S01.E10: There’s A World Where Your Dreams Came True

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Following a stay in Europe with her mother, Lizzie returns to Mystic Falls and comes face to face with someone who could make all her wishes come true – including making Hope Mikaelson disappear.

Promo:

Original air date: 2/7/19

[GaT]

I hate Lizzie. I am just tired of her being such a spoiled brat who gets her way by holding everyone hostage to her "episodes". I wish they would speed up the whole "one twin has to absorb the other" thing & have Josie kill Lizzie.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ugh, it was really hard for me to feel too bad for Lizzie because she had to take an airport shuttle home. BOO HOO. I get that it sucks when your dad doesn't respond to your texts, but having to take an airport shuttle is worth that level of hissy fit? What a spoiled brat. And I say that as someone whose parents forgot to pick me up more than once (and they didn't even have the excuse of having a monster chasing them).

I'm usually not a fan of alternate universe episodes, but I started to enjoy the premise when Lizzie hated all the different timelines, first because Hope still ended up at the Salvatore School and then later when she was the weird unpopular twin. She was clearly livid when Josie was the popular one getting all the attention at MFHS which was delectable to watch considering how she has been shown to treat Josie. But OF COURSE we had to reset to bratty Lizzie because she won't remember any of it.

Prime example of how self centered and shitty Lizzie is: repeatedly yelling, "GENIE!" no matter how many times she was told the correct way to pronounce it with a short I rather than a long E. Lizzie just doesn't give a fuck about other people. You know she would have an absolute shit fit if anyone pronounced her name Lezzie or Liezee or Leezee, but she can't be bothered to listen to the multiple times she was told how to pronounce a two syllable word.

[Lady Calypso]

So, I skipped the last few episodes and I'll watch them...eventually. But I did watch this episode.

I dunno, I do like Lizzie. At least, I like the potential of her redemption. Plus, I think Jenny Boyd is a solid actress. I thought she did well with her scenes here. I think this is the start of her turn to become less selfish. I think they basically said that she may not remember the journey consciously but she still went on it, so it should start shaping some alternate choices. 

I liked the alternate timelines. I'll admit my favourite one was the second one, with the fancy Mikaelson school and Hope/Josie flirting up a storm. Plus, that's the one with Josie being the popular girl and Lizzie being the other sister. Though that version had the most annoying version of Alaric so....

I did like how they twisted the revelation of the merge to be more of a curse on Lizzie. I thought Matt Davis and Jenny Boyd did well in the third timeline. 

[Chris24601]

I am always fascinated by alternate timelines and what they can do to inform the main narrative.

First, even if this was Lizzie’s episode, each of the timelines also showcased why Hope is so central to the narrative (because each one was essentially a Hope-shaped hole.

For example, no wonder Hope kinda gets away with so much; Her dad’s fortune and that version of a locator spell she brought along made the difference between a shell struggling along on what goodwill a mortal Damon and Elena could provide to the struggling side of the family and it being a thriving and well-funded campus.

It also looks to have confirmed theories about what happens if Hope is killed (because she’s always got vampire blood in her system)... she loses her magic and becomes a hybrid.

I do wonder about the specifics of how her life went without the school. Clearly there everyone in family was dead by the time Alaric found her and the Hollow wasn’t still inside her so my hunch is that after season four (when she would have gone to the school) she instead stayed with her mom in New Orleans until a variation of season five happened, Hayley died as before and the spell to get the Hollow out of her may have actually killed her (making her transition to a vamp-hybrid) and presumably there were messier ends for Freya and Rebecca as well.

The second timeline is interesting because from Hope’s dialogue, Klaus (and therefore Elijah) was still very much alive and expanding the school. Providing the school for Hope was actually making Klaus a much better man than he ever became in the actual timeline (note to show: THAT is how you do a plausible redemption; have them work for things bigger than themselves for an extended and ongoing period of time). Since Hope seemed non-traumatized in an almost over-the-top way I’m guessing Hayley was probably also still alive in that timeline... which ironically would have made it the fairytale version of “The Originals” where everyone got their happy ending.

The final timeline was interesting in that it showcased what a huge impact Hope had on her family and in making Klaus someone better than he was.

