tell of who she really was.

What this debate then always turns to is whether Dany was justified in being so cold-hearted about because of Viserys's treatment of it.  That's not the point. The point was that "merciful" Dany turned cold as ice and was dismissive when Viserys was killed. That indeed was a marker of her personality and what actions she would take, if given the chance, in the future. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Francie
trying to get my post out of the "quote" section. But no success.

[TaurusRose]

7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Well, the verdict would have been fair, regardless of whether the trial was.  Cersei was guilty of everything she was accused of and more.  

But, as you said, it was primarily an act of self-preservation, which makes it at least somewhat less heinous than Dany's wanton mass murder.   

The High Sparrow was a bit hard to figure out.  He might have been just as bad of a tyrant or worse than Cersei, but he also expressed a desire to empower the small folk and as Dany put it, break the wheel.

I never quite knew if he was a revolutionary using religious fanaticism as a tool or a religious fanatic using revolution as a tool, or a bit of both.   

Not really.  Cersei had another choice.  She could have gotten the hell out of Dodge, but her pride, greed and hatefulness wouldn't allow that. Mass murder is mass murder, the reasons for it don't make it any less.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Francie said:

Again, so much justification for her actions. 

The takeaway from Dany's decision to randomly pick 163 masters is that she didn't care if any particular one took part in the decision or didn't.  Now there's justification that those who voted against didn't do enough to stop it.  

When I hear those arguments, I immediately think of whether any American who can vote should be held accountable for 60 U.S. Senators voting to go to war. Or is there a recognition that one does not have power to override the majority in a democracy?

All the Masters were people of power in Meereen.  It would be more like holding the 40 Senators who voted against the crucifixions (but supported slavery and held slaves) along with the 60 who voted for them.

Also, GOT does not take place in modern times, where she would have the resources to know who was guilty and who was not.

I can never understand why people objected to Dany's reaction to Drogo crowning Viserys.  He had just threatened to kill her and her unborn child.   He earned his golden crown.   

[Francie]

 Well, the verdict would have been fair, regardless of whether the trial was.  Cersei was guilty of everything she was accused of and more.

You and I know that because we've seen the show. 

But to the noble lords and ladies who attended - they only thought they knew. It wouldn't have mattered if it was true or not, Cersei would have been convicted and almost certainly executed. 

Plus, Cersei was right that the High Sparrow and the Tyrells were using Tommen. Both would have run roughshod right over him.  Cersei actually was trying to protect her son and get rid of those who were exerting power and influence over him.  But her plan, in that regard, backfired on her. 

[One Tough Cookie]

I  personally think that Missandi's murder pushed her over the edge of reasoning and that's part of her taking out the entire-KL.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, taurusrose said:

Not really.  Cersei had another choice.  She could have gotten the hell out of Dodge, but her pride, greed and hatefulness wouldn't allow that. Mass murder is mass murder, the reasons for it don't make it any less.

I'm not sure Cersei could have escaped.   Maybe if you think it through, she Qyburn and Ser Gregor could have pulled off an escape.  But, I think the writers were sending the message that she was trapped by the HS and was doomed.  

[Francie]

1 minute ago, taurusrose said:

Not really.  Cersei had another choice.  She could have gotten the hell out of Dodge, but her pride, greed and hatefulness wouldn't allow that. Mass murder is mass murder, the reasons for it don't make it any less.

You and I can disagree about whether that other choice was viable.  Running doesn't mean safety.  They might track you down.  In that situation, it may make more sense to turn and take a stand and take them out. 

So, it's not her "pride, greed, and hatefulness" that caused her to dismiss running. It may have been a practical decision that it was not a solution. 

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Right.  It was abominable for Ceresei to blow up all the innocent people to destroy her enemies and save herself.  But, for her, it was a necessary abomination.   She didn't do it just for the fun of killing people, like Dany did at KL.  

If the HS hadn't overplayed his hand and gotten Tommen to ban Trial by Combat, only one poor sucker would have had to die at the hands of Ser Gregor.   Of course, the High Sparrow's Cersei problem would have remained.  

From POV of the dead, it is more cruel to kill people who were least expected, regardless the motivation of the murderer. Both Dany and Cersei are murderers (or is it murderesses ?)    

Per Cersei, she really did not care about the people in the Sept who merely there for the trial (ie. not part of Faith Militants).

Just like Dany did not care about those women and children she BBQ at KL.  I think this is the part that people are having problem with.  Dany was potrayed to care for the slaves etc before, but she abandoned all of that in a span of 10 minutes in 8.05.

