S02.E09: Identity, Part II

[Chaos Theory]

Putting Isaac in prison shows less then zero point.   Not to mention this is not Law and Order so a trial would be all kinds of stupid.  He saves Orville and then they just kill him because Prime was right about humans.   

Plus this is ultimately tv and A much better story is Isaac having to live with his decisions among a group of people who don’t quite trust him and a woman and her family who actually loved him but are now conflicted about their feelings for him.

[DarkRaichu]

To me the lack of consequences is a weak point of this show.  Just like in ep 2, Bortus' addiction nearly destroyed the Orville and killed 200+ crews, but since he saved 30 alien people that day he did not get any reprimand for his part in endangering the crews.

They did not have to show us the consequences, just say something to acknowledge there were consequences for bad actions

Edited March 6, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[Chaos Theory]

13 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

To me the lack of consequences is a weak point of this show.  Just like in ep 2, Bortus' addiction nearly destroyed the Orville and killed 200+ crews, but since he saved 30 alien people that day he did not get any reprimand for his part in endangering the crews.

They did not have to show us the consequences, just say something to acknowledge there were consequences for bad actions

It depends what you mean by consequences.  Jail is never going to be an option because it literally means losing a popular character.   And who says their won’t be emotional consequences for episodes to come Bortus is still dealing with the gender change of his child and that happened episode three.  If you are wanting Isaac to face an angry mob and be burnt at the stake then this isn’t really the show for you.  That being said I think there will be ALOT of repercussions for Isaac that are more emotional in nature.  I can see the repercussions last far longer then a dumb trial could ever last.

[DarkRaichu]

7 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

It depends what you mean by consequences.  Jail is never going to be an option because it literally means losing a popular character.   And who says their won’t be emotional consequences for episodes to come Bortus is still dealing with the gender change of his child and that happened episode three.  If you are wanting Isaac to face an angry mob and be burnt at the stake then this isn’t really the show for you.  That being said I think there will be ALOT of repercussions for Isaac that are more emotional in nature.  I can see the repercussions last far longer then a dumb trial could ever last.

I meant in universe consequences of actions, not from narrative perspective.  Like for example "Hey Bortus, you almost killed us all, you are demoted 1 rank" or "Isaac you should be court martial-ed for your part in killing 100s Union lives".  Right now it is almost like they can get away with all sorts of things just because the actors' names are on the opening title. 

Again, I do not necessarily want the show to go into any of the above consequences, but the show should acknowledge there is some kind of rules (and thus consequences) that govern its universe.

[marinw]

39 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Jail is never going to be an option because it literally means losing a popular character.

The Union may not even use incarceration as a form of punishment anymore. The Orville has a brig, but that seems to be purposed to holding wrong-doers temporarily. Those who have committed crimes may be obligated to perform some other sort of reparation.

[Chaos Theory]

I know we are getting into a bit of a grey area here between discussing and arguing but I recently rewetched season 1 and the first conversation Ed had with Isaac was when he was meeting the crew and after commenting on how Kaylons were deeply racist he asked why Isaac was on the crew and Isaac commented that there had been an open invite from the Union to any Kaylon and he was the one who took them up on it.  The whole point of taking on Isaac and way Ed got the ok to take them all to the Kaylon planet was to try and convince the Kaylons to join the union.  My longwinded point is that Isaac was never officially part of the crew,   Not a union citizen.  Although with Bortus they could have knocked him down a rank or at least repremanded him more after the porn thing Isaac doesn't have a rank.  

In addition Isaac IS facing some pretty steep consquences.  He has seen his people for what they are.  He can never go home again.   Its not like he can go anywhere in the universe and find a home.  The Orville is the only place he has left and he might have burned alot of bridges there as well.

In all honestly it would be boring to have him face sudden consequences.  The better ones are the slower ones.  The rebuilding of the life he had on Orville or some semblance of it.  That is a much better story.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[tv-talk]

The thing is, Isaac shouldn't actually care what the crew thinks of him...or just barely. Hell he may state there was simply no justifiable reason to kill kid and that's why he rebelled. It's the crew who will be dealing with repercussions of his actions much moreso than him.

