The Not So Merry...Supporting Cast

[AyChihuahua]

Isabel deliberately waltzing out of Oliver's hotel room with her dress only half on so that Felicity was told that she had been having sex with Oliver, and then telling Felicity she can take the night off because Oliver's needs had been met? Pure Bitch.

People really missed the most important part of that scene, which is that Isabel was, obviously, a speedster like Barry. She was in her camisole/slip lounging post-coitally, then when Felicity showed up eight seconds later she swanned out with her shoes and dress on, if not fully zipped. Speedster!

[kismet]

I enjoyed Isabel, but I think her character was definitely shifted quickly into bitch/villain. They might have not had known whether she was going to be good or bad when they initially introduced her, but they decided she was gonna be b/v pretty quick on. And unlike, Moira she didn't have the luxury to have her character change over seasons. So once they made her one way that was where she was gonna stick.

 

I will say that for a as strong & alpha male Oliver Queen can be. He pretty much has proven time after time that he can be pretty easily lead & manipulated (for good & bad) by the females around him. Isabel was just one more female that showed how easy it is to get him to do certain things. Basically every woman in OQ's life can influence him on the drop of a dime to do something, he really does seem easily whipped. And its not just through sex, he just seems to bend so easily to female persuasion. Starting from his mother down to Felicity and every female in between, he just doesn't seem to put up as many defenses against female offensive attacks. Perhaps that's why he put MM in charge instead of Nyssa.

 

I didn't necessarily mind that he slept with Isabel, for starters I think it had to do with him both consciously & subconsciously trying to get over or push through his developing feelings for Felicity. Plus Isabel was attractive, so casually sleeping with attractive females is something that I would expect OQ to do without much thought. What really irked me though was why he brought her back to his room? I know he didn't have top secret stuff there, but still she is the quasi-enemy - you don't let her on your turf. I still remember that scene between Sark & the newer agent on the final season of Alias, where there was a push/pull between your room vs. my room. In a hook-up situation, there is a power play in choosing a room, esp when its your co-worker & not just some rando at a bar. I mean seriously, I can't figure out what he was thinking. Clearly, Isabel was able to easily manipulate him into using his room. Which sorta indicated that she had more power in the dynamic, because she can leave at any time. Whereas he had to ask her to leave or allow her to lounge around in his room. It was such a mind-boggling choice.

Edited August 3, 2015 by kismet

[wingster55]

I would have to rewatch the talk at the Christmas party...but the rest..

It just seems like Felicity had the problem with her..maybe telling Oliver of the rumors wasn't the most professional thing..but hardly evil. Walking out of the room still getting things on..coincidence Felicity was there.

Basically she was rude to Felicity at times...but that's not a heinous crime. 

[apinknightmare]

Uh...she planned a hostile takeover of Oliver's company, and planned on firing most of the employees - of which Felicity was one. Then she did an about face and decided to be equal partners with Oliver - the guy who's company she wanted to take over in a hostile manner...is there some reason why Felicity shouldn't have been wary of her?

Edited August 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

I will say that for as strong & alpha male Oliver Queen can be. He pretty much has proven time after time that he can be pretty easily lead & manipulated (for good & bad) by the females around him. Isabel was just one more female that showed how easy it is to get him to do certain things.

He certainly seems to have been very stupid around Isabel. But what bothered me more, although the stupidity should have been enough, is that he slept with Isabel after she insulted Felicity. Did he feel no loyalty to Felicity?  He was working his playboy persona so okay, sleep around if he wants, but not withsomeone who treated his good friend so badly.  Someone who treats another person like that, much less someone I care about, I wouldn't socialize with unless I was wearing full armour.

 

All that was made worse by the fact that Moira had warned him against Isabel and he appears to have ignored her.  Not to mention that Isabel had already tried to take his company and fire the employees.  Oliver was almost as much of an idiot around her as he was around Malcolm in s3.

 

It just seems like Felicity had the problem with her..maybe telling Oliver of the rumors wasn't the most professional thing..but hardly evil. Walking out of the room still getting things on..coincidence Felicity was thereBasically she was rude to Felicity at times...but that's not a heinous crime. 

