Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (2019)

[VCRTracking]

The moving part for me was Billie Lourd doubling for her mom in the flashback scene where Luke trains Leia.

 

 

[Ravenya003]

On 2/4/2020 at 1:45 PM, VCRTracking said:

Anyway I think most of the Reylo shippers upset now are just young, in their teens and 20s at the least. Inexperienced about relationships and naive about love, thinking it can change people. By the time their 40 they'll realize they'll at least see how unhealthy a ship it was and that a redeemed Ben giving up his life was the best end for him. At least I hope so. Can anybody confirm this? Are their any ships you now regret supporting when you were younger?

I don't think it's a matter of age but perspective (which granted, comes with age). I have two good fandom friends that are into "dark ships", but they're mature enough to a) not white-wash or minimize the deeds of the villain, b) not play Ron the Death Eater and make out the heroes to be even WORSE than the villains, and c) know that it's just fiction, and so don't have screaming meltdowns when it turns out that the mass-murderer and the heroine AREN'T going to live happily ever after. They tag their work, stay in their own lanes, and (surprise!) don't harass or get harassed. 

But I don't think it's an age thing, sadly. I mean, this author is clearly a grown woman and she writes Jasmine/Jafar erotica (which okay, fine) but has this to say about Aladdin:

“Aladdin could easily be the villain. He’s a liar, he’s a thief, he engages in slavery—kind of—with the genie. Jafar, while being murderous and evil, is at least moderately upfront about it.”

I just hate this kind of moral relativism. In Star Wars fandom this mentality translated to Kylo being praised for "bridal carrying" Rey after he knocked her unconscious, waiting patiently for her to wake up before torturing her, and arguing that him throwing her into a tree was just self-defense. 

Meanwhile. Finn is practically crucified for grabbing Rey's hand to pull her to safety, because that's an assault on her agency! Also, Finn lied about his identity to Rey, whereas Kylo always told the truth, so who's the REAL villain here?? (No, I'm not making this up. This is actually what they said). 

I think I would have more patience for villain-sympathizing if they didn't ALWAYS feel the need to drag the actual heroes through the mud in an attempt to make murderers look better by comparison.

Also "progressive shipping" is a thing now, where if a person likes a ship, it has to be wedded to some sort of greater cause. I think Reylos settled on their ship being feminist or something, but I honestly don't have the strength to unravel the troll logic behind that. 

But there's the flip side of it too, where "purity politics" require people to go around forbidding people from enjoying or exploring anything in fiction that isn't totally good and pure and vanilla. At the end of the day does it really matter what people think about fictional characters? 

Ultimately I think Kylo Ren came along at the same time as a fandom cultural shift in which people were sick to death of violence-is-love romances/white man redemption arcs AND of being told what they could or couldn't enjoy by a faceless crowd of judgmental peers. Which is why SW fandom ended up so angry and toxic (along with the usual misogynistic/racist trolls).

In short, fandom is a complete shit-storm these days, but I can't say it doesn't fascinate me. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Ravenya003

[VCRTracking]

7 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

I don't think it's a matter of age but perspective (which granted, comes with age). I have two good fandom friends that are into "dark ships", but they're mature enough to a) not white-wash or minimize the deeds of the villain, b) not play Ron the Death Eater and make out the heroes to be even WORSE than the villains, and c) know that it's just fiction, and so don't have screaming meltdowns when it turns out that the mass-murderer and the heroine AREN'T going to live happily ever after. They tag their work, stay in their own lanes, and (surprise!) don't harass or get harassed. 

But I don't think it's an age thing, sadly. I mean, this author is clearly a grown woman and she writes Jasmine/Jafar erotica (which okay, fine) but has this to say about Aladdin:

“Aladdin could easily be the villain. He’s a liar, he’s a thief, he engages in slavery—kind of—with the genie. Jafar, while being murderous and evil, is at least moderately upfront about it.”

I just hate this kind of moral relativism. In Star Wars fandom this mentality translated to Kylo being praised for "bridal carrying" Rey after he knocked her unconscious, waiting patiently for her to wake up before torturing her, and arguing that him throwing her into a tree was just self-defense. 

Meanwhile. Finn is practically crucified for grabbing Rey's hand to pull her to safety, because that's an assault on her agency! Also, Finn lied about his identity to Rey, whereas Kylo always told the truth, so who's the REAL villain here?? (No, I'm not making this up. This is actually what they said). 

I think I would have more patience for villain-sympathizing if they didn't ALWAYS feel the need to drag the actual heroes through the mud in an attempt to make murderers look better by comparison.

Also "progressive shipping" is a thing now, where if a person likes a ship, it has to be wedded to some sort of greater cause. I think Reylos settled on their ship being feminist or something, but I honestly don't have the strength to unravel the troll logic behind that. 

But there's the flip side of it too, where "purity politics" require people to go around forbidding people from enjoying or exploring anything in fiction that isn't totally good and pure and vanilla. At the end of the day does it really matter what people think about fictional characters? 

