S14.E13: Lebanon (Episode 300)

[ILoveReading]

What I dislike about the whole, John based his actions because he remembered and thought it was true,  theory is that the whitewashes all of John's actions and undermines the complicated relationship both brothers had with him.

Because  then it becomes, John had to leave Dean to send him to Sam or that he had to ignore them to make sure they leaned on each other. 

I never thought John was a good father, but I never disliked the character becasue at least he was interesting and the conflict with his sonce compelling to watch. He had so many layers.  JDM is a great actor. 

This just turns him into another Dabbnatural character.  Everything is just fluff, and one note.  John didn't mess up.  He had to do it.

I like the original history.

Edited February 18, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

42 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

When John called the boys in Scarecrow he said...

SAM: You’re after it, aren’t you? The thing that killed Mom.

JOHN: Yeah. It’s a demon, Sam.

SAM: A demon? You know for sure?

DEAN: A demon? What’s he saying?

JOHN: I do.

The implication I always got from that conversation was that John had just recently (like just before the Pilot when he went "missing") discovered what had attacked Sam and Mary.  Anyway that bit of conversation always stood out to me.  

That just means he told them then.  I'm not saying he did know earlier just that he might have. Dean had a line in some episode about "Dad and his secrets."  And we know that at some point he was torturing demons (which I think is a retcon, but it was stated so it's now canon) so that would point to him knowing demonic involvement earlier.

[ILoveReading]

http://tippitv.tumblr.com/post/182880933345/supernatural-tippitv-recap-13-13-lebanon

This says so many things I agree with. 

In particular this.

Quote

I feel the episode does a disservice to its main characters. I’ve already ranted more than enough so I’ll just pick one example:

If Sam had gone on to live a normal life, he would’ve become a cold-hearted douchebag who tells people that hobbies and families are a waste of time. Like, ha ha yes it’s amusing that Sam is the leaf-munching Steve Jobs of law, but what’s the meaning here? Are we saying that wanting to get an education for himself means he’s a selfish asshole? Like this is the alternative to the codependent relationship with Dean that formed because of their father? Argh.

The John apologia is just so clunky and unnecessary. John could’ve said, “I should’ve done more than teach you to hunt monsters… prepared you for a normal life so you could have a family.” Then Dean ccould say, “Being able to kill monsters kept us alive long enough so that we figured out things for ourselves. And we do have a family.” Bam! It lets John be rueful without rewriting the past or having Dean swallow all the years of hurt and it even acknowledges that knowing how to hunt isn’t a bad thing.

[juppschmitz]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

http://tippitv.tumblr.com/post/182880933345/supernatural-tippitv-recap-13-13-lebanon

This says so many things I agree with. 

In particular this.

Does anyone know any other snarky/critical recaps? I know Nash does them on tumblr, but mostly I see the squee/jazz hands kind of review that alway find everything beautiful and hitting them right in the feels and I'm just blech... 

[FlickChick]

On 2/18/2019 at 3:23 AM, juppschmitz said:

Does anyone know any other snarky/critical recaps? I know Nash does them on tumblr, but mostly I see the squee/jazz hands kind of review that alway find everything beautiful and hitting them right in the feels and I'm just blech... 

I haven't read them all, but this is a site I believe someone here recommended. I've enjoyed the reviews I've read. Not necessarily snarky, but IMO critical and honest.

http://thesnowleopard.net/thehistoricalmeow/2018/10/17/supernatural-season-14/

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I haven't read them all, but this is a site I believe someone here recommended. I've enjoyed the reviews I've read. Not necessarily snarky, but IMO critical and honest.

http://thesnowleopard.net/thehistoricalmeow/2018/10/17/supernatural-season-14/

Thanks @FlickChick! I'm really enjoying this site 😊

[supposebly]

So, after quitting this show after season 10 and the stupid killing Death debacle (or rather the Carver years that slowly made me hate the Winchesters), I had heard JDM was coming back, so I watched. And I wish I hadn't. While it was a nice piece of Winchester family fluff and Supernatural nostalgia, I also think this wasn't particularly on point. Closure episodes had been done before and frankly, much much better, such as in In My Time of Dying or in The Song Remains the Same. Or even the one with Grandpa Winchester. 