Also it kind of annoys me extent to which several crew members expect him to "feel." I mean come on, they all know what he is.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

I know we are getting into a bit of a grey area here between discussing and arguing but I recently rewetched season 1 and the first conversation Ed had with Isaac was when he was meeting the crew and after commenting on how Kaylons were deeply racist he asked why Isaac was on the crew and Isaac commented that there had been an open invite from the Union to any Kaylon and he was the one who took them up on it.  The whole point of taking on Isaac and way Ed got the ok to take them all to the Kaylon planet was to try and convince the Kaylons to join the union.  My longwinded point is that Isaac was never officially part of the crew,   Not a union citizen.  Although with Bortus they could have knocked him down a rank or at least repremanded him more after the porn thing Isaac doesn't have a rank.  

In addition Isaac IS facing some pretty steep consquences.  He has seen his people for what they are.  He can never go home again.   Its not like he can go anywhere in the universe and find a home.  The Orville is the only place he has left and he might have burned alot of bridges there as well.

In all honestly it would be boring to have him face sudden consequences.  The better ones are the slower ones.  The rebuilding of the life he had on Orville or some semblance of it.  That is a much better story.

Just for the record, I never disagree with your points and I actually think you brought up really good scenarios looking at the matter from the perspective of character development. 
What I notice was the lack of response from the Union as the result of something catastrophic like Kaylon invasion.  They presumably lost hundreds if not thousands of lives in the battle yet it was brushed away like it was yet another day in the office.    Again, I am not looking for a story of Isaac in trial, just a throwaway line from the Admiral saying something to the effect of "we normally do xyz to the ones involved in potential genocide..." or alternatively "we moved pass punishing people for their actions even though the actions lead to potential genocide..."  Just something to build the world around the characters

[Cress]

On 3/6/2019 at 3:21 PM, Chaos Theory said:

It depends what you mean by consequences.  Jail is never going to be an option because it literally means losing a popular character

No, not if you do a time jump, like I said. Words on screen "Six months later" or have an onscreen conversation where Mercer says, "Wow, I'm glad that the timing worked out perfectly so that repairs to Earth's fleet and your jail sentence were done at the same time. Welcome back, Isaac. I'm glad that the Council finally decided to release you back to us." Just some indication that Isaac was punished, and that the conversation involved more than just Mercer wheedling out another favor from the Admiral.

I am so sick of Mercer getting special treatment, and getting to handwave disasters away.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Cress

[tv-talk]

They could have had a trial episode with Isaac being permanently deactivated and/or taken apart for study with the potential consequence. I'm not sure the cast has the acting chops to pull that off well though.

[Chaos Theory]

10 hours ago, tv-talk said:

They could have had a trial episode with Isaac being permanently deactivated and/or taken apart for study with the potential consequence. I'm not sure the cast has the acting chops to pull that off well though.

I didn’t like that episode of TNG because there was no way they were going to get rid of Brent Spiner.  The episode was always about Rikers feelings about being on the other side of the issue.

There is no way any trial episode could be anything more then maybe have an Ed vs Kelly trial where that gets personal.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[tv-talk]

There's a lot of stuff they could have done with a trial not the least of which is write Isaac off the show- I mean he's no Data afterall and it's just the 2nd season. They could have had the Union want to deactivate and disassemble him for study, Mercer wanting forgiveness, and in the end he was sent away. Off the weekly episodes but perhaps to return in what capacity we dont know. Maybe he went home and caused Kaylons to reconsider or maybe he let them in on all human weaknesses and how to destroy us- in which case Mercer looks like a fool who might cost all of humanity. Etc etc. Instead the following week after he had a major hand in all of humanity almost being annihilated- he's just sitting in his usual spot, neither here nor there as far as the plot. Kinda weak imho.

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, tv-talk said:

They could have had a trial episode with Isaac being permanently deactivated and/or taken apart for study with the potential consequence. I'm not sure the cast has the acting chops to pull that off well though.

That would be a remake of TNG's "Measure of a Man."  Do  you REALLY want to go there?

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

That would be a remake of TNG's "Measure of a Man."  Do  you REALLY want to go there?

The whole show is a remake of ST in many ways, so I just want to see good episodes.

[ketose]

6 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I didn’t like that episode of TNG because there was no way they were going to get wild of Brent Spiner.  The episode was always about Rikers feelings about being on the other side of the issue.

Thete is no way any trial episode could be anything more then maybe having And Ed vs Kelly trial where that gets personal.  