Ultimately I think Kylo Ren came along at the same time as a fandom cultural shift in which people were sick to death of violence-is-love romances/white man redemption arcs AND of being told what they could or couldn't enjoy by a faceless crowd of judgmental peers. 

In short, fandom is a complete shit-storm these days, but I can't say it doesn't fascinate me. 

I was sympathetic to Reylos for a long time because they were the only ones to get that Kylo was manipulated from an early age by Snoke and wasnt just this entitled brat who turned on his loving parents. Now after TROS came out they're getting on my nerves. FFS Jack from Titanic did nothing wrong and he died! Fictional characters die! I saw a Twitter convo recently where some Reylos complaining that Ben didn't get to have a living reunion with Leia in TROS *facepalm*

[katha]

I'm on record as finding Kylo Ren/Ben Solo a fascinating character, I think Driver got the absolute most out of sometimes rather flimsy writing and I'm totally fine with the kiss. But yeah, the upset with parts of the shippers that there wasn't a fairy tale ending in canon for him is...strange. Idk what they expected. They got the best possible outcome for their ship they were going to get in-universe. Oh well.

Though I have a feeling that some of the shippers also don't really take the canon literally? For them it's basically symbolism for, I don't know, estranged children reconciling with their parents, doing things like breaking off with family/drug use/general bad life decisions that don't involve mass murder and then transfer it to SW? Or the people who want to ponder the actual stakes a possible redemption in canon might include. And I am somewhat sympathetic, as I am always sympathetic, with them getting defensive when "purity policing" (good term!) comes in and tries to tell them they aren't allowed to like the stuff they like. And big parts of fandom have been screaming at them for five years now how stupid they are and how they are to blame for everything bad that happens in the world.

On the other hand, shippers IMO need to just stay in their lane. But they never do. LOL, that's probably universal to all fandoms. You can't make everyone like the stuff you like. You're certainly not entitled to harrass right back, even if you think you've "earned it" because people have been mean to you. So yeah... It's basically another chapter in the endless saga of the toxic Star Wars fandom. And I'd agree and say that most "sides" have really contributed to it and made it a rather unpleasant place if you don't stay in your own corner. And that is sad.

No wonder crew/actors are so wary of the whole thing. And IMO they ALL come across as really wary of the SW fandom. And that's not a nice reputation to have, but probably sadly deserved.

Edited February 11, 2020 by katha

[Zuleikha]

To be fair, I don't know of any fandom that doesn't have a core toxic element to it. Things are worse now, IMHO, because social media has brought us all closer together, which makes it easier for fans to mob actors and writers with negativity. It also doesn't help that click-based revenue incentivizes bloggers, YouTubers, and other sites like that to divide differing opinions into sides and amplify each other's most strident voices.

Star Wars is a big fandom, but I'm not sure it's really any worse than any other fandom. Like I think back to my BtVS fandom days, which were pre-Twitter, and I can't imagine what a nightmare the great Bangel/Spuffy shipper wars or the end of s5 Tara/Willow outrage would have been in a Twitter era.

[Ravenya003]

On 2/12/2020 at 11:28 AM, Zuleikha said:

I can't imagine what a nightmare the great Bangel/Spuffy shipper wars

Slightly OT, but I think it's more than a little funny that both BtVS and SW ended the same way regarding the ships: trying to throw a bone to all the loud and obnoxious shippers, while being smart enough to realize that their heroine was better off with an arc that valued self-actualization, finding true happiness with her friends, and ending the story as a single woman. 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Ravenya003

[Danny Franks]

On 2/11/2020 at 10:28 PM, Zuleikha said:

Star Wars is a big fandom, but I'm not sure it's really any worse than any other fandom. Like I think back to my BtVS fandom days, which were pre-Twitter, and I can't imagine what a nightmare the great Bangel/Spuffy shipper wars or the end of s5 Tara/Willow outrage would have been in a Twitter era.

I think Star Wars takes the cake, because there are so many fans with undying loyalty to Extended Universe stuff that was discarded by Disney. People who read those pulpy novels, mostly written by very middling authors, and can speak with authority about Han and Leia's kids or Luke's wife and consider Wedge Antilles an important character.

Not many fandoms have that aspect to them.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 2/11/2020 at 5:28 PM, Zuleikha said:

Star Wars is a big fandom, but I'm not sure it's really any worse than any other fandom. Like I think back to my BtVS fandom days, which were pre-Twitter, and I can't imagine what a nightmare the great Bangel/Spuffy shipper wars or the end of s5 Tara/Willow outrage would have been in a Twitter era.

More slightly OT, but those wars are still going on, which you wouldn't think was possible since the show's been off the air for nearly twenty years. Thanks to DVD box sets, rewatches are very popular. Twenty years from now, the people who are mourning for the unrealized HEA of Reylo will probably have passed it on to a younger generation.

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

More slightly OT, but those wars are still going on, which you wouldn't think was possible since the show's been off the air for nearly twenty years. Thanks to DVD box sets, rewatches are very popular. Twenty years from now, the people who are mourning for the unrealized HEA of Reylo will probably have passed it on to a younger generation.

