S12.E21: The Plagiarism Schism

[DrSpaceman]

11 hours ago, ChitChat said:

I don't mind the Nobel plotline.  I thought last night's episode was pretty funny.  Amy never fails to crack me up with her facial expressions.  

Weirder things have happened.  Obama won one fairly quickly.   Anything out of the norm seems possible.  😉  

Yeah, won't get into the politics of it, but that was a peace prize nobel though, they tend to come soon after the events happen. 

Science nobels usually do happen years after the initial theory/discovery, often a decade or so. 

I don't mind the story, its kind of funny, but it is happening too quickly. 

I don't really know how one would fake a thesis though, unless he just had somebody else write it.  At some point you'd think at that level in the scientific community you'd be found out for a fraud. However, if anyone has ever read James Watson's first hand account of the discovery of the Double Helix, its not a particularly flattering portrait of himself, even though he wrote the book.  You find it hard to believe he could stumble onto something so important like that, so who knows.?  And if you have ever heard him talk, or met him (James Watson), the book is consistent with his persona certainly (meaning.......he is an ass)

So Raj was on the show for what, two scenes?  Had maybe 10 lines the whole show? 

I know the show is a cash cow and will be for years in reruns and its great they are keeping the salaries pretty fair between them all, but you consider how much some of them are making for doing so little in some of these episodes and it boggles the mind. 

In the same way Howard shouldn't have cared so much about who it was Bernadette was talking about, with it being so long ago and not mattering so much, if Bernadette was going to bring up something like that, she might as well have just told him who it was.  What is the harm now?

[possibilities]

I was afraid we were going to find out Bernadette made that whole thing up, just to end the conversation about the worst thing she'd ever done. It was a story that would sate his curiosity and flatter him at the same time!

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, rmontro said:

I imagine they will win the Nobel on the last show

Or  they could write it as Shamy hoping for a Nobel in the future — like maybe just being happy to work together toward that end.

[ams1001]

6 hours ago, possibilities said:

I was afraid we were going to find out Bernadette made that whole thing up, just to end the conversation about the worst thing she'd ever done. It was a story that would sate his curiosity and flatter him at the same time!

Frankly I find it hard to believe that's the worst thing she's done, considering the things she's said about some of her work.

Edited May 4, 2019 by ams1001

[HouseofBeck]

21 hours ago, shura said:

It's a paradox then, isn't it?  Exposing the truth about Pemberton would make Sheldon and Amy look selfish, so they decline to do it for the selfish reason that they don't want to look that way.

And really, why should it make them look bad?  I know it would, some/many people would say "oh, they are only exposing him because it benefits them," but I think it should not be taken that way.  The truth is the truth, it has to be judged on its own merits.  If a person did something that really disqualifies them, then it shouldn't matter one bit whether it happened 20 years ago or how the truth came to be known.  I wonder why society doesn't work like this.

Gotta love the episode that makes you think about these things.  Chuck Lorre, who knew?

I agree. I don't care if the world doesn't currently seem to work this way, cultural mores evolve all the time. One of my favorite career advice blogs likes to say that we need to stop calling it being a "tattletale" if we expose something unethical /similar that happens in the business world. We're adults. This isn't the playground with its playground "rules" that enable the kids doing something wrong or harmful. Who then grow up to depend on the same caveats (and often get them). 

I generalize majorly, I know. But I've been ticked that Amy's outburst is still considered a Terrible Thing by all the characters in the show. Arrgh.

This Nobel plot dominates so much. I was proud of Leonard, though. His character growth seems most promising, especially as they continue to keep Penny in the "Durr, science is boring and hard!" mindset. I'd like to be surprised at the end, too. 

[shapeshifter]

17 minutes ago, HouseofBeck said:

I agree. I don't care if the world doesn't currently seem to work this way, cultural mores evolve all the time. One of my favorite career advice blogs likes to say that we need to stop calling it being a "tattletale" if we expose something unethical /similar that happens in the business world. We're adults. This isn't the playground with its playground "rules" that enable the kids doing something wrong or harmful. Who then grow up to depend on the same caveats (and often get them). 

