S04.E10: The Children

[Constantinople]

But let's not project our own sense of justice and morality in the world of GoT - I'm totally fine with murder in this universe if it's justified in the sense that the victim deserved it. Because otherwise pretty much every character would be guilty of something. I don't even blame Cersei for assisting in/planning Roberts little hunting accident, because he did treat her like shit. In the same way, Shae deliberately screwed Tyrion over at the trial and then "betrayed" him with his father. Albeit this came after a tragic misunderstanding (when Tyrion insulted her to get her to leave), from his point of view I think it was understandable. Even if it wasn't even out of self preservation, but out of pure rage.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

1. Tyrion didn't kill Shae moments after she testified.  Tyrion knows his sister well enough to know that Cersei almost certainly didn't give Shae a choice about whether to testify, and Tyrion has had plenty of time to reflect on this.  Cersei may have thrown some money Shae's way to sweeten the deal, but fundamentally Shae's "choice" was to either to testify against Tyrion or become dog chow.

 

2. Shae didn't betray Tyrion with his father because Tyrion doesn't get a veto over Shae's sexual partners.

 

When Tyrion insulted Shae to get her to leave King's Landing, he told her that Sansa was fit to bear his children, and Shae was not.  The thing is, Tyrion meant it, at least in the sense that Shae wasn't fit to bear Tyrion children named Lannister.  In Season 2 or 3 Tyrion told Shae he'd buy her a house in the city and take care of any children she had by him, but Tyrion never suggested or implied that Shae would become Shae Lannister or that any children she bore him would be legitimized.  That's understandable, but Tyrion can't, without being a hypocrite, then turn around and act as if he has some kind of marital rights over Shae.

 

Moreover, going back to Season 1, here is the deal that Tyrion made with Shae

 

Shae: What do you want from me?

 

Tyrion Lannister: What do I want from you? I want you to share my tent. I want you to pour my wine, laugh at my jokes, rub my legs when they're sore after a day's ride. I want you to take no other man to bed as long as we're together. And I want you to fuck me like it's my last night in this world. Which it may well be.

 

There were no longer together once Tyrion had Bronn forcibly remove Shae from Tyrion's chambers and told that she would be put on a ship to Pentos.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Constantinople

[NoWillToResist]

 

Shae didn't betray Tyrion with his father because Tyrion doesn't get a veto over Shae's sexual partners.

 

I get what you're saying, particularly since Shae is an actual whore and her thing with Tywin could have simply been 'business'. However, I think Tyrion's rage at her was due to the perceived dual betrayal of her unnecessarily revealing all manner of very personal stuff while on the witness stand, and now her sleeping with his father (kind of an "of all the people you could fuck, it had to be HIM???).

 

Again, the latter could have been coerced or just business, but Shae did not, IMO, give off that vibe. Perhaps unfairly, I would think that Shae might have behaved differently at being discovered in Tywin's bed by Tyrion had she not actively wanted to be there. From Shae's perspective (limited though it is), she owed Tyrion nothing (except perhaps some payback for the pain he caused her). And that's all well and good, but I think the execution (pun not intended) was poorly done.

 

The audience knows that Tyrion loved Shae and pushed her away in an attempt to try and save her. Yet for bullshit reasons, Shae was too dumb to realize this and turned into the typical 'woman scorned' stereotype, thus my sympathies are more with Tyrion.

 

Should he have just knocked her unconscious so that he could have gone about his business of killing Tywin? Sure. But I can understand that finding Shae in his father's bed was the straw that broke this camel's back and he snapped. Over and over again, his family and the people he loves have fucked him over and/or treated him like shit: his father, his sister, society at large, and now, in a way, Shae.

 

Had his rejection of Shae been handled better, I could find sympathy for her, but IMO, it was handled so hamfistedly and unbelievably, that I cannot scrape together much sympathy for her.  By making her character lose all of her earlier perceptiveness and making her so dumb as to not see what Tyrion was doing by verbally attacking her to get her to leave him, she ceased to be a 'person' to me in that scene where she's hauled off by Bronn; she became a (contrived) plot point.

 

Her being in Tywin's bed was probably the last push that was needed for Tyrion to kill his father. I suspect the details/history are irrelevant. Pawn A was placed in Square Q so that Pawn B would move to Action P. I literally had no emotional reaction to him killing her. That's how thoroughly TPTB had already killed/negated her in my eyes.

Edited June 19, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[ChipBach]

I get what you're saying, particularly since Shae is an actual whore and her thing with Tywin could have simply been 'business'. However, I think Tyrion's rage at her was due to the perceived dual betrayal of her unnecessarily revealing all manner of very personal stuff while on the witness stand, and now her sleeping with his father (kind of an "of all the people you could fuck, it had to be HIM???).

 

Again, the latter could have been coerced or just business, but Shae did not, IMO, give off that vibe. Perhaps unfairly, I would think that Shae might have behaved differently at being discovered in Tywin's bed by Tyrion had she not actively wanted to be there. From Shae's perspective (limited though it is), she owed Tyrion nothing (except perhaps some payback for the pain he caused her). And that's all well and good, but I think the execution (pun not intended) was poorly done.

 

The audience knows that Tyrion loved Shae and pushed her away in an attempt to try and save her. Yet for bullshit reasons, Shae was too dumb to realize this and turned into the typical 'woman scorned' stereotype, thus my sympathies are more with Tyrion.