I read that Sarah Michelle Gellar got so much shit from "Spuffy" fans for publicly saying she preferred Buffy with Angel instead of Spike!

Looking up why shippers take fictional love lives so seriously I found this 2018 Psychology Today article 'The Psychology of Shipping' and guess who's mentioned first in the opening paragraph:

Quote

Do you want Rey and Kylo Ren to become a couple? Ross and Rachel? Hermione and Harry? Or are you really against these pairings? If so, you’re a shipper. Shipping is a predominant way of engaging with fiction now–and it has a great impact on contemporary literature, film, and TV.

 

[ICantDoThatDave]

"Do you want Rey and Kylo Ren to become a couple? Ross and Rachel? Hermione and Harry? Or are you really against these pairings? If so, you’re a shipper."

I disagree with that definition.  It's too simple.  It'd be like saying "Do you like watching movies? Then you're a cinephile!"  "Do you like eating food? Then yo're a foodie!"  It oversimplifies the definition to include basically everyone.  "Ever rooted for a particular basketball team to win? Then you're a sports nut!"

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, Xianders said:

I didn't go to that movie in the theater. Should I buy this movie in the future?

Yes. It's wonky, but it's still pretty good. Just don't expect perfection.

[VCRTracking]

I've always like Patrick Willems' video essays. This is from March of 2018 after news of JJ Abrams taking over directing Episode IX came out. It speculated how he would resolve the characters' arcs based on Abrams' previous work, specifically the finale of his show Felicity. At the time I thought how funny it'd be if it came true. Now watching it again it's hilariously shocking how accurate the prediction was! I mean it was practically DEAD ON:

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

I am on record of liking the movie but that was hilarious. Also this:

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Ravenya003]

Hey, if anyone knows what a good trilogy should look like, it's Elijah Wood.

Also, those ships were manned by brainwashed child soldiers? Just like Finn and Jannah? That our heroes proceeded to blow up? Awesome.

Till the day I die, I will never understand why they dropped the ball on Finn starting a Stormtrooper uprising. This trilogy should have ended with his expertise on Stormtrooper thinking/training and Rey's Force powers being used in tandem to reach out to the Stormtroopers and show them there was another, better way to live, and for them to turn on Kylo (and/or Palpatine) by simply laying down their weapons and rendering the fleet harmless. 

Can you imagine the power of a scene in which Finn's words gets through to them and they take off their helmets to reveal a bunch of scared teenagers?

The faceless characters that have always been treated as cannon fodder and laughed at for their bad aiming skills could have been the key to defeating the Dark Side once and for all, which in turn would have been a beautiful bookend to their original purpose as disposable clones built for war. 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Ravenya003

[ICantDoThatDave]

40 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

Till the day I die, I will never understand why they dropped the ball on Finn starting a Stormtrooper uprising.

It's because Abrams never gave any more thought to it than "what if we had a Stormtrooper who defected?"  It's what he does.  Comes up with cool "hooks" but then never pays them off.  You put more thought into Finn's character than the movie writers ever did.

[Zuleikha]

This trilogy should have ended with his expertise on Stormtrooper thinking/training and Rey's Force powers being used in tandem to reach out to the Stormtroopers and show them there was another, better way to live, and for them to turn on Kylo (and/or Palpatine) by simply laying down their weapons and rendering the fleet harmless.

If only they'd had an overall outline for the trilogy, they may have planned a payoff like that.

[ursula]

3 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

Till the day I die, I will never understand why they dropped the ball on Finn starting a Stormtrooper uprising.

Because they recast Finn from someone who looked like Shia LaBeouf to someone who looked like John Boyega.

[katha]

I mean, looking back at the thing, it seems more and more hilarious/awful that there was obviously no plan in place for the trilogy as a whole. Just...how does that work? And yap, in light of that, Abrams' worst tendencies as a film maker ("Hey! Looks cool! What do you mean, it has to make sense in the end?") could reaaaally fly in TROS. That movie was one giant "Here, cool concept! Look, bright shiny object!" seemingly without much thought put into coherent storytelling and character development.

Pile on that their reluctance to make any decisions on anything, there you go. And it is a shame that a franchise with two pretty great films (TFA and TLJ) now petered out with such a subpar ending. It also means that it drags down the trilogy as a whole, unfortunately.

Edited February 20, 2020 by katha

[VCRTracking]

I sincerely think Abrams liked the interactions between Finn and Poe and Finn and Rey in TFA and that's why there was more of that in TROS. I also think though some fans negative reaction to Rose in TLJ that wasn't racist was dumb. "I don't like Rose lecturing Finn!" Finn asks her why she hates Canto Bight and she tells him. That's it. Just some of her backstory and exposition to Finn and the audience. I guess she should have been crying instead of bitter so she'd be more sympathetic for some people and less of a "bitch".