One other thing (from the first AU) also sparked with the Gemini merge thing. Unlike time it happened on TVD, Josie and Lizzie are literally the last members of the Gemini Coven. They’re also both siphoners so the solution is obvious; one of them should die and become a vamp-witch hybrid. Maybe they both have to do it to keep it from happening, but it seems like an obvious way around the problem that “wait until 21 years, 364 days then drink some vampire blood, take a “big blue shot” and wake up a vampire whose mother is probably the best person on the planet to teach you how to deal with it” should probably be the stated “what’s planned to happen” instead of the actual twin merge.

[ketose]

Lizzie is the trope character who is selfish and awful but in the end is brave and can be the hero. Even in this episode, she refused to accept the reset and thought of a way to go back without giving up the urn. Lizzie definitely has the potential to turn bad, but she also has some underlying issues, especially since she was required to use supernatural powers since she was a kid. Josie also has problems too, but her default setting is doormat, so fewer people notice.

So now, Lizzie is not only unstable, but will be driven mad with the unconscious need to kill her sister. I'm putting down my marker now that Landon will be the one to fix that at the end of the season.

Edited February 9, 2019 by ketose
pronouns

[Artsda]

This episode made me realize I didn't miss the twins at all.

I liked seeing Klaus's photo  on the wanted wall. 

[Terrafamilia]

I was fixated by Alaric's fake beard.

[Snow Fairy]

9 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

I was fixated by Alaric's fake beard.

And I with Lizzie's bad hair.

Looks so dry and weird

[ursula]

On 2/9/2019 at 10:27 AM, Chris24601 said:

For example, no wonder Hope kinda gets away with so much; Her dad’s fortune and that version of a locator spell she brought along made the difference between a shell struggling along on what goodwill a mortal Damon and Elena could provide to the struggling side of the family and it being a thriving and well-funded campus.

Only it makes no sense? Caroline is a vampire, Bonnie is a witch, Valerie Tulle is both and the twins were building Gemini Prison Worlds since they were four. I know Legacies wants to do its own thing but hinging the schools success on Klaus Mikaelson's money when Caroline alone could compel, say, a Silicon Valley billionaire to become the school's patron or the twins could just make a copy world where they can "shop" for money and materials is stretching belief.

On 2/9/2019 at 10:27 AM, Chris24601 said:

Clearly there everyone in family was dead by the time Alaric found her and the Hollow wasn’t still inside her so my hunch is that after season four (when she would have gone to the school) she instead stayed with her mom in New Orleans until a variation of season five happened, Hayley died as before and the spell to get the Hollow out of her may have actually killed her (making her transition to a vamp-hybrid) and presumably there were messier ends for Freya and Rebecca as well.

The Hollow taking over Hope would have been consistent, especially if it turns her against her family. But it was being in the school that led to Hayley's death - first by Hope siring her classmate for money to see Klaus after years of absence, then using the hybrid to kidnap Hayley, then being exploited by Curly Blond into blackmailing Hayley to bind her wolf side and then killing her. 

If they had gone to NOLA and met Hollow!Hope that would have made far more sense than what we saw.

And Hope comes from a fricking huge family. They'd have to go through 2 Original vampires (4 actually since in the AU Klaus and Elijah started alive) , 3 witches, whatever superpowers vamp Marcel is, a werewolf, an entire pack... Before she gets to be the Lost Lonely Orphan.

On 2/9/2019 at 1:47 AM, GaT said:

I hate Lizzie. I am just tired of her being such a spoiled brat who gets her way by holding everyone hostage to her "episodes". I wish they would speed up the whole "one twin has to absorb the other" thing & have Josie kill Lizzie.

I'm so upset with the way the show demonized mental illness.

On 2/9/2019 at 4:16 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

She was clearly livid when Josie was the popular one getting all the attention at MFHS which was delectable to watch considering how she has been shown to treat Josie.

But how has Lizzie treated Josie though? Being thoughtless is one thing but alternate-Josie was cruel and Lizzie has never been that to her sister. Dana made a frankly ableist joke that  made Josie laugh but during the football game, when Dana makes a nasty joke about Josie, Lizzie gets furious. MG even warns Penelope that hurting Josie is a surefire way to get Lizzie to hate anyone.