 

Should he have just knocked her unconscious so that he could have gone about his business of killing Tywin? Sure. But I can understand that finding Shae in his father's bed was the straw that broke this camel's back and he snapped. Over and over again, his family and the people he loves have fucked him over and/or treated him like shit: his father, his sister, society at large, and now, in a way, Shae.

 

Had his rejection of Shae been handled better, I could find sympathy for her, but IMO, it was handled so hamfistedly and unbelievably, that I cannot scrape together much sympathy for her.  By making her character lose all of her earlier perceptiveness and making her so dumb as to not see what Tyrion was doing by verbally attacking her to get her to leave him, she ceased to be a 'person' to me in that scene where she's hauled off by Bronn; she became a (contrived) plot point.

 

Her being in Tywin's bed was probably the last push that was needed for Tyrion to kill his father. I suspect the details/history are irrelevant. Pawn A was placed in Square Q so that Pawn B would move to Action P. I literally had no emotional reaction to him killing her. That's how thoroughly TPTB had already killed/negated her in my eyes.

 

My read on it was that Shae didn't flee KL as Tyrion had put into plan, testified (lied) on behalf of Tywin, and was later found in his bed referring to him with the same pet name she used for Tyrion.  My reaction was that Shea played him and he was furious that she was complicit with his dad.  He did apologize to her after...  ;-) 

[NoWillToResist]

 

My read on it was that Shae didn't flee KL as Tyrion had put into plan, testified (lied) on behalf of Tywin, and was later found in his bed referring to him with the same pet name she used for Tyrion.  My reaction was that Shea played him and he was furious that she was complicit with his dad.

 

Unfortunately, since Tyrion has killed them both, we will probably never know whether Shae made the most of a bad situation (e.g. Tywin nixed her escape and coerced her into cooperating) or she chose to get off the boat and approach Tywin herself (to enact revenge).

 

The fact that Cersei got to Bronn certainly makes me wonder whether Cersei and Tywin tag-teamed Tyrion's two allies and converted them.

[Rocket]

Good one Drogo. I imagine Littlefinger having the special wine and trying to figure out what special sex trick he will teach Sansa tonight when he hears the news. (barf)

 

Those trees were wide spaced with no undergrowth thanks to snow. Yep it messed the formation up a tad but no where bad enough to remove the decisive edge heavy horse has vs barbarian infantry. The extras did not seam to be having any trouble riding around in the close up shots. Poor Wildlings any wood laying on the ground and undergrowth probably was put on their biggest fire ever to make it even easier for the heavy cavalry. 

 

Historical example Ponce de León heavy horse had no problem ridding 8 wide though the Florida forests as the Indians practiced yearly burns and managed forrest practices. Also huge amounts of land were cleared fields for crops so no help from the terrain for the Indians. You can't ride two wide maybe not at all in modern Florida forests. (North America was not a untamed wilderness before the whites came, millions of indians had the land well managed little to none untamed forests, once the illnesses coming up form Mexico whipped out 80% plus of North American Indians then the land got wild before most whites got to the North. note vast majority of Indians prefer that name to Native American) 

 

It was not necessarily retaliation massacres of whites in history the Indians could have started it as most tribes of Indians often massacred, tortured and took sex slaves and children recruits from other tribes before the whites arrived. World wide primitive peoples and great civilizations both raped, stole, tortured, enslaved and killed those they defeated. This being civilized towards captured people is a historical new thing for the most part depending on what the winners intended for the losing population, if they wanted crops and taxes they could be a lot nicer. The only major lie in North American Indians vs Europeans is that the Europeans were more civilized than the Indians in treatment of the losing side both sides were savages. 

[Luckylyn]

Neither Shae or Tyrion had time to think in that moment when they were both surprised to find the other in Tywinn's room.   Shae either assumed Tyrion was there to harm her out of revenge, or she simply hated him for his harsh break up with her.  It could be a combination of both.  So she picked up a knife and at that point Tyrion reacts to protect himself.   He wasn't there with the intention to harm her since he didn't even know she'd be there, and it's possible that if she hadn't picked up the knife things would have gone differently.  She might have been able to talk her way out of the situation.  There just didn't seem to be time for either of them to really consider options and both reacted on instinct to protect themselves.  I think Shae and Tyrion could both claim self-defense in their actions. 

 

The thing that hurts the story for me is that it never made sense that Shae believed Tyrion's harsh words.  Also the way she not only implicated Tyrion but Sansa who never did Shae wrong and Shae claimed to care about was something that didn't fit with what I'd seen before of the character.  Did she care about Tyrion and Sansa at all or was it just a job?  Was she coerced into her testimony and Tywinn's bed or did she make those choices freely not caring about the fact that she was condemning innocent Sansa too?  She became a plot device.   I feel like I was supposed to hate her and root for her death and so any nuance that could have lead up to it was avoided.  I don't mind ambiguity, but I want continuity in character development.

[NoWillToResist]

 

The thing that hurts the story for me is that it never made sense that Shae believed Tyrion's harsh words. /snip/ I don't mind ambiguity, but I want continuity in character development.

 

Yup. Shae had been smart, compassionate, observant, 'street-smart' and savvy before all this. She then turned into a possessive harpy who seemed to forget that Tyrion and Sansa were basically forced into marriage (which wasn't even consummated, so her jealousy was idiotic), and dismissed Cersei and Tywin as dangerous foes.

 

That she couldn't see Tyrion's actions as a last ditch effort to save her life always struck me as OOC. And that's when I stopped giving a shit about her because the writers were clearly willing to sacrifice her characterization to force certain events to unfold.