Personally I am way pass caring about characters' motivation at this point due to the way season 8 was plotted and written

Edited May 15, 2019 by DarkRaichu
Fixed episode #

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Francie said:

You and I can disagree about whether that other choice was viable.  Running doesn't mean safety.  They might track you down.  In that situation, it may make more sense to turn and take a stand and take them out. 

So, it's not her "pride, greed, and hatefulness" that caused her to dismiss running. It may have been a practical decision that it was not a solution. 

I agree.  I don't think fleeing was supposed to be an option for her.   

[TaurusRose]

5 minutes ago, Francie said:

You and I can disagree about whether that other choice was viable.  Running doesn't mean safety.  They might track you down.  In that situation, it may make more sense to turn and take a stand and take them out. 

So, it's not her "pride, greed, and hatefulness" that caused her to dismiss running. It may have been a practical decision that it was not a solution. 

Okay.  Except she didn't have a problem running when it was clear her ass was grass in the destruction of KL.  And again, her turn and stand took out people who hadn't done a damn thing to Cersei except want to see her get what she so richly deserved.  They may not have been privy to every little wrong doing, but they had seen enough and perhaps experienced enough from her to know she should be on trial.  So excusing her murder of hundreds is just that an excuse to continue being monstrous and steal a throne that wasn't hers. She is no better than Daenerys.

Edited May 15, 2019 by taurusrose

[Francie]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I can never understand why people objected to Dany's reaction to Drogo crowning Viserys.  He had just threatened to kill her and her unborn child.   He earned his golden crown.   

I could understand Dany being relieved that the man who just menacingly threatened her child was removed as a threat, and even killed.  

The point is that she is cold and dismissive.  "He was no dragon," is her thought. Not, "Whew, I'm safe." 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, DarkRaichu said:

From POV of the dead, it is more cruel to kill people who were least expected, regardless the motivation of the murderer. Both Dany and Cersei are murderers (or is it murderesses ?)    

Per Cersei, she really did not care about the people in the Sept who merely there for the trial (ie. not part of Faith Militants).

Just like Dany did not care about those women and children she BBQ at KL.  I think this is the part that people are having problem with.  Dany was potrayed to care for the slaves etc before, but she abandoned all of that in a span of 10 minutes in 8.03.

Personally I am way pass caring about characters' motivation at this point due to the way season 8 was plotted and written

Cersei killing everyone in the SoB to save herself and seize power was totally in character for her, and brilliant  writing. 

Dany slaughtering tens of thousands of innocents, for no reason, was totally out of character, and terrible writing.   

[Francie]

3 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Okay.  Except she didn't have a problem running when it was clear her ass was grass in the destruction of KL. 

Literally a building was crumbling around her. 

A bit different situation. 

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, taurusrose said:

Okay.  Except she didn't have a problem running when it was clear her ass was grass in the destruction of KL. 

Is it a good thing or bad that Dany gave her a lot of time to finally realize the her life was on the line ??

D&D's answer would most likely be: "who cares, we got cool dragon fire action out of it" 😄

[Francie]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree.  I don't think fleeing was supposed to be an option for her.   

It's interesting what we agree and disagree on. I'm enjoying the debate. 

[steelyis]

7 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Not really.  Cersei had another choice.  She could have gotten the hell out of Dodge, but her pride, greed and hatefulness wouldn't allow that. Mass murder is mass murder, the reasons for it don't make it any less.

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure Cersei could have escaped.   Maybe if you think it through, she Qyburn and Ser Gregor could have pulled off an escape.  But, I think the writers were sending the message that she was trapped by the HS and was doomed.  

1 minute ago, Francie said:

Literally a building was crumbling around her. 

A bit different situation. 

Cersei was a dumpster fire of a woman, but she would never, ever abandon her children, not even to save her own life.

[TaurusRose]

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

Literally a building was crumbling around her. 

A bit different situation. 

Not really.  One is literal, the other was figurative.  Let's agree to disagree.  

[Bryce Lynch]

10 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Okay.  Except she didn't have a problem running when it was clear her ass was grass in the destruction of KL.  And again, her turn and stand took out people who hadn't done a damn thing to Cersei except want to see her get what she so richly deserved.  They may not have been privy to every little wrong doing, but they had seen enough and perhaps experienced enough from her to know she should be on trial.  So excusing her murder of hundreds is just that an excuse to continue being monstrous and steal a throne that wasn't hers. She is no better than Daenerys.

I thought Cersei fleeing at the end of episode 5 was out of character, especially given that she would have no viable hope of retaking the IT.  "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.  There is no middle ground."  