I always feel like if I'm watching a different show when it comes to Lizzie because besides the fact that she doesn't worship the ground that older, wealthier, more powerful Hope Mikaelson works on... What exactly is so horrible about her? She gets dumped on her birthday by a boy she genuinely liked. She loses an election she was a interested in  and  her sister's frankly psychopathic ex calls her an emotional vampire. The high school kids mock her for her mental illness and she has to rein herself in and bear it. Josie is supposed to be "overshadowed" by her but we've seen Josie stand up to Lizzie several times and it's clear that it's as much Josie's codependency as Lizzie's personality that makes Josie give in to her.

And if Lizzie is so fragile that she needs Josie's constant support then isn't the blame on Alaric for that? He has a disabled kid. That sucks but dem's the breaks. It's his job, not his other child's to look after that kid. And it makes the fact the he spends so much time and has this special bond with a girl her age not just irresponsible but also downright cruel but from all intents and purposes, Hope is his replacement-Lizzie: the strong, sane child he wishes he had from the start. 

(Sorry for the rant but while I enjoyed the episode - Pedro in X, sorry 😉 M-men gear got me off my sofa clapping! - the ableism of the episode was grating. Also while I loved Hope in the Originals, I think trying to make the entire world rise and fall on her existence is the equivalent of shoving her down our throats. And I will always be unsatisfied with the way Alaric is portrayed. It's one thing if they showed his behavior as flawed but clearly we're really supposed to think him above blame and Lizzie irrational and "crazy" 🙄 in all this.)

[Mikay]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

 I'm so upset with the way the show demonized mental illness.

Thank you for pointing this out. I've been a lurker on this board, but felt compelled to post because this episode really pushed my buttons with its portrayal of mental illness. As someone with bipolar disorder, I've felt nervous about Lizzie since the pilot. Mental illness on tv shows has always been a mixed bag, and this is doubly true for supernatural shows where fantastical powers overlap with mental instability. Characters will go "dark," which can mean anything from mood swings, to suffering from extreme paranoia, and then in a few episodes will be right as rain. But unfortunately for Plec and the writing team, there is no getting rid of bipolar disorder ever. You can medically treat it like many things, but this is not a perfect solution.  The "episodes," or the "crazy" as it has been called on this show is lifelong. 

I've been one of the few that has always liked Lizzie(I also liked season 1 Caroline): She is self-absorbed, deeply insecure, and as people with bipolar disorder can be emotionally unstable. She's made some mistakes for sure, but I find the extreme vitriol she gets on the show itself to be disconcerting. It's not that characters can't call Lizzie out for her selfishness or be annoyed with her for being shallow, but I feel like many of these insults actually bring in her mental illness as reasons why she's a horrible person and they are framed as in the right.  We've been invited to cheer on Penelope, Dana and now Josie as they take Lizzie to task even though they use ableist language to do so. I'd like to repeat, there is no cure for bipolar disorder. Lizzie will not be able to stop the "episodes" or stop being crazy.  

Should Josie be able to live her life without worrying that Lizzie will snap? Of course. I think Lizzie can and should work on her self-awareness and her self-loathing. It can be difficult sometimes to consider other people when you have bipolar disorder because internally you are cycling through different emotions and your thoughts can be irrational, but that is not an excuse not to try.  And yet, oddly, this is not really what alternate reality Josie said to Lizzie. It was some equivalent of "Dad and I have spent our entire lives coddling you because of your mental illness and I'm just not going to do it anymore." Why Julie Plec, why?  

Like you ursula, I think the person that comes off the worst for me is actually Alaric. As the adult and parent, he should realize that making Josie carry the burden of her sister's caretaker is deeply unfair. Lizzie is a mentally ill teenager, what's his excuse?  I think we are supposed to view Alaric relationship with Hope as a prime source of Hope's stability. She's alone, powerful and carrying this dark legacy. It makes sense that she'd strongly need an ally. Where it becomes eyebrow raising is that both Lizzie and Josie also have a horrible legacy looming, and Lizzie's instability makes the situation even more dire as we saw in one of the alternate reality episodes where she murdered Josie because of extreme paranoia.  Alaric has seemed oddly chill about this potential future, even though he must know it's a possibility. 

Whew. Anyway, I actually liked this episode a lot. I loved the alternate world scenarios. I liked the scenes we got between Alaric and Lizzie in the last reality. Really good work by the actors.  I liked that Lizzie found a loophole and even as broken as she is would not doom the entire world for her own gain. I love how the relationship between Josie and Lizzie emerged as the beating heart of the episode. They have one of my favorite relationships. I also like that we saw Hope soften a bit toward Lizzie at the end and I hope that Lizzie also overcome her jealousy and be nice to Hope. 