I generalize majorly, I know. But I've been ticked that Amy's outburst is still considered a Terrible Thing by all the characters in the show. Arrgh

Thank you, @HouseofBeck, for giving concrete reasons to support my little outburst above. I hope all the "snitches with stitches in ditches " remarks were typed with tongue in cheek. I don't know if super assymetry being proven by someone incapable of creating his own work (what plagiarizers tend to be) could ultimately cause great harm, but Amy's field of neuroscience brings to mind my oft-muttered saying when I make a mistake that "it's a good thing I'm not a brain surgeon," and Sheldon is a physicist, as in those who brought us the atomic bomb. And now I'm wondering if the person responsible for approving the software and design of the Boeing 737 Max was known to be incompetent, and I'd really love to see Amy use that as an example of why it's wrong to suck up to unqualified so-called scientists in order to clinch a Nobel.

[Katy M]

Sometimes there's a fine line between tattling and exposing something that needs to be exposed.  If you have a co-worker who gets in 5 minutes late one day, and you point that out, I would call that tattling.  If the same co-worker is embezzling money, then tell.  It is hard to sometimes tell exactly where the line is, but plagiarizing on something as major as a thesis fits into not tattling, IMO.

[Homily]

12 hours ago, ChitChat said:

At least there are some things of Howard's in the living room: his astronaut picture, and I believe there are some other memorabilia of his in the living room, but yeah, she totally wears the pants in the family.  I haven't enjoyed seeing them make her such a shrew in many of the episodes

Maybe Howard is like my husband (and most men I know for that matter)?  "Curtains, did we get new curtains,  Nice."  The day he wants to be involved in choosing the household decor will be the day I win the lottery.  Here's hoping 🙂 ,

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, Homily said:

Maybe Howard is like my husband (and most men I know for that matter)?  "Curtains, did we get new curtains,  Nice."  The day he wants to be involved in choosing the household decor will be the day I win the lottery.  Here's hoping 🙂 ,

Yeah, I can't imagine my dad getting excited about picking out furnishings.  Cars, yes.  Throw pillows, no.  He does have a collection of miniature cars in the living room, though, so it's not like he's banned from decorating.

[Bort]

15 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I hope all the "snitches with stitches in ditches " remarks were typed with tongue in cheek.

Yes and no. I definitely don’t see anything wrong with exposing someone’s detrimental wrongdoing, but the tattletale thing is instilled in children because without it, they can and will go tattling for every tiny infraction. It’s supposed to teach them the big picture, to be able to tell the difference between something big and something piddly. It also teaches them to be able to work out their issues themselves without needing an adult to always intervene. Most people learn this, but not everyone.

[Frost]

I thought the materials proving Pemberton plagiarized his thesis/dissertation was tailor made to be handed over to President Siebert, as opposed to Leonard trying to leak it himself.  Siebert should be well versed and well positioned in how to navigate the political minefields around exposing that sort of thing.  Although, he's been pretty incompetent at handling the two idiot's campaign for the Nobel up to date.  How did they write up their Nobel submission if they don't even know what super asymmetry is?  Siebert should have been able to rip their credibility to shreds even without the plagiarism.

Having two jokers prove Amy and Sheldon's theory accidentally should have been a one and done episode.  The writers could still have done the schmoozing of the past Nobel winners who Sheldon has pissed off episode.  That would have left more episodes for building up Raj and Anu and finalizing the Stuart storylines.  Oh well.  There must be a reason I'm not a TV writer!

I liked Leonard's growth the past two episodes.  It's nice to see him becoming more self confident.  Hopefully his mother's appearance next week provides the final proof that he can stand up for himself.

[Chit Chat]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Or  they could write it as Shamy hoping for a Nobel in the future — like maybe just being happy to work together toward that end.

Even if it doesn't seem plausible for them to win the Nobel (if they do) this quickly, maybe the show will end up fast forwarding and saying something like "Amy & Sheldon, or just Amy or Sheldon finally won the coveted Nobel Prize."  I would be fine with that.  