A tactical retreat I could understand.  But fleeing off to Pentos or somewhere like a refugee was not the Cersei I knew and hated. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Francie]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I thought Cersei fleeing at the end of episode 5 was out of character, especially given that she would have no viable hope of retaking the IT.  "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.  There is no middle ground."  

A tactical retreat I could understand.  But fleeing off to Pentos or somewhere like a refugee was not the Cersei I knew and hated. 

I don't necessarily know that Cersei knew that was the plan or was agreeing to it. She just needed to get out the crumbling building to live to see another day.  Once in the boat, all bets may have been off. 

[DarkRaichu]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Dany slaughtering tens of thousands of innocents, for no reason, was totally out of character, and terrible writing.   

The tragic part is, a little tweak in writing / plotting could have made this last season much better.  For example, I would have been ok with Rhaegal killed during the attack at KL in 8.05, making the death of yet another child the last straw that broke Dany.

[Drogo]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, as you said, it was primarily an act of self-preservation, which makes it at least somewhat less heinous than Dany's wanton mass murder.

Daenerys sees burning KL as a necessary evil, an act of self preservation. 

• Her advisor was trying to kill her, at the advice of her Hand as far as she knows.
• Her Hand has freed his traitorous brother to continue his mission of helping their sister escape (we don't know if Daenerys knows this or not.)
• Her lover's sisters are actively trying to overthrow her.
• Her lover doesn't want to kiss her anymore because he's her aunt, but it's not in her nature to understand why. 

She's just lost her oldest friend, her closest confidante, thousands of her soldiers and two of her children.  She is alone, but she is the last dragon. 

Daenerys burnt KL as a message to those who would betray her:  Let it be fear. 

She made sure the Starks will think long and hard before pursuing their anti-Daenerys agenda because if KL can go down in 20 minutes, shitty-ass Winterfell should only take 10.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Francie said:

I don't necessarily know that Cersei knew that was the plan or was agreeing to it. She just needed to get out the crumbling building to live to see another day.  Once in the boat, all bets may have been off. 

The whole episode was written badly.  Cersei, Qyburn and Euron would have had a better plan and they would have either won, or gone down fighting.  It was so ridiculous how the balance of power between scorpions and dragons totally flipped from one episode to the next.  

[Francie]

32 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I only disagree with this part.  I don't think Daenerys enjoyed demonstrating her power, I'm more of the belief that she didn't mind demonstrating her power.  It's her default.  Whenever I'm driving someplace I'm not familiar with my default is to turn right even when I should be turning left.  I know it's not the same thing, but just a little example to show that a lot of people have a favored response whether it's instinctual or just preferred course of action.  I think Dany's default is "blood and fire."  I think it's really in her genes.  Still, she has tried to hold her worst instincts at bay until the series of events that broke her in Westeros.    

On no, she enjoyed it. From taunting the sell sword leaders in her tent with the dragons ("But you promised we'd be safe!") to her "Anything they want" response to Sansa about what dragons ate. Watch the show again. Dany smirked her way through a lot of it. 

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

The whole episode was written badly.  Cersei, Qyburn and Euron would have had a better plan and they would have either won, or gone down fighting.  It was so ridiculous how the balance of power between scorpions and dragons totally flipped from one episode to the next.  

You and I absolutely agree on that. I mean, how on earth had Qyburn not already invented a helicopter/submarine hybrid.  For a man so smart, I was surprised he had no escape plan. 

Also, Cersei has an entire Golden Company of soldiers. And none are around her to protect her? 

The whole staging of the war was absolutely ridiculous. 

[Francie]

2 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Daenerys sees burning KL as a necessary evil, an act of self preservation. 

No. She didn't. 

She thought herself justified for all the reasons you described. But she never once believed her life was on the line. 

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Drogo said:

Daenerys sees burning KL as a necessary evil, an act of self preservation. 

• Her advisor was trying to kill her, at the advice of her Hand as far as she knows.
• Her Hand has freed his traitorous brother to continue his mission of helping their sister escape (we don't know if Daenerys knows this or not.)
• Her lover's sisters are actively trying to overthrow her.
• Her lover doesn't want to kiss her anymore because he's her aunt, but it's not in her nature to understand why. 

She's just lost her oldest friend, her closest confidante, thousands of her soldiers and two of her children.  She is alone, but she is the last dragon. 

Daenerys burnt KL as a message to those who would betray her:  Let it be fear. 

She made sure the Starks will think long and hard before pursuing their anti-Daenerys agenda because if KL can go down in 20 minutes, shitty-ass Winterfell should only take 10.

