Leaving Neverland

[Ubiquitous]

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 10:17 PM, Irlandesa said:

What I find really interesting about the Jackson Estate statement that Oprah partially read is that they call both James and Wade perjurers.  Isn't their alleged perjury lying that Michael didn't molest them?  So they're liars but what proves them to be liars is them saying Michael didn't do what his estate wants people to think he didn't do but that tacitly admits that Michael did do it. Otherwise, they wouldn't be perjurers.

Good point! I wondered about the ambiguous phrasing of that statement as well, in hindsight.

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 10:26 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Does anyone ever think that MJ unconsciously killed himself? I call it a passive suicide. The amount of drugs he demanded the doctor administer ... these were not drugs to get high. These were drugs to knock you out cold. This isn't Phillip Seymour Hoffman or Cory Monteith who overdosed after a long history of heroin abuse. There seems something very fishy about MJ demanding drugs that completely knock you into unconsciousness for so long.

I don't think MJ had a subconscious death wish; I think he was overmedicated to the point that he no longer could sleep normally on his own, plus I got the impression he was surrounded by myrmidons who didn't want to rock the oat by telling him that his drug use was out of control and going to kill him.

[Dorne2.0]

On 4/5/2019 at 3:44 PM, Razzberry said:

It's funny to hear them accuse anyone of lying.   Jackson is sole person throughout this who seemed so false and lying about everything.  Runner-up would be that favorite of pedophiles, wife killers and violent thugs, Los Angeles "Criminal Defense Lawyer of the Year"  Tom Mesereau. 

Dan Reed said he would love to make a film about the 2005 trial, but this is almost too much to hope for. 

Michael Jackson and James spend a lot of time together when James was 16 years old in 1994, after the train station was build.

Quote

(...)  James protected Jackson. As a “thank you for staying by my side”, Jackson invited James one more time in 1994, when he was 16 years old to Budapest:

He molested Wade a last time when Wade testified against him, right? While James says there wasn't "any molestation on that vacation, since Jackson’s wife Lisa Marie Presley was also around. In 1994-1995, Jackson allowed James to work with him. He was working on Jackson’s Earth Song video." 

James took the photos of the train station too right? I completely believe MJ molested James at lest one more time at that age, probably when he tried anal play as James described in the documentary, the last time abuse happened. He was probably ashamed he was 16 and either consciously or subconsciously told himself it happened when he was younger.

I mean, many people believe people can consent to sex at 16 with whoever they want. Remember the show Pretty Little Liars in which Arya had a relationship at 16 with her teacher? James had reason to fear admiting he was raped at that age.

Michael and James when James was 16 in 1994, AFTER THE TRAIN STATION WAS BUILT. I have no doubt MJ also molested him in this time, since he said it was how they expressed their "love"to each other.

https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2016/11/13/michael-jackson-and-james-safechuck-1987-1992/

Edited April 11, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[doodlebug]

33 minutes ago, Robert Lynch said:

Jackson family planning their own documentary Investigating Neverland

There is nothing normal about this family. Just zilch.

I see the article indicates that one of the 'stars' of this film is Brandi, Michael's niece.  I watched an interview with her and reported on it earlier in this thread.  In short, she was Wade's first girlfriend from the time they were 12 or so until they were 18.  She claims that Wade must be lying because, a) in all their years of dating, he never told her that her uncle had molested him and b) they ultimately broke up when she found out Wade had cheated on her while touring with Brittney Spears so he is obviously a liar who lies about everything.  And the Jackson defenders think Wade and James' stories are full of holes?   Another person interviewed is a sound engineer who worked with Michael in the studio where a lot of the boys were hanging around over the years.  How does he know Michael wasn't a pedophile?  Because he never saw Michael sexually assault a kid in the studio, of course, because, apparently, pedophiles attack their victims out in the open.  Also, he saw a lot of boys over the years and not a single one was unhappy or afraid or showed any signs of abuse; so clearly nothing bad ever happened to them in Michael's presence.  Finally, there's another interview with one of Michael's nephews who talks about the personal notes that Wade and James received from MJ which were flattering and encouraging.  Well, Michael wrote notes like that to him, too, and he was never molested; so, if Michael wrote similar things to Wade and James, there's your proof that they couldn't have been molested, either.

Once again, the Jackson family continues to ignore all of the information that is out there about pedophiles and how they operate and how their victims react in order to spin the fantasy that Michael was just too wonderful and childlike to have done it.  The fact that their so-called defense of Michael is so very, very weak indicates just how impossible it is to defend him.  They cannot claim he was never alone with young boys, that there were always adult chaperones, they aren't saying that he didn't have multiple security systems in place to warn him when anyone approached his bedroom.  They cannot even say that Michael didn't give the boys extravagant and somewhat inappropriate gifts (a wedding ring for a little kid? cars? houses?).  They're grasping at straws here and it shows.