It's interesting, I tend to find episodes with the twins more emotionally satisfying than the ones with Hope as the star. A big part of this might be that Hope has to be on this show without a lot of the cast from the Originals which inform her character. I like Landon well enough, but that dynamic hasn't been as compelling for me as as the twins' strained relationship with their father or with each other. 

[Grace19]

I don't get the Lizzie hate, she's the most interesting character and the actress is better than the rest of the other actors. Lizzie has the potential to go on the most satisfying journey on the show, I can't wait to see how she overcomes people expectations of her and how she manages her disability. I find Josie boring, I dislike her girlfriend (forgot her name), I like hope, MG and Landon. I love Lizzie and Raphael. 

I agree with the poster that said he/she is shocked to see three black guys on a cw show, I am too. Lol

[Lady Calypso]

I get why Lizzie may be frustrating to watch....if it wasn't made clear that her attitude has a lot to do with her psychotic ancestors. Sure, Lizzie needs to work on herself in terms of loving herself and becoming less self-absorbed, but her "episodes", as Alaric keeps calling them, aren't fully in her control. Sure, she takes steps to manage her mental illness, as Lizzie said in this episode (she mentioned Caroline being the one to help her moreso than Alaric or Josie, which is interesting) but they've made it clear that she'll never be a normal witch, or even a normal human being. Sure, they've talked about Lizzie needing more attention than Josie or whatever, but that's because Josie either can control her own mental illness better or she has different symptoms that aren't as noticeable or dangerous. Or she simply didn't get the brunt of their ancestors. 

Lizzie may be more dangerous in terms of losing control and having her "episodes" but she isn't as selfish as the show sometimes portrays her to be. Episode 2 or 3 had her saving Pedro and trapping the gargoyle in the school before getting attacked. She's shown to care a lot about Josie. And now, she doesn't really remember what she might eventually do to Josie later on (although I'm convinced, after this journey she went on, she'll be more likely to sacrifice herself, rather than kill Josie again, since Alt Reality #3 Lizzie had a different experience than our Lizzie). 

I don't mind Josie but I find her incredibly boring compared to Lizzie. Plus, I understand Lizzie's hatred toward Hope; they made it clear why Lizzie wasn't wrong in being worried after Alt Reality #1. Really, Alaric didn't find his purpose before Hope? That's not a very good lesson to tell. 

Again, I understand why Lizzie might not be well liked because her behaviour and personality can be grating. I'm just saying why I like Lizzie and why I sympathize with her, even if she CAN get on my nerves too (I think I've called out a couple of times where I didn't agree with Lizzie's choices). 

[ursula]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Really, Alaric didn't find his purpose before Hope? That's not a very good lesson to tell. 

I figured it out from looking at this tumblr gifset:

http://watcherspet.tumblr.com/post/182611938283

They are trying to make Alaric Giles to Hope's Buffy. The problem is that Giles didn't already have 2 Slayer twins of his own, including one with a tendency to go 'Faith' on him. It makes sense to see Giles devote himself to Buffy - she's literally his job. With Alaric, it just looks hella irresponsible with slightly creepy undertones of upgrading/replacing a "defective" daughter with a girl needing a father figure.

[Diapason Untuned]

21 hours ago, Mikay said:

Like you ursula, I think the person that comes off the worst for me is actually Alaric. As the adult and parent, he should realize that making Josie carry the burden of her sister's caretaker is deeply unfair. Lizzie is a mentally ill teenager, what's his excuse?  I think we are supposed to view Alaric relationship with Hope as a prime source of Hope's stability. She's alone, powerful and carrying this dark legacy. It makes sense that she'd strongly need an ally.

I agree.

The problem with Alaric is that he can't balance raising 3 children (because they're basically making Hope his other daughter) properly. He pours all his attention and care into the child with the most pressing problems while ignoring the others. That might not be so bad if Alaric didn't also give the problem child all his respect too. In Alt Universe 1, no Hope meant that Alaric focused entirely on his daughters and he seeemed to respect them a lot more than he did in the prime universe.