Meh, she just could have burned everyone who betrayed her or who she believed had betrayed her.  Wouldn't that send a clearer message?

BTW, now that you bring up Winterfell, it is funny that the power of dragonfire and ice dragonfire seems to fluctuate so much.   

The NK took down a huge chunk of the wall in seconds with his ice dragon, but did only moderate damage to WF in much more time.  Dany destroyed a much larger and sturdier castle in KL very quickly.  

[Heckler52317]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

give Drogon the God Mode upgrade.

His fire DID seem even more powerful- sundering ships and demolishing buildings and the castle. 

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Francie said:

On no, she enjoyed it. From taunting the sell sword leaders in her tent with the dragons ("But you promised we'd be safe!") to her "Anything they want" response to Sansa about what dragons ate. Watch the show again. Dany smirked her way through a lot of it. 

You and I absolutely agree on that. I mean, how on earth had Qyburn not already invented a helicopter/submarine hybrid.  For a man so smart, I was surprised he had no escape plan. 

Also, Cersei has an entire Golden Company of soldiers. And none are around her to protect her? 

The whole staging of the war was absolutely ridiculous. 

I though her taunting the leaders of the Second Sons was appropriate flexing.

Her "whatever they want" was a witty response to Sansa's impudent whinging.  

[Heckler52317]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

BTW, now that you bring up Winterfell, it is funny that the power of dragonfire and ice dragonfire seems to fluctuate so much.   

The NK took down a huge chunk of the wall in seconds with his ice dragon, but did only moderate damage to WF in much more time.  Dany destroyed a much larger and sturdier castle in KL very quickly.  

As a lifelong Dungeons and Dragons player (40 years now-yeesh. I predate the fancy dice {chits in a cup}) the inconsistency and seeming lack of rules has really bothered me- this episode as well as The Battle of Winterfell especially

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, Francie said:

No. She didn't. 

She thought herself justified for all the reasons you described. But she never once believed her life was on the line. 

And when she's overthrown for all the reasons I described, what do you suppose happens to Daenerys and Drogon?  

Thanked for their assistance with the AotD and sent on their merry way? 

[Francie]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I though her taunting the leaders of the Second Sons was appropriate flexing.

Her "whatever they want" was a witty response to Sansa's impudent whinging.  

The question was whether she enjoyed the flexing and only did it out of obligation. She clearly enjoyed it. 

Second, Dany's reaction to Sansa's appropriate question was callous and childish in light of this (and also Dany thought herself so smug and powerful in that moment, which was my comment):

[Francie]

2 minutes ago, Drogo said:

And when she's overthrown for all the reasons I described, what do you suppose happens to Daenerys and Drogon?  

Thanked for their assistance with the AotD and sent on their merry way? 

She's going to be overthrown as a direct result of what she did at King's Landing, not in spite of it. 

And if there is any person who had the means to run away instead of burn down an entire city, it is Dany. 

If anyone had an alternative other than burn down the entire city, it was Dany. 

[DarkRaichu]

12 minutes ago, Heckler52317 said:

His fire DID seem even more powerful- sundering ships and demolishing buildings and the castle. 

Yes. In 8.03 we were shown dragons (both zombied and alive) needed to somewhat slow down to do powerful flame and the flame only went on a somewhat straight line.  In 8.05, we were shown the Iron Fleet ships were ALL OVER the bay, yet Drogon could somehow burned them all

Plus nobody could even nick Drogon with a lucky scorpion shot

If that was not a God Mode, I do not know what is 😄

Edited May 15, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[Drogo]

Just now, Francie said:

4 minutes ago, Drogo said:

And when she's overthrown for all the reasons I described, what do you suppose happens to Daenerys and Drogon?  

Thanked for their assistance with the AotD and sent on their merry way? 

She's going to be overthrown as a direct result of what she did at King's Landing, not in spite of it. 

I think you missed my objective.  I was replying to your assertion that "Cersei burning the sept was an act of self-preservation but Dany burning KL was not." 

Dany absolutely burnt KL to retain her power and position via instilling fear in her subjects.  The only way for Daenerys to stay alive at this point is by retaining her power and position.  Self-preservation. 

[izabella]

44 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I can never understand why people objected to Dany's reaction to Drogo crowning Viserys.  He had just threatened to kill her and her unborn child.   He earned his golden crown.   

His death was spectacular and I loved it.  I did see her reaction to it it as a sign of “something” being “off” about Dany, though, because it was a spectacularly cruel way to die, and to see someone die that way really would have been more stunning than what we saw from her.  But she ate a horse heart and was fireproof  so I was not entirely shocked at her blasé reaction.