As she left Oliver's hotel room, with her dress deliberately unzipped so Felicity would absolutely know what they had been doing (a person having professionally or with basic manners would have waitied till Felicity had gone before exiting or at least been completely dressed), Isabel said that Felicity could take the night off because she had met Oliver's needs.  She outright called Felicity Oliver's whore in front of him.  The definition of "heinous" is hateful; odious; abominable; totally reprehensible so I'd say ,yes, calling someone you work with, an underling who has never treated you with anything but respect, the boss's whore in front of him is heinous.   

 

The only people Isabel interacted with were Oliver, Felicity and Moira.  Moira warned Oliver about her and told him to stay away; Felicity told him she didn't trust Isabel and didn't want to have to spend time with her.  I think part of his actions were to show how clueless he is around women, but sleeping with Isabel at that point reminded me of s3 when Ray spend months telling Felicity he trusted her opinions, and then when she told him Oliver wasn't the one killing people, he told her that her opinions couldn't be believed because her feelings were involved.  In both cases, the men paid lip service until a time when they disagreed with her, and then they ignored what she said.

Edited August 3, 2015 by statsgirl

[wingster55]

Uh...she planned a hostile takeover of Oliver's company, and planned on firing most of the employees - of which Felicity was one. Then she did an about face and decided to be equal partners with Oliver - the guy who's company she wanted to take over in a hostile manner...is there some reason why Felicity shouldn't have been wary of her?

 

I didn't say that. I said that her treatment/attitude of Felicity doesn't make her evil/a bad guy as the show tried to paint.

Teaming with Slade? Sure

[BkWurm1]

I didn't say that. I said that her treatment/attitude of Felicity doesn't make her evil/a bad guy as the show tried to paint.

Teaming with Slade? Sure

If I'd experienced or knew of such behavior in real life, she most certainly would have made my enemies list.  Evil?  Unknown, but Felicity would have known enough not to turn her back on the woman. 

[Ceylon5]

Isabel being bitchy about Felicity supposedly sleeping with her boss was massively hypocritical, given that she used to sleep with her (married) boss herself.  The only reason she was there at all was to take revenge on Robert's family since he chose them over her.  And she succeeded - taking not only their company, but also (inexplicably) all their money too.  

 

They never explained why Isabel developed such an antipathy for Felicity right off the bat, but it was fairly obvious she had it in for her and Felicity was smart to be wary of her, both on a professional and a personal level.  When someone just hates you for no apparent reason, it makes sense to watch your back around them.  Maybe they're just being unpleasant and unprofessional, or maybe they're up to no good and you're in their way.  Either way, it's not great, especially when you're keeping the kind of secrets Felicity is keeping.  And Isabel did end up taking her job and trying to kill her, so she was completely right to not trust her!

[EmilyBettFan]

Let's not forget basically declaring twice she wanted Felicity dead. One time after Moira's funeral and then the other time where she's fighting Diggle and Felicity hits her with the van.

[apinknightmare]

I didn't say that. I said that her treatment/attitude of Felicity doesn't make her evil/a bad guy as the show tried to paint.

Teaming with Slade? Sure

 

When did the show paint that she was evil/a bad guy specifically for the way she treated Felicity? 

 

They were two women who didn't like each other - they spelled out the reasons why Felicity didn't like her in the very first episode, and followed through with her being uncomfortable around Isabel. They showed Isabel being kind of a bitch to her (mainly in 2x06), and making snide comments about the office rumors and Felicity's clothing choices to show that Isabel didn't think much of Felicity, either, but nothing in-show ever suggested that we shouldn't like Isabel just because Felicity didn't.

 

The fact that she tried to take over Oliver's company was reason enough for that.

Edited August 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

The show has used both Felicity and Diggle as barometers for how the audience should react to, and feel about other characters over and over and over. And then they did it some more. The point is not that what Felicity thinks of Isabel makes Isabel evil. The point is the show has repeatedly told us to trust Felicity's judgement [and Diggle's judgement], so I guess the problem here is -