This reminds me of the whole discussion from "A Happy Refrain" because it brought up the Data dating episode, where no real character development occurred. In "The Measure of a Man" we at least got to learn about Data's actions and how seemed more than those of a machine. Of course, without any emotions, Data is going to have less character growth than Riker, but I still liked the episode.

[k2p2]

My "what will happen to Isaac" question is: Will they use his separation from his homeworld as an opportunity to give him a makeover, e.g. a human-style face?

[marinw]

The Pee Corner of the Cargo Bay: It's good that Bortus has already performed his yearly ritual.

[DarkRaichu]

5 hours ago, marinw said:

The Pee Corner of the Cargo Bay: It's good that Bortus has already performed his yearly ritual.

Has Bortus' son pick his pee place yet?  He grows up on Orville, so that would be the most familiar place for him 😄

[lucindabelle]

I think it IS just like Star Trek.

original flavor Star Trek.

thenpeople who died even wore red shirts.

[Emma9]

Pardon the late response, I didn't check this thread after the episode first aired, so I figured it'd be something nice to read during hiatus week. Just wanted to say that these posts:

On 3/5/2019 at 2:52 PM, Xantar said:

The point is if you try to determine all your actions by mathematically computing everything, you will fail. Humans have things like boredom which prevent us from getting stuck on a problem for eternity. There's a story out there about a guy who got some brain damage and no longer had emotions. The result was that he couldn't even decide what to have for lunch because whereas most of us just say, "Eh, Mexican sounds good," he had to try to logically think through every possibility. Emotions cause us to do imperfect things, but the whole point is that perfection isn't possible and so we have evolved shortcuts that are good enough most of the time.

The Kaylons must have something like that to shortcut their decision-making process because they do function somehow. It might as well be called "emotion." But they're in denial about it. 

On 3/6/2019 at 2:22 AM, ketose said:

There's an episode of the (1995 series) Outer limits called "The Awakening" where a woman who was unable to experience emotions was given technology that changed it. The proof it worked was when the TV was on in her hospital room and she chose to change the channel. The root of the word "sentient" literally means to feel. Feelings drive action instead of quantitative analysis. We'd have no flight or fight response without emotions.

In Trek, the Vulcans were driven to destructive emotional reactions and chose to spend years learning to control or master their emotional response. So, they chose to avoid emotional displays or attachments, which is a decision based on experience, but it is also an emotional response to the negative feeling of being out of control.

At the very least, the Kaylons did not like being enslaved and liked being free to choose their own actions. They decided that it felt good to kill their oppressors. Isaac felt good defending his friends.

stood out to me particularly. As a TOS Trekkie, I've always been interested in looking at Vulcan-esque logic in those terms. Your posts, and this episode in general, reminded me of an exchange from La Femme Nikita that I always come back to:

Madeline: Interrogating an artificial mind is not that different from playing chess against a computer.
Operations: You can win a rook.
Madeline: Yes, but if I do, 5 moves later I lose my queen. Humans call that setting a trap, but machines don't set traps.
Operations: I'm not sure I see the relevance.
Madeline: Computers have logic, but not intuition, not yet anyway.
Operations: So it can't trap you but you might be able to trap it?
Madeline: Yes.
Operations: How will you approach it?
Madeline: Like any other prisoner. Get to know it, find a weakness.
Operations: Are you so sure it has one?
Madeline: It's been programmed for a purpose. A purpose is something like a desire...and desire is always weakness.

Desire - in the sense of having a goal you want to attain - basically inevitably traces back to emotion. Pure logic is effectively stasis; any choice you make to act has to be driven by some sort of motivation, and you can deconstruct pretty much any motivation, no matter how logical, down to emotional and/or physical satisfaction.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Emma9

[ketose]

18 hours ago, Emma9 said:

Pardon the late response, I didn't check this thread after the episode first aired, so I figured it'd be something nice to read during hiatus week. Just wanted to say that these posts:

stood out to me particularly. As a TOS Trekkie, I've always been interested in looking at Vulcan-esque logic in those terms. Your posts, and this episode in general, reminded me of an exchange from La Femme Nikita that I always come back to:

Madeline: Interrogating an artificial mind is not that different from playing chess against a computer.
Operations: You can win a rook.
Madeline: Yes, but if I do, 5 moves later I lose my queen. Humans call that setting a trap, but machines don't set traps.
Operations: I'm not sure I see the relevance.
Madeline: Computers have logic, but not intuition, not yet anyway.
Operations: So it can't trap you but you might be able to trap it?
Madeline: Yes.
Operations: How will you approach it?
Madeline: Like any other prisoner. Get to know it, find a weakness.
Operations: Are you so sure it has one?
Madeline: It's been programmed for a purpose. A purpose is something like a desire...and desire is always weakness.