[Drogo]

 

If you remember from the season 3 finale when Tywin goes to the bathroom it ends up in front of poor Davos' front door.

 

I thought this was just a story that Davos told Gendry while they were pre-Shawshank bonding... Tywin made his poopin' premiere on this finale. 

Edited June 19, 2014 by Drogo

[Philbert]

 

Those trees were wide spaced with no undergrowth thanks to snow. Yep it messed the formation up a tad but no where bad enough to remove the decisive edge heavy horse has vs barbarian infantry. The extras did not seam to be having any trouble riding around in the close up shots. Poor Wildlings any wood laying on the ground and undergrowth probably was put on their biggest fire ever to make it even easier for the heavy cavalry.

 

ITA here. On second viewing it's easy to see that the forest that Mance had his troops in had virtually no undergrowth in it. Whether they cleared the brush for their fires or the Night's Watch had done it doesn't really matter. That terrain makes it difficult to maintain a line of cavalry but not impossible. Granted had there been heavy infantry in there, or had the Wildlings been expecting Stannis, the cavalry would have had a much harder time of it. But Stannis pulled off a total upset here and they never saw him coming, as focused as they were on Jon and The Night's Watch.

[NoWillToResist]

I'm still trying to figure out how no one heard the approach of x thousand horses until they were right on top of the camp...

[Drogo]

 

I'm still trying to figure out how no one heard the approach of x thousand horses until they were right on top of the camp...

 

Bears are very loud sexual partners.

[Rocket]

Snow in part masked the sound. But the people on the outside of the camp I'm sure were aware a lot faster than those in a tent having a key meeting. I also accept a bit of for drama modification to reality as acceptable. Having everyone know a minute or two in advance and having everyone standing around waiting for the charge is boring. 

 

Have to accept Stanus and Davos showing up without helmet at well :P

Edited June 19, 2014 by Rocket

[annsterg]

I am (trying very hard to be) unspoiled so don't want to go hunting for the answer for fear of learning something else I don't want to know...but I very much would like to know if Shae only turned on Tyrion post his nasty dismissal of her (to save her life!) or if she was working for Tywin the entire time. In the brief glimpse of her in Tywin's bed, she sure looked comfortable and secure...and I find it hard to believe Tywin would tolerate her calling him "My Lion" when she had testified she called Tyrion that -- unless Tywin had the nickname FIRST.

 

We all thought (or at least I did) that Tywin found out about the plan to wed Sansa to Loras via Loras's indiscretion with the whore Olyvar but...Shae knew too.

[Lady S.]

This show loves its shocking reveals so I don't know why they wouldn't have indicated Shae was Tywin's all along if that was the case. Nothing I've seen in interviews with the actors has indicated we were supposed to get that. Tywin was deliberately sleeping with his son's lover, he probably got off on showing her who the real lion was. And if Tywin had her since the time of the royal wedding, she had plenty of time to get comfortable with him.

 

We saw Littlefinger set out for Tyrell info on Cersei's orders and Tywin report it as Cersei's finding, if Littlefinger was only involved for misdirection, there's no reason to involve Cersei.

 

Shae is just a badly developed character, I don't think any theories of her being Tywin's spy make the character make any more sense. Especially since Tyrion would be basically leaving the family and their money behind if he went with her to Essos like she wanted. 

[Gudzilla]

 

Having everyone know a minute or two in advance and having everyone standing around waiting for the charge is boring.

This line reminded me of one of my favorite lines from the show Rome. 

" If anyone would like to urinate, now would be the time."

[Hecate7]

Unfortunately, since Tyrion has killed them both, we will probably never know whether Shae made the most of a bad situation (e.g. Tywin nixed her escape and coerced her into cooperating) or she chose to get off the boat and approach Tywin herself (to enact revenge).

 

The fact that Cersei got to Bronn certainly makes me wonder whether Cersei and Tywin tag-teamed Tyrion's two allies and converted them.

 

There is no way on earth Tywin is going to be taking Tyrion's leftovers. Shae being in Tywin's bed after the trial, means she was there before it. At their very first meeting, when they play the game with the candle, Shae calls Tyrion "my lion" as casually as if it's an old habit. I think this is a clue.

 

Shae never got on the boat in the first place. She was two-timing Tyrion with Tywin from the start. At some point she decided she wanted to run off with Tyrion, but he said no, and so she continued to see Tywin. That's how Tywin knew Tyrion hadn't consummated his marriage, and not from some washerwoman. (How much time is he gonna spend down at the river consulting them?)

 

That's why she refused to be discreet--she didn't have to be. She wasn't scared of Tywin. She was never scared of Tywin, even after the Red Wedding. She had every reason to be scared of him, unless of course she was reporting to him anyway. She also claimed that she could handle Littlefinger. If she's really saying with just her little dagger she could take on the most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms next to Tywin Lannister, it's silly. But if she had Tywin backing her up, it suddenly makes a lot of sense.

 

We got little clues throughout the show that Shae was not what she seemed. She told Tyrion to drink, after every single guess he made about her. "You're lowborn." "Drink." She told Sansa she'd been to Dorne, and "met some people in Dorn who were not beautiful and warm." She's been to Volantis. "When I got on a ship in Volantis it looked like that one." I think we saw her juxtaposed with Roz, because like Roz season 3, Shae was a spy first, a whore second. She's unwilling to acknowledge the simiilarity between herself and Roz, because there are multiple levels to it.