[Ravenya003]

So the novelization of "The Rise of Skywalker" is out very soon, and reports from various people who got an advanced copy are out. The three most interesting aspects:

1) Palpatine was a clone, whose spirit was transferred into the new body after his death. You don't need me to tell you this doesn't make any more sense than what was (or wasn't) already in the film; in fact it throws up more questions, since why on earth would a clone have the facial scarring that Palpatine got from Mace Windu's lightsabre/lightning attack? 

2) Unsurprisingly, Rey doesn't spend the rest of her life as a hermit on Tatooine (I've no idea how or why people would assume this, unless shippers just wanted to throw out the baby with the bathwater and insist that she couldn't possibly have a life after Kylo died). In any case it's made clear that after burying the sabres she goes back to the Falcon where Finn and Poe are waiting for her. 

3) Rey kissing Ben is described explicitly as "a kiss of gratitude". Which isn't hugely surprising given its context and the way Daisy played it, but (some) Reylos have been attacking Rae Carson (the writer) on her Twitter. *sigh* For the past four years they cried "it's just fiction!" at anyone who questioned their shipping preferences - and they were right! It IS just fiction, so I wish they'd start taking their own damn advice. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Ravenya003

[Anduin]

I like the movie. I really do. But some parts could have been a lot clearer, or at least thought out beforehand. Though let's be honest, the whole making of the movie was rushed. In some ways it was a reaction to the complaints about the other sequel movies, while trying to tell its own story, with both characters and actors off the board, trying to please everyone and also wrap everything up. With a director not known for good finales.

Yeah. I don't know what I was trying to say either. But wonky or not, I'm looking forward to watching it again in a week or so.

[Winter Rose]

I mostly lurk anyway, and will go right back to it after since I'm more of the "I hope Adam Driver doesn't get back problems from carrying the weight of this trilogy" variety, but as a movie itself, I think it had some good ideas but didn't really follow through on them. (The consequence of trying to appeal to everybody, rather than writing for the good of the story, being the constant backpedaling/half-measures so as not to step on any toes, then nothing reaches its potential.) I think they should've started Ben's redemption earlier, I remember sitting there feeling like I was suddenly watching a different movie. It's like the movie simultaneously dragged on and was rushed with an ending that had no time to let the emotional weight of anything settle. They were just scrambling to get the characters to where they needed to be at the end.

But as I love all things Han Solo, naturally my favorite scene was Ben imagining talking to him again. How it acted as a callback to TFA when killing Han, instead of cementing Ben's allegiance to the dark side, it tore him up more than ever, now it acted as the final push for Ben to drop the Kylo Ren persona once and for all. And I think that's how I have to treat these movies, enjoy the moments I liked, and take each movie for what it is, rather than hoping for a consistent whole. Because as a followup to TLJ, TRoS doesn't really work just as, as a followup to TFA, TLJ doesn't really work. It's like no one could agree on the story this trilogy was trying to tell.

As for the novelization, I'm not bothered by the use of "gratitude" but I am annoyed at how both sides seem fixated on the word without bothering to look at what it was for in the context of the whole quote: "A kiss of gratitude, acknowledgement of their connection, celebration that they'd found each other at last" (also that the paragraph came from Ben's POV). Gratitude doesn't negate love but neither should everything have to be explicitly spelled out, there's room for interpretation. It also seems to give context to Rey not seeming to mourn him because just after he dies, she hears Ben's voice saying "I will be always be with you" and she whispers to herself "No one's ever really gone."

The Palpatine thing though - UGH. He's a clone, Rey's his granddaughter but her father was also one of those clones (which wouldn't that make Rey his daughter?! Or his clone self's daughter?!)... I don't know, the more they seem to try to justify it, the worse I think they make it. I'm with Elijah Wood on that one, it needs to stop. I do find it curious though, per the novelization, that apparently it was that Leia wanted the Skywalker legacy to live on through Rey, the Solo legacy to live on through Ben, and the Organa legacy to live on through Poe. Sadly I feel like new footage with Carrie Fisher was needed for that to work.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Winter Rose

[VCRTracking]

I laughed when I learned of the revelations in the novelization because on Rick & Morty that's how Rick survives death, downloading his mind into a new clone! Every complaint about TROS I can't dispute yet I can't help liking the movie. People say Palpatine's return betrays the ending of Return of the Jedi, but honestly I think Anakin's grandson(and Han's son) ending up irredeemably evil would be more of a betrayal. Is it the great conclusion of the Skywalker Saga" we all hoped for? Nope. I do think there are going to be good Star Wars movies in the future and not-so-good ones and fans need to accept that and stop making it the end of the world when they don't like one.

Edited March 11, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Zuleikha]

He's a clone, Rey's his granddaughter but her father was also one of those clones (which wouldn't that make Rey his daughter?! Or his clone self's daughter?!)

Twins are genetic clones of each other, so I don't think Ray's father being a Palpatine clone would make Rey his daughter in the general way we talk about father/daughters. But it would make her his genetic daughter, which actually would have been useful to have in the film.