Quote

Where it becomes eyebrow raising is that both Lizzie and Josie also have a horrible legacy looming, and Lizzie's instability makes the situation even more dire as we saw in one of the alternate reality episodes where she murdered Josie because of extreme paranoia.  Alaric has seemed oddly chill about this potential future, even though he must know it's a possibility. 

This I don't agree with.

Alaric is shown to be very worried about the Merge, he just doesn't put in on a priority because it's years away.

Quote

I also like that we saw Hope soften a bit toward Lizzie at the end and I hope that Lizzie also overcome her jealousy and be nice to Hope. 

Hope and Lizzie's relationship is a little odd. Hope doesn't hesitate to slag her off, even to her own father or newbie like Raf. Yet, when it comes to their personal interactions , she seems willing to cut her more slack. Is it guilt on Hope's part or something?

21 hours ago, Mikay said:

Like you ursula, I think the person that comes off the worst for me is actually Alaric. As the adult and parent, he should realize that making Josie carry the burden of her sister's caretaker is deeply unfair. Lizzie is a mentally ill teenager, what's his excuse?  I think we are supposed to view Alaric relationship with Hope as a prime source of Hope's stability. She's alone, powerful and carrying this dark legacy. It makes sense that she'd strongly need an ally.

I agree.

The problem with Alaric is that he can't balance raising 3 children (because they're basically making Hope his other daughter) properly. He pours all his attention and care into the child with the most pressing problems while ignoring the others. That might not be so bad if Alaric didn't also give the problem child all his respect too. In Alt Universe 1, no Hope meant that Alaric focused entirely on his daughters and he seeemed to respect them a lot more than he did in the prime universe.

Quote

Where it becomes eyebrow raising is that both Lizzie and Josie also have a horrible legacy looming, and Lizzie's instability makes the situation even more dire as we saw in one of the alternate reality episodes where she murdered Josie because of extreme paranoia.  Alaric has seemed oddly chill about this potential future, even though he must know it's a possibility. 

This I don't agree with.

Alaric is shown to be very worried about the Merge, he just doesn't put in on a priority because it's years away.

Quote

I also like that we saw Hope soften a bit toward Lizzie at the end and I hope that Lizzie also overcome her jealousy and be nice to Hope. 

Hope and Lizzie's relationship is a little odd. Hope doesn't hesitate to slag her off, even to her own father or newbie like Raf. Yet, when it comes to their personal interactions , she seems willing to cut her more slack. Is it guilt on Hope's part or something?

[ketose]

9 hours ago, ursula said:

I figured it out from looking at this tumblr gifset:

http://watcherspet.tumblr.com/post/182611938283

They are trying to make Alaric Giles to Hope's Buffy. The problem is that Giles didn't already have 2 Slayer twins of his own, including one with a tendency to go 'Faith' on him. It makes sense to see Giles devote himself to Buffy - she's literally his job. With Alaric, it just looks hella irresponsible with slightly creepy undertones of upgrading/replacing a "defective" daughter with a girl needing a father figure.

This show is set maybe a year after the Originals series finale? It seems like Hope wasn't as involved with Alaric's adventures until she got back from becoming an orphan, which means Lizzie and Josie had 13 years of Daddy / daughter time before that. I assume the family dynamic is new, considering the crazy Malivore stuff and Caroline being MIA.

[GaT]

On 2/10/2019 at 7:15 PM, ursula said:

I'm so upset with the way the show demonized mental illness.

On 2/10/2019 at 9:58 PM, Mikay said:

Thank you for pointing this out. I've been a lurker on this board, but felt compelled to post because this episode really pushed my buttons with its portrayal of mental illness. 

I'm not sure why you think that Lizzie is mentally ill in some way. I never felt that they were trying to portray her as having any kind of mental illness at all, so I'm wondering what I've missed. I think they're trying to portray her as an immature, spoiled brat who throws temper tantrums like a two year old so that they can show her having "growth" at some point. 

[ursula]

3 hours ago, GaT said:

I never felt that they were trying to portray her as having any kind of mental illness at all, so I'm wondering what I've missed. 

It's been there since the Pilot. Among other things, she's repeatedly outted on her medication by Dana. Not all her behavior is about her mental illness, of course, but those aren't temper tantrums, those are breakdowns. 