The thing with Sheldon & Amy's dilemma about telling on Dr. Pemberton is that not only would it affect the Nobel, but it would also potentially destroy his career - which it did.  I think they were right in questioning themselves about how to handle it.  I agree with others though that the simplest solution would've been to tell President Siebert.  

[LoneHaranguer]

19 hours ago, DrSpaceman said:

Science nobels usually do happen years after the initial theory/discovery, often a decade or so. 

It may not take long if the experiment is easy to replicate.

[DrSpaceman]

Whether the Nobel story is moving along too fast, or too long, and in my opinion it is both those things, I still think the best ending would have been for Sheldon and Amy to be chosen to go off on the Mars mission they applied for several years ago. 

Also I rewatched it  and Raj was in one scene with Howard for a minute or two and then had one line the rest of the show. 

A million dollars for that. 

Not to mention, as others have pointed out, they seem to be shortening these episodes all they can.  Seriously, do we need a "recap" at the beginning of these episodes to remember what had happened before?  This isn't Game of Thrones, I think we can keep up

[shapeshifter]

47 minutes ago, DrSpaceman said:

Whether the Nobel story is moving along too fast, or too long, and in my opinion it is both those things, I still think the best ending would have been for Sheldon and Amy to be chosen to go off on the Mars mission they applied for several years ago. 

Good point. Maybe they can still go to Mars? (ignoring recent results of the astronaut twin study indicating that the human body may not be able to withstand such long periods in space {ignoring because maybe better radiation-blocking materials will be developed})
  
  
  

50 minutes ago, DrSpaceman said:

Not to mention, as others have pointed out, they seem to be shortening these episodes all they can.  Seriously, do we need a "recap" at the beginning of these episodes to remember what had happened before?  This isn't Game of Thrones, I think we can keep up

I was surprised when I had to download the last episode (because CBS's signal crapped out in the rain) that it was 19 minutes instead of 17, so it seems the GoT-style recaps are filling time that was added.

[EllenB]

On 5/4/2019 at 8:59 AM, kariyaki said:

Yes and no. I definitely don’t see anything wrong with exposing someone’s detrimental wrongdoing, but the tattletale thing is instilled in children because without it, they can and will go tattling for every tiny infraction. It’s supposed to teach them the big picture, to be able to tell the difference between something big and something piddly. It also teaches them to be able to work out their issues themselves without needing an adult to always intervene. Most people learn this, but not everyone.

But it doesn't do that.  All it does is teach children that if someone does something wrong, it's just as bad to tell on them.  That's how you get people who are afraid to report abuse.  Its stupid and dangerous and gives bullies (and worse) power over others.

[Katy M]

25 minutes ago, EllenB said:

But it doesn't do that.  All it does is teach children that if someone does something wrong, it's just as bad to tell on them.  That's how you get people who are afraid to report abuse.  Its stupid and dangerous and gives bullies (and worse) power over others.

Only if you punish, or admonish, children for reporting bullying, abuse or something major. If you're just admonishing them to stop telling you that their brother is "looking at them" or so and so cut in line, or that someone was passing a note in class, things that are either none of their business or something they should learn to resolve on their own.  Plus, tattletales (again reporting minor infractions) generally become outcasts among the kids, so it's really for their own good.  

[Sunshinegal]

The Nobel Prize arc lessened my enjoyment of these last episodes.  I liked Sean Astin and Kal Penn but this storyline, personally didn't do it for me.  I did like seeing Kripke though especially since I love his character from Speechless.

I'm glad this storyline finished and won't dominate the next three episodes which will give us the endgame and hopefully some good moments.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

7 hours ago, EllenB said:

But it doesn't do that.  All it does is teach children that if someone does something wrong, it's just as bad to tell on them.  That's how you get people who are afraid to report abuse.  Its stupid and dangerous and gives bullies (and worse) power over others.