This is the first time I've ever looked forward to a novelization to get clarity on the official canon! I actually wouldn't mind seeing that supposed initial 3-hour cut either.

[Danny Franks]

Doesn't Palpatine clone himself in the dearly held extended universe novels? I'd have thought die-hard Star Wars fans would be completely happy with this turn of events.

I'll be honest, I don't care how he was still alive. I'm perfectly happy with the conceit that the Force is weird, space wizardry (as it was in the original trilogy) that can do weird shit that defies explanation. So was he a clone? Was he saved by magic? Either are fine.

16 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

2) Unsurprisingly, Rey doesn't spend the rest of her life as a hermit on Tatooine (I've no idea how or why people would assume this, unless shippers just wanted to throw out the baby with the bathwater and insist that she couldn't possibly have a life after Kylo died). In any case it's made clear that after burying the sabres she goes back to the Falcon where Finn and Poe are waiting for her. 

3) Rey kissing Ben is described explicitly as "a kiss of gratitude". Which isn't hugely surprising given its context and the way Daisy played it, but (some) Reylos have been attacking Rae Carson (the writer) on her Twitter. *sigh* For the past four years they cried "it's just fiction!" at anyone who questioned their shipping preferences - and they were right! It IS just fiction, so I wish they'd start taking their own damn advice. 

I am very happy with these explanations. Of course, as you point out there was no reason to ever believe she was going to stay and farm moisture on Tatooine. Girl has the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy, why would anyone think she was stuck anywhere?

And the kiss being gratitude? Okay, I'll definitely accept that. Fuck the Reylo weirdoes and their obsession with abusive relationships. Rey being glad that Kylo Ren finally rediscovered his humanity and sacrificed himself to repair some of the damage he'd done while he was a navel-gazing twit obsessed with being evil? Cool.

[Anduin]

31 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Doesn't Palpatine clone himself in the dearly held extended universe novels? I'd have thought die-hard Star Wars fans would be completely happy with this turn of events.

The comics. Dark Empire. So you were close!

Edited March 11, 2020 by Anduin

[Ravenya003]

Just in case my previous post wasn't clear, I haven't read the novelization, I'm only repeating the three biggest talking-points that've been circling the internet.

But frankly, the only way I could accept the Rey/Ben kiss was by assuming it was out of gratitude (several pages back I described it as a "thank you and goodbye kiss") because what else could it possibly be? (Beyond the meta attempt to throw a bone at the loudest voices on Twitter). I point-black refuse to believe Rey had feelings for him that went beyond sympathy and gratitude, based on the fact that she hated Kylo Ren, and she knew Ben Solo for... what? Twenty minutes, tops? 

(And if she did, hey - she's now hanging out with the two hottest men in the galaxy. She'll get over it pretty quick). 

All that said:

10 hours ago, Winter Rose said:

(The consequence of trying to appeal to everybody, rather than writing for the good of the story, being the constant backpedaling/half-measures so as not to step on any toes, then nothing reaches its potential.)

Bingo. Everything was so wishy-washy and deliberately ambiguous that people can (and SHOULD) take what they like from this, instead of attacking anyone working on the project that has differing interpretations. And honestly, I can sympathize with JJ Abrams and his obvious attempt to try and please everyone - as opposed to the Game of Thrones  guys who were interested in pleasing precisely NO ONE, but unfortunately it came to the same conclusion: disappointment. There's gotta be a fine line between fanservice and being true to the story/characters. 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Ravenya003

[benteen]

I found the Rey/Ben kiss dubious for a lot of reasons and I still think so.  But Disney (I'll say Disney because they micromanged this whole thing) went through it and you can't put that genie back in the bottle.  People don't kiss on the lips to express gratitude.  They hug or kiss on the cheek.  Deal with it, Disney.

Edited March 12, 2020 by benteen

[Winter Rose]

I found some screenshots of the passage with the kiss and Ben's death if anyone's interested:

The kiss

His death

For my money, I don't think gratitude says anything one way or the other about feelings towards the person one's in gratitude to. One can be grateful for something towards someone they're in love with, they can also be grateful for something towards someone that they're not in love with. I do think TPTB's trying to have its cake and eat it too as not confirming Reylo but not denying it either. Personally, I wouldn't take a moment to take in the other person and only then kiss them, and for a lot longer than a peck, if my thanks was platonic. But since this was Ben's POV here anyway, I take it as his gratitude that Rey didn't just walk away once she'd been revived.

[Danny Franks]

13 hours ago, benteen said:

I found the Rey/Ben kiss dubious for a lot of reasons and I still think so.  But Disney (I'll say Disney because they micromanged this whole thing) went through it and you can't put that genie back in the bottle.  People don't kiss on the lips to express gratitude.  They hug or kiss on the cheek.  Deal with it, Disney.

"A kiss while dying" is a fairly common trope in entertainment, and it's often shown more as 'I'll give this person what they want as they're dying' than it is a sign of love and devotion. Think Marius and Eponine in Les Miserables or Wesley and Illyria in Angel. My read will always be that Rey just gave Kylo Ren what she believed he wanted - the idea of being loved and redeemed.