[Dorne2.0]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I see the article indicates that one of the 'stars' of this film is Brandi, Michael's niece.  I watched an interview with her and reported on it earlier in this thread.  In short, she was Wade's first girlfriend from the time they were 12 or so until they were 18.  She claims that Wade must be lying because, a) in all their years of dating, he never told her that her uncle had molested him and b) they ultimately broke up when she found out Wade had cheated on her while touring with Brittney Spears so he is obviously a liar who lies about everything.  And the Jackson defenders think Wade and James' stories are full of holes?   Another person interviewed is a sound engineer who worked with Michael in the studio where a lot of the boys were hanging around over the years.  How does he know Michael wasn't a pedophile?  Because he never saw Michael sexually assault a kid in the studio, of course, because, apparently, pedophiles attack their victims out in the open.  Also, he saw a lot of boys over the years and not a single one was unhappy or afraid or showed any signs of abuse; so clearly nothing bad ever happened to them in Michael's presence.  Finally, there's another interview with one of Michael's nephews who talks about the personal notes that Wade and James received from MJ which were flattering and encouraging.  Well, Michael wrote notes like that to him, too, and he was never molested; so, if Michael wrote similar things to Wade and James, there's your proof that they couldn't have been molested, either.

Once again, the Jackson family continues to ignore all of the information that is out there about pedophiles and how they operate and how their victims react in order to spin the fantasy that Michael was just too wonderful and childlike to have done it.  The fact that their so-called defense of Michael is so very, very weak indicates just how impossible it is to defend him.  They cannot claim he was never alone with young boys, that there were always adult chaperones, they aren't saying that he didn't have multiple security systems in place to warn him when anyone approached his bedroom.  They cannot even say that Michael didn't give the boys extravagant and somewhat inappropriate gifts (a wedding ring for a little kid? cars? houses?).  They're grasping at straws here and it shows.

Well, I live in Brazil and before in the U.S and I was never mugged, robbed, never have been a victim of kidnapping and have never witnessed gun violence. Therefore, none of these things EVER happens in these two countries, they are the safest countries in the world.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[cpcathy]

The Jackson family is scum. Even Janet was never that talented.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Robert Lynch said:

Jackson family planning their own documentary Investigating Neverland

There is nothing normal about this family. Just zilch.

They won't have to try very hard.  If you type in "Leaving Neverland" on YouTube there are already hundreds of fan/family videos that come up "debunking" the documentary.  As a matter of fact, clicking on any link with "leaving neverland" in the title?  Will bring up almost exclusively videos "proving" that Reeds is a lying monster, and James and Wade are worse.

[Robert Lynch]

1 hour ago, Ubiquitous said:

Good point! I wondered about the ambiguous phrasing of that statement as well, in hindsight.

I don't think MJ had a subconscious death wish; I think he was overmedicated to the point that he no longer could sleep normally on his own, plus I got the impression he was surrounded by myrmidons who didn't want to rock the oat by telling him that his drug use was out of control and going to kill him.

That’s the reason for hanger-ons. You don’t want the money train to stop. He also had that London tour he promised to his fans.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[Kostgard]

1 hour ago, Dorne2.0 said:

He molested Wade a last time when Wade testified against him, right? While James says there wasn't "any molestation on that vacation, since Jackson’s wife Lisa Marie Presley was also around. In 1994-1995, Jackson allowed James to work with him. He was working on Jackson’s Earth Song video." 

Wade said the last time was at 14 (at a hotel or something - not at Neverland). He testified (the first time) at 11. So the abuse carried on for a few years after the trial. James would have been about 15 at the time of the first trial. Again, it makes more sense that MJ would follow the same pattern with James and continue the abuse like the did with Wade instead of suddenly keeping his hands to himself. Perhaps it was more sporadic because James was older, but I have a harder time believing that he didn't "thank" the boys who testified for him in similar ways - especially when MJ wasn't just buying him a gift or inviting him over for dinner. He took James on what was essentially his honeymoon for his fake marriage. He had him at Neverland playing Spielberg. James said MJ bought him a car when he turned 16 . It seems the whole thing was still very much going on to some extent or another when he was 15-16.

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

And the Jackson defenders think Wade and James' stories are full of holes?   Another person interviewed is a sound engineer who worked with Michael in the studio where a lot of the boys were hanging around over the years.  How does he know Michael wasn't a pedophile?  Because he never saw Michael sexually assault a kid in the studio, of course, because, apparently, pedophiles attack their victims out in the open.

Exactly. MJ wasn't stupid and he wasn't going to start making out with a kid in front of his sound engineer. Even Wade, who said he is absolutely convinced there are other victims, said that he never actually saw MJ do anything other than hug or kiss (I assume not on the lips) other boys. But he also saw him disappear behind closed doors with other boys, and he knew from personal experience what went on behind those closed doors.

[ruby24]

39 minutes ago, Kostgard said:

 Perhaps it was more sporadic because James was older, but I have a harder time believing that he didn't "thank" the boys who testified for him in similar ways - especially when MJ wasn't just buying him a gift or inviting him over for dinner. He took James on what was essentially his honeymoon for his fake marriage. He had him at Neverland playing Spielberg. James said MJ bought him a car when he turned 16 . It seems the whole thing was still very much going on to some extent or another when he was 15-16.

Yup. He "thanked" him for testifying by suddenly having him around again for a while (maybe months?), buying him a car, buying him all this camera equipment, buying his family that house.