 

They play a game with a candle and we see that Shae doesn't mind being burned with a candle--she's immune to pain, or "just used to it," she says. During the scene we learn that she's not lowborn, her mother was not a whore, she did not become a whore out of financial necessity, and she was not abandoned by her father. She keeps their names secret and she really, really did not want to play Tyrion's truth game. All this points to her being far more than an ordinary whore, and suggests that Bronn did not really just find her by chance in the tent of the "ginger cunt two tents down," but rather, that she was sent to Bronn by Tywin, or that Tywin presented her himself and paid Bronn to say he just found her in some guy's tent.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Hecate7

[Conan Troutman]

2. Shae didn't betray Tyrion with his father because Tyrion doesn't get a veto over Shae's sexual partners.

 

I didn't mean it in that way. Tyrion's anger didn't result from the fact that she slept with somebody else, but that it had to be Tywin. It wasn't a betrayal in a sexual context, but that she chose to ally with the man who wanted Tyrion dead because he hated him, even if he didn't believe he killed Joffrey. It would've been the same if she had slept with Cersei.

 

As for the Shae character in general, I haven't read the books, but I heard in various discussions and interviews that in the books, she was a lot less likeable to begin with. So B&W didn't do themself any favors in investing a lot of screen time in her and making her a sympathetic character, when they knew they had to make her betray Tyrion in the end. They tried to pull of another tragic death, but in this instance, they failed because the events that lead her from truely loving Tyrion to betraying him weren't plausible. While I liked her in season two, her ignorance of the reality and constant nagging, faulting him for the arranged marriage he didn't want and didn't even consummate and refusal to go to safety, which lead to Tyrion having only the last option of insulting her away, made her a very grating character in the end. It wasn't so much as tragic as it was no doubt intended to be, instead my sole reaction was "thank god, sh(a)e's gone". Good riddance.

 

Tyrion didn't kill Shae moments after she testified.

 

No, but moments after he found out she was in bed with Tywin.

 

He wasn't there with the intention to harm her since he didn't even know she'd be there, and it's possible that if she hadn't picked up the knife things would have gone differently.  She might have been able to talk her way out of the situation.

 

That's what I got out of it. Both were pretty surprised and Shae, if she had any time to think, should've said "okay, turn around and go, I'm not telling anyone that you're here". I'm sure Tyrion would've done just that.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[Hecate7]

Especially since Tyrion would be basically leaving the family and their money behind if he went with her to Essos like she wanted.

Not necessarily. Tyrion might be able to get some money from Jaime, to have it in the Iron Bank waiting for him when he got there.

 

The proposal of running off together to Essos always struck me as insane, but if Shae is not simply a whore, but a spy from Volantis or Dorne, she may have an quite an income at her disposal already. She certainly acts as if she has one.  She did say at the very beginning that she did not become a whore in order to pay for her travels, or from necessity, which means she did it for some other reason.

 

And I agree that BOTH Tyrion and Shae were acting in self defense. But if Shae had wanted to explain herself, she could have. She reached for the dagger because she didn't have an explanation.

[Rickster]

I'm still trying to figure out how no one heard the approach of x thousand horses until they were right on top of the camp...

 

I'm trying to figure how Stannis got his x thousand horses north of the Wall. All through that small tunnel?

[Conan Troutman]

By boat. Davos brought the pirate guy on board early in the season. I assume he's got a, well, boatload of boats.

[WicketyWack]

It wasn't regicide, but patricide! Well done, Tyrion, you committed a murder that has a name (as there is no whoreicide.) 

 

I already miss Tywin Lannister, That Magnificent Bastard ... his trying to get up off the chamber pot during that entire final scene was hilaaaarious.

 

At least they're killing off some of my least favorites, too (*cough* Shae & Ygritte *cough*)

 

The CGI skeletons reminded me of sped-up stop-motion characters, like Rudolph and Hermey gone berserk.

 

Stick a fork in House Lannister. There's no way Cersei isn't going to f*ck this up.

[Rocket]

 

Stick a fork in House Lannister. There's no way Cersei isn't going to f*ck this up.

From first to worse coming. See Iron Bank, Davos was right and you did the right thing. 

[Constantinople]

This show loves its shocking reveals so I don't know why they wouldn't have indicated Shae was Tywin's all along if that was the case. Nothing I've seen in interviews with the actors has indicated we were supposed to get that. Tywin was deliberately sleeping with his son's lover, he probably got off on showing her who the real lion was. And if Tywin had her since the time of the royal wedding, she had plenty of time to get comfortable with him.

 

We saw Littlefinger set out for Tyrell info on Cersei's orders and Tywin report it as Cersei's finding, if Littlefinger was only involved for misdirection, there's no reason to involve Cersei.

 

Shae is just a badly developed character, I don't think any theories of her being Tywin's spy make the character make any more sense. Especially since Tyrion would be basically leaving the family and their money behind if he went with her to Essos like she wanted.

 

I agree. If Shae were spying for Tywin, I don't see why the show runners would withhold this information from us. They told us Jorah was spying on Daernerys for King Robert; Olyvar was spying on Loras for Littlefinger, and thus, Cersei; Locke was spying for Bolton at Castle Black and beyond the Wall; Jon was spying on the Wildlings for the Night's Watch; Lancel was spying on Cersei for Tyrion; Pycelle was spying on Tyrion for Cersei; Ros spying on Littlefinger for Varys. I don't know why they would suddenly break pattern and not tell us that Shae was spying for Tywin. Especially since, by now, any such reveal couldn't come any earlier than next season, by which time it will be yesterdays news.