But I guess 2003 Castiel has forgotten that he doesn't have to engage in fisticuffs with mere humans. Or rather the show has forgotten that a human shouldn't be able to engage with an angel. At all. At least Zachariah hasn't forgotten to be a prick.

Not sure what to think about the Mary thing and I don't really care much but I loved JDM's reaction to her voice.

So overall, all this episode has achieved to remind me how good this show used to be, that the actors are still bringing it and that it's been way way way way past its sell-by date.

And that JDM can have my babies.

[S Cook Productions]

5 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I haven't read them all, but this is a site I believe someone here recommended. I've enjoyed the reviews I've read. Not necessarily snarky, but IMO critical and honest.

http://thesnowleopard.net/thehistoricalmeow/2018/10/17/supernatural-season-14/

Just read a lot from this site. Fun and funny, thanks! 

[catrox14]

Even though I mostly disliked this episode, this is a pretty cute drawing.  I always like Lord Mesa's work.

[The Companion]

On 2/9/2019 at 4:48 AM, Iguana said:

 

That being said, damn JDM/John is seriously hot and I hope Mary and he found a bit of privacy before the pearl got smashed. 

I read the end of this too fast and thought you said you hoped her pearl got smashed. I was like: "huh, that's a new euphemism for me." 😆

 

On 2/9/2019 at 9:13 AM, icemiser69 said:

I like JDM as an actor, but after watching him on TWD, it is hard for me to care about his character on Supernatural.  His character (Nagen) on TWD is flat out obnoxious and annoying.   That is a writing problem, not a JDM problem.  As I have said, I like JDM.  When I saw him on Supernatural, all I saw was Nagen.

Negan has seriously ruined my enjoyment of anything with JDM.

On 2/9/2019 at 4:23 PM, sarthaz said:

All. The. Feels. Let's be honest, the writing on the show has mostly sucked for years, so standards are lower; but for as much crap as I give Dabb and his team for slowly ruining the show, I still LOVE this show. And this was a genuine effort to do something lovely. It's filled with problems, and I just don't care. I immediately forgave everything as soon as John heard Mary's voice. This was the best performance of Sam's career and one of the few times I've given a shit about Mary. I basically started crying the moment John and Mary reunited and didn't stop until the credits rolled. Certainly it was manipulative, but I care too much about these characters to not be moved.

Yeah. It was cheesy and it ignored a lot to get where it was going, but it still gave me the feels, in part because they sold the hell out of it. 

On 2/9/2019 at 11:21 PM, Dobian said:

I see a lot of comments about the episode not going deep enough and just being emotionally manipulative.  I think Dean summed it up best in the episode when he told Sam, "Why can't you just give me this?"  As in, let's put all the other crap aside for one damn day and just enjoy the moment with our parents.  And that's what this episode was, a respite from all the crap in the series to just enjoy the moment with these characters.  This show goes deep all the time, sometimes too deep for its own good.  Melodrama for the sake of melodrama.  Sam and Dean with the weight of the world on their shoulders, again...and again.  This episode didn't need to and didn't want to go places that have been gone to a zillion times on this show already.  Like Dean said, just give it a rest for a day, or in our case, an episode.  And enjoy the moment.

I think that was where I landed. It was sweet. There were some good moments. Were they all earned? No. I mean, it sorta felt like fan fiction with a note at the beginning that says: I discarded some of the canon to get to the fluff. 

I don't really see myself going back to this one, but i enjoyed it despite its very clear flaws.

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I think that was where I landed. It was sweet. There were some good moments. Were they all earned? No. I mean, it sorta felt like fan fiction with a note at the beginning that says: I discarded some of the canon to get to the fluff. 

I don't really see myself going back to this one, but i enjoyed it despite its very clear flaws.

My main problem is *how much* crap you have to wade through to get to the sweet moments.  I've pretty much wiped it from my memory, but had to dredge up the horrible memories of the rest of the ep:  the idiotic/boring teens, the red herring teddy bear,  the ridiculous Gacy (?) ghost, the whole idea of the pearl (and the fact that wanting his dad back was Dean's deepest wish?), and even the incredibly stupid fanservice of bringing back Zachariah and Evil Cas, just to get to about 10 minutes of cheesy but sweet moments.  