Was it just buying him stuff and having him around or was it all that and some more sexual contact too? I mean, if he had convinced these boys that was all about love, then renewing that "love" would seem to go along with it, right? Even if it wasn't much more, because he was 15-16, it may still have occurred during that time, I bet. As part of his renewing their "relationship" and thanking him for what he did.

I'd be surprised if it didn't happen at all over that period.

[Fable]

8 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I go back and forth on whether Michael Jackson knew what he was doing was wrong, believed it wasn't wrong, or was so arrogant that he thought he could do whatever he wanted.

I have no problem believing Michael was developmentally stunted in as much as maintaining an adult relationship for him was not an option.  However, if as alleged, he told the boys that they would both go to jail for what they were doing, he certainly knew his actions were not legal. 

Even if someone was to think he never touched the kids sexually, how can you look at pictures of him in bed with Emmanuel Lewis and the baby bottles and not even accept that his behavior was inappropriate, sick and wrong.  At the very least, what he did was emotionally damaging to these children. 

[formerlyfreedom]

It's time for a reminder that the topic here is the Leaving Neverland documentary. Let's please get back on track; discussion of the documentary, James Safechuck, Wade Robson, and the Jackson family's response is on topic. There have been a lot of links to other sites and videos that are off topic; they will be removed going forward.

Thank you.

[Robert Lynch]

Returning to how Neverland looked like in 2003, I never realized how cluttered the place looked inside. From the outside, it was really nice. The inside felt like it was filled with so much unnecessary junk that wasn't really needed at all. It had more statues than I could count and it was very claustrophobic. Was he a hoarder? I know today the place is rid of MJ's arcades and other knickknacks, but when he lived there it seemed like a huge messy nightmare of a mansion.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[Dorne2.0]

17 hours ago, Fable said:

I have no problem believing Michael was developmentally stunted in as much as maintaining an adult relationship for him was not an option.  However, if as alleged, he told the boys that they would both go to jail for what they were doing, he certainly knew his actions were not legal. 

Even if someone was to think he never touched the kids sexually, how can you look at pictures of him in bed with Emmanuel Lewis and the baby bottles and not even accept that his behavior was inappropriate, sick and wrong.  At the very least, what he did was emotionally damaging to these children. 

Even if it was just friendships, he clearly gave them the world and made them believe he loved them and then he dumped them as they got older. Apparently he didn't like adults, but he himself could be a child in an adults body.  The emotional manipulation, the mental manipulation, that is abuse in itself.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Neko]

I don't think enough people understand just how damaging it can be for an adult to lavish attention on a small child and act like they are on the same level.  Even if no molestation takes place, it's still unhealthy for a child's emotional development, and does them no favors.  I would never consider myself to be friends with a ten year old, no matter how precocious or amazing that ten year old was.  There is too large of a gap, there, and going around, saying we were BFF's, and having sleepovers is so far removed from normal behavior, I can't wrap my head around it.  No fully functional adult is ever THAT innocent.  Why Michael Jackson gets a pass is beyond me.

[Robert Lynch]

I think it is important to notice that both James and Wade have good women who cared about them, despite whatever happened to them with MJ.  They supported them no matter what. That's dedication. 

[Dorne2.0]

On 3/4/2019 at 5:42 PM, maggiegil said:

This was suggested to me on youtube probably as I watched the trailer on there. I don't understand the cognitive dissonance of acknowledging that he had inappropriate relationships with boys, sleeping, showering with them etc. but refusing point blank to entertain the idea that he could have molested them. It really shows the power of celebrity.

Any other man who did what he admitted he did with young boys just even sleeping in the same bed as them would in no way get any kind of benefit of the doubt. If you watch the Bashir documentary, hes grooming his victim and I believe it happened to the men in the doc too.

How come the victims motivation can be called into question but the familys motivation to protect their cash cow isn't being questioned.

I just watched this video and I hate Wendy. Seriously, she didn't even watch at that point and is saying MJ is innocent.

She even defends Joe Jackson who was accused of abuse by Michael himself, not to mention Latoya. 

What kind of sociopath is her? I wonder if the family paid her off to try and sway public opinion.

"Joe Jackson did the best he could raising that family?" Come on, they have to have bought her off. No one in the world believes Joe Jackson was not abusive to his children. How many family members and friends of the family have said he was? I remember a friend of Michael in a documentary saying that once Michael said that if Joe ever hit him again he wouldn't sing anymore.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Diane Mars]

5 hours ago, Dorne2.0 said:

I just watched this video and FUCK YOU WENDY. Seriously, she didn't even watch at that point and is saying MJ is innocent.

She even defends Joe Jackson who was accused of abuse by Michael himself, not to mention Latoya. 

What kind of sociopath is her? I wonder if the family paid her off to try and sway public opinion.

"Joe Jackson did the best he could raising that family?" Come on, they have to have bought her off. No one in the world believes Joe Jackson was not abusive to his children. How many family members and friends of the family have said he was? I remember a friend of Michael in a documentary saying that once Michael said that if Joe ever hit him again he wouldn't sing anymore.