I also don't think it's significant that Shae called Tyrion and then Tywin "My Lion". I imagine innumerably whores have called innumerable Lannisters "My Lion" over the years. The Stark soldiers who hung the tavern girls placed a sign on them that said "They lay with lions", so the idea of whore or tavern girl's Lannister clientele being referred to as a lion or my lion isn't particularly original.

Nor do I think Tywin would reject being called "My Lion" by Shae, or reject Shae herself because she did it first with Tyrion. Tywin definitely would get off on proving, in his own mind, who's top dog, as it were.

Though largely derided back when it first aired, I think a little sexposition from Season 1 helps to put this in context.

 

Slowly. You’re not fooling them, they just paid you. They know what you are. They know it’s all just an act. Your job is to make them forget what they know. And that takes time. You need to … ease into it. Well, go ahead. Ease into it. He’s winning you over in spite of yourself. You’re starting to like this. He wants to believe you. He’s enjoyed his cock since he was old enough to play with it, why shouldn't you? He knows he’s better than other men. He’s always known it, deep down inside, now he has proof. He’s so good, he’s reaching something deep inside of you that no one even knew was there. Overcoming your very nature - Littlefinger in S1E7, You Win or You Die

I think that describes Tywin very well, especially as it relates to Tyrion.

[Subrookie]

You'd think it would take every living man left at Castle Black to build a bonfire big enough to burn the two giant's corpses before nightfall. The thought of Mag the Mighty coming back as a wight is pretty frightening. 

 

What did John Snow think they were giving him to drink? It obviously looked like milk, then he says, "that's not wine". No...really? When have you ever seen milk wine? 

 

Count me as someone who's not all that interested in the supernatural storyline about Bran. I've heard people say that it's the most important, but I've enjoyed the past 4 seasons with limited plot about the whitewalkers, wights, etc. I hope if that continues to develop it doesn't overshadow the plot lines I find more interesting like what's going on in Kings Landing, the Erye, Bravos and wherever Tyrion goes. 

 

Hard to understand why Arya would just run around at the Bloody Gate when they could have been fed and had a decent place to sleep. It was her mother's sister's castle and all. 

[NoWillToResist]

 

Hard to understand why Arya would just run around at the Bloody Gate when they could have been fed and had a decent place to sleep. It was her mother's sister's castle and all.

 

Also, she didn't even want to say 'hi' to her cousin? ;)

 

I don't quite understand what's taking the White Walkers so long to reach the wall. They don't need to stop to eat or sleep, so shouldn't they make good time?

[Rocket]

 

I don't quite understand what's taking the White Walkers so long to reach the wall. They don't need to stop to eat or sleep, so shouldn't they make good time?

I assume combination of Winter is not going south of the wall and the old mystical magical beings being erratic in performance because magic is tricky. (author trick similar to speed starships take to get somewhere)

 

 

What did John Snow think they were giving him to drink? It obviously looked like milk, then he says, "that's not wine".

Yep John had a mental drop there sort of, I'm assuming something like fermented mares milk favorite northern barbarian drink in a totally unrelated book I recall.(about Roman legion ported into a fantasy world with only climate in common with GOT)

 

Hard to understand why Arya would just run around at the Bloody Gate when they could have been fed and had a decent place to sleep. It was her mother's sister's castle and all.

 

Hound (and maybe Arya)  might have been worried sort of like Sansa who knows what these people who are not the Aunt will do, maybe turn her over to Lanisters.  Or the gate guards with no ability to confirm identity just sent them away. Never met the cousin so no ability to identify there. Hound defiantly being a softy still dragging Arya along although he might not have had much time to decide what to do in future. 

[Constantinople]

I don't quite understand what's taking the White Walkers so long to reach the wall. They don't need to stop to eat or sleep, so shouldn't they make good time?

 

Qhorrin Halfhalnd and Jon Snow were chatting about Ghost at some point in Season 2 when Qhorrin said something like, "Wild creatures have their own rules, their own reasons, and you'll never know them."  I try to remember that whenever i wonder WTF is up with the White Sloths of the North, i.e., the Walkers.  Sometimes I wonder if the writers put that line to give themselves an out on that score.

 

Also, I'm not sure we know they don't need to stop to eat or sleep.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Also, I'm not sure we know they don't need to stop to eat or sleep.

 

Fair enough. I'm assuming that, since they are reanimated dead, that they don't need to eat. They don't shuffle around all  BRRRAAAAAINS!, so I am not thinking they chow down on dead people. ;)

 

 

the White Sloths of the North

 

*snicker* :D

[joliefaire]

I have the impression the WW haven't yet reached the Wall because they're ... not ready?  And, when they are ready, they will.  From what we saw when the WW delivered the baby to the WW Supreme Council (or whatever they are) in the far, far North, they thrive and flourish in an eternally frozen environment.  And as we've seen south of the Wall, autumn is still there.  King's Landing is still balmy, Bri-Pod and Arya-Sandor were still roaming around in lands where deciduous trees still have green leaves, and presumably The Reach is still growing crops and feeding the populace.  We did see appreciable snow in the mountains of the Eyrie where Sansa built her snow castle, but early snow is common in higher elevations.  Winter hasn't come yet, south of the Wall.  When it does come (I presume starting in Season 5), then the Walkers will, too.

[Patssy Stoned]

already miss Tywin Lannister, That Magnificent Bastard ... his trying to get up off the chamber pot during that entire final scene was hilaaaarious

 

.

Yep.  He was great.