I think if we made a squee reel of all the truly good moments from the last two seasons, it would be about 15 minutes long.  Maybe a half hour's worth if everyone can pick their own choices.  

[The Companion]

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

My main problem is *how much* crap you have to wade through to get to the sweet moments.  I've pretty much wiped it from my memory, but had to dredge up the horrible memories of the rest of the ep:  the idiotic/boring teens, the red herring teddy bear,  the ridiculous Gacy (?) ghost, the whole idea of the pearl (and the fact that wanting his dad back was Dean's deepest wish?), and even the incredibly stupid fanservice of bringing back Zachariah and Evil Cas, just to get to about 10 minutes of cheesy but sweet moments.  

I think if we made a squee reel of all the truly good moments from the last two seasons, it would be about 15 minutes long.  Maybe a half hour's worth if everyone can pick their own choices.  

Sad but true from what I have seen of them so far.

Agreed that there was a lot of foolishness to get to the sweet parts. I won't rehash it all, but agreed there were some glaring issues. It probably helped that my expectations have been set by those of y'all who tried to warn me (and because I had no previews or expectations). Also, it came in a season that I am struggling to enjoy, so I will take anything. 😆😭

[BoxManLocke]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but to me this episode was the final confirmation that the writers didn't care anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I thought it was okay. But that's only thanks to the amazing work of the cast who entirely did the heavy lifting in scenes we'd been waiting for for over a decade.

Apart from that, the plot was shit, and dialogue/character exploration were shallow. It felt like hastily written fanfiction. And if that's all Dabb and the rest had it store for such a major milestone, things were never going to get better.

Most of what sticks with me about this episode is that Angel's I Will Remember You, an episode with a similar premise that was made 20 years ago, was so much better in every possible way.

[Terese]

On 6/29/2020 at 4:04 AM, The Companion said:

Sad but true from what I have seen of them so far.

Agreed that there was a lot of foolishness to get to the sweet parts. I won't rehash it all, but agreed there were some glaring issues. It probably helped that my expectations have been set by those of y'all who tried to warn me (and because I had no previews or expectations). Also, it came in a season that I am struggling to enjoy, so I will take anything. 😆😭

It is such a sad consensus of some, who clearly loved the show for years or months, to struggle through out of habit or in an attempt to glimpse a moment of something good. 

An episode about love of family and a reunion as they (we) journey towards the end, could not be just that and nothing more. 

 

[Terese]

1 hour ago, BoxManLocke said:

Probably an unpopular opinion, but to me this episode was the final confirmation that the writers didn't care anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I thought it was okay. But that's only thanks to the amazing work of the cast who entirely did the heavy lifting in scenes we'd been waiting for for over a decade.

Apart from that, the plot was shit, and dialogue/character exploration were shallow. It felt like hastily written fanfiction. And if that's all Dabb and the rest had it store for such a major milestone, things were never going to get better.

Most of what sticks with me about this episode is that Angel's I Will Remember You, an episode with a similar premise that was made 20 years ago, was so much better in every possible way.

It is the reflection of the emotional maturity of a grown man writing/showrunning a show about the journey of grown men.  Shallow impermanence bouncing from this to that, barely grazing the surface of anything he touches.

[ILoveReading]

On 6/28/2020 at 11:31 PM, ahrtee said:

and the fact that wanting his dad back was Dean's deepest wish?)

Not that the episode was great or anything, but I don't think John showing up was a literal wish about John showing up.   Dean believed at this point he was going to spend eternity at the bottom of the ocean, so I felt it was more about wanting to be with his family one last time before that happened. 

But then I'm probably giving the writers too much credit. 

It was disappointing that Dean never got the confrontation he so desperately needed with John.  I felt the writers really screwed that up.  Dean's speech would have made more sense coming out of Sam's mouth or directed at John.  They had the wrong brother confront the wrong parent. 

[Aeryn13]

I guess we can say with a good amount of certainty now that Dean will never get a real convo with John like Sam had in this one. And the meaningless scene Dean had with his father was supposed to be the "closure".