Then she moved on, and had adventures around the galaxy with her boys, Finn, Poe and Chewie.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Danny Franks

[Ravenya003]

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

18 hours ago, benteen said:

I found the Rey/Ben kiss dubious for a lot of reasons and I still think so.  But Disney (I'll say Disney because they micromanged this whole thing) went through it and you can't put that genie back in the bottle.  People don't kiss on the lips to express gratitude.  They hug or kiss on the cheek.  Deal with it, Disney.

"A kiss while dying" is a fairly common trope in entertainment, and it's often shown more as 'I'll give this person what they want as they're dying' than it is a sign of love and devotion. Think Marius and Eponine in Les Miserables or Wesley and Illyria in Angel. My read will always be that Rey just gave Kylo Ren what she believed he wanted - the idea of being loved and redeemed.

Marion kisses Sallah on the lips in Indiana Jones; ditto Lena Headey to both Grimm Brothers in that Terry Gilliam film, all to say thank you, all non-romantic/sexual. 

I've seen the Rey/Ben kiss described as the kiss Christine gave the Phantom, that of a greater soul giving benediction to a wretched one. I like that. And Rey HAS used a kiss to express gratitude before, with Finn while he was in his coma (albeit on forehead, because even scavengers raised by sand know about consent issues). /joke

But it's pointless arguing, if you want to believe it was romantic, it was. If you don't want to believe it was romantic, it wasn't. Disney left room for either option.

(And ultimately, it really doesn't matter either way: he's dead now, and as my co-worker said: "if he's redeemed enough to save her life, he's redeemed enough to keep his Force Ghost to himself and leave her the f**k alone").

Edited March 13, 2020 by Ravenya003

[Winter Rose]

More excerpts from the novelization (longish thread):

https://twitter.com/thislilstangirl/status/1239704343760207872

Just Rae Carson (author of TRoS novelization) - imo - being funny about the "gratitude kiss":

https://twitter.com/raecarson/status/1238524861338628097

[Lantern7]

Didn’t bring back the “Multiple Epic Voice Guys” gimmick. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

Edited March 24, 2020 by Lantern7

[VCRTracking]

On 3/12/2020 at 6:56 PM, Danny Franks said:

"A kiss while dying" is a fairly common trope in entertainment, and it's often shown more as 'I'll give this person what they want as they're dying' than it is a sign of love and devotion. Think Marius and Eponine in Les Miserables or Wesley and Illyria in Angel. My read will always be that Rey just gave Kylo Ren what she believed he wanted - the idea of being loved and redeemed.

Then she moved on, and had adventures around the galaxy with her boys, Finn, Poe and Chewie.

I like the kiss as romantic but do find Reylos being all "Rey would never love again!" ridiculous. Its such a young person attitude. Only teenagers think that.

[ICantDoThatDave]

Just watched it on DVD. I liked how Abrams was clearly like "D'oh! We forgot to copy the prisoner rescue on the Death Star in TFA!" & decided to do it here.  A couple guys run through corridors blasting cameras & Stormtroopers to rescue a prisoner while the Jedi goes off on a side mission.  I'm just amazed they didn't wind up in a trash compactor.

[Ravenya003]

Someone has summarized and animated Colin Trevorrow's "Duel of the Fates" script, albeit in a comedic manner.

https://news.avclub.com/some-people-went-and-animated-colin-trevorrows-unused-s-1842614111

Interesting to see what might have been, though ultimately I think there are pros and cons (mostly the latter) to both visions.

I will however say that Trevorrow's script felt more like a natural follow-up to what was established in both TFA and TLJ (unredeemable Kylo, Rey Solano, a return to planets like Coruscant, an explanation for Rey's vision in TFA, a reason why no one answered Leia's SOS in TLJ, Rey getting a lightsabre staff, Rose treated as a team member, re-establishing a Jedi school, etc).

But Finn still gets shafted, and I don't know what the hell Rey/Poe is all about. 

[ShadowHunter]

On 3/24/2020 at 1:09 PM, Lantern7 said:

Didn’t bring back the “Multiple Epic Voice Guys” gimmick. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

They were so accurate. The part about Daisy Ridley was spot on all she did the whole movie stare.

[VCRTracking]

On 4/4/2020 at 7:42 PM, ShadowHunter said:

They were so accurate. The part about Daisy Ridley was spot on all she did the whole movie stare.

Nevertheless I think she did a great job with what she was given, which makes this sad to read:

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/daisy-ridley-gets-honest-enduring-134528227.html

I've been a Star Wars fan for a long time so I wasn't that surprised by any kind of vitriol but I can imagine so much negativity would be a shock after the amount of love initially shown. She's in a unique situation. When Return of the Jedi was made it had already been six years and the enthusiasm had gone. The cast and Harrison Ford especially were ready to move on. The cast of the prequels experienced backlash from the first movie and never got the love so when Revenge of the Sith they were also ready to put Star Wars behind them. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Ravenya003]

It's sad that the actors/actresses have suffered, since I'm sure any performer is just as interested in having an audience enjoy their work as they are in cashing the paycheck.  