People with mental illness aren't responsible for their emotional instability any more than people who are blind are responsible for not seeing. Lizzie is doing her part by taking her medication faithfully and doing the calming exercises she's instructed to. e.g. how in this episode, after her outburst in her father's office, she goes to her room and does breathing exercises in front of the mirror. Alaric's relationship with Hope is a trigger. And for all this episode tried to sell the "It's A Wonderful Life With Hope" to everyone, Hope's presence in the school isn't Lizzie's problem - it's Hope's exclusive relationship with her father. Which Alaric can control. If he wants to have a Special bond with Hope, that's his problem: but he shouldn't make his disabled child feel like crap because of it.

I mean for goodness sake, why Alaric can't do physical training with his daughters and Hope? And if he literally can't - because time, human endurance - then he needs to prioritize. 

It's called Parenting. 

Honestly, thinking about this is just making me disgusted all over again. Lizzie didn't ask to be born with mental illness to a coven that exacerbates mental illness. She didn't ask to be born at all. Jo and Alaric made that choice. Alaric and Caroline made it again when they did everything possible to practically resurrect her. Writing Alaric as his child's martyr is disgusting and irresponsible to the extreme. 

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, GaT said:

I'm not sure why you think that Lizzie is mentally ill in some way. I never felt that they were trying to portray her as having any kind of mental illness at all, so I'm wondering what I've missed. I think they're trying to portray her as an immature, spoiled brat who throws temper tantrums like a two year old so that they can show her having "growth" at some point. 

Part of the reason Alaric keeps calling Lizzie's temper tantrums as "episodes" is because of the psychoticness of the Gemini coven (mostly Kai Parker, their biological uncle) and how Alaric has had a conversation with Lizzie about it in the pilot and in this episode. Lizzie's shown that she doesn't want to keep freaking out the way that she does. Sure, part of her behaviour is due to her being immature and narcissistic, but her actual temper tantrums are episodes due to what is wrong with her internally and mentally. 

[GaT]

7 hours ago, ursula said:

It's been there since the Pilot. Among other things, she's repeatedly outted on her medication by Dana. 

And that's the part I missed, I don't remember ever hearing anything about medication, thanks

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Part of the reason Alaric keeps calling Lizzie's temper tantrums as "episodes" is because of the psychoticness of the Gemini coven (mostly Kai Parker, their biological uncle) and how Alaric has had a conversation with Lizzie about it in the pilot and in this episode. Lizzie's shown that she doesn't want to keep freaking out the way that she does. Sure, part of her behaviour is due to her being immature and narcissistic, but her actual temper tantrums are episodes due to what is wrong with her internally and mentally. 

Oh yeah, I forgot about Kai, I also don't remember conversations about him.  I may not be paying as much attention to this show as I thought. LOL

[Minneapple]

Alaric needs to be a father. He trains with Hope and takes road trips with her to help save her boyfriend but he can't be bothered to pick up his own kids. He knows his girls, particularly Lizzie, have insecurity issues because he pays more attention to Hope than he does to them, but he continues to do it anyway.

He's a crappy dad. 

[ketose]

5 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Alaric needs to be a father. He trains with Hope and takes road trips with her to help save her boyfriend but he can't be bothered to pick up his own kids. He knows his girls, particularly Lizzie, have insecurity issues because he pays more attention to Hope than he does to them, but he continues to do it anyway.

He's a crappy dad. 

Maybe, but I think there are a few mitigating factors. One is that Caroline was the primary parent a lot of the time and that allowed Alaric to also be a headmaster. Second is that Lizzie probably puts too much emphasis on her Dad not being there / being too involved with Hope because he's the one who's there to lash at and not Caroline. Finally, there a lot of shit going down at the moment. Hope, cautionary tale though she is, can be an asset in this situation. Lizzie and Josie should be working on their unique siphon skills, not entry level staff fighting.

[ursula]

38 minutes ago, ketose said:

Lizzie and Josie should be working on their unique siphon skills, not entry level staff fighting.

This actually makes Alaric worse. Hope has the physical advantages of being a vampire-werewolf-hybrid. Without any martial skills, she can win any battle by punching her way through things, biting her way through things, or blasting her way through things.

The twins are siphons. Unless there's a handy source of magic nearby, they're are as powerless as ordinary human girls. I mean, for goodness's sake, Alaric taught Elena to defend herself for this very reason. Now he deliberately chooses to keep his twins vulnerable?