I've got a dear friend of mine (+25year of friendship !), who works for UN in Geneva. He's black and involved in the freedom of his native country, protecting minorities, etc... He's also a DJ/MC. Long story short : he didn't watch the docu, BUT has a lot of opinions about it.... As in "He was a great artist, you're crazy, he didn't do it !" Me : "OK. See the docu in English first, and let's discuss about it after". Him : "No. I won't, because they're only motivated by money, and they have lied, so they are liars. And you're stupid to believe them and he's dead. So who cares. And he didn't do it".

I'ts sad, knowing WHO this guy is, knowing what his fights for his country are [ETA : mostly rapes !!!!!]. I don't understand. And we haven't spoked since.... 😢
 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Diane Mars

[TigerLynx]

18 hours ago, Shakma said:

I don't think enough people understand just how damaging it can be for an adult to lavish attention on a small child and act like they are on the same level.  Even if no molestation takes place, it's still unhealthy for a child's emotional development, and does them no favors.  I would never consider myself to be friends with a ten year old, no matter how precocious or amazing that ten year old was.  There is too large of a gap, there, and going around, saying we were BFF's, and having sleepovers is so far removed from normal behavior, I can't wrap my head around it.  No fully functional adult is ever THAT innocent.  Why Michael Jackson gets a pass is beyond me.

This is another reason I dislike Michael Jackson.  Not only did he molest these children, he dropped them cold when they were no longer any use to him.  That is a very cruel thing to do to a kid.  If MJ really wanted to do something nice for sick and under privileged children, he would have followed Paul Newman's and Robert Redford's example.

I think Joe Jackson's treatment of his children was despicable, but that in no way gives Michael Jackson or anyone else a free pass to abuse other children.

[Melina22]

This is such a heavy, heavy thread (with good reason) that I thought I'd interject a light-hearted comment. 

For those who think Leaving Netherland has had no impact, last night SNL had a really funny sketch set on a cruise ship. The entertainment in the lounge was as billed as a Frank Sinatra tribute band, and all the audience are Sinatra fans, but the performers are clearly dressed as MJ and the Jackson 5, only they're calling themselves Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack 5. 

When they launch into My Way (basically Billie Jean, with the words My Way substituted) the audience starts protesting. The performers explain that until the previous week they'd been MJ impersonators but now no one wanted to see that, but they needed to keep working so decided to do Frank Sinatra. Unfortunately they couldn't afford new arrangements, costumes or choreography. 

Halfway through, McCauley Caulkin moonwalks through. When the audience yells that this is inappropriate, the performers explain that the McCauley impersonator still needed work and it wasn't her fault that Frank Sinatra didn't hang around with "little white dudes". 

Probably some people would say this isn't a laughing matter, but I've always believed that humour is one of the best ways we have to deal with and heal from pain. Personally, I found it funny and it helped me feel better. And clearly this documentary has reached a very wide audience. 

[Dorne2.0]

5 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Probably some people would say this isn't a laughing matter, but I've always believed that humour is one of the best ways we have to deal with and heal from pain. Personally, I found it funny and it helped me feel better. And clearly this documentary has reached a very wide audience. 

I agree and I have to confess that I love this video: 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Melina22]

Whoa! Those were savage attacks! I didn't watch SNL during those years, so I had no idea! How did he not get sued? How did Michael not get arrested? 

Wow, now I really want to hear Norm McDonald's reaction to Leaving Neverland! He must feel so vindicated! 

[Dorne2.0]

8 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Whoa! Those were savage attacks! I didn't watch SNL during those years, so I had no idea! How did he not get sued? How did Michael not get arrested? 

Wow, now I really want to hear Norm McDonald's reaction to Leaving Neverland! He must feel so vindicated! 

He was incredible. I guess Jackson didn't want to make it look like it got to him, and those were other times. I don't find the abuse funny, but this guy constantly reminding people that MJ was a pedophile was great.

Just like 30 Rock had that scene that hinted at Bill Cosby. Just look for 30 Rock Bill Cosby on Youtube.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Razzberry]

I love this thread. It's good to be among sane clear-thinking people who are not so star-struck that they willfully blind themselves to the truth of crimes against little children.  It's very much like a cult.  Sometimes all you can do is laugh, and be thankful you're not a member.

[Razzberry]

Norm McDonald comments on Michael Jackson being sued for plagiarism

hilarious!

I think Norm and SNL weren't sued for slander because parody and satire are strongly protected in the Constitution.  And essentially MJ would have to prove he wasn't a homosexual pedophile.  Even his celebrity lawyers didn't want to go there.  😁

Edited April 7, 2019 by Razzberry

[Robert Lynch]

MJ TV Funhouse spoof

It's funny how The animation results to the Hanna Barbara style of these MJ spoofs from Tv Funhouse. I wonder what Robert Smigel thinks about it now. SNL had no boundaries back then. Neither did Mad TV.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[Kostgard]

That’s the amazing/infuriating thing about the spoofs and the Norm MacDonald stuff - we knew. On some level, we all knew (except the people who swallowed his wounded star child bullshit) and we always knew. A grown man sharing his bed with children who aren’t his own just ain’t right and sets off the alarm bells in most reasonable people. 

