S01.E03: Tearin' up My Heart

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, Jacks-Son said:

Those of you wondering if Liz had the power to resist Izzy's Mind warp/MindWipe, and if so,  where did she get that power.  perhaps Liz' alien powers are manifesting early.  Remember in OG,  Liz developed the power to create blasts of force which she used to bounce Tess off the walls and blew up the liquor hiding place in Liz' boarding school incident. 

1)  Liz didn't resist much of anything - Isabel can't mindcontrol - she can only suggest.  And it wasn't Liz resisting that stopped her, it was Liz's love for Max that Isabel felt that stopped Isabel.  She said she didn't have the heart to do it.

2)  That plot of Liz developing powers is from the old show not the books (in the books Liz doesn't develop powers).  Anything from the old show that's not in the books CANNOT be used because they don't have the rights to the old show.  Just the books that the old show was based on.  There is no Tess.  There is no Royal 4.  There is no Nacedo.  No Khivar.  No Antar.  None of that can be used because it was for the old show and didn't come from the books.  This show only has the rights to the books.

[Jacks-Son]

12 hours ago, Whimsy said:

Especially if that means no iteration of Tess, even with a different name

No Tess, no baby.  Was Tess and Max's baby an OGRoswell fiction also?

 

Afterthought, sorry Whimsy, I didn't see your post before I posted mine.  So, no Tess, no baby?  Damn, at this rate, I might as well take this as a completely new take, since I didn't read any of the books.  That will be hard but it will help me deal with the lack of Michael/Maria/SpaceBoy fun.  Michael and Maria's relationship was the other half of the fun of Roswell.  Michael/Alex will be difficult to accept because in my mind, I see Brendan Fehr and Colin Hanks romantically together and my mind screams NOOOOO!!!!!!  I'm, already struggling with Michael "Tyler Lockwood" Trevino as Kyle.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Jacks-Son

[phoenics]

Here is the constellation from the show:  

 

And here is Ophiuchus:

 

There is also that 3-pronged symbol to from the credits during the show:

Edited January 31, 2019 by phoenics

[phoenics]

27 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Damn, at this rate, I might as well take this as a completely new take, since I didn't read any of the books.

That's exactly how you should take it - I think of this show as a future-fan-fiction of the books.  The other show's plots that weren't in the books aren't relevant for the new show.  They've said they'll do easter eggs as treats for us fans but nothing plot related, since they don't have the rights. 

Maybe just read the first Roswell High book?  It's short and cheap on Amazon Kindle (and there's a Kindle app).

[shapeshifter]

44 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Here is the constellation from the show:  

 

And here is Ophiuchus:

 

There is also that 3-pronged symbol to from the credits during the show:

Oooh. I totally missed those images as "Ophiuchus" from this episode.
Part of me is now too old for clue searching, but part of me is like 12, because I am now imagining OG Alex or OG Michael pronouncing it with the F-word in the middle, LOL, and Max or Liz or Isobel rolling their eyes.
Okay. I'm done. *stifled chuckle*
But, seriously(?), those symbols do not appear in any of the Google image search results for ophiuchus (yet).

So they must be made up for the show, right?
And likely each represents one of the 3 aliens, Michael, Max, and Isobel, right?
Or it's some kind of fidget spinner.

[Jacks-Son]

@shapeshifter LOL, seems like your 20 years older fan is having just as much fun as the younger shapeshifter fan. Upthread you stated that if you were still under the spell of TV Obsession, you would do the very things you are doing now.  Perhaps, like Liz, you have been rejuvenated by a new Roswell series.  :-)

[Cristofle]

That symbol is also tattooed on Max's back, right?

While in general Max's melodramatic reaction to Liz is somewhat more concerning from a 28 year old than it was from a 16 year old, I feel like I can't really fault him for being so devastated and having such a visceral reaction to Liz's accusation. I'm not blaming Liz from her POV, but obviously Max did not kill Rosa because this is Roswell and it's Max, so from his POV, this is about a thousand times worse than his worst nightmare of how a human would react to his secret. Also it's the human he appears to care most about AND he let her experiment on him. And now it's hitting him that she did it while thinking he's an alien monster murderer. Max didn't react nearly so poorly when she claimed she wasn't that into him - he had the fairly average reaction of being hurt and hooking up with someone else on the fly. I don't think he's so unhinged because she doesn't love him - it's more that her thinking he's an actual murderer must truly be worse than his worst nightmare coming to life, and from his frantic calls to not only Isabel but Michael, he must be fully aware of how much danger he's put everyone in if she believes he's a murderer. 

I'm warming up to Michael as of this episode, but I'm having a hard time with how divided Max and Isabel and Michael seem to be, especially Max and Michael. I need more background on that divide. 

As an old school OLTL fan who very much never warmed up to Trevor St. John's Todd/Frodd, I am very much believing him as an evil, creepy supervillain who is also apparently deeply racist, heh. I feel like he's stepping into the role that the books gave Sheriff Valenti (who was nowhere near as layered and warm as he became on the show IIRC - I haven't read the books in probably 15 years or more). 