No matter how you slice it, he just comes out as a horrible parent and possibly exploitative teacher.

6 hours ago, Minneapple said:

He trains with Hope and takes road trips with her to help save her boyfriend but he can't be bothered to pick up his own kids.

The funny thing is that I think we're supposed to take Lizzie's reaction over the smelly cab as irrational/petty. But like you said - he went on a road trip with Hope. Spent at least one night away from campus. Like ... 🤦‍♀️

[ketose]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

This actually makes Alaric worse. Hope has the physical advantages of being a vampire-werewolf-hybrid. Without any martial skills, she can win any battle by punching her way through things, biting her way through things, or blasting her way through things.

The twins are siphons. Unless there's a handy source of magic nearby, they're are as powerless as ordinary human girls. I mean, for goodness's sake, Alaric taught Elena to defend herself for this very reason. Now he deliberately chooses to keep his twins vulnerable?

No matter how you slice it, he just comes out as a horrible parent and possibly exploitative teacher.

The funny thing is that I think we're supposed to take Lizzie's reaction over the smelly cab as irrational/petty. But like you said - he went on a road trip with Hope. Spent at least one night away from campus. Like ... 🤦‍♀️

But Elena wasn't a siphon. Exactly what danger would the girls face that wasn't supernatural? 

[ursula]

39 minutes ago, ketose said:

But Elena wasn't a siphon. Exactly what danger would the girls face that wasn't supernatural? 

I don't follow?

[ursula]

On 2/13/2019 at 8:58 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Lizzie's shown that she doesn't want to keep freaking out the way that she does. Sure, part of her behaviour is due to her being immature and narcissistic, but her actual temper tantrums are episodes due to what is wrong with her internally and mentally. 

And Lizzie actually does a great job of managing herself. I already mentioned how she goes to her room and practises deep breathing exercises to calm down after arriving at the school and seeing that her father forgot them at the airport because of Hope. When Penelope verbally attacks her after the elections and tells her that she's parasiting on Josie, Lizzie takes out her anger on... the punching bag. She's working out there when Raf shows up and they hook up --- another healthy outlet. 😜 When she's attacked by a gargoyle, she doesn't run away, she gets Pedro to safety, and casts a spell to seal the gargoyle in the school and keep Mystic Falls - the same Mystic Falls that houses bullies like Dana - safe. She's not as much selfish as she's selfabsorbed. 

TL DR... Lizzie is a far better person (and character) than she's given credit for. And Alaric is the world's worst dad. 

[Gwen-Stacys]

I agree with all the Lizzie defenders. There is a very distinct difference between a person (character) being selfish and self-ish ---with Lizzie obviously being the latter. Her self-absorption could, honestly, be blamed on her illness and her always having to be aware of how or what she's feeling so that she can take self-care steps.

I think people's hatred/dislike of Lizzie as a character really sheds light on how or why people with metal illnesses slip through the cracks in real life. They can be a lot to deal with, and most people don't have the want or patience to deal with them. Outside of Hope and Raf, Lizzie is definitely my favorite character on this show. And I love that her bio mom Jo saw and made sure to point out just how good-hearted Lizzie is and has the potential to be because no one else will. Teens, with mental illness or not, often need validation from people outside of themselves just know that they're doing something right.

[tennisgurl]

This week, Lizzie discovers the Darkest Timeline...oh, not the one with the government hunting down supernatural people where half the cast is dead or dying and we have apparently wandered into the ARGUS future from Legends of Tomorrow...the timeline where Josie and Hope might have a thing going on! Now THAT is Lizzie's own personal hell dimension!

Glad that I finally got caught up on this show, just in time for the required Alternate Universe episode! Lizzie can be self centered and bratty, but she IS a teenager, and I still like her, and think she is a a fundamentally good person. A lot of her brattiness seems to be based around her nervousness about her mental health, and her "episodes", whatever those are. I dont really have a favorite between Josie and Lizzie, I like them both, just in different ways. I do think that Lizzie can take her sister for granite, but she is always supportive and protective of her, and is certainly not deliberately mean to her, like AU Mean Girl Josie was. I think she has a lot of growing up to do. 

So now we see why Hope is such a teachers pet, she is totally the schools meal ticket! 