But because he was Michael Jackson, no one did anything about it, so we did what you do when you feel helpless or cynical about a situation - you make jokes about it. Except now there are names to those faces we saw with MJ. Robert Smigel jokes about MJ and boys in Budapest? Yeah, that joke was probably based on James, who accompanied MJ to that city. Now it’s kind of a kick in the gut because we see the results of what MJ was doing.

And the thing that gets me about the super-fans who cry “Why didn’t the parents see what was happening if it was so terrible? Why did they let their kids around him?” and mark that down as proof that it never happened is they can’t even see the parallels. I want to say, “Because they were just like you. They saw MJ as a god who could do no wrong and they waved away anything suspicious or negative as impossible.” Then they learned the truth. Even Wade’s sister said, “I was one of those people who assumed his accusers just wanted money. Now I’m on the other side of it.”

Edited April 8, 2019 by Kostgard

[Dorne2.0]

13 hours ago, Kostgard said:

That’s the amazing/infuriating thing about the spoofs and the Norm MacDonald stuff - we knew. On some level, we all knew (except the people who swallowed his wounded star child bullshit) and we always knew. A grown man sharing his bed with children who aren’t his own just ain’t right and sets off the alarm bells in most reasonable people. 

But because he was Michael Jackson, no one did anything about it, so we did what you do when you feel helpless or cynical about a situation - you make jokes about it. Except now there are names to those faces we saw with MJ. Robert Smigel jokes about MJ and boys in Budapest? Yeah, that joke was probably based on James, who accompanied MJ to that city. Now it’s kind of a kick in the gut because we see the results of what MJ was doing.

And the thing that gets me about the super-fans who cry “Why didn’t the parents see what was happening if it was so terrible? Why did they let their kids around him?” and mark that down as proof that it never happened is they can’t even see the parallels. I want to say, “Because they were just like you. They saw MJ as a god who could do no wrong and they waved away anything suspicious or negative as impossible.” Then they learned the truth. Even Wade’s sister said, “I was one of those people who assumed his accusers just wanted money. Now I’m on the other side of it.”

You are right, realizing we all let him get away with it, or that we felt helpless about not being able do do anything but make jokes, maybe that's why its so infuriating now and why we fell so protective of these men. We, as a society, failed them. So that's why it pisses me off when people try and destroy their credibility or make death threats. I am tired of the same old excuses "Wade dated Brandi, James got a date wrong". My parents were fans but we haven't really bought any of his music since the Jordan case and now I can't even listen to it again without feeling sick.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[RealReality10]

*sigh* well, that sucked 😞

[Dorne2.0]

1 minute ago, RealReality10 said:

*sigh* well, that sucked 😞

Just seen it? 

[RealReality10]

Just now, Dorne2.0 said:

Just seen it? 

Yes 😞

I just don't think I could listen to mj without risking a rage stroke.  

[Dorne2.0]

Just now, RealReality10 said:

Yes 😞

I just don't think I could listen to mj without risking a rage stroke.  

I could not sleep at night when I watched. It's pretty horrendous. Word of advice, don't try to discuss it with Mj's cult of fans. It is pointless. They are spreading false information (saying the FBI investigated MJ for ten years and found nothing - it's false, they never did a independant investigation on him, they gave the police tech support and investigated an indidual who was trying to extort MJ, said individual went to jail). And they keep trying to pick the men's stories apart, they expect them to remember everything perfectly (it happened decades ago). His fans are making death threats to anyone who say they believe in these men on Facebook or on Youtube. And they keep repeating the same things to try and destroy these two men. It's kind of crazy, I got attacked on youtube and there was always a bunch of replies with huge texts. I had to block notifications.

[Ubiquitous]

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 1:13 AM, Shakma said:

So, I decided to re-watch Martin Bashir's documentary from 2003, on YouTube.  In light of what we've heard from Robson and Safechuck, it's even more disturbing than it was, originally.  One thing that really stuck out to me is when Bashir asks MJ if he likes wearing jewelry, and MJ giggles nervously and says, "No, but I like buying jewelry for special ladies."  Replace "ladies" with "boys", and you can't help but think of James Safechuck.  Good god.

I can't remember if he was broke, but in the Bashir doc, he spends a shit-ton of money on gaudy crap, and doesn't even bother to keep track of the amount of money he's spending.  Bashir remarks that MJ spent half a million dollars on two big, Louis XIV looking vases at a Vegas shop, and he bought like, twenty other items, on top of those.  So, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he was nearly broke by the end of his life.  MJ was reckless with his spending.

If memory serves, they were about to foreclose on the Neverland Ranch around the time MJ died.

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 4:05 AM, kelslamu said:

I just came across a documentary done in 2007 where people who knew Michael and/or worked for him are interviewed.  Not all the way through it, but just hearing his friend talk about him is interesting.  I've yet to see anything or remember seeing anything that even makes me think he was ever sincere.  Maybe sincere in his delusions about things, but wonder now even about that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyMKdS29Lbw

Wow!