 

I'm a happy camper--my DVDs arrived last night--complete with  map and family trees of various families.  Gonna be a GREAT summer!!

[Kobo Duram]

.

Yep.  He was great.

 

I'm a happy camper--my DVDs arrived last night--complete with  map and family trees of various families.  Gonna be a GREAT summer!!

 

Okay, but remember....

 

Winter is coming.

[Dewey Decimate]

What did John Snow think they were giving him to drink? It obviously looked like milk, then he says, "that's not wine". No...really? When have you ever seen milk wine?

 

 

Oh gods, yes, hilarious!! Though if there were such a thing as milk wine, I'd imagine it pairs nicely with milk steak.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Hard to understand why Arya would just run around at the Bloody Gate when they could have been fed and had a decent place to sleep. It was her mother's sister's castle and all.

Also, she didn't even want to say 'hi' to her cousin? ;)

Heh, maybe she heard what a boob sucking weirdo he is and decided she didn't want him asking her to fly out the moon door. Considering what a shit king Joffrey was even with parental supervision, I wouldn't want to risk being around an unsupervised Lord Robyn!

What did John Snow think they were giving him to drink? It obviously looked like milk, then he says, "that's not wine". No...really? When have you ever seen milk wine?

That scene reminded me of Keifer Sutherland feeding blood disguised as wine to Michael in The Lost Boys so I was thinking, "Don't drink that, Jon! You might turn into a vampire!"

[Lady S.]

Hound (and maybe Arya)  might have been worried sort of like Sansa who knows what these people who are not the Aunt will do, maybe turn her over to Lanisters.  Or the gate guards with no ability to confirm identity just sent them away. Never met the cousin so no ability to identify there. Hound defiantly being a softy still dragging Arya along although he might not have had much time to decide what to do in future. 

Those gate guards really fell down on the job, they had no reaction to hearing that a Stark girl (specifically the one who hasn't been seen since her father's arrest) was at the door out of the blue to see Aunt Lysa, so I take it they just didn't let them in. Either they didn't believe some random peasant looking kid was who The Hound said she was, or Littlefinger's first act on becoming Lord Robin's new protector was to send instructions not to let any more outsiders past the Bloody Gate. I'd say Littlefinger might find Arya's arrival useful info, but for whatever reason, he never did anything with the knowledge that she was in Harrenhal right under Tywin's nose. And since Robin obviously can't identify her and Arya and Sandor had no idea who the adults were running things for him, it probably wasn't a bad idea to just turn back around.

 

I have the impression the WW haven't yet reached the Wall because they're ... not ready?  And, when they are ready, they will.  From what we saw when the WW delivered the baby to the WW Supreme Council (or whatever they are) in the far, far North, they thrive and flourish in an eternally frozen environment.  And as we've seen south of the Wall, autumn is still there.  King's Landing is still balmy, Bri-Pod and Arya-Sandor were still roaming around in lands where deciduous trees still have green leaves, and presumably The Reach is still growing crops and feeding the populace.  We did see appreciable snow in the mountains of the Eyrie where Sansa built her snow castle, but early snow is common in higher elevations.  Winter hasn't come yet, south of the Wall.  When it does come (I presume starting in Season 5), then the Walkers will, too.

IA, we have very little idea what the WW agenda is, so I'm willing to handwave completely their travel logistics. It seems like they only bring a drop in temperature in their immediate vicinity, so maybe they do need to wait for true winter to happen everywhere else. And maybe they were hoping the wildings would leave an opening for them if they breached the wall and killed what was left of the crows. 

Edited June 20, 2014 by Lady S.

[dramachick]

 I'd say Littlefinger might find Arya's arrival useful info, but for whatever reason, he never did anything with the knowledge that she was in Harrenhal right under Tywin's nose.

 

I don't remember Littlefinger recognizing Arya.  Which episode was this?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When he visited Tywin and Arya was Tywin's cup bearer.

[Constantinople]

What did John Snow think they were giving him to drink? It obviously looked like milk...

 

Piña colada?

[MrWhyt]

 

When he visited Tywin and Arya was Tywin's cup bearer.

He saw her, we never got any evidence that he recognized her.

[dramachick]

He saw her, we never got any evidence that he recognized her.

 

That's what I thought.  If Littlefinger had recognized Arya, he would have said so and would have used the information in some way to control Sansa.

[Subrookie]

Piña colada?

That isn't a, "proper northern drink".

[ShannaB]

And so, Arya is on her way to Braavos to become........Lorne Malvo.

[Lady S.]

That's what I thought.  If Littlefinger had recognized Arya, he would have said so and would have used the information in some way to control Sansa.

It's weird he never sold her back to the Lannisters, but he did use Arya's name to manipulate Sansa. He told Sansa in 3.01 that he'd seen her mother and her sister ("Arya's alive?!"), and I think that revelation was part of what made her more receptive to his help than when he first approached her in 2.10. So I've been wondering if that meant he did recognize Arya, since his actually seeing Cat should have been a good enough way to tempt Sansa. I wonder if Sansa thought he meant Arya had already reunited with their mother, in which case she'd assume Arya was killed in the Red Wedding too. It annoys me that the show never followed up on that, like how Arya and Sansa should know by now that their little brothers are presumed dead, but that's never addressed either--based on this ep, Arya knows Winterfell was sacked so Bran and Rickon probably being killed is an easy conclusion, and Sansa knew from her pre-wedding chat with Marg that her hypothetical-Lannister son was meant to inherit Winterfell, and as ignorant as s3 Sansa sometimes was, she would have to understand that Bran and Rickon had to be out of the way for her claim to really matter. 