I recently watched the reaction videos of Daisy Ridley and John Boyega watching the trailer for the Force Awakens, and they were so excited they were in tears and bouncing off the furniture. Safe to say that even before last December, that vibe was LONG gone. 

[ShadowHunter]

On 4/13/2020 at 10:37 PM, Ravenya003 said:

It's sad that the actors/actresses have suffered, since I'm sure any performer is just as interested in having an audience enjoy their work as they are in cashing the paycheck.  

I recently watched the reaction videos of Daisy Ridley and John Boyega watching the trailer for the Force Awakens, and they were so excited they were in tears and bouncing off the furniture. Safe to say that even before last December, that vibe was LONG gone. 

I had seen the articles with Daisy asking where had the love gone? She mentioned people didn't like the Rise of Skywalker now.  I think Boyega is definitely over it.  It happens with each saga the creators should hand out a memo to all future SW actors telling them to be prepared. I am sure all the backlash got to them.  Poor Jack Lloyd definitely was bullied after The Phantom Menace. 

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, ShadowHunter said:

I had seen the articles with Daisy asking where had the love gone? She mentioned people didn't like the Rise of Skywalker now.  I think Boyega is definitely over it.  It happens with each saga the creators should hand out a memo to all future SW actors telling them to be prepared. I am sure all the backlash got to them.  Poor Jack Lloyd definitely was bullied after The Phantom Menace. 

So you're saying it's their fault for being in movies that a bunch of idiots don't like?

[ShadowHunter]

9 hours ago, Anduin said:

So you're saying it's their fault for being in movies that a bunch of idiots don't like?

I did not say that at all. Still this is a fact that has happened with the last bunch of movies and truth this will happen again.  Do people take things too far in the SW fandom yes!!  Plenty of rational people didn't like this film or saga so it's a bit unfair of you to say all of them are idiots. Plenty of people on this site did not care for it but the conversation stayed civil.  

Edited April 15, 2020 by ShadowHunter

[VCRTracking]

39 minutes ago, ShadowHunter said:

I did not say that at all. Still this is a fact that has happened with the last bunch of movies and truth this will happen again.  Do people take things too far in the SW fandom yes!!  Plenty of rational people didn't like this film or saga so it's a bit unfair of you to say all of them are idiots. Plenty of people on this site did not care for it but the conversation civil.  

And I hope it continues being civil! I didn't post this last week because it was already causing new arguments in the online fandom, but I thought, hell there's no stopping that so:

https://news.avclub.com/force-awakens-editor-mary-jo-markey-still-sounds-pretty-1842784710

I'll just say I agree when people complain there should have been one vision behind Episodes 7, 8, and 9, however it should've been George Lucas'. In lieu of that I don't think I would've wanted the final saga trilogy by ONLY Abrams or Johnson.

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by VCRTracking

[ShadowHunter]

19 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

And I hope it continues being civil! I didn't post this last week because it was already causing new arguments in the online fandom, but I thought, hell there's no stopping that so:

https://news.avclub.com/force-awakens-editor-mary-jo-markey-still-sounds-pretty-1842784710

I'll just say I agree when people complain there should have been one vision behind Episodes 7, 8, and 9, however it should've been George Lucas'. In lieu of that I don't think I would've wanted the final saga trilogy by ONLY Abrams or Johnson.

 

I have seen this article making the rounds.  No singular vision or direction was the main complaint I heard from many people. It does feel like each director did his own movie.  I can't say or imagine what would have happened with George Lucas. Have his ideas but someone else write and direct it.  I feel one person doing all 3 would have helped but I could be wrong.  After TFA I joked that since JJ copied A New Hope that Kylo would be redeemed and die in the last movie because that is what happened in ROTJ and JJ would copy that as well. A few people have me looks after Rise of Skywalker lol. Abrams relied on nostalgia and repetition too much. Johnson tried something different but in doing that he screwed up Luke and sidelined characters.

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, ShadowHunter said:

I have seen this article making the rounds.  No singular vision or direction was the main complaint I heard from many people. It does feel like each director did his own movie.  I can't say or imagine what would have happened with George Lucas. Have his ideas but someone else write and direct it.  I feel one person doing all 3 would have helped but I could be wrong.  After TFA I joked that since JJ copied A New Hope that Kylo would be redeemed and die in the last movie because that is what happened in ROTJ and JJ would copy that as well. A few people have me looks after Rise of Skywalker lol. Abrams relied on nostalgia and repetition too much. Johnson tried something different but in doing that he screwed up Luke and sidelined characters.

Well that last part is subjective and debatable. There was no reason to really continue the story after the happy ending of Return of the Jedi unless you do it two ways: Either the hero lives long enough to be the villain or it's a comeback story. The latter was what Lucas originally planned and what Johnson made. You have to have a low point to come back from. And giving characters their own arcs where they get challenged and have to grow is not "sidelining" IMO.  I do think the bitterness and pessimism may have been too much. Abrams and Johnson are "sugar  and spice" or if you prefer "sweet and sour". I wouldn't want so much of either one.