[Robert Lynch]

2 hours ago, Ubiquitous said:

If memory serves, they were about to foreclose on the Neverland Ranch around the time MJ died.

Wow!

His London tour was scheduled to get him out of debt. I wondered how much would have covered his fees and the rest had he lived. 

[Simon Boccanegra]

On 4/7/2019 at 11:50 AM, Melina22 said:

Whoa! Those were savage attacks! I didn't watch SNL during those years, so I had no idea! How did he not get sued? How did Michael not get arrested? 

Wow, now I really want to hear Norm McDonald's reaction to Leaving Neverland! He must feel so vindicated! 

Norm was, at least up to that point in the show's history, my favorite Weekend Update anchor ever. Way better than Chevy or Dennis, his most famed predecessors. If you thought the MJ jokes were savage, you should have heard the OJ material that ultimately got him fired. (NBC's Don Ohlmeyer was a personal friend of OJ's.) 

I remembered some bits from that Michael joke montage, but missed others, The one about Michael's 3-day-old son being a chip off the old block was new to me, and it made me laugh out loud now, in 2019. While reading the Leaving Neverland thread! Thanks, Norm. 

[Robert Lynch]

What makes it interesting about the celebrities MJ was best friends with, you don't hear one peep from Quincy Jones, Berry Gordy, Liza Minnelli, Chris Tucker, Greg Phillinganes, Jeffrey Daniels, and many others who were there for him when Leaving Neverland came out. Other than Diana Ross, it was not really a huge turnout. Not that shocking.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[Ubiquitous]

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 12:58 PM, Scarlett45 said:

My Mom asked about this while watching the documentary, and I speculated it could have been that 1. A young black child would’ve been too close to reliving his own childhood trauma (if that’s what happened to him- it’s not unlikely), 2. Opportunity- Michael tended to target kids in show business or who wanted to be in show business and that audience was predominately white, 3. A self loathing of his own blackness that made him “attracted” to these very handsome white children due in part to their whiteness. 

I am not aware of the racial composition of MJ's "companions", but I had forgotten about him hanging out with "Webster". I wonder if MJ thought he got lucky knowing someone who would always look like a child? (Yuck)

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 3:11 PM, Robert Lynch said:

This girl is mentally unstable

Being part of that family can't be good for Paris. I am worried about her.

Wow, I guess MJ didn't think she needed education, either.

[Blakeston]

I remember Norm MacDonald making fun of MJ. I'm glad he was willing to call out MJ for being a child molester, but I don't think he did it out of solidarity for his victims, or anything like that. The tone of it was more like "ha ha, look at this gay weirdo who likes little boys!"

He made a big deal out of MJ being "gay," even though a grown man who molests pre-pubescent boys is certainly not gay. MacDonald has a long history of being very homophobic and offensive in general. He's lost a lot of gigs lately because of his insistence on defending Roseanne.

[TigerLynx]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 9:48 PM, Dorne2.0 said:

You are right, realizing we all let him get away with it, or that we felt helpless about not being able do do anything but make jokes, maybe that's why its so infuriating now and why we fell so protective of these men. We, as a society, failed them. So that's why it pisses me off when people try and destroy their credibility or make death threats. I am tired of the same old excuses "Wade dated Brandi, James got a date wrong". My parents were fans but we haven't really bought any of his music since the Jordan case and now I can't even listen to it again without feeling sick.

One of the things that keeps people from reporting rape, molestation, etc., is that they are violated all over again by the system, and that's when they file complaints against people who don't have the wealth, power, and fame that MJ did.

[Umbelina]

10 Undeniable Facts About the Michael Jackson Sexual-Abuse Allegations

The author, who spent more than a decade covering the scandal for V.F., shares the key revelations and insights that viewers of the new HBO documentary Leaving Neverland need to know.

by

Maureen Orth

(The links to the previous articles she's written about MJ and various abuse, including Wade's and James' are below the article.  Oh, and WOW.)

Quote

The anguished voice of Wade Robson’s father will always haunt me. Back in 1993, when the first charges of sexual abuse were leveled at Michael Jackson by a 13-year-old boy named Jordan “Jordie” Chandler, I was assigned to write about the case for Vanity Fair. I naturally wanted to know if Jackson had befriended any other young boys, and it wasn’t long before I heard the names Wade Robson and Jimmy Safechuck.

Wade’s mother, Joy, wasn’t talking, but his father, Dennis, surprised me by returning my call from his home in Australia. Dennis explained that Joy had taken Wade and his sister to Los Angeles so Wade could be with Jackson, adding that he was afraid that he might lose his son if he said anything against the pop superstar. Dennis’s sorrow was compounded by his own dark secret: he himself had been molested as a child, he told me, and had been unable to bring himself to tell anyone for 30 years.

Then, a week later, Dennis Robson called me back.

(con't)

Edited April 10, 2019 by Umbelina
added comment about the previous articles from this writer.

[Robert Lynch]

The interview with Gayle King was interesting.

[Dorne2.0]

On 4/9/2019 at 2:20 PM, Blakeston said:

I remember Norm MacDonald making fun of MJ. I'm glad he was willing to call out MJ for being a child molester, but I don't think he did it out of solidarity for his victims, or anything like that. The tone of it was more like "ha ha, look at this gay weirdo who likes little boys!"