[Drogo]

 

What did John Snow think they were giving him to drink? It obviously looked like milk...

 

Egg nog is always a festive Northern choice for guests.  

 

Bonus:  You can serve it in mugs that resemble albino Tormunds.  

 

Edited June 22, 2014 by Drogo

[Hecate7]

Actually, there is a such thing as milk wine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumis

It's called kumis, and it's made from mare's milk. It's like a much stronger, more alcoholic version of kefir. Distilled further, it becomes arkhi, a vodka-like drink. They drink it in Russia and Mongolia.

[Lady S.]

Sibel Kekilli was interviewed by TvLine, and she mentions talking to D&D about her character's death, and I think they would have let her know if Shae was Tywin's from the start. From what other actors have said, they're not stingy with background information a character would know about themselves. Yeah, maybe this is all a big conspiracy where Sibel lies to us or D&D lie to her, because the show is saving the real reveal for later, but what is the dramatic value of that? Shae and Tywin are dead, the only 3rd party who could possibly have found out about their association is Varys, and yes, he's traveling with Tyrion now but how does his knowing square with the scene with Shae in 3.10? Wouldn't it work much better dramatically to give Shae more significant dialogue than "My Lion" and let Tyrion figure it out and confront Tywin about that before killing him? What is the alternative? Varys saying  "Funny story, I recently found out Shae was a spy for your father from the first. It's a shame your killing him ruined my gig, but don't feel too bad, that guy was a major dick." Btw, Sibel also calls Shae lowborn several times in the interview, despite Shae implying otherwise in that important 1.09 drinking game, so seems that was just another dropped plot point/retcon rather a piece of an intricate puzzle over all 4 seasons.

 

For what it's worth

(On getting dumped by Tyrion) And so, as we say in German, it was “the last drop in the glass” when he tells her, “You are a whore. You can’t bear my children.” He stepped over the line. She was so loyal. ...She got hurt — and at a certain point, you don’t think anymore, you just react emotionally. .... at the end she’s a low-born, so when he says, “You’re a whore, go away, I don’t want you here,” she’s essentially left to be what she was before she met Tyrion — a prostitute.

 

(On testifying at his trial) I try to understand why she’s behaving like that. She got hurt very much, and all her hopes just disappeared into the wind. Like an earthquake, the foundation she was building on their relationship was just broken. And at that moment, it was revenge, and I really understood that. .... And did she have a choice, anyway? If Cersei wants something, if Tywin wants something, she’s a woman without family, she’s on her own. She didn’t have a real choice to say, “No, I’m not going to this trial.” It was revenge, but it was also blackmail and coercion. .... Cersei or Tywin would’ve said, “We found you. You have no choice. Testify or die.”

 

(On staying on as Tywin's secret bedwarmer) Oh God. [sighs] When I act, I try not to think like Sibel. I try to think like Shae. But, again, she didn’t have any choice after the trial scene. The people hated Tyrion after the trial, and she had been with him. Who could she be with after that? .... and she says “My Lion.” That expression was for Tyrion only. He was her lion. But because she’s a prostitute again, she’s lost all hope for a regular life, she’s trying to get rid of everything that reminds her of Tyrion — to make nothing special of what they had. 

 

 

I feel like the big issue with Shae is that they felt she needed to be shown caring about Tyrion so that his falling for her wouldn't make him look like a shallow dope, but sometimes, that was laid on too thick just to make her later testimony more shocking and the breakdown of their relationship more tragic. The progression from well-paid concubine to loving but jealous girlfriend wasn't developed very well. The other problem was that they over-relied on making her bold and plucky. The stupidest part of their break-up scene wasn't Shae believing Tyrion's insults, but Shae saying she and Tyrion could just fight for their love. This fits with someone in here's characterization of her as a danger junkie, but I doubt that was intentional.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Lady S.

[Hecate7]

Yes, even the actress seems to have forgotten she ever said those things. I saw that she called Shae lowborn once, yes. So maybe in her mind Shae was lying to Tyrion in that scene, just to be ornery. Either there will be a payoff to that scene, and other moments, or it's just bad sloppy writing that the conversations from season one come to nothing, and Shae's weird behavior season 3 & 4 means nothing.

 

If she was coerced, why not say so, instead of grabbing a knife and trying to kill him? On another recent show, an actor played his part very well, without knowing that his character had committed a murder. As spoiler-sensitive as GOT people are, esp the Unsullied, it actually does make sense not to tell actors everything. Some of them, like Osha, have no idea whether their characters are alive or dead or ever coming back or just gone, or what.

 

I still think it's telling that she has wasted no tears on Tyrion, even on the eve of his death. She's still one of my favorite characters.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Hecate7

[Lady S.]

As spoiler-sensitive as GOT people are, esp the Unsullied, it actually does make sense not to tell actors everything. Some of them, like Osha, have no idea whether their characters are alive or dead or ever coming back or just gone, or what.

Hence why I used the words background information, a character doesn't know their own future but they know who they're sleeping with. Iwan Rheon wasn't allowed to disclose his character's name until after 3.10 aired but he always knew Ramsay's story. Some actors don't know when/if they will return (see Joe Dempsie's still rowin' tweet), but there's no hint of any of them not knowing vital facts the characters would know about themselves. The "mystery" of Shae is sloppy writing, pure and simple, plenty of other areas of the show suffer from that and plenty of plot points were dropped/retconned after s1. That's much more likely than a puzzle more convoluted than a Littlefinger scheme, on a show that is just not that tightly plotted.