Edited May 15, 2019 by izabella

[Affogato]

3 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Yes. In 8.03 we were shown dragons (both zombied and alive) needed to somewhat slow down to do powerful flame and the flame only went on a somewhat straight line.  In 8.05, we were shown the Iron Fleet ships were ALL OVER the bay, yet Drogon could somehow burned them all

Plus nobody could even nick Drogon with a lucky scorpion shot

If that was not a God Mode, I do not know what is 😄

Once rhaegar is dead Drogan now commnads all the magic? 

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, izabella said:

His death was spectacular and I loved it.  I did see her reaction to it it as a sign of “something” being “off” about Dany, though, because it was a spectacularly cruel way to die, and to see someone die that way really would have been more stunning than what we saw from her.  But she ate a horse heart and was fireproof  so I was not entirely shocked at her blasé reaction.

I saw it as her having no more love for her weak, treacherous brother and her having been toughened up by being a Dotraki.   I think the words, "He was no dragon...." were advancing and foreshadowing her "Unburnt" mythology.  

[Francie]

9 minutes ago, Drogo said:

I think you missed my objective.  I was replying to your assertion that "Cersei burning the sept was an act of self-preservation but Dany burning KL was not." 

Dany absolutely burnt KL to retain her power and position via instilling fear in her subjects.  The only way for Daenerys to stay alive at this point is by retaining her power and position.  Self-preservation. 

I got your point. I disagree with it. 

Dany has more options for staying alive. She has a dragon. She has Daario.  She's weakened her Westerosi enemies to the point that, should she suddenly leave, they'd have to spend the next generation rebuilding and won't have time or resources to go tracking Dany down.  

If Cersei had cut and run in Season 6, she'd be leaving a powerful network of wealthy people (The Tyrells) behind. They'd have Tommen, and they'd be concerned about Cersei trying to re-establish contact with him. They'd see her as a continued threat, and would have tried to track her down and eradicate that threat. 

Dany had viable options. 

Cersei did not. 

[Bali]

On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 5:34 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

Well, I was talking about Sandor and Gregor, but feel free to run wild with the analogy. :)

I think Rhaegal would be the first Death Star, which I guess would make Urine, Luke Skywalker.  

Alright- I've had ENOUGH! THEM'S FIGHTING WORDS! Urine is NOT Luke- He is JarJar at best!

[proserpina65]

17 hours ago, millennium said:

I tend to believe two wrongs don't make a right.   By throwing feces at a naked, incarcerated woman, hurling degrading sexual insults, exposing their penises at her, etc., the fine citizens of King's Landing somewhat justified Cersei's hatred and mistreatment of them. 

A fraction of the citizens of King's Landing, and it was Cersei so I really didn't give a shit.

[Wulfsige]

3 minutes ago, izabella said:

His death was spectacular and I loved it.  I did see her reaction to it it as a sign of “something” being “off” about Dany, though, because it was a spectacularly cruel way to die, and to see someone die that way really would have been more stung than what we saw from her.  But she ate a horse heart and was fireproof  so I was not entirely shocked at her blasé reaction.

Agree. I could have seen something like, ‘I’m relieved he’s dead, he was crazy, abusive, and a threat to me and my child’, but it seemed that her focus was that he was unworthy to live because he wasn’t a ‘true dragon’. Which suggests that if he had had real power, like she now does, with a dragon and the capability to be a tyrant, she would have okay with following him, whatever he did.

[Drogo]

Just now, Francie said:

I got your point. I disagree with it. 

Dany has more options for staying alive. She has a dragon. She has Daario.  She's weakened her Westerosi enemies to the point that, should she suddenly leave, they'd have to spend the next generation rebuilding and won't have time or resources to go tracking Dany down.  

Oh okay, so you think she should have just run away.  I disagree.

Abandoning her army seems a poor choice for a conquering Queen who has every ability to take over Westeros as intended.  

[Francie]

Just now, proserpina65 said:

A fraction of the citizens of King's Landing, and it was Cersei so I really didn't give a shit.

No pun intended?

Just now, Drogo said:

Oh okay, so you think she should have just run away.  I disagree.

Abandoning her army seems a poor choice for a conquering Queen who has every ability to take over Westeros as intended.  

I never said she "should" run away.  She had a choice. She had a lot of choices. She made one where she burned men, women, and children to a crisp. I personally didn't think that was the right one. 

It certainly wasn't a necessary one.