Only if you punish, or admonish, children for reporting bullying, abuse or something major. If you're just admonishing them to stop telling you that their brother is "looking at them" or so and so cut in line, or that someone was passing a note in class, things that are either none of their business or something they should learn to resolve on their own.  Plus, tattletales (again reporting minor infractions) generally become outcasts among the kids, so it's really for their own good.  

The problem is that kids tend to defer to the bully's insistence on not "tattling." Little members of the Future Sociopaths Association can be very convincing, as are the full grown ones.
  
  
  

37 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

I'm glad this storyline finished

On May 3, 2019 at 12:02 PM, Artsda said:

So glad the Nobel stuff is over, that lunch where the 2 turned on each other was the best of the episode.

On May 2, 2019 at 7:37 PM, Snow Apple said:

I'm just glad it's over.

I didn't think this was the end of the Nobel plot, or even the end of Pemberton and Campbell. Am I wrong? Never mind. Don't answer that. I can wait to see.

[Homily]

I think it's definitely the end of Pemberton and Campbell,  I don't care if Shamy doesn't get the Nobel I did care if they lost it because of cheating so I'm glad this little diversion has run its course.

[possibilities]

I figure some other team entirely gets the prize, for some unrelated discovery.

But I don't write this show, so I'm probably wrong.

---

I'm actually a little frustrated that they are finally doing some character growth and development and it's gotten interesting-- like seeing Leonard decide to stop being a compulsive pleaser, and Sheldon learning to shut up and keep his foot out of his mouth (and give in sometimes on things he wants, like ownership of "the best spot on the couch")-- and it's all being rushed so it won't really get to be enjoyed. I would have liked to see how the entire group dynamic shifts with Leonard being less submissive and Sheldon being more considerate.

But I guess the show depended on a formula, and maybe most people wouldn't have wanted to see it change, so they saved all this for a quick good-bye.

[chaifan]

On 5/4/2019 at 10:19 AM, Frost said:

I liked Leonard's growth the past two episodes.  It's nice to see him becoming more self confident.  Hopefully his mother's appearance next week provides the final proof that he can stand up for himself.

Here's how I'd like to see Leonard's final on-screen scene with Beverly:  Beverly does/says something (again) to totally put down Leonard.  Leonard stands up for himself - not in whiny way, but in a very adult, definitive - yet still somewhat respectful to his mother - way.  Something along the lines of "treat me like a full fledged adult or that's the end of our relationship".  Beverly pauses, nods, and says "I've been waiting 40 years for one of you to say that.  You're now my favorite."  Maybe even throws in a hug.  Wait, I take that back, that's one step too far. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

 I haven't enjoyed seeing them make her such a shrew in many of the episodes. 

Whether or not Bernadette is a "shrew" is subjective but it seems like Howard needs a dominant partner just to keep his worst tendencies in check. If you go back and watch pre-Bernadette episodes, Howard was a much more objectionable and inappropriate character much of the time. He wouldn't really fly in the #meToo era. Bernadette has grounded him and helped him mature.

[welnoc]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Whether or not Bernadette is a "shrew" is subjective but it seems like Howard needs a dominant partner just to keep his worst tendencies in check. If you go back and watch pre-Bernadette episodes, Howard was a much more objectionable and inappropriate character much of the time. He wouldn't really fly in the #meToo era. Bernadette has grounded him and helped him mature.

I do hope you're not suggesting that any female who is the "dominant" partner is automatically a shrew. 

[ProfCrash]

11 hours ago, welnoc said:

I do hope you're not suggesting that any female who is the "dominant" partner is automatically a shrew. 

I think the term is in quotes is an indication that the poster doesn't see Bernadette as a shrew and is simply using a term/phrase that others have used.

I don't think Bernadette is a shrew, I do think that she treats Howard like a teenager from time to time but I think Howard acts like a teenager from time to time. Howard never fully grew up, his mother was drawing him baths when he was in his 20's and baking him cookies for his friends for gods sake.