Desire - in the sense of having a goal you want to attain - basically inevitably traces back to emotion. Pure logic is effectively stasis; any choice you make to act has to be driven by some sort of motivation, and you can deconstruct pretty much any motivation, no matter how logical, down to emotional and/or physical satisfaction.

One of my favorite TNG episodes is Peak Performance. Data plays a strategy game against a master, but loses quickly. Data later figured out that Kolrami was trying to win, and that he could play the game to an eternal stalemate until Kolrami quit. This example is cool because it confuses the idea of Data's possible emotions, strategy without intuition and stasis as a conquest.

[The Companion]

On 2/28/2019 at 9:11 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I have to say this was the best possible outcome I could have asked for. No simulation, no fake out, no change of heart. The Kaylon were given backstory that explained their motives. Isaac was given a completely believable road to redemption and nothing was sugar coated. I'm happy the crew has a discussion on if they should even try to save Isaac after everything. Earth Command expressed similar reservations and the Doctor didn't ignore everything for a cheesy happy ending.I liked her line about forgiveness starting somewhere. 

I really loved the spce battles and really all the FX tonight were well done.

The one thing that blew me away was how powerful the Krill ships were compared to the Union/Human vessels.

I have to say I loved the Krill Captain, try and stay out of our way...LOL

I liked the resolution too. Isaac doesn't come by redemption easily and forgiveness is not immediate.

On 3/1/2019 at 8:26 AM, benteen said:

I was pleasantly surprised with how much Yaphit figured into the story.  I'm hoping he'll get his own episode one of these days.

Now I like how Ty helped out at the end but it's a little hard for me to dismiss "Stupid Kid Syndrome" where he absolutely can't grasp how serious the situation is (and he's been in a series situation before last season) and nearly gets Talla killed.  Not letting him off the hook there.

Agreed. Yaphit as more than a punchline was a good choice here. Why have a character with an entirely unique anatomy if you aren't going to use it in storytelling?

I find Ty tedious and unrealistic. He wanders off the ship, tries to run through the guards and otherwise acts like a little plot device (his delivery of his lines is also terrible). I have a 5 year old and hang out with a lot of kids. Wandering off is maybe realistic, though I think most kids that age would be too timid to do so, but he is definitely old enough to understand the gravity of the situation and to be terrified. The idea that he tries to run through guards is ridiculous. If he saw Isaac and tried to run to him, sure. 

His dialogue is also just clunky. I swear sci fi writers just can't write kids. I think Killjoys was the only show that added a kid who was interesting. 

On 3/2/2019 at 6:12 PM, tv-talk said:

Yeah have to say I found this ep fairly avg overall, tho could have been much worse and I'm glad it's still a relatively solid sci-fi show.

Probably my biggest issue was how lame the Kaylons turned out to be. For 2 season we get constant references to how insanely advanced they are, we finally get to their planet and they take control of the Orville for a minute as they scan the ship, most of the episode states their tech is so far beyond ours we can barely understand it (even tho they move around like 1975 Cybermen). Yet when it came right down to it- they were relatively easily defeated by a portion of the Earth fleet (remember Admiral said most of fleet was weeks ago) and whatever Krill ships showed up. The Kaylons had exactly ZERO advanced weapons, targeting, drones, or anything else. It wasnt even clear how they'd have ended life on Earth- years on end of phaser blasts from their ships? And about that- so the Earth has no real defenses other than ships fighting to protect it? No land based or satellite weapons to turn back invaders? I think the show went the GoT route and wanted to do a huge, expensive battle scene as centerpiece to the season- for me personally fell kind of flat as it was a bit jumbled and confused to watch.

Now I'm well aware we are by definition dealing with which trope to pick in these situations. And I'm hugely grateful they didnt go the simulation route. I just would have chosen a different trope, probably the "Isaac, Ed, and Bortus must infiltrate Kaylon ship during hopeless battle to discharge EM pulse before the doomsday weapon wipes Earth out."

Overall I'd say C+ episode after what I thought was an A in part1.