Whereas I would have actually taken their last scene in IMTOD as a good cap-off point (not closure) for the characters if this episode didn’t have the set-up of John being back to be Dean's wish. If you set that up, you should pay it off. And they didn"t at all. Dean was the one character here without any pay-off. As it was, it should have been Sam or Mary's wish. Or some random plot shenanigans. Anything other than what it was.

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I guess we can say with a good amount of certainty now that Dean will never get a real convo with John like Sam had in this one. And the meaningless scene Dean had with his father was supposed to be the "closure".

Whereas I would have actually taken their last scene in IMTOD as a good cap-off point (not closure) for the characters if this episode didn’t have the set-up of John being back to be Dean's wish. If you set that up, you should pay it off. And they didn"t at all. Dean was the one character here without any pay-off. As it was, it should have been Sam or Mary's wish. Or some random plot shenanigans. Anything other than what it was.

Dean got to confront Mary (who Amara thought was his greatest need) and it was all about Sam.

Dean got to have his father back because the pearl thought it was his greatest wish, and it was... all about Sam. 

Yes, Andre Badd, we get it. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[FlickChick]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean got to confront Mary (who Amara thought was his greatest need) and it was all about Sam.

Dean got to have his father back because the pearl thought it was his greatest wish, and it was... all about Sam. 

Yes, Andre Badd, we get it. 

I agree 100%. But...I believe I read somewhere (unfortunately I cannot quote) that JDM was quite aware of how the show has treated his character throughout the series, and indicated to Jensen that he didn't want to return to the show only to be confronted by his boys for all his "shortcomings". So, maybe that's why we didn't get any closure with Dean and John. It is my opinion that Glynn wrote the parts of the episode concerning the family and Badd wrote about his beloved teens (which I gather was the original concept for the entire episode until Jensen got JDM).  What I'm most sorry about is that J & J announced the last season before it began and gave that asshole the opportunity to ruin it as he has. 😞

[Scout Finch]

Me, when they went to get groceries and got out of the car:  "Lock the damn car doors this time!" Which they didn't.

ETA: Have been binge-watching for a couple of months and it was always nice to think about how many seasons I still had ahead. I just finished this one and will probably watch a few more today. However, I'm beginning to think I'm not going to be caught up by October 8th and may have to DVR it until I am. I think I read something about there being eight more episodes?

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Scout Finch

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, Scout Finch said:

Me, when they went to get groceries and got out of the car:  "Lock the damn car doors this time!" Which they didn't.

ETA: Have been binge-watching for a couple of months and it was always nice to think about how many seasons I still had ahead. I just finished this one and will probably watch a few more today. However, I'm beginning to think I'm not going to be caught up by October 8th and may have to DVR it until I am. I think I read something about there being eight more episodes?

 

Seven, actually. But yes, you'll want to watch the remembrance episode as well which will air on the last night as the series finale - Nov. 19.

[rhofmovalley]

Watching all the seasons and just finished watching this episode. One thing that bugged me...why did John ask Sam why he wasn't in Palo Alto? Couldn't he see that both of his sons were SIXTEEN YEARS older? Sam in particular looked nothing like 2003 Sam. 

[FlickChick]

5 hours ago, rhofmovalley said:

Watching all the seasons and just finished watching this episode. One thing that bugged me...why did John ask Sam why he wasn't in Palo Alto? Couldn't he see that both of his sons were SIXTEEN YEARS older? Sam in particular looked nothing like 2003 Sam. 

Shhh.... We're not supposed to notice those things! Also, why John now had practically shaved grey hair instead of how we saw him in the Pilot. Of course I agree with your assessment of the ridiculous question from John in the program - especially about Sam. His hair was (IMO) atrocious throughout most of the series. I really laughed at his S10 "Dutch Boy" paint can look, or was it Prince Valiant"? 😉

[Katy M]

On 4/11/2024 at 12:35 PM, rhofmovalley said:

Watching all the seasons and just finished watching this episode. One thing that bugged me...why did John ask Sam why he wasn't in Palo Alto? Couldn't he see that both of his sons were SIXTEEN YEARS older? Sam in particular looked nothing like 2003 Sam. 

That bugged me at first, but I did notice on a rewatch that he did at least ask Sam what happened to him.