Edited April 15, 2020 by VCRTracking

[mojoween]

I did not watch TFA or TLJ and only watched the other six movies once each so I don’t have much insight into the universe as a whole, but I’ve grown up on the periphery of SW my whole life and the reactions of Chewie and R2D2 to Leia dying were more gut-wrenching than any human could have ever done.  Brought me to tears!

[katha]

I thought TLJ was a great and brave movie. The problem is, there was no joint vision among the creative teams and directors and that's ultimately on the producers and Disney. It should have been made clear: You need to cooperate and you need to go in the same direction with characters and plot. I also thought TFA was very enjoyable. But TROS became a mess because there was no coordination and they were too scared to make any kind of decisions. So it was just loud noise and barely any substance. Like, about the only thing Johnson and Abrams seemed to agree on was the Kylo Ren redemption arc. So that seems more or less consistent throughout the three movies. With everything else, the movies just went wherever. 

And it's extra awful that the actors get all the backlash for it. The studio is to blame for the decisions, they get bashed for it and can deal with all of the toxic Star Wars culture (yes, I know, most fans are cool, but the nasty ones are super loud and super malicious in the fandom). Driver has no social media and that seems like a very smart move. Tran and Ridley were driven off SM and Boyega has to deal with all kinds of nonsense. And yeah, it is really sad that people like Ridley, Boyega or Tran, for whom this was their first really big gig und who seemed super excited about it, have burned out about the whole thing and seem resigned and sad now.

[Ravenya003]

So apparently Rey wasn't Palpatine's granddaughter, but rather the daughter of one of his failed clones.

Give it up Disney, nothing you can say at this point is going to change people's minds about how they feel about this movie. 

[Danny Franks]

On 4/22/2020 at 6:54 AM, katha said:

I thought TLJ was a great and brave movie. The problem is, there was no joint vision among the creative teams and directors and that's ultimately on the producers and Disney. It should have been made clear: You need to cooperate and you need to go in the same direction with characters and plot. I also thought TFA was very enjoyable. But TROS became a mess because there was no coordination and they were too scared to make any kind of decisions. So it was just loud noise and barely any substance. Like, about the only thing Johnson and Abrams seemed to agree on was the Kylo Ren redemption arc. So that seems more or less consistent throughout the three movies. With everything else, the movies just went wherever. 

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the creative decisions for this trilogy were made - why not have one overall vision? Why give it to different directors and writers, but then overrule them in certain areas?

I imagine there was a desire to let as many creative people contribute as possible, but I don't see how that could ever have turned out better than a singular vision and coherent narrative. Then again, the prequels were a singular vision and cohesive narrative, and they were terrible.

They should have told Abrams that if he writes one movie, he writes all three, even if he doesn't direct them. Or they should have had him, Johnson and Trevorrow sit down and write the trilogy together.

I still think the movies are entertaining, and they redeemed Star Wars for me in a lot of ways, after the prequels. I also found Rogue One and Solo entertaining. Are any of them masterful works of cinema? Nope. But then, nor are the originals. Building them up as some grand, worthy property that only certain people are good enough to touch is utter nonsense. It's popcorn entertainment, it's marketing and merchandising and toys for kids. The grown fucking adults who think they have to spew hate at actors for their roles might need to put those toys down and just move on with their lives.

 

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the creative decisions for this trilogy were made - why not have one overall vision? Why give it to different directors and writers, but then overrule them in certain areas?

I imagine there was a desire to let as many creative people contribute as possible, but I don't see how that could ever have turned out better than a singular vision and coherent narrative. Then again, the prequels were a singular vision and cohesive narrative, and they were terrible.

They should have told Abrams that if he writes one movie, he writes all three, even if he doesn't direct them. Or they should have had him, Johnson and Trevorrow sit down and write the trilogy together.

I still think the movies are entertaining, and they redeemed Star Wars for me in a lot of ways, after the prequels. I also found Rogue One and Solo entertaining. Are any of them masterful works of cinema? Nope. But then, nor are the originals. Building them up as some grand, worthy property that only certain people are good enough to touch is utter nonsense. It's popcorn entertainment, it's marketing and merchandising and toys for kids. The grown fucking adults who think they have to spew hate at actors for their roles might need to put those toys down and just move on with their lives.

 

The Clone Wars series has proved it wasn't Lucas' vision that was bad it was the execution. He had great ideas but needed someone better at writing and directing. The prequels told a tale of tragedy and political intrigue but it needed a great dramatist, someone who could write dialogue and work with actors, because that definitely wasn't Lucas' strong suit. He did try to get other people like Spielberg, Robert Zemeckis, and Ron Howard to direct Episode I but they all told him he should do it. He even asked a British theater director who directed one of the Young Indiana Jones episodes to co-direct. He would direct the dramatic scenes while Lucas would direct the action. Lucas was turned down.