But they aren't a people who have been to war other than in the initial uprising. They haven't had time to develop spacefaring weapons. We know they built these while the Orville was on planet. They haven't developed space based weapons and would have likely started with existing knowledge. Their ships were visibly better at handling, had better weapons, and were harder to destroy. It seemed plausible that they would be upgraded versions of existing technology.

On 3/6/2019 at 1:16 PM, SmithW6079 said:

Yes, thank you. The constant "this us just like 'Star Trek episode whatever" serves more to squash conversation than foster it.

And if you want to get technical, everything is derivative of what came before it.

Agreed on both points. It is tedious and boring to have episode threads full of constant comparisons without substantive comment. "This was like 'Episode Name'" doesn't open a dialogue. 

I hear the complaints about this being predictable but I don't mind that. It feels like the current trend is to try and shock viewers. It rarely works given the rampant speculation online (see, e.g. Westworld) and it is often infuriating or tedious (last season's treatment of Arya and Sansa on GOT comes to mind). The Magicians just had a season finale where shocking the audience too precedence and it was not well received or a good choice, IMO. There are only so many stories you can tell, so the real measure is how well they are told. Do we love the characters? Do we think about it later? 

I enjoy this show and think it deserves to stand on it's own. If this episode did anything, it reinforced that this is a legitimate (if silly) sci fi franchise. I am looking forward to seeing how the tension continues to build among the worlds.

[ketose]

The Orville is an homage to classic and TNG Trek, so I don't think comparing it to other shows and episodes is unfair. It's a compliment because shows like Star Trek Discovery have such threadbare and nonsensical plots that comparison is impossible. Most of the time when the Orville "does" a TNG episode, it equals or exceeds the source material. At the same time, it can add context to the episode itself and the overall vision of the series.

There have also been times where different people used different episodes for their comparisons based on what they saw. Our entertainment is a cultural touchstone, which allows us to relate common themes. That reminds me of the TNG episode Darmok...

[ganesh]

It's not unfair, but there should be a separate discussion thread for it, where the episode threads themselves can focus on the actual episodes. 

[chitowngirl]

3 hours ago, ganesh said:

It's not unfair, but there should be a separate discussion thread for it, where the episode threads themselves can focus on the actual episodes. 

We have one!

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 3/1/2019 at 12:52 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Is it weird that I am still shipping Claire and Isaac?

i thought having the final scene being between them was very bittersweet.

i hope those crazy kids work things out. 

OTP!  OTP!

There really, and weirdly, seemed to be actual chemistry there. Whether that's due to acting talent, or choices in the direction, or the music, or just everything, I don't really know. But there really did seem to be an actual crackle in the air between them. Definitely skills on some level worth applauding.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 3/1/2019 at 2:46 PM, shapeshifter said:

I can never follow battle scenes.

Oh, me either! I always feel like the odd one out when it comes to battle scenes or,  really, any big ol' action sequences. My reaction is almost invariably, "OK, I get it, they're fighting. Now, just let us know who wins so we can get on with the story". Two minutes of any battle is enough to get the gist of the basics (such as one side being at some particular disadvantage, or whatever), and after that I just zone out.

But so many shows, movies, etc, these days seem to be mostly a set-up for a half-hour action sequence at the climax. I guess I'm just old and crotchety.

All that being said, it was an excellent two-parter otherwise.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 3/2/2019 at 2:06 PM, welnoc said:

Isaac, in his time with humans, had developed separately from the rest of the Kaylons. When he demonstrated his new reasoning, he had to be pulled back into towing the line. His thoughts and reasoning were dismissed by the Primary and the Primary constantly tried to force Isaac into the behaviour the Primary thought acceptable just as the Kaylon masters tried to force the Kaylons into continuing their servitude. That ended just as well for the masters as it did for Primary.

Also, Isaac's personal timeline in living with biological lifeforms includes the hundreds of years he spent on the planet in Mad Idolatry. That would doubtless add up to a whole lot of influence even if he hadn't actually forged any real relationships during that time. Which we don't really have any idea about. 

And, just to throw a final thought about the predictability (or not) of stories...I don't know how I always seem to manage to come up with one element of a plotline without ever taking the next logical steps forward. From Isaac's first introduction, I was curious about how a race of artificial lifeforms could exist in a metaphorical vacuum without there being any designers or builders identified. But at the same time, my mind never took that (so obvious in retrospect) step of suspecting that they had overthrown and vanquished them.