He made a big deal out of MJ being "gay," even though a grown man who molests pre-pubescent boys is certainly not gay. MacDonald has a long history of being very homophobic and offensive in general. He's lost a lot of gigs lately because of his insistence on defending Roseanne.

I see your point, I wasn't old enough to watch SNL when Norm was there, I just saw these compilations lately and thought he had a dark sense of humor, and  it was a comedy show so his delivery had to be funny. I checked on his O.J Simpson jokes and they are pretty savage too, and dark, like when he said Ron's last words were probably "Hey! You are O. J. Simpson!" (if I were Ron's family I would be hurt by that joke.). Though I did gave the expression homossexual pedophile a second look, I guess I thought "Well, those were the lates 90's".

Edited April 10, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Kostgard]

The other Vanity Fair piece worth a read is this one where she does a deep dive on the Jordy Chandler case. While she mentions Wade and James in the article (written originally back in the '90s, I believe) by name only to ID them as the kid who went on tour with MJ and the kid who did an interview on the news saying MJ never did anything to him, she also mentions incidents without naming anyone that we now know are about Wade and James. The stuff with Wade's dad calling her is especially sad. And outside of that, you see that MJ used the exact same methods to groom him that he did with Wade and James, including basically moving into the Chandler house (he seemed to do that with James, and he also did that with Emmanuel Lewis). 

And speaking of Emmanuel Lewis - I was able to believe that maybe nothing happened there, but the article mentions that he and MJ tried to check into a hotel together as father and son(!), so...yeah.

Other interesting tidbit I ran across today about Jordy - the podcast I mentioned in a previous post that was discussing this case was the "Real Crime Profile" podcast. One of the hosts, Jim Clemente, can be a bit much (he gets really yell-y when he's worked up about stuff) so I don't listen to them unless the topic of the week really interests me, but he is a former FBI agent and he was with the FBI during the time of the Gavin case. Jodry was paid off for his case, so he didn't testify. He did, however, speak to the FBI while they were helping the local PD gather evidence for the Gavin case, and Jim Clemente said that all of Jordy's story lined up with what Gavin said, but Jordy did not want to press criminal charges himself. He did say he would be willing to go forward with a Federal criminal case if things didn't go well with the Gavin case, but by the time they could get things lined up, the statute of limitations had run out.

They also talk about why it takes victims so long to come forward (especially male victims) and why they frequently start out lying about it (it's actually all part of the incremental disclosure process).

Gayle King has another interview with a psychologist that talks about why it takes so long to disclose.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Kostgard

[Swartz]

Interesting

[Dorne2.0]

Wade had already said the items were fake. It was symbolic. Wade may not be a perfect victim, but I fully believe MJ sexually abused him, James and other children. 

Really, Michael Jackson slept in bed with little boys and dumped them when they got older, he had "art books" of little boys and teen boys naked...alarms that told him when people got near his bedroom. Wade may not have handled the abuse well at first, but I believe the abuse ocurred, Michael is the one that is unbelievable.  Wade may not be the victim people would find most sympathetic but I have no problem understanding things Wade did that doesn't paint him in the best light, like his reaction of anger when his father  visited, or him testifying in 2005... selling those items? I do not care a bit.

I believed in Jordan in the first place.

Also, abused victims may need or want money as compensation too, and that is not awful, abusing kids is awful.

 

2 hours ago, SnK said:

Interesting

About James we discussed it a lot already. 

Michael and James when James was 16 in 1994, AFTER THE TRAIN STATION WAS BUILT. I have no doubt MJ also molested him in this time, since he said it was how they expressed their "love" to each other.

"Terry George was close friends with Michael Jackson between the ages of 13 and 15. He claims that Michael Jackson once sexually harassed him over the telephone when he was thirteen years old. According to him, it was a single incident."

"Jordan Chandler was a 13-year-old boy who travelled with Michael Jackson in 1993. He spent 70 nights sleeping with Michael Jackson over a 5 month period. He later accused Michael Jackson of sexual abuse and Jackson payed him and his family off with 22 million dollars."

"Michael Jacobshagen (1998). He has accused Jackson of molestation taking place when he was fourteen years old in 1998."

Plus Gavin, Wade and James.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Razzberry]

Hyper-focusing on minor details that are easily explained while ignoring the substance of the allegations changes nothing.  At best it's denial by SWALLOWS, or Star Worshipping Apologists Legion Lack Objectiveness on Wacko.  That's assuming naiveté on their part, which may be true for some fans, but certainly not all of them.  Their motives are dark, murky, and dangerous.

"I may misremember indifferent circumstances, but can be right in substance." Thomas Jefferson,  1821

[Dorne2.0]

6 hours ago, SnK said:

Interesting

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations/amp

10 Undeniable Facts About the Michael Jackson Sexual-Abuse Allegations

1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced.

2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.”

3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson.

4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.

5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.

6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.

7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.

8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet.

9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.

10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.