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Cristofle said:

While in general Max's melodramatic reaction to Liz is somewhat more concerning from a 28 year old than it was from a 16 year old, I feel like I can't really fault him for being so devastated and having such a visceral reaction to Liz's accusation. I'm not blaming Liz from her POV, but obviously Max did not kill Rosa because this is Roswell and it's Max, so from his POV, this is about a thousand times worse than his worst nightmare of how a human would react to his secret. Also it's the human he appears to care most about AND he let her experiment on him. And now it's hitting him that she did it while thinking he's an alien monster murderer. Max didn't react nearly so poorly when she claimed she wasn't that into him - he had the fairly average reaction of being hurt and hooking up with someone else on the fly. I don't think he's so unhinged because she doesn't love him - it's more that her thinking he's an actual murderer must truly be worse than his worst nightmare coming to life, and from his frantic calls to not only Isabel but Michael, he must be fully aware of how much danger he's put everyone in if she believes he's a murderer. 

I thought he was calling Michael and Isobel for help because he knew his powers were about to explode, but this makes more sense, and there unavailability may have increased his powers' explosiveness.
BTW, @Cristofle, I hope you are now a defense attorney, a marriage counselor, at least a playground referee, or in some situation where your insightfulness and communication skills are being are not being wasted. 

 

4 hours ago, Cristofle said:

That symbol is also tattooed on Max's back, right?

If the symbol is tattooed on Max: Did he choose to have it done or was it done to him, and, if so, how?

 

12 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

@shapeshifter LOL, seems like your 20 years older fan is having just as much fun as the younger shapeshifter fan. Upthread you stated that if you were still under the spell of TV Obsession, you would do the very things you are doing now.  Perhaps, like Liz, you have been rejuvenated by a new Roswell series.  :-)

Maybe a little bit. Heh. But I'm not rewatching the episodes right after they air, so I miss stuff. But I have all y'all whippersnappers/grasshoppers to catch the stuff I miss.

Edited January 31, 2019 by shapeshifter

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, Cristofle said:

As an old school OLTL fan who very much never warmed up to Trevor St. John's Todd/Frodd, I am very much believing him as an evil, creepy supervillain who is also apparently deeply racist, heh.

This. I personally can't see anything but his version of Todd every time he's on screen lol. It's sort of comforting and annoying at the same time.

I really love this dumb show. Please don't let it turn boring or rage-inducing bad!

I still like Max and Max/Liz more than I did on the original show, but during Max's 'I've loved you my whole lie!!' breakdown I was just like 'run, Liz, run!' That was a tad creepy.

I still can't really get fully into Michael/Alex. I think it's more of an actor thing though. They just don't really have that much chem imo, which I think is partly because Tyler Blackburn doesn't seem that into it to me. But that might be a choice because Alex is all tightly wound or whatever.

I liked Isobel and the actress playing her much more in this ep. The actress was like 10 times better than she has been. I didn't even focus solely on her mole the whole time! Her husband is definitely gonna save her/the aliens and die by the end of the season though, right? Also, I too was getting some possible Isobel/Rosa romantic vibes in this ep. Did we know they were friends? I am both annoyed and intrigued by how we're getting little snippets of the past relationships of this group.

I'm already over Max's partner. She's just a little too something for me. I liked her braid though.

Still needs more Maria.

Edited January 31, 2019 by peachmangosteen

[shapeshifter]

28 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I'm already over Max's partner. She's just a little too something for me. I liked her braid though.

The actress who plays Max's partner (Riley Voelkel) is my favorite. I wish they had cast her in a different role, but maybe they will retool her part once they realize her acting chops like they did with Sheriff Valenti in the OG show. Even though she's into the friends/coworkers-with-benefits with Max (which is so not PC anyway), so far she hasn't acted clingy or psycho or anything, so I could see her moving on from Max (maybe she hooks up with Kyle just to prove to viewers that she's not obsessed with Max) and then joining the I-Know-An-Alien Club and being a helpful ally. 

[phoenics]

11 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Oooh. I totally missed those images as "Ophiuchus" from this episode.
Part of me is now too old for clue searching, but part of me is like 12, because I am now imagining OG Alex or OG Michael pronouncing it with the F-word in the middle, LOL, and Max or Liz or Isobel rolling their eyes.
Okay. I'm done. *stifled chuckle*
But, seriously(?), those symbols do not appear in any of the Google image search results for ophiuchus (yet).

So they must be made up for the show, right?
And likely each represents one of the 3 aliens, Michael, Max, and Isobel, right?
Or it's some kind of fidget spinner.

Only the middle picture I posted is Ophiuchus.  The other two are symbols that show up on the Roswell, NM logo on the show and in videos promoting Roswell, NM.  I'm trying to see if either of the symbols the show is using match up to the dot pattern (ignoring the lines) on the Ophiuchus constellation I found on google.

Not sure yet if either of them do.  The last symbol looks more like a crop circle than a constellation, while the first is definitely some kind of constellation.  But I think the first one matches up really well if you ignore the lines on both images!

Wow - I've still got a little of the ole Roswellian detective left in me, lol.  