So yeah, it is hard for me to be outraged on Howard's behalf because of Howard's behavior. And yes, Howard has matured some but he has plenty of times when he acts like a teenager. And if someone wasn't keeping an eye on finances and the like, Howard would make some pretty awful decisions. Howard has no clue about rent or utilities or those general costs of living because he didn't pay them. He was able to spend his money how ever he wanted without care. I have no idea if he was setting up a retirement fund, I am guessing he did and the money was automatically deducted from his pay check.

But this also the same guy who still has not set up life insurance even though he has two kids and is giggling about it with his friends. I don't trust that he would set up and save money for college or retirement or savings based on how he has spent money and his not getting why life insurance is important.

When Howard shows some sign of being more financially responsible, I can see Bernadette being less controlling with the families money. Right now, Bernadette is the on focused on making sure the family is financially sound. After all, she is the one who worked at the Cheesecake Factory until she got a better job and paid for an apartment and utilities and food.

That said, Howard seems to be a good Dad and a good Husband. He loves his wife and his kids. He is successful in his career and has done some cool things. He has enough money to enjoy his hobbies and to eat out and do the things he enjoys.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I do hope you're not suggesting that any female who is the "dominant" partner is automatically a shrew. 

No but clearly others do, as often as the word is used to describe the character. Personally I find that regrettable. I like Bernadette and I like that she keeps Howard in check.

[Chit Chat]

On 5/6/2019 at 5:53 PM, iMonrey said:

Bernadette has grounded him and helped him mature.

Sometimes she's just a bitch when she lectures Howard, and with how she's spoken to some of her co-workers.   I find it demeaning.  I don't equate being dominant to automatically being a shrew.  I find that the writers took a once sweet, but savvy character and turned her into a screeching harpy in many instances.  She can remain firm in her resolve without coming across as being mean.  I'm all for strong women, but I think the writers did her character a disservice by portraying her in the way they have.   I have found her more and more unlikeable thanks to the writers. 

[LoneHaranguer]

14 hours ago, ChitChat said:

I find that the writers took a once sweet, but savvy character and turned her into a screeching harpy in many instances.

How else are they going to have her doing the "Howard's Mother" voice? 

[Chit Chat]

8 hours ago, LoneHaranguer said:

How else are they going to have her doing the "Howard's Mother" voice? 

Howard's Mom was loud, but not mean.  I think the writers have made Bernadette a little bit mean over the years.  Her co-workers are even afraid of her!   As a petite person myself, I find it insulting when TV writers resort to the stereotypical attitude of  'the little lady has to roar to be taken seriously.'  Not true.  Being kind, but not a doormat, and being confident in myself and standing firm with my boundaries has always worked for me.  YMMV.  

[chaifan]

On 5/6/2019 at 10:35 AM, chaifan said:

Here's how I'd like to see Leonard's final on-screen scene with Beverly:  Beverly does/says something (again) to totally put down Leonard.  Leonard stands up for himself - not in whiny way, but in a very adult, definitive - yet still somewhat respectful to his mother - way.  Something along the lines of "treat me like a full fledged adult or that's the end of our relationship".  Beverly pauses, nods, and says "I've been waiting 40 years for one of you to say that.  You're now my favorite."  Maybe even throws in a hug.  Wait, I take that back, that's one step too far. 

Holy Crap on a Cracker. 

Spoiler

I can't believe how close I was to getting that right.  Damn. 

[Meushell]

Why is reporting fraud even a dilemma? It’s not tattling. It’s stopping someone from screwing over them and continuing to screw over more people in the future. Even if they knew for sure that they were going to win the Nobel Prize, it should be reported. Making it about them deserving the win is short sighted and selfish.

I enjoyed the Howard plot. I agree that being curious isn’t an insult to Bernadette. I think most people would be curious.

I hope the rest start getting their own plots again.

[lh25]

On 5/4/2019 at 6:11 AM, ams1001 said:

Frankly I find it hard to believe that's the worst thing she's done, considering the things she's said about some of her work.

I wonder if she wouldn't think the things she did at work were bad.