MJ also refers to Michael Jacobshagen as Rubba Rubba. And doesn't he refer to one the boys in that video posted before as applehead too? This is the book Jacobshagen says MJ gave him and it refers to him as Rubba Rubba and it's an art book of naked boys and teens. 

On this video posted by Robert Lynch, at 00: 21 Michael says "he's an applehead". He called James Applehead and Wade Little One...

Edited April 11, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Dorne2.0 said:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations/amp

10 Undeniable Facts About the Michael Jackson Sexual-Abuse Allegations

1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced.

2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.”

3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson.

4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.

5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.

6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.

7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.

8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet.

9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.

10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.

MJ also refers to Michael Jacobshagen as Rubba Rubba. And doesn't he refer to one the boys in that video posted before as applehead too? This is the book Jacobshagen says MJ gave him and it refers to him as Rubba Rubba and it's an art book of naked boys and teens. 

On this video posted by Robert Lynch, at 00: 21 Michael says "he's an applehead". 

Sums it up pretty good. How anyone can look at that list and not see molestation I don't know. 

I also really can't imagine any adult celebrity or not asking to share a bed with my child. How is that not a hell no, get out of my house before I call the cops or grabbing my kid and getting him out of Neverland as fast as I could, and threats of violence if he ever contacted my kid again. I can't imagine saying yes to that question.    

[Diane Mars]

13 hours ago, Kostgard said:

The other Vanity Fair piece worth a read is this one where she does a deep dive on the Jordy Chandler case. While she mentions Wade and James in the article (written originally back in the '90s, I believe) by name only to ID them as the kid who went on tour with MJ and the kid who did an interview on the news saying MJ never did anything to him, she also mentions incidents without naming anyone that we now know are about Wade and James. The stuff with Wade's dad calling her is especially sad. And outside of that, you see that MJ used the exact same methods to groom him that he did with Wade and James, including basically moving into the Chandler house (he seemed to do that with James, and he also did that with Emmanuel Lewis)....

HOW is that possible that the abuses went for SO LONG ! Where were we when those boys were groomed and abused ? It makes me sick to read, again and again, the same story, in which only the names and dates are changed, but the story is always the same. That's insane ! 😭)

[Dorne2.0]

25 minutes ago, Diane Mars said:

HOW is that possible that the abuses went for SO LONG ! Where were we when those boys were groomed and abused ? It makes me sick to read, again and again, the same story, in which only the names and dates are changed, but the story is always the same. That's insane ! 😭)

"Jamie began to withdraw from everyone else, no longer playing with other kids. Eventually, he wouldn't speak to his father and six-year-old half-brother, even on the phone. He and Michael were quickly labeled "inseparable." They played with slingshots and squirt guns. They threw water balloons off the balcony of Michael's condo in Century City onto passing cars." 

(...)

 "It was the first night Michael and Jamie would share the same bed, Michael wearing sweats, Jamie wearing pajamas. Michael had rented The Exorcist, and Jamie got scared. His mother and sister stayed in another bedroom in the suite. The next night the two wanted to sleep together again. But a confrontation ensued, because Jamie's mother objected.

At this point, claim insiders who believe the case against Jackson, Michael began to cry, telling Jamie's mother, "This is about being a family, not making judgments." He declared his love for each of them and pleaded, "Why don't you trust me? If we're a family, you've got to think of me as a brother. Why make me feel so bad? This is a bond. It's not about sex. This is something special." He then said Jamie could sleep wherever he wanted to. That did it—Jamie's mother was won over. From that night on, with few exceptions, she allowed 13-year-old Jamie and his 34-year-old rich and powerful friend to share the same bed for more than three months. Michael essentially moved in, and lived with Jamie in one room of the family's small, unpretentious house in Santa Monica Canyon while his little friend went to school."

(...)

"Minor stated Mr. Jackson told minor that minor would go to Juvenile Hall if he told and that they'd both be in trouble. Minor also said Mr. Jackson told him about other boys he had 'done this with' but he didn't go as far with 'them.' [Jamie gave authorities the names of four other boys Michael allegedly told him about. Macaulay Culkin's name appeared in the report, but he has denied any wrongdoing on the part of Jackson.] Minor stated Mr. Jackson tried to make him hate his mo. and fa. so that he could only go to Mr. Jackson."

(...)

"Then Jamie's father saw Jackson and Jamie in bed together. They were fully clothed, but his suspicions were aroused. Michael and Jamie told him, he has said, that they couldn't stand Jamie's mother, and that she hated his wife. They seemed to be playing the parents off against one another. Jamie's father eventually came to believe that because of Michael "there is no family anymore." Jamie's mother, with whom the dentist had always enjoyed a friendly relationship, scoffed at his concerns."

Oh my God... there are some pretty gross details in there, but I'm quoting the grooming part because it shows how manipulative M.J was. Bastard.

BTW, Jordan's dad deal was 20 million in a trust fund for Jordan and 2.5 million to each parent... 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Diane Mars]

And it's so weird, because the only other dad (and thanks to both of them ! Dad's are apparently more suspicious than mothers, in all those cases !) who was speaking -and then retracting- was Jame's dad 😢