Edited January 31, 2019 by phoenics

[Cristofle]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

BTW, @Cristofle, I hope you are now a defense attorney, a marriage counselor, at least a playground referee, or in some situation where your insightfulness and communication skills are being wasted. 

I am a librarian, so really, I have been asked to play all these roles at various points.

I do feel bad for Max's partner. I mean, anyone who gets between Max and Liz in any Roswell iteration is roadkill, but he is not treating that woman well, lol. In true soap opera fashion, watch her be evil.

Quote

This. I personally can't see anything but his version of Todd every time he's on screen lol. It's sort of comforting and annoying at the same time.

I wonder if he's going to start doing that weird thing where he talks to the imaginary people in the corner? Such a strange tick. I don't think I could handle him as a good guy and I don't see him becoming Dad-ified like Valenti did on OG Roswell, but I can handle him as a super creepy villain.

[phoenics]

15 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

 

So they must be made up for the show, right?
And likely each represents one of the 3 aliens, Michael, Max, and Isobel, right?
Or it's some kind of fidget spinner.

Oooh I like that theory - that each end represents one of the 3 of them!  This is getting good!

[KittenPokerCheater]

It does look like a fidget.  I'm never going to be able to unsee it now.  Hee!  

My new grassy knoll is that maybe Isabel mindwiped Max ten years ago after something happened around the time of Rosa's death.  Obviously it involved Liz.  Now she's back and the mindwipe has started to wear off. 

If Michael/Alex doesn't work out, I hope they give Michael/Maria a try, because I can only imagine the comedy gold that would come from a psychic and an angry scientific genius alien.

But I'm a bit confused Michael/Alex.  The whole "you always walk away" and "you always give me a reason."  They haven't seen each other in a decade.  And, thus far, it doesn't seem like the two ever did anything prior to that kiss senior year.  Did they have a relationship back then, or has it not been established?

[Regalbegal]

23 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

As far as chemistry, I think the actors who play Liz and Max have exhibited plenty of chemistry or at least they have that look of love in their eyes when they see each other.

Reading the comments on this episode thus far, it struck me how fine the line is between "romantic" and "stalker" in some of these fictional melodramas, exemplified by Max's behavior in this episode.  I tend to fall on the romance side of his interactions with Liz, but I definitely understand the "run, girl!" reaction to things like "I've been thinking for 10 years about that one time you touched my lip" as well.  To their credit, I think the writers and actors get this and are playing with it a bit. 

5 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Quote

This. I personally can't see anything but his version of Todd every time he's on screen lol. It's sort of comforting and annoying at the same time.

I wonder if he's going to start doing that weird thing where he talks to the imaginary people in the corner? Such a strange tick. I don't think I could handle him as a good guy and I don't see him becoming Dad-ified like Valenti did on OG Roswell, but I can handle him as a super creepy villain.

Ah, the batshit days of the last few Frodd/Todd months of OLTL.  Of all the old OLTL cast, I can't say Trevor St John is one I anticipated seeing in a CW melodrama.  Good on him, though, I think he fits the role well.  

[phoenics]

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

 

If the symbol is tattooed on Max: Did he choose to have it done or was it done to him, and, if so, how?

 

I didn't see anything on his back - but he has a TX Longhorn tattoed on his arm.

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

It does look like a fidget.  I'm never going to be able to unsee it now.  Hee!  

My new grassy knoll is that maybe Isabel mindwiped Max ten years ago after something happened around the time of Rosa's death.  Obviously it involved Liz.  Now she's back and the mindwipe has started to wear off. 

If Michael/Alex doesn't work out, I hope they give Michael/Maria a try, because I can only imagine the comedy gold that would come from a psychic and an angry scientific genius alien.

But I'm a bit confused Michael/Alex.  The whole "you always walk away" and "you always give me a reason."  They haven't seen each other in a decade.  And, thus far, it doesn't seem like the two ever did anything prior to that kiss senior year.  Did they have a relationship back then, or has it not been established?

Wow the M/L theory sounds super plausible.  I keep thinking that something happened years ago - maybe without Max's knowledge concerning Liz.  Isabel mindwiped her, but does Max know?  Did Isabel mindwipe Rosa too?  What's up with Isabel seeing Rosa in Liz's mind?

I too am still hoping they do Michael/Maria.  They'd be hilarious. Psychic Genius.  Bam. New ship name.

Yeah - I keep wondering if there was more to everyone.  M/L had a full relationship and then got mindwiped.  Same with Michael/Alex?  How much happened in 2 freakin weeks?

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Regalbegal said:

Reading the comments on this episode thus far, it struck me how fine the line is between "romantic" and "stalker" in some of these fictional melodramas, exemplified by Max's behavior in this episode.  I tend to fall on the romance side of his interactions with Liz, but I definitely understand the "run, girl!" reaction to things like "I've been thinking for 10 years about that one time you touched my lip" as well.

I think it might have worked better is Max had "hung a lampshade on it" by saying something like, "I know this probably sounds stalker-ish, but we aliens react more strongly to pheromones" (or homones, or whatever) "than you humans do." 
But, now that I read what I wrote, it kind of sounds even more scary, heh.

[Cristofle]

3 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

My new grassy knoll is that maybe Isabel mindwiped Max ten years ago after something happened around the time of Rosa's death.  Obviously it involved Liz.  Now she's back and the mindwipe has started to wear off. 

I'm sort of on this train troo. I feel like something happened between these two in the past that they don't remember enough to understand. That's very creepy on Isabel's part unless they come up with an amazingly awesome reason, though. 

Oh man, I can't imagine the mortification of someone bringing back the notes I wrote in high school. When I think about it, I not only hope those long-ago boys forgot about the melodramatic communications - I hope they forgot I existed. Which is not rational, since I'm Facebook friends with most of them, but that's how embarrassing it is. 

[memememe76]

I am really enjoying the show. I like the various mysteries taking place. They have done a pretty good job of juggling it all. 

I think Max has a goofy side, which balances out his angst for me. 

I also think for a CW show, they do a good job of portraying racism. The sheriff's antipathy of undocumented people is a very interesting take.

[shapeshifter]

11 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

I think Max has a goofy side, which balances out his angst for me. 

Goofy? How so?

[methodwriter85]

11 hours ago, memememe76 said:

I also think for a CW show, they do a good job of portraying racism. The sheriff's antipathy of undocumented people is a very interesting take.

It's actually realistic. My mother immigrated legally in the 1960's when she was a teenager and she has zero to no empathy to people that did it illegally. She's also addicted to watching Fox News currently, so I have to listen to this kind of shit a lot.

[Guest]

There is a strict No Politics rule at PTV. In fact, there is a pinned Mod Note at the top of this forum that addresses that very subject. Discuss what was presented on the show without bringing in current politics/politicians/political issues into your conversation. Moving forward, warnings will be issued for any posts violating this rule.

[Cristofle]

Y'all had me thinking I imagined it, but here's the tattoo on Max's back:

[KittenPokerCheater]

I would think Michael would have a tattoo of their constellation, not Max.

[Cristofle]

10 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

I would think Michael would have a tattoo of their constellation, not Max.

I was a little surprised too - I briefly thought they might both have it, but if it's on Michael anywhere, I didn't see it and we got a full shot of his chest and back during his love scene with Alex. I wonder if Max even consciously knows what it is? It doesn't seem they have yet gotten any help from anyone on where they come from. In the books, they all had memories of their home planet though. I vaguely recall something about clouds that weren't from earth. 

[shapeshifter]

14 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I was a little surprised too - I briefly thought they might both have it, but if it's on Michael anywhere, I didn't see it and we got a full shot of his chest and back during his love scene with Alex. I wonder if Max even consciously knows what it is? It doesn't seem they have yet gotten any help from anyone on where they come from. In the books, they all had memories of their home planet though. I vaguely recall something about clouds that weren't from earth. 

Maybe the tattoo is more of a kingly birthmark common to his extraterrestrial race.

[Myrrhine]

On 1/29/2019 at 9:15 PM, ParadoxLost said:

Convenient of Rosa to leave clues all over town; but Liz and Maria going to search them out and hang out was a lot of fun and what I've been missing the last couple episodes.

I liked that they gave some time to Liz being a biologist, but liked Liz and Maria Nancy Drew-ing all over town even more.

On 1/29/2019 at 9:25 PM, phoenics said:

I'm glad Max clearly didn't kill Rosa.  I don't think he tried to heal her either.  Maria said Rosa snuck out to meet someone - so who was it?  Was it an alien?

From this episode, it kind of seemed like we were supposed to think that Max finally told Liz the truth about his interactions with Rosa the night of her death, but from what the aliens have discussed in the previous episodes, I think there has to be something more. Was it Liz or Rosa Isabel mindwarped / wiped back then? And why? (I mean I have guesses.) The whole you can NEVER love Liz (Isabel) and the Liz can NEVER know (Max) conversation seemed to be about something more than oh I could have stopped Rosa from driving under the influence but I didn't. 

On 1/29/2019 at 9:32 PM, I-Kare said:

This! It's been weird because it's like Michael and Isobel love Max and would do anything for him (even misguided) but they really haven't shown him show much affection (even misguided) for them at all....at least from what I've seen. And the only connection I'm seeing between Isobel and Michael is through Max. I always complain about pilots having too much exposition but in this case I think they should have established everyone more before the drama started.

I'm interested that you think Michael and Isobel would do anything for Max, because I haven't gotten much of a sense of that from Michael at all. I did like to see Michael helping Isabel when she was vomiting after the failed mindwarp. And I want to know more about Isabel and Max's connection. If not for her conviction that Max was poisoned and "off" in some way, I would not have guessed that he was behaving strangely. I thought his stressed out, tired behavior was pretty consistent with him having exposed his secret to someone he's loved for a decade, possibly endangering himself and Isabel, and I guess Michael too. 

On 1/29/2019 at 10:52 PM, phoenics said:

Was his angst over the top?  In one episode, Liz recoiled from him like he was a monster, he found out she was making out with Kyle soon after he healed her (which just hammers home that she doesn't - he thinks - feel anything for him).  And then later he has to correct her thought that he was sleeping with her sister, admit the sappy love letter was about her and in order to convince her that he couldn't have killed her sister (Max looked so hurt when she accused him), he had to admit the depth and breadth of his feelings for her.  And admit that he drove away from Rosa when she was high when he could've stopped her.  Even though it's still not his fault, it's Max.  He'd feel responsible and like he let Liz and her family down.

That's a lot.  On top of this is that now he has to worry if Liz's mistrust of him jeopardizes their alien secret.

I'd be a wreck too.  His reaction made sense to me - especially if it's tied to his emotions, which would be all over the place.

On 1/31/2019 at 7:21 AM, Cristofle said:

While in general Max's melodramatic reaction to Liz is somewhat more concerning from a 28 year old than it was from a 16 year old, I feel like I can't really fault him for being so devastated and having such a visceral reaction to Liz's accusation. I'm not blaming Liz from her POV, but obviously Max did not kill Rosa because this is Roswell and it's Max, so from his POV, this is about a thousand times worse than his worst nightmare of how a human would react to his secret. Also it's the human he appears to care most about AND he let her experiment on him. And now it's hitting him that she did it while thinking he's an alien monster murderer. Max didn't react nearly so poorly when she claimed she wasn't that into him - he had the fairly average reaction of being hurt and hooking up with someone else on the fly. I don't think he's so unhinged because she doesn't love him - it's more that her thinking he's an actual murderer must truly be worse than his worst nightmare coming to life, and from his frantic calls to not only Isabel but Michael, he must be fully aware of how much danger he's put everyone in if she believes he's a murderer. 

I also thought Max's reaction made sense. And all those things about how exposed he is in terms of what Liz knows about him are pretty gut wrenching. I don't blame Liz for not auto-trusting him, but  it's a good point (as Phoenics posted) that he didn't dump the story on her to get her to reciprocate his love but to explain that he is not a murderer nor was he sleeping with her sister. 

On 1/30/2019 at 8:29 AM, kirkola said:

Isobel's scenes with Noah were excellent as well, though, I was speaking his dialogue before Noah could.  It's a minor quibble, but I wish the writer's were a bit stronger so I didn't know what he was saying before he said it.  On the other hand, Noah had me feeling the lines.  Also, nice use of Land Before Time.  (awww!)

The Michael/Alex thing is back to bothering me.  First Ep, they had no chemistry and made no sense.  Second Ep, they finally connected and the chemistry was definitely there.  Third Ep, Daddy Manes says no, so Alex breaks up with Michael?  Seriously?  You're 27-28 years old...and adult.  Act like one. 

I'm still not warming to Liz.  I still can't see the logical leaps that jumps from "I met an alien who has the ability to heal people" to "he must have murdered my sister" based on a glow-y hand print.  The leap ignores the end of last episode where he went out of his way to save her Dad.

Noah is so nice, for a minute there I thought he was hiding another woman / alien hunter when Isabel got home.

Alex was annoying me too. I liked the development that he is apparently out to his dad, and that his dad is objecting to Michael's riff raff status and not directly to them both being men. However, Alex's excuse was about the lamest thing I have ever heard. I have never heard a member of the armed forces refuse to associate with someone because "I'm an airman" and the other person is too low class to countenance. 

On 1/30/2019 at 10:05 PM, phoenics said:

1)  Liz didn't resist much of anything - Isabel can't mindcontrol - she can only suggest.  And it wasn't Liz resisting that stopped her, it was Liz's love for Max that Isabel felt that stopped Isabel.  She said she didn't have the heart to do it.

2)  That plot of Liz developing powers is from the old show not the books (in the books Liz doesn't develop powers).  Anything from the old show that's not in the books CANNOT be used because they don't have the rights to the old show.  Just the books that the old show was based on.  There is no Tess.  There is no Royal 4.  There is no Nacedo.  No Khivar.  No Antar.  None of that can be used because it was for the old show and didn't come from the books.  This show only has the rights to the books.

I think that Liz resisted somewhat; she said no to leaving town when Isabel told her to, but I do think that Isabel could have attempted to override her will (since she says she stopped herself from pushing more). I was impressed that her reasoning was a rush of intensity about Max that led her to believe that Liz loves Max. When Liz told her Max was the reason Liz wouldn't leave Roswell, I assumed that it was just about Liz's determination to investigate him and find out if he had something to do with Rosa's death/murder(?). 

I will be curious to see how much (general) overlap there is with the OG show. I don't expect them to lift characters from the OG show, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some broad stroke similarities over the course of the plot. I mean Isabel is married to someone of the same profession and honestly they have a rapport similar to that of Isabel and Jesse on the OGshow. I feel like Liz developing some kind of ability at some point could be general enough to feature in the current show, but we'll see. 

With regards to Isabel and Rosa, I also thought that there was a hint that she might have had a romantic connection with Rosa, since she heard "Rosa" say "I wish it could always be like this" during her attempt to mindwarp Liz. 

[Cristofle]

2 hours ago, Myrrhine said:

From this episode, it kind of seemed like we were supposed to think that Max finally told Liz the truth about his interactions with Rosa the night of her death, but from what the aliens have discussed in the previous episodes, I think there has to be something more. Was it Liz or Rosa Isabel mindwarped / wiped back then? And why? (I mean I have guesses.) The whole you can NEVER love Liz (Isabel) and the Liz can NEVER know (Max) conversation seemed to be about something more than oh I could have stopped Rosa from driving under the influence but I didn't. 

I think it is possible that for Max, this is the truth as he knows it. He clearly feels deeply guilty for running away instead of helping Rosa, or getting someone to stop her from driving. That was the memory that Max seemed to react to so negatively when he pushed Liz away in the last episode. And he probably told Isabel - or at least he thinks he did. However, Isabel clearly knows more about Rosa than she's saying, and I think Michael possibly does too. I think Max may know something deep down, but I'm not sure he remembers. 

I think Isabel definitely mindwarped Liz - Michael pretty clearly indicated as much in the pilot. And I can't IMAGINE Max knows that. Also, Isabel said it was "her fault" Max has been so unhappy (without Liz, presumably) for the past decade. But obviously, something happened to Rosa too (and I think Michael knows, at the very least - he didn't seem surprised Isabel was having flashes of Rosa). Oddly though, I sort of hope Isabel mindwarped Liz because of something that happened with Rosa and not just because she wants to keep Max all to herself, because if it's all about making sure she's #1 in Max's life, that's super creepy. 

[truthaboutluv]

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Max.  overcome with angst about Liz

I may be wrong but I didn't think Max's angst at the end was over Liz per se but over her thinking he murdered Rosa and more importantly, her clearly knowing that contrary to what was reported, Rosa didn't die from an accident. As we saw in the Pilot, Max was pretty adamant about not wanting Liz to ever know the truth about what happened to Rosa. So I think he was freaking out about that. 

Per my post in the second episode thread, yeah I continue to enjoy everyone but Liz. And like someone noted above, that "scientific" dialogue narration at the beginning was hilarious. The evidence is that this guy saved my life, is kind to my dad, risked exposing his very dangerous secret of being an alien to save my life, he lied about seeing my sister the day she died so ergo, the conclusion is that he killed her. Okay then, 

Considering how Michael and Isobel had no problems coming to blatantly threaten Liz, it's amazing her great scientific mind hasn't considered that if an alien killed her sister, maybe it was one of them and Max is simply keeping the secret as he would do considering they're kind of all in this "we're aliens" together. Oh no, in her mind it must absolutely mean that Max is some crazed murderer who killed her sister. 

I'm all for drama but again, like I said in the second episode thread, if I'm supposed to be shipping Max and Liz, so far, it ain't happening. I just feel sad for Max and want him to realize that whatever magic he thinks Liz' vagina has, there is probably one just as great. Translation, let it go and move on dude. I'm more concerned with his not being caught by crazy military man (and I see Trevor St. John continues to do menacing very well). Meanwhile, Liz is just sort of whatever for me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I need to see some automatic great love but it's just hard to sell me on this soul mate storyline when girl went from, "I'll keep your secret forever,  I'm not afraid of you even the slightest even though you are an alien, you can trust me and I know you'd never hurt me because I know you and you saved my life" to "he murdered my sister and I don't trust a word he says and he must be stopped". Like the hell? So at this point, that's the biggest thing not working in the show for me. I get that they thought this would make for some great tension to help drag and build up the romance but for me personally, it's hurting it.

And when a big part of what your show is based on is this supposed great love between two characters and I'm not buying it at all, this is a problem. I buy that Max is most certainly obsessed with Liz and thinks she's the great love of his life but Liz supposedly having this deep hidden love for Max, yeah no. I don't know if it's because Jeannette Mason isn't strong enough of an actress to pull off the nuance needed to show Liz torn and struggling with suspecting Max did something to Rosa but doubting those suspicions because of some conflicted feelings for him. Because right now, I just get suspicion from Liz towards Max and nothing else. 

eta: Oh, how could I forget. Not sure if anyone mentioned this but am I the only one who thinks there may have been something romantic between Isobel and Rosa and that's who she was seeing when Maria suspected she was involved with someone? The reason I suspect this is because of the whole situation when Isobel tried to mind control Liz.

I don't think this was Rosa's spirit protecting Liz or anything like that. I think there is something that happened between Isobel and Rosa in Isobel's past and when she tried to mess with Liz, those memories and maybe Liz somewhat reminding her of Rosa, threw everything off. I just thought the whole dialogue imaginary Rosa was saying, sounded more like a memory Isobel had with Rosa and not a hallucination. 

 

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I have never heard a member of the armed forces refuse to associate with someone because "I'm an airman" and the other person is too low class to countenance. 

I thought it was more the "Michael is a petty criminal" thing and not just that he's too low class. At least that's the impression I got when his dad mentioned the fact that Michael was essentially in jail practically every week. 

Edited February 3, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[Cristofle]

25 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Considering how Michael and Isobel had no problems coming to blatantly threaten Liz, it's amazing her great scientific mind hasn't considered that if an alien killed her sister, maybe it was one of them and Max is simply keeping the secret as he would do considering they're kind of all in this "we're aliens" together. Oh no, in her mind it must absolutely mean that Max is some crazed murderer who killed her sister. 

I actually do think she has considered it - she asked Max if Isobel and Michael are capable of making the handprint. But he's not answering her about it (understandably - he didn't know why she was asking and he was trying to protect their privacy to some extent) and he told her they all have "specialties" and different powers, so right now, Max is the only one she KNOWS is capable of creating the handprint. Given how seriously creepy Michael and Isobel were that night, I agree that she should probably give some more credence to at least the possibility it wasn't Max, lol, but I can sort of see, between his lying about not seeing Rosa the night she died and knowing Max can create the handprint but not being sure that Michael and Isobel can, how he jumped to the top of her suspect list.

That said, I sort of rolled my eyes when she was doing her internal monologue and said how Max can use his ability to heal and therefore to harm. It's sort of like saying "Well, this doctor can hold a scalpel to save someone's life, so he must have also stabbed this other random person in the neck!" Max doesn't really give off any indication of getting off on harming women, so it seems like more than a bit of a jump.

I actually do like Liz Ortecho more than I originally liked Liz Parker, though. She seems to have more of a personality, lol. And I do feel some sort of repressed longing on her end for Max, just not as ardent as his is for her because she hasn't spent the last decade secretly in love with him (that she knows of - I'm still sort of on the train that she has more feelings for Max than she understands and Isobel may have tried to wipe them out of her. I was interested when she kept saying she just couldn't connect to her former fiance). 

[kj4ever]

9 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I think it is possible that for Max, this is the truth as he knows it. He clearly feels deeply guilty for running away instead of helping Rosa, or getting someone to stop her from driving. That was the memory that Max seemed to react to so negatively when he pushed Liz away in the last episode. And he probably told Isabel - or at least he thinks he did. However, Isabel clearly knows more about Rosa than she's saying, and I think Michael possibly does too. I think Max may know something deep down, but I'm not sure he remembers. 

I think Isabel definitely mindwarped Liz - Michael pretty clearly indicated as much in the pilot. And I can't IMAGINE Max knows that. Also, Isabel said it was "her fault" Max has been so unhappy (without Liz, presumably) for the past decade. But obviously, something happened to Rosa too (and I think Michael knows, at the very least - he didn't seem surprised Isabel was having flashes of Rosa). Oddly though, I sort of hope Isabel mindwarped Liz because of something that happened with Rosa and not just because she wants to keep Max all to herself, because if it's all about making sure she's #1 in Max's life, that's super creepy. 

I'm  going to take a stab in the dark here and say that Isabel put the suggestion that Max was bad for Liz in Rosas head to keep them apart. Her visceral reaction to a simple love letter was just weird.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, kj4ever said:

I'm  going to take a stab in the dark here and say that Isabel put the suggestion that Max was bad for Liz in Rosas head to keep them apart. Her visceral reaction to a simple love letter was just weird.

That does make sense--and could mean that Isobel's lamenting about having made Max sad for 10 years was more than about her getting Liz to leave town (she did, right?).
BTW, why is it okay in Isobel's mind to be married to an Earthling herself?

[Cristofle]

9 hours ago, kj4ever said:

I'm  going to take a stab in the dark here and say that Isabel put the suggestion that Max was bad for Liz in Rosas head to keep them apart. Her visceral reaction to a simple love letter was just weird.

I thought Rosa’s reaction to Max was strangely negative too, if in her mind, all Max was was a shy boy with a massive crush on her sister who spent years building up the courage to write her one goofy love letter.

[Myrrhine]

On 2/2/2019 at 5:41 PM, Cristofle said:

I think it is possible that for Max, this is the truth as he knows it. He clearly feels deeply guilty for running away instead of helping Rosa, or getting someone to stop her from driving. That was the memory that Max seemed to react to so negatively when he pushed Liz away in the last episode. And he probably told Isabel - or at least he thinks he did. However, Isabel clearly knows more about Rosa than she's saying, and I think Michael possibly does too. I think Max may know something deep down, but I'm not sure he remembers. 

I think Isabel definitely mindwarped Liz - Michael pretty clearly indicated as much in the pilot. And I can't IMAGINE Max knows that. Also, Isabel said it was "her fault" Max has been so unhappy (without Liz, presumably) for the past decade. But obviously, something happened to Rosa too (and I think Michael knows, at the very least - he didn't seem surprised Isabel was having flashes of Rosa). Oddly though, I sort of hope Isabel mindwarped Liz because of something that happened with Rosa and not just because she wants to keep Max all to herself, because if it's all about making sure she's #1 in Max's life, that's super creepy. 

I went back and rewatched the pilot, and you are completely right that Michael's comments make it clear that Isabel mindwarped Liz. I had remembered that they referred to Isabel mindwarping ten years ago when Rosa died and Liz left, but not that they identified Liz as the victim of the decade old mindwarp. 

And you may also be right that Max has told all he knows, but what he said to Isabel at the end of the pilot was "Liz can never know what happened to Rosa." And to me that sounds like more than "she confronted me about my sappy love letter, and I let her drive away." That sounds to me like he knows why or how she died. His revelation that he let her leave even though he knew she was under the influence obviously weighed on him, but it doesn't materially change the story of how she died. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Myrrhine

[Cristofle]

24 minutes ago, Myrrhine said:

I went back and rewatched the pilot, and you are completely right that Michael's comments make it clear that Isabel mindwarped Liz. I had remembered that they referred to Isabel mindwarping ten years ago when Rosa died and Liz left, but not that they identified Liz as the victim of the decade old mindwarp. 

And you may also be right that Max has told all he knows, but what he said to Isabel at the end of the pilot was "Liz can never know what happened to Rosa." And to me that sounds like more than "she told confronted me about my sappy love letter, and I let her drive away." That sounds to me like he knows why or how she died. His revelation that he let her leave even though he knew she was under the influence obviously weighed on him, but it doesn't materially change the story of how she died. 

It's definitely possible, because that dialogue does seem a little out of proportion with what he's so far said happened (that he knew she was drunk and high, and fled instead of doing something to prevent her from driving). I feel like I don't know this Max well enough yet to know how close he is to the Max of the series and especially the books, I felt, where he felt such an overinflated sense of duty to everyone that he therefore blamed himself way out of proportion whenever anything went wrong. If this Max has in any way a normal grasp on cause and effect, then yes, saying "Liz can never know what happened to Rosa" seems too much for just not warning anyone that she was high that night. I THOUGHT he seemed pretty shocked by the notion that an alien killed her, but it's possible it was fear. I originally thought the handprint might have been an attempt on Max's part to save her (IIRC, in the first book, the body that Valenti showed Liz WAS someone that Max tried and failed to save. It was in the show that the handprint was someone Nasedo killed), but I sort of think Max would have told her that. So Option B is that Michael or Isobel attempted to save her and Max either doesn't know or doesn't want to share anything about them to Liz at this point, and Option C is that another alien entirely killed Rosa. 

[peachmangosteen]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

BTW, why is it okay in Isobel's mind to be married to an Earthling herself?

That's what I'm wondering. I don't get it and it's part of why Isobel is annoying.

[Whodunnit]

Maybe because she's a better liar? No, still doesn't make sense.

[Cristofle]

I think it's not that it's an "Earthling", it's that it's Liz, and something happened between Isobel and Rosa that Isobel doesn't want to get out. I'm less sure why Max is just letting her antagonism towards Liz fly for the most part (other than him finally snapping back at her in the early part of the episode, which he apologized for later anyway). But that does seem kind of in character for the Max of the books, because I do remember that she threatened to kill Maria and Max rightfully blew up at her, and then she started crying and he just apologized. What? LOL. No, she was still way in the wrong, dude. 

[phoenics]

On 2/1/2019 at 8:50 PM, Cristofle said:

Y'all had me thinking I imagined it, but here's the tattoo on Max's back:

OMG - how did I miss that?!?!?!?!  OMG!!

[phoenics]

On 2/2/2019 at 10:13 AM, shapeshifter said:

Maybe the tattoo is more of a kingly birthmark common to his extraterrestrial race.

Yeah - I know the show isn't supposed to take fromthe OGShow what isn't in the books, but that's pretty interesting and it definitely feels like some kind of "seal".

[methodwriter85]

On 2/3/2019 at 5:34 PM, Cristofle said:

I think it's not that it's an "Earthling", it's that it's Liz, and something happened between Isobel and Rosa that Isobel doesn't want to get out.

In the pilot, Isobel specifically says that Max can fall in love with anybody else, like anybody else who's on Earth. So it's not about the Earthling thing.

[AudienceofOne]

The writing on this show is terrible but for some reason I can't stop watching it. Maybe I was just in the mood for a classic mid-90s YA story transplanted forward to sex-positive adults. It doesn't change the fact that I'm regularly confused as to why various characters do what they do. I'm all for "will they turn evil" fakeouts but not every single damn character. 

On 1/30/2019 at 2:15 PM, ParadoxLost said:

But there is something so over the top about Max's declarations of love when in front of Liz that it feels like something is "wrong" with him.  Like he did some weird alien imprint thing with Liz when they were younger and this is some version of a werewolf finding its mate in a romance novel and they are just soulmates with no need for forming any kind of actual relationship.  Its getting off putting.

I mean... have you read YA? But from the TV series that I'm trying not to mention I got the idea the aliens were prone to intense emotional fixations. They were always madly in love pretty quickly and Isabelle even got married in ten seconds at one point. Both Max and Michael in this seem to be 100% all in on one person since highschool despite a decade away. Although in Michael's case I feel the angsty romance of it more fully since he and Alex were actually together and had some serious unresolved issues when Alex left town.

On 1/30/2019 at 2:46 PM, ParadoxLost said:

Yes.  But that part was working better for me when I was twenty years younger.  Now I'm starting to lean towards.  Run Liz, run instead of Aww.  They are meant to be together.  Star crossed. Destined to love each other.  Someone drop kick Tess off a cliff.  Lets sub in future Max or Zan if we have to.  I need some variation of this couple to work.  I'm going to write a fanfic,

I can't believe I'm going to say it but I would probably read it. I guess by aging them up they're attempting to overcome the structural issues with why teen Max and teen Liz were never going to make it. But they haven't really made it work.