Edited February 20, 2019 by tennisgurl

[beeemkcl]

* This episode is the first episode of Smallville and the TVD/TO/L ‘verse that is better than its Buffyverse counterpart. This episode is much better than “The Wish” (BtVS 3.09).

Responses to the thread:

* A 3-hour airport shuttle ride ‘home’, as what Lizzie Saltzman described would be very unpleasant. There’s nothing wrong with Lizzie’s reaction. Even if Alaric couldn’t personally ‘pick her up’, he could have sent someone to get his children.

* Given the Jinni was a ‘genie’, I don’t see how Lizzie calling the Jinni a ‘genie’ is bad.

* The point of being a tribrid I’ve always reasoned that simply Hope Mikaelson at some point will become immortal; otherwise, she’s simply a hybrid who used to be a witch. She’d be another Hayley Marshall who knows how to do spells but cannot do them. She’d be less special than Kol Mikaelson.

The Jinni simply ‘made up’ realities. Those realities weren’t actually ‘what would actually happen’.

* I didn’t watch TVD after TVD S3. Did the Salvatores suddenly become broke after TVD S3? I don’t know why the Salvatore school wouldn’t have funding.

[TaylorBruh25]

Yeeeeeaaaaahhhh, not going to agree with Alaric being a terrible parent/poor Lizzie narrative. Mental illness in Lizzie is obviously there but that responsibility does not fall on Josie, Hope, or anyone else in the school and Alaric is doing his part in trying to understand and help her. 

  But what I most disagree with in this thread is Hope and Alaric’s obvious relationship being this detriment to Lizzie’s mental state and Josie and hers well being. 

  Lizzie’s insecurity about Hope is natural human jealousy. Even if it triggers more heightened emotions it’s a terrible stance to set if Alaric pushes Hope way to the side in favor of Lizzie’s feelings, it’s unjustified since Hope has done them no harm. What if Josie triggered Lizzie’s episodes? Would Alaric have to stray from her? Hope has been through more in  her last 3 years then Lizzie’s faced at all yet. I’m not even a big fan of Hope in this show but it is crazy to me that Alaric finding himself as a guardian to Hope like he did Elena is insane to me. I’m not saying Lizzie is terrible in her own right but the whole “Alaric needs to be parent and watch for his REAL daughters is bs since he runs a live in school of highly powerful probably dysfunctional kids. 

[ursula]

On 5/29/2019 at 10:13 AM, TaylorBruh25 said:

“Alaric needs to be parent and watch for his REAL daughters is bs since he runs a live in school of highly powerful probably dysfunctional kids. 

Fair enough but the only kid he has a particular relationship is with Hope.

On 5/29/2019 at 10:13 AM, TaylorBruh25 said:

Alaric finding himself as a guardian to Hope like he did Elena is insane to me.

Not like Elena. Alaric had to step up and parent Elena after Jenna died. Hope has a huge extended family - 3 blood aunts and uncles, 3 by marriage, an adopted brother, an honorary uncle... The two characters are nothing alike. 

Alaric's relationship with Hope looks less like him stepping in to parent an orphan and more like him trying to relive his "glory days" through her.

On 5/29/2019 at 10:13 AM, TaylorBruh25 said:

Even if it triggers more heightened emotions

Lizzie didn't choose to be born with mental illness. It's Alaric's responsibility to parent her. Yes, it's not "fair" but that's life. 

[DeafAngelboy23]

I’ve been watching Legacies for the past two weeks on & off on Netflix. I tried to wait as long as possible to give this show a fair chance to digest through for myself. I think this episode gave me the chance to think about things that I remembered back in the days. 

The premise of this episode reminded me a lot about what if scenarios such as one of the finest Star Trek: TNG episodes, “Tapestry” & why did I think of it? 

The quote by Captain Picard, “There are many parts of my youth that I'm not proud of. There were loose threads, untidy parts of me that I would like to remove. But when I pulled on one of those threads it unraveled the tapestry of my life.” 

Ah the tapestry of her life indeed. 

Selfishness, passionate, lover, hater & many more... 

[Happywatcher]

Just watched. Waited until I knew there was a second season to start watching. 

Lizzie just went from being someone struggling with a mental illness to being an evil person who made everyone else's life worse mostly for amusement.  That isn't fun or interesting, it is annoying at best, and mostly bad TV.

If they want to make her a villain, then do a story arc where everyone figures out she crossed the evil line, not a bottle show.