[Higgins]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

1. Tyrion didn't kill Shae moments after she testified.  Tyrion knows his sister well enough to know that Cersei almost certainly didn't give Shae a choice about whether to testify, and Tyrion has had plenty of time to reflect on this.  Cersei may have thrown some money Shae's way to sweeten the deal, but fundamentally Shae's "choice" was to either to testify against Tyrion or become dog chow.

 

2. Shae didn't betray Tyrion with his father because Tyrion doesn't get a veto over Shae's sexual partners.

 

When Tyrion insulted Shae to get her to leave King's Landing, he told her that Sansa was fit to bear his children, and Shae was not.  The thing is, Tyrion meant it, at least in the sense that Shae wasn't fit to bear Tyrion children named Lannister.  In Season 2 or 3 Tyrion told Shae he'd buy her a house in the city and take care of any children she had by him, but Tyrion never suggested or implied that Shae would become Shae Lannister or that any children she bore him would be legitimized.  That's understandable, but Tyrion can't, without being a hypocrite, then turn around and act as if he has some kind of marital rights over Shae.

 

Moreover, going back to Season 1, here is the deal that Tyrion made with Shae

 

 

There were no longer together once Tyrion had Bronn forcibly remove Shae from Tyrion's chambers and told that she would be put on a ship to Pentos.

BUT....you can't take Tyrion's statement and action out of the context of the society either. She wasn't fit to bear his children.

[Rocket]

Right now they seam to have dropped the ball on Shae with the drinking game unexplained. 

[Hecate7]

So many questions. Why didn't Brienne show the Hound the bread? Why did the Hound first assume Brienne was an enemy, then say, "go with her?" I guess he didn't volunteer to accompany Brienne because of the bounty on his head. That part is understandable. Brienne having a Lannister sword meant she was bound to turn the Hound in for a reward, even if she was in good faith protecting Arya.

 

Why didn't Arya go with Brienne? I guess that Lannister sword really spooked her.

 

Why didn't she kill The Hound like he asked? I don't think it was at all out of character for him to plead for death, considering how badly he was wounded and how much pain he must have been in. We have seen that he considered it humane to stab the old farmer through the heart--that was the setup for his own death scene.

 

Did Tywin convince Shae that Tyrion was a murdering liar? Did Shae think that her testimony was the truth? Is that why she reached for a knife, rather than trying to explain or pleading that she'd been coerced? Did she transfer her feelings to Tywin?

 

Well, it might be crap writing, or it might not. I don't take an actor's word as gospel, especially when, no offense to Sibel Kikelli, English is not their first language and they probably are just reading their scenes at face value without worrying about the bigger picture. When you have an actor who is already doing a great job with their role without a lot of backstory or extra information, why load them down with that junk when it's going to be up to other people to do that reveal? On The Americans,

the boy who kiilled his parents didn't know his character had killed them--he played finding their bodies, being traumatized by it, and an entire season of aftermath, and only discovered that he himself was the killer when he read the script to the last episode, where his character confesses. In every interview he'd have talked about his character as being this traumatized innocent youth.

(It's not a spoiler for this show, but just in case you haven't watched that season, I hid it).

 

 

Iwan Rheon wasn't allowed to disclose his character's name until after 3.10 aired but he always knew Ramsay's story. Some actors don't know when/if they will return (see Joe Dempsie's still rowin' tweet), but there's no hint of any of them not knowing vital facts the characters would know about themselves. The "mystery" of Shae is sloppy writing, pure and simple, plenty of other areas of the show suffer from that and plenty of plot points were dropped/retconned after s1. That's much more likely than a puzzle more convoluted than a Littlefinger scheme, on a show that is just not that tightly plotted.

Yes, the show is riddled with dropped plot points and bad writing, that seems to get lazier and worse each season, as that good old Hollywood "it doesn't matter, the audience isn't paying that much attention---who cares what color Shireen Baratheon's hair color is or why Tyrion really killed Shae or what is going on next to Joffrey's coffin as long as everyone looks sexy and sells what they're doing? People are stupid and don't remember the names of most of the characters anyway" philosophy gains more and more power over the writers and runners of the show.

 

It could be that the writers just suck. However, this is a story that had Littlefinger's plot to murder Joffrey, Roose Bolton's plot to take over the North that culminated in the Red Wedding, an organization of shape-shifting assassins, and a castle crawling with spies like Ollyvar and Roz, Varys "little birds," Littlefinger's whores and septas, etc....Dismissing a story because it requires a character like Tywin, Littlefinger, or Varys to know someone's secrets, predict outcomes of various manipulative ploys, or risk the lives of other characters, is a bit pat for this type of narrative. Look at Jorah and Danaerys. Look at Locke at the Wall. If Locke had simply appeared at the Wall, and we hadn't known Bolton sent him to find and kill all the Stark boys including Snow, wouldn't that have seemed a far-fetched theory? Especially when he seemed so supportive of Snow and volunteered for that dangerous mission? For every Locke we know about, I promise you there are probably six or seven Lockes we don't know about. For every plot of Littlefinger's that he outlines for us in detail, there is a plot of Varys' or Tywin's that we aren't hearing a single word about, and probably two or three of Littlefinger's that we're not being shown.

 

That is what these characters do. They take fake names, they have false motives, they lie. And not every actor is going to be told anything about his character that he doesn't absolutely, positively need to know, in order to act his scenes.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Hecate7