Manhattan - General Discussion

[Rhetorica]

I appreciate all if your posts. I'm still trying to catch up; and with post concussion symptoms, I usually forget what I watched. Your insights make the show all the more enjoyable.

[shapeshifter]

Renewed!

 

http://io9.com/atomic-bomb-show-manhattan-renewed-for-a-second-season-1646269154

Hip, hip, hurray!

(I think that's how they would cheer in the '40s.)

[shapeshifter]

I appreciate all if your posts. I'm still trying to catch up; and with post concussion symptoms, I usually forget what I watched. Your insights make the show all the more enjoyable.

Probably better than our posts, recaps from Scientific American blog:

This week's: blogs.scientificamerican.com/cocktail-party-physics/2014/10/13/manhattan-recap-thin-man-implodes-spoilers/

Previous episodes:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/search/?q=manh%28a%29ttan+recap&x=-575&y=-211&display=search

Edited October 15, 2014 by shapeshifter

[shapeshifter]

Scientific American writer Jennifer Ouellette has been writing recaps.

See here: http://www.scientificamerican.com/search/?q=manh%28a%29ttan+recap&x=-575&y=-211&display=search

or here: blogs.scientificamerican.com/cocktail-party-physics/

Edited October 15, 2014 by shapeshifter

[Rhetorica]

Probably better than our posts, recaps from Scientific American blog:

This week's: blogs.scientificamerican.com/cocktail-party-physics/2014/10/13/manhattan-recap-thin-man-implodes-spoilers/

Previous episodes:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/search/?q=manh%28a%29ttan+recap&x=-575&y=-211&display=search

Thank you, shapeshifter, for posting that site. Jennifer Ouellette, the author noted:

"Remember that scene several episodes ago where we saw Ackley burning an envelope addressed to Oppenheimer? I’m guessing it was a confession to that effect." (that Thin Man would fail) Interesting theory. 

I'm going to read all recaps.

[ganesh]

I get that he was promoting and backing a loser that he believed in, but how much humiliation should be cast on someone for holding an erroneous idea in a new field?

 

It's not even *that* wrong. The gun model works with uranium-235; i.e., Fat Man. You just need a hell of a lot more of it than plutonium. You only need about 15 pounds of plutonium, and because of its density it's a pretty small size. You need almost 50 for uranium. 

 

I think the show is pointing out that the race to make the bomb first was a very real thing. If it's just an academic venture, then, it doesn't work, nbd, you write a paper about it so other people know that this is a dead end. That's not the case here. They put all this time into making it work and can't afford to go back to the drawing board. Fortunately, Frank is right about implosion, so they haven't lost anything. 

[catray]

Yay! I love this show (and so does my husband) so I'm really glad it's been renewed!

[shapeshifter]

Fortunately, Frank is right about implosion, so they haven't lost anything.

--except for poor Sid, Liza's sanity, etc. :(

Every week while watching the human toll, I keep thinking: This is why scientists today collaborate openly without Big Brother threatening them--but then I realize the same powers are still oppressing science under the guise of bureaucracy or the bottom line or sponsorship.

[shapeshifter]

Great interview with Sam Shaw: http://www.vox.com/2014/10/17/6993305/manhattan-project-facts-wgn-manhattan-interview-sam-shaw-season-finale

[Rhetorica]

Damn, that was good! Lots of surprises for the finale. Nice setup for the second season. I have to process before I write more.

[dohe]

Excellent interview Shapeshifter.  Here is one with Carole Weyers who touches on Abby and why she made that decision.  Pretty much the same as we have already discussed.  Poor Abby (especially after tonight).  Sometimes we don't realize how lucky we are to be alive in a different era. 

 

http://www.afterellen.com/carole-weyers-of-manhattan-on-her-free-spirited-character-elodie-and-the-shows-big-love-story/10/2014/

Edited October 20, 2014 by dohe

[janeta]

Wah! I hope they figure out a way to bring Frank back, I like him.

Oppie's kinda scary.

[ffg]

Is that Sibel Kekilli playing Abby's relative in the opening scene?  I swear it looks just like her.  The credits list a "Sonia Masi Osvkaya", who has zero credits on IMDB.

[shapeshifter]

So there was a spy in the group after all. Huh. Didn't see that coming.

It was nice to see Frank The Anti-Hero sacrifice himself to become a true hero. But sad. But he's still the star of the show, right? When Liza walked out and shut the door, did she know what he was doing? That they were bugged? It seemed like she knew.

I wonder if the sound of the door closing might somehow save Frank next season--proof that he was only saying stuff to save Charlie "for the good of the project."

Seeing Charlie alone in that dark windowless room was awful.

And Abby's pregnant. That would explain her decision to betray Elodie through her husband, but I'm guessing she didn't know yet that she was pregnant, because it was after that that she asked for a divorce. And I'm not sure she knew Elodie would be taken away too.

I wondered if Helen might be pregnant too. Abortions were pretty hard to get, and wasn't that before penecillin was discovered?

Is that Sibel Kekilli playing Abby's relative in the opening scene?  I swear it looks just like her.  The credits list a "Sonia Masi Osvkaya", who has zero credits on IMDB.

That was probably a typo. It now shows in IMDb that Malka was played by "award-winning actress" Sonia Maslovskaya.

[Emily Thrace]

Wah! I hope they figure out a way to bring Frank back, I like him.

 

I think they will. I think the military will go much easier on him for breaking compartmentalization then they would for stealing secrets. Its a security breach but its a much lesser crime than passing info to the Soviets or the Nazi's. Frank did the wrong thing for right reason I think the higher ups will realize that. They just want to make sure he isn't a spy first. Plus Frank is vital to the project which is a pretty good get out of jail free card. I suspect for the rest of the war the reaminder of Team Implosion will have better job security than Hawkeye Pierce.

 

Loved Abby her digs at Helen were awesome but not over the top. She was just generally awesome tonight. I love that underneath all the spoiled princess she really does have a big soft heart.  (I figured she'd get knocked up as soon as Charlie hooked up with Helen, though. Like I've said before leaving Abby is one thing but his kids is another.) I can't wait to see where her and Charlie go next. I think he is going to be truly pissed of about the affair as he should be but I also think they are in the most honest place they have been since the show started. I also think in sad sort of way Charlie proved to Abby how much he loves her by agreeing to the divorce. That scene really showed Charlie caring about Abby in a way we haven't seen for most of the season.

 

Aikley helping Abby's cousin was neat character note. Although even in death its hard to tell if Aikley was being truly kind or just self serving. I mean it could have a bribe to keep Charlie happy or just Aikley being decent its hard to tell. I think that's what I'll miss  about the character he was very complex it would have been fun to truly figure him. I felt truly awful for his wife, though.

 

I actually think that why I don't like Helen underneath all the bravado is I feel like she is just a spoiled princess. I really hate how often she complain bout how hard it is to be the only girl around but still is perfectly happy to sleep with another women's husband.  Her whole attitude about Charlie is very entitled and annoying.I actually at the point where I really don't like the character. I know some of it is the writing but she just feels very Mary Sueish t me.

 

I was sad to see Crowley go he is one of my faves I hope he comes back next year.

 

Was surprised to find out who the spy was but not shocked. I think if it had been someone we spent more time with I would have been more surprised.  Even the character's "episode" was more about Lau than him. The fact that I cannot remember his name says it all. I do wonder why he's doing this, my current guess is that Mom's care is expensive but that an awful risk to take for some quick cash.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Emily Thrace

[dubbel zout]

Oppie's kinda scary.

 

You think he's this brilliant dreamer-weirdo who floats above it all, and then—bam!—the venom comes out.

 

So there was a spy in the group after all. Huh. Didn't see that coming.

 

I didn't, either, and I was disappointed they went that route. Things are paranoid enough with introducing an actual spy to the mix.

 

I wondered if Helen might be pregnant too.

 

Lord, I hope not. That's getting way too soapy for me. I also like to think that Helen is careful enough to use protection. She already has a strike against her in the group for being a woman; getting pregnant would doom her career.

Edited October 20, 2014 by dubbel zout

[peeayebee]

That was a good finale. I can understand the Richard Schiff character believing that Charlie was a spy. The case was pretty convincing. 

 

I kept trying to figure out how Charlie would get out of this. The solution with Frank and the recording worked well. I would think that every house was bugged, but I guess not.

[shapeshifter]

...I would think that every house was bugged, but I guess not.

I think the order to bug all houses was given a few episodes ago. Why do you think all them weren't (which conversation in particular)?

[peeayebee]

Charlie asking Abby to plant the evidence.

[applecrisp]

Damn, that was good! Lots of surprises for the finale. Nice setup for the second season. I have to process before I write more.

Amen to that.  I am glad I didn't stay up late last night to watch it.  Just too much.  I really have grown to like a lot of these characters.

[Lawgiver]

I wonder if SpyGlasses (can't remember his name, either!) was actively thwarting implosion or just reporting on general research direction. I would think the others in the group would have been smart enough to see deliberate mistakes. I also wonder if Glen is involved at all, given his former lover. So many questions! At least we know Elodie didn't get Abby pregnant. ;-)

[dohe]

A sad if fitting conclusion to the end of season 1, one full of moral dilemmas and quandaries.  If you're making a show concerning the Manhattan Project that seems apt.  As utterly annoying and repulsive as Charlie has been through out this season, the show still managed to leave me going he doesn't deserve this while actually comprehending why Mr. Fisher (a terrific Richard Schiff) would reasonably think he is a spy.  For while Charlie may be an immature scumbag, he is not a spy.  Then I think how he had no problem putting someone else and that person's wife through this Hell.  That other man was a scumbag but again he was not guilty of what he was accused of.  So there is some karma here.  It was also enjoyable to watch him confronted with Fisher's dead on comment.  When Fisher says Abby is a "complicated woman" it is sort of enjoyable because Charlie's patronizing, demeaning stance against Abby has reflected his lack of respect for her intelligence and complexity.  Yet Abby is far more comprehending of the moral quandaries occurring and the absurdist nature of the environment in a way that Charlie doesn't seem to grasp. 

 

Abby is left in a horrible position.  It is evident that she cares for Charlie but seems to be as the father of her child more than anything else.  Now she is stuck with another child on the way having, momentarily, glimpsed freedom from the hellish environment and from a marriage with someone she is not in love with.  In the 1940's she has found herself stuck in the American dream turned nightmare and with limited options.  Her life has become a lie.  As a gay man, all I can say is considering what Glen and Abby have been put through thank goodness I didn't live in that era!

 

So is Fritz who has deluded himself into believing there is true love.  And there is Helen who lied and in doing so limited someone who has struggled as she has to get ahead.  Confronted with the ransacked house and a woman who sees through her, Helen maybe, for the first time, reflects a bit on her actions.  Frank certainly does.  I think his decision is about more than feeling awful for what is happening to Charlie.  I think deep down there is an awareness that for this program to succeed Charlie is the one person they cannot lose...maybe even more than himself. 

 

In a dream world, this would be looking at awards for actor (Hickey), supporting actress (Brosnahan who is the standout), and supporting actor (Schiff). 

Edited October 20, 2014 by dohe

[NorthstarATL]

This episode almost had me rooting for the Nazis.

[bentley]

God, what a clusterf*ck. Just when you think you know where it's going... I figured Frank would use his new-found clout to insist that Charlie be released because he's crucial to the project. Instead he's like Moses making it to the Promised Land, only to be denied it himself. I like that his mistakes in Episode  1 are still impacting events in the finale. It also explains why the confrontation I was expecting between Spyglasses (heh) and Frank never happened. Of all the people ill-equipped to deliver a lecture about betrayal and morality...It doesn't explain how he knew about Magpie, though. Will have to ponder that.

 

I don't think Frank's wife was complicit. I think she walked out in genuine disgust, as he knew she would.

 

I continue to loathe Mr. Fisher. If he doesn't meet some horrible end before this series is over, I will be so disappointed.

 

I wonder if Charlie knows what Frank did for him.I still hold out hope they can be friends and colleagues. Together they could be formidable.

 

Gerald McRaney continues his quest to guest star on every TV show ever (with Peter Stormare hot on his heels) Love both of them.

 

Did anyone recognize the song playing as everything went to hell for everybody? Don't know if it was period-appropriate, but it was perfect.

Edited October 21, 2014 by bentley

[Me Too]

Well, they certainly saved the best for last. Loved, loved, loved this episode. I am still in gob smacked shock (in a good way) over some of the latest developments and am so looking forward to future developments next season.

Questions: Did the show make it clear who actually fingered the German scientest? Is the traitorous Meeks working for the Nazis or the Russians?

I don't know about anybody else, but I have my DVR set up to record the marathon. It's going to be so good to rewatch all the episodes now that we know where the story is going. You know, all those little things that meant nothing or that you interpreted a certain way but now we know their true significance.

Bottom line, I am not ready for the story to end.

[peeayebee]

I kind of want to watch the marathon to help put the pieces together, but I don't think I have the time. 

[kay1864]

Is it possible Frank Winter won't be back?  I don't see the paranoid Mr. Fisher understanding/believing the sound of the door closing on the tape.  Or accepting that he was duped into letting Charlie-the-spy go free.

 

It's hard to imagine the show without Frank, but he was getting harsher treatment than the usual suspected spy.  Elodie and her husband didn't have bags over their heads.  Almost like Frank was heading off to a quick execution in the desert.

 

At least we know there will be a season 2 in 2015.  Until this ep I couldn't find anything on the net about a renewal.

Edited October 21, 2014 by kay1864

[shapeshifter]

...As utterly annoying and repulsive as Charlie has been through out this season...

Am I the only one here who saw Charlie as a slightly flawed but generally good person and the hero of the piece? (I saw Frank as the anti-hero until, perhaps, his "confession" into the microphone planted under the kitchen sink, which elevated him to a Christ-like figure who made the ultimate sacrifice to save humanity--more or less.)

...I have my DVR set up to record the marathon. It's going to be so good to rewatch all the episodes now that we know where the story is going. You know, all those little things that meant nothing or that you interpreted a certain way but now we know their true significance....

...That other man [Elodie's husband] was a scumbag but again he was not guilty of what he was accused of.  So there is some karma here [for Charlie]....

I missed that! I won't have the opportunity to rewatch the series, but I'd be interested to know if this happened to all of the "rats."

...Did the show make it clear who actually fingered the German scientest? Is the traitorous Meeks working for the Nazis or the Russians?...

I assumed Meeks was responsible, but maybe not. Looking at this WWII timeline and this Manhattan Project timeline, it seems more likely the knowledge would have gone to the Nazis. But it's also possible Meeks thought he was just feeding information to Russians, but that there was a German spy in the midst of the Russian operatives. A possible plot development for next season!

[Farnham]

Well, they certainly saved the best for last. Loved, loved, loved this episode. I am still in gob smacked shock (in a good way) over some of the latest developments and am so looking forward to future developments next season. Questions: Did the show make it clear who actually fingered the German scientist? Is the traitorous Meeks working for the Nazis or the Russians? I don't know about anybody else, but I have my DVR set up to record the marathon. It's going to be so good to rewatch all the episodes now that we know where the story is going. You know, all those little things that meant nothing or that you interpreted a certain way but now we know their true significance. Bottom line, I am not ready for the story to end.

Russians or Nazis? Hmmm... we wonder about that. Given the later loss of critical data to the Russians about the Hydrogen Bomb, I suspect them. Did they finger Magpie to slow down the US progress? Hmmm... A great season finale.

[Farnham]

From the Britannica: Russian “restructuring” program instituted in the Soviet Union by Mikhail Gorbachev in the mid-1980s to restructure Soviet economic and political policy. Seeking ...

 

Wow, reforming the project, after the 'gadget' wreaked havoc on the lives of so many on the hill. Frank's life changing opportunity was not exactly the obvious. Great ones may not be good ones, but Frank delivered the success of implosion in a dramatic and brilliant stroke. Frank and Liza are my two heroes, and remind me that great partners are required to achieve world change. One gets the credit, but but both deserve recognition.

[Farnham]

Is it possible Frank Winter won't be back?  I don't see the paranoid Mr. Fisher understanding/believing the sound of the door closing on the tape.  Or accepting that he was duped into letting Charlie-the-spy go free.

 

It's hard to imagine the show without Frank, but he was getting harsher treatment than the usual suspected spy.  Elodie and her husband didn't have bags over their heads.  Almost like Frank was heading off to a quick execution in the desert.

 

At least we know there will be a season 2 in 2015.  Until this ep I couldn't find anything on the net about a renewal.

Op and Stimson trump anyone below, and Fisher will do what they say. Frank's final solution gives them the perfect way out of the mess, and onto the path of success. Frank and Liza carefully orchestrated the wire recording, to do what everyone needed. It saves the project, it saves the Isaacs, and it provides atonement for Frank's sins. It is something that 'not a good man, but a great one' would do. Op and Stimson see it. Whether Frank's sacrifice is total, or they just need to remove him from the scene (Leavenworth?) until after the war, remains to be the biggest question I have for Series 2.

[dubbel zout]

I can understand the Richard Schiff character believing that Charlie was a spy. The case was pretty convincing.

 

It's the guy's job to see spies everywhere, so on that level, I can understand it. But just because Akley gets out two of Abby's relatives from Poland (Russia? somewhere suspect) doesn't mean they're passing atomic secrets to Charlie. Schiff's character saw the relatives. It was clear to me that Charlie was just a name to them. If Charlie was at Ellis Island, I doubt they'd recognize him.

 

The thing with Elodie's husband could be put down to professional jealousy and anger at how he treated Abby. Charlie made some serious mistakes. But that doesn't mean he's a spy. Abby's affair with Elodie doesn't make Charlie a spy, either.

 

I understand why things went this way—so Frank could make his grand sacrifice—but I did roll my eyes at a lot of it.

 

Gerald McRaney continues his quest to guest star on every TV show ever (with Peter Stormare hot on his heels) Love both of them.

Hee. McRaney does great bluster with instant authority. He was a good choice for the secretary of war.

[shapeshifter]

...Whether Frank's sacrifice is total, or they just need to remove him from the scene (Leavenworth?) until after the war, remains to be the biggest question I have for Series 2.

I'm probably just in my usual fog of denial, but I still hope Op will choose to and be able to get Frank reinstated at least long enough to ensure the success of the project.

[dohe]

Am I the only one here who saw Charlie as a slightly flawed but generally good person and the hero of the piece? (I saw Frank as the anti-hero until, perhaps, his "confession" into the microphone planted under the kitchen sink, which elevated him to a Christ-like figure who made the ultimate sacrifice to save humanity--more or less.)

Charlie may end up being the hero but I certainly don't see him as a good person at this time.  He acts like a class A scumbag.  Yet as repulsive as he is there is an upside.  That is that a lot of his behavior comes from immaturity and hubris.  That is what makes karma served so gratifying.  Here is Charlie, who has caused 3 people to sit in a room with Mr. Fisher, having to sit through his own miserable session.  The people that Charlie caused to be in that room were all innocent of espionage.  Charlie knowingly threw two people in there and the other one, Glen, ended up there because Charlie could not stand someone being smarter than him about something.  When Charlie makes his comment to Glen it is not because he is concerned about spies.  He is upset due to his massive ego.  This is what makes his session so brutal.  He is forced to live through the hell he has made others undergo.  And what can he say?  That he is not a spy.  Well neither were Glen or Lancefield or Elodie.

 

Abby also suffers karma.  The worst possible scenario for her now is pregnancy.  But again she betrayed Elodie because she was a coward.  She listened to her scumbag husband and lowered herself.  So she is now stuck with this weasel in a noxious environment.  

 

Can Charlie change?  I don't know.  In some ways, the best thing may be a romance with Helen.  A situation where he is confronted by another person with a big ego and a lack of integrity (shown with her betrayal of Theodore).  Sometimes jerks are the best at confronting other jerks about their flaws. 

[Emily Thrace]

.  Here is Charlie, who has caused 3 people to sit in a room with Mr. Fisher, having to sit through his own miserable session.  The people that Charlie caused to be in that room were all innocent of espionage.  Charlie knowingly threw two people in there and the other one, Glen, ended up there because Charlie could not stand someone being smarter than him about something

Charlie said something true when he was drunk most people have done the same it doesn't make him a bad person.  He had no way of knowing how seriously the army would take what he said. Especially since it was about a Russian sceintist a supposed ally. Charlie was also the one who lied to get Glenn out of that room. He made a mistake but he fixed it that speaks of soemone with concience.Glenn was the one who lied about his connection in the first place. Really I don't think anyone is particularly to blame in that situation. That was case of the military being very agressive in their tactics.

 

I also think Charlie figured Elodie's husband had the connections to get out of whatever lock-up the army put him in. That's part of why Charlie hated him so much in the first place he's clearly very rich and conected. People like him tend to land on thier feet, I wouldn't be shocked if that guy turns up down the line.

 

If Charlie truly was a weasel he would have sold Frank out the minute Fisher put the screws to him but he didn't. Charlie protected Frank and Helen which again speak to someone who cares more about the cause than the credit.

 

Abby is left in a horrible position.  It is evident that she cares for Charlie but seems to be as the father of her child more than anything else.  Now she is stuck with another child on the way having, momentarily, glimpsed freedom from the hellish environment and from a marriage with someone she is not in love with.  In the 1940's she has found herself stuck in the American dream turned nightmare and with limited options.  Her life has become a lie.

 

  I think Abby still loves Charlie I think her reaction to his interrogation would have been very different if she didn't; I don't think she would have ever planted those paper's if she truly loved Elodie. I think she was angry with Charlie but now they are in a very honest place. I actually tihnk they've got a better chance now than they ever have before.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Emily Thrace

[shapeshifter]

I also think Charlie figured Elodie's husband had the connections to get out of whatever lock-up the army put him in. That's part of why Charlie hated him so much in the first place he's clearly very rich and conected. People like him tend to land on thier feet, I wouldn't be shocked if that guy turns up down the line....

Lancefield (Elodie's husband) implied that when he told Charlie he could afford to lose a hand or two (at poker) right after he threatened/promised to get Charlie sent to certain death at the front in the episode, "Tangiers":

When Akley gets back, you're goin' away. Who knows? Saipan? New Guinea?There's no Jew quarters there to hold you back. An ambitious kid like you. You'll move up fast. Right to the front.

I don't see Charlie as having a choice at that point other than to do whatever it took to get rid of Lancefield--not just for the welfare of himself and his family, but for the Jewish people in Europe who he saw in the pictures, for whom he saw the bomb as the only hope. Anyway, I like Charlie.

I just noticed that Richard Schiff's character's name in IMDb is simply "Occam," as in "Occam's razor," perhaps?

[dohe]

Charlie said something true when he was drunk most people have done the same it doesn't make him a bad person.  He had no way of knowing how seriously the army would take what he said. Especially since it was about a Russian sceintist a supposed ally. Charlie was also the one who lied to get Glenn out of that room. He made a mistake but he fixed it that speaks of soemone with concience.Glenn was the one who lied about his connection in the first place. Really I don't think anyone is particularly to blame in that situation. That was case of the military being very agressive in their tactics.

 

I also think Charlie figured Elodie's husband had the connections to get out of whatever lock-up the army put him in. That's part of why Charlie hated him so much in the first place he's clearly very rich and conected. People like him tend to land on thier feet, I wouldn't be shocked if that guy turns up down the line.

 

If Charlie truly was a weasel he would have sold Frank out the minute Fisher put the screws to him but he didn't. Charlie protected Frank and Helen which again speak to someone who cares more about the cause than the credit.

 

 

  I think Abby still loves Charlie I think her reaction to his interrogation would have been very different if she didn't; I don't think she would have ever planted those paper's if she truly loved Elodie. I think she was angry with Charlie but now they are in a very honest place. I actually tihnk they've got a better chance now than they ever have before.

Most people would not have said the same as Charlie at the bar.  Most scumbags would but not most people.   As for the well Charlie figures Lancefield and Elodie will land on their feet bit, that is Charlie rationalization.  Does Charlie actually believe Frank or Elodie will be fine?  That is highly doubtful.  Because Charlie is, in that moment, is focused on Charlie and willing to do whatever it takes to save Charlie.  And he is willing to say whatever he does to, in one of the more vile moments I have ever seen from a person to their spouse, exploit Abby.   

 

Charlie's behavior is of a full fledged scumbag in both instances.  The patronizing of Abby and his coworkers is a character flaw.  They don't make him a jerk alone as much as an immature person.  The comment at the bar and the decision to destroy Lancefield and his wife are the acts of a lowlife.  Someone beneath contempt.  Which is why the 2nd season will hopefully deal with this piece of crap redeeming himself.  His rationalizations don't cut it.  And I certainly won't make rationalizations for this creep.  Heck he isn't even on the cheating.  Abby was wrong to cheat.  However Charlie even takes that to a special Charlie level as he cheats after his noxious, sickening exploitation of Abby. 

 

I cannot disagree more about Abby and Charlie.   I am not invested in them staying together in their toxic relationship which in Abby's case comes across now as more a marriage of convenience.  Now unless Abby has no soul and no heart (or is trying to detach herself from Charlie because she feels immense guilt for what happened) of course she is going to be upset at the interrogation of the father of her child.  It isn't as if she hates Charlie.  I think she does love him too.  But she is not in love with him.  As for the notion she did not love Elodie because she planted the papers, I think that reading ignores the context of the time and the writer who purposefully makes it clear before Abby commits her act - Abby does what she does because of the heterosexist expectations of her time, a time when expectations were you marry and have kids and have a picket fence.  And considering now people still betray themselves, the 40's were a whole other level for LGBT people, particularly in this case someone with a child and now another on the way. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by dohe

[Tim McD]

Gerald McRaney continues his quest to guest star on every TV show ever

 

 

Yeah, between Gerald McRaney and Rachel Brosnahan the cross-pollination with House of Cards is getting serious.

[shapeshifter]

A review of this book just came across my desk: 
Churchill's bomb: How the United States overtook Britain in the first nuclear arms race, by Graham Farmelo. 2013.

...although Winston Churchill strongly promoted nuclear energy for both industrial and military purposes before WW II...his push for a British bomb during the war proved both awkwardly handled and shortsighted...Churchill's insufficient policies derived from his obstinate reliance on the counsel of a single science adviser, the disputatious Oxford physicist Frederick Lindemann...
...President Truman deprived Britain of information gleaned from America's successful hydrogen bomb testing...
...Churchill...became so horrified at the prospect of a nuclear holocaust that he subsequently pursued a policy of détente with Russia.
--[review by] M. Schiff

 

I wonder if next season will see some new characters from/in Britain.

Edited October 22, 2014 by shapeshifter

[Klick]

Congrats to WGN for creating a smart and artistic program. I have been transformed to the 1940's in every episode.  It has sparked my interest in this historic moment. Frank must return :)

[renatae]

Is it possible Frank Winter won't be back?  I don't see the paranoid Mr. Fisher understanding/believing the sound of the door closing on the tape.  Or accepting that he was duped into letting Charlie-the-spy go free.

 

It's hard to imagine the show without Frank, but he was getting harsher treatment than the usual suspected spy.  Elodie and her husband didn't have bags over their heads.  Almost like Frank was heading off to a quick execution in the desert.

 

At least we know there will be a season 2 in 2015.  Until this ep I couldn't find anything on the net about a renewal.

 

I've actually been wondering if the reason the guy had the bag over his head was because it *wasn't* Frank, but that we are supposed to believe it was. However, I can't say who it would have been, if not him. Since Frank only confessed and alluded to violating compartmentalization, it made me wonder first, if they wouldn't have just kept him on for the sake of the project, and secondarily, as you noted, this seemed far too extreme of a "removal" for what Frank confessed to.

 

I also wonder why Occam was still looking for spies after Lancefield was framed.

Charlie and Abby, when it gets down to the nitty gritty, revealed that despite the past, they still care about each other first and foremost. I loved the way she touched his face when she realized the danger, and how he wanted her to seek a divorce for her protection.

 

 

Am I the only one here who saw Charlie as a slightly flawed but generally good person and the hero of the piece?

 

 

I've really felt Charlie was a pretty good sort. Nope, not perfect, and sometimes you want to smack him upside the head, but overall an earnest person trying to do the right thing - until Lancefield. That was very low of him, even though Lancefield posed such a threat.

 

 

I wondered if Helen might be pregnant too. Abortions were pretty hard to get, and wasn't that before penecillin was discovered?

 

 

She certainly was acting rabbity. She never seemed concerned one way or another for Charlie and now she seems OTT. I don't really think the one night stand in and of itself would cause such a shift in her behavior. I didn't feel that her desire to remain unattached was due solely to the fact she didn't want much of a relationship with Paul Crosley. I'm not sure of the timeline, but I got the impression that Charlie was arrested the day after they were together, or at least very soon afterward.

 

I'm not sure what connection you're making between abortion and penicillin, but I'm curious. :) Penicillin was discovered in the 20's and the first widespread use was for war injuries during WWII. They would give a course of daily injections for about six months. That's how my mom met my dad. He was a paratrooper wounded during the Battle of the Bulge and my mom was his "penicillin nurse" stateside.

[dubbel zout]

I also wonder why Occam was still looking for spies after Lancefield was framed.

 

It's his job, for one thing (not to be flip), and I also think he's the sort of person who's going to keep looking for spies until it kills him. I think he won't feel successful until he puts every last one of them away himself. And maybe he won't care if the people aren't actually spies. He's very good at his job, but I think he also sees spies where they aren't. It must be a very weird job to have. I still hate him, though. ;-)

 

Not every abortion was a horror story.

[shapeshifter]

...I've really felt Charlie was a pretty good sort. Nope, not perfect, and sometimes you want to smack him upside the head, but overall an earnest person trying to do the right thing - until Lancefield. That was very low of him, even though Lancefield posed such a threat.

I guess I'm going to have to just sit over here in my cheering section of one. I was glad Charlie was able to survive and ensure the survival of the program (which they thought would bring world peace and save lives) in spite of Lancefield's wealth, connections, and just being a white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant male. They already showed us what happened to Sid--and even if he had "just" been sent to the front as a foot soldier, I expect he would have died much the same way.

 

...I'm not sure what connection you're making between abortion and penicillin, but I'm curious. :) Penicillin was discovered in the 20's and the first widespread use was for war injuries during WWII. They would give a course of daily injections for about six months. That's how my mom met my dad. He was a paratrooper wounded during the Battle of the Bulge and my mom was his "penicillin nurse" stateside.

That's an awesome love story! Tell me you're writing the screen play!

Anyway, about abortion and penicillin: I was thinking that if she had an abortion, it would likely be in a situation where sterility was less than perfect and infection was likely--and possibly lethal. :>(

[peeayebee]

I'll join you in the Charlie cheering section. I don't think he's a horrible person. He's flawed, but he recognizes his flaws and is trying to be better. 

[ganesh]

Am I the only one here who saw Charlie as a slightly flawed but generally good person and the hero of the piece?

He acts like a class A scumbag.  Yet as repulsive as he is there is an upside.  That is that a lot of his behavior comes from immaturity and hubris. 

 

 

Yeah, I don't think he's a manipulating villain. But he plagarized on his paper and cheated on his wife. He's kind of a dbag. I don't think he's nearly as brilliant as everyone says he is either. He was smart enough to realize Thin Man wouldn't work and used his position to do something about it.

 

Things are paranoid enough with introducing an actual spy to the mix.

 

This is historically accurate though. Given the bomb not only ended WWII, but it completely re configured global politics for the next half century, I think they should include it.

 

I saw an ad for this show in EW and thought I'd check it out because there's literally zero shows not only in my field, but where the main characters are scientists. I'm glad I did. This was really entertaining.

 

Wow, is Oppenheimer super creepo or what?

[shapeshifter]

...Wow, is Oppenheimer super creepo or what?

Now that you mention it, yes he is!

Perhaps the main focus of the show was supposed to be the build up to McCarthyism and "the second Red Scare." It's interesting how we, the viewers, got just as wrapped up in the characters' personal lives as the real players no doubt did at the time, losing focus on the bigger picture--a sort of mass hysteria. Good job show!

Definition of perestroika:

From the Britannica: Russian “restructuring” program instituted in the Soviet Union by Mikhail Gorbachev in the mid-1980s to restructure Soviet economic and political policy. Seeking ...

--which was followed by "Glasnost" or "opening." I wonder if Season 2 episode 1 will be titled that. Edited October 25, 2014 by shapeshifter

[renatae]

It's his job, for one thing (not to be flip), and I also think he's the sort of person who's going to keep looking for spies until it kills him. I think he won't feel successful until he puts every last one of them away himself. And maybe he won't care if the people aren't actually spies. He's very good at his job, but I think he also sees spies where they aren't. It must be a very weird job to have. I still hate him, though. ;-)

 

Oh, me, too! He's a real creep. And Oppie is not far behind. Supposedly, he's the backbone of the piece; however, he seems to spend most of his time dining on white linen, attended to by servants, while all the others eat dust cooked on hot plates and bust their rears trying to get the job done.

 

I guess I'm going to have to just sit over here in my cheering section of one. I was glad Charlie was able to survive and ensure the survival of the program (which they thought would bring world peace and save lives) in spite of Lancefield's wealth, connections, and just being a white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant male. They already showed us what happened to Sid--and even if he had "just" been sent to the front as a foot soldier, I expect he would have died much the same way.

 

 

Not really! I have always liked Charlie, even in his worst moments. I think I feel the same about him as I do about Don on Mad Men; "I hate myself for loving you!" So much of their behavior is indefensible, but I can't help but like them anyway. Flawed, but somewhere inside is a rather decent core, even though they don't often live up to it.

 

No, I'm not writing the screenplay about my parents. :) But it is a cool love story!

 

The race to produce penicillin in sufficient amounts rather paralleled the race to produce sufficient plutonium.

Edited October 25, 2014 by renatae

[shapeshifter]

Oppie's kinda scary.

Wow, is Oppenheimer super creepo or what?

Interestingly, the actor who plays Oppenheimer, Daniel London, also played a creepy scientist on Gotham this past week in the "Viper" episode.

But he plagarized on his paper and cheated on his wife.

Although I was not proud of Charlie for either, in both cases it seemed like he didn't seek to do either. He explained to Frank that he didn't notice his failure to cite the paragraph until after it was published, and then later Frank reassured him that the paragraph wasn't what made Charlie's paper groundbreaking anyway.

As for the cheating, I was was never sure whether he first cheated in the hotel room, or if he resisted the temptation. Then, later, when he definitely slept with Helen, it seemed like he was motivated largely by learning that his wife was having a sexual relationship with f'in' Lancefield's wife. [Whoops. Wrong. Corrected below] I'm not sure if that would be revenge sex, or to prove his manliness in a time of homophobia, or just to be close to someone to whom he can relate professionally, or all of the above. Morally, none of those can be excused, but as a long ago divorced person who forgave cheating--it's not the real deal breaker for me, but I respect that milage varies, and for most people it is.

Edited October 26, 2014 by shapeshifter

[dohe]

Interestingly, the actor who plays Oppenheimer, Daniel London, also played a creepy scientist on Gotham this past week in the "Viper" episode.

Although I was not proud of Charlie for either, in both cases it seemed like he didn't seek to do either. He explained to Frank that he didn't notice his failure to cite the paragraph until after it was published, and then later Frank reassured him that the paragraph wasn't what made Charlie's paper groundbreaking anyway.

As for the cheating, I was was never sure whether he first cheated in the hotel room, or if he resisted the temptation. Then, later, when he definitely slept with Helen, it seemed like he was motivated largely by learning that his wife was having a sexual relationship with f'in' Lancefield's wife. I'm not sure if that would be revenge sex, or to prove his manliness in a time of homophobia, or just to be close to someone to whom he can relate professionally, or all of the above. Morally, none of those can be excused, but as a long ago divorced person who forgave cheating--it's not the real deal breaker for me, but I respect that milage varies, and for most people it is.

 

It was important enough that Frank immediately saw that plagiarism had occurred and that it played a part in his antagonistic relationship to Charlie.  Charlie committed plagiarism and, based on what we have seen of him since then in terms of his willingness to be deceitful I don't see any reason to conclude it was just a silly, unintentional mistake.  If anything, I think the plagiarism is a way to show that Charlie is the sort of person who displays a lack of integrity if he can get away with it.

 

As for Charlie's cheating, he cheated on Abby with Helen before he found out about Abby and Elodie's affair.  He learned of their affair from Mr. Fisher in the last episode when he was being interrogated. 

 

To be fair, Abby has also cheated on Charlie and repeatedly at that.  And I agree that cheating is not a dealbreaker when it comes to a character.  Frank, Charlie and Abby are all wrong to cheat but infidelity does not make them horrible people.  What does make Charlie's infidelity specifically galling is that he does so after he exploits Abby in the most despicable way, a way that is, imo, a larger betrayal than infidelity.  What was done to Lancefield and Elodie is so immoral, so sickening that it is difficult to watch Charlie at this point.  That is what makes Charlie a scumbag more than anything else.  But there are then reactions to the horrible act that was committed on those two people.  Abby's reaction is one of intense pain, regret and shame.  Charlie's reaction is to go get laid.  That is why it made sense in terms of karma for Charlie to go through what he did, to see what Lancefield and Elodie must have experienced.  As Charlie goes through that hell, he can think he is being looked at as a spy incorrectly and he is right.  Yet he knowingly did the same thing to two other people.     

 

A classic storyline is a protagonist doing something indefensible and somehow finding redemption.  Hopefully Charlie can.  Same for Abby who, in her own moment of karma, ends up in the worst possible position just as she seemed about to gain her freedom from this marriage.  The question is how can Abby and Charlie make up for their horrible act. 

 

As for the show foreshadowing the second Red Scare, I think we are already seeing the foreshadowing the Lavender Scare which went hand in hand with the second Red Scare.  We have two queer characters Abby and Glen.  Now it is known by Mr. Fisher that Abby is queer and no doubt, if Glen returns next season (I certainly hope so), I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Fisher is still keeping a close eye on him.  Also doubt Mr. Fisher is done with Abby.

Edited October 26, 2014 by dohe

[shapeshifter]

...later, when he definitely slept with Helen, it seemed like he was motivated largely by learning that his wife was having a sexual relationship with f'in' Lancefield's wife....

...As for Charlie's cheating, he cheated on Abby with Helen before he found out about Abby and Elodie's affair.  He learned of their affair from Mr. Fisher in the last episode when he was being interrogated....

Oops! Right! But I do seem to recall him being motivated by the implosion (sorry, irresistible double entendre) of his marriage. Did he run to Helen as a reaction to Elodie saying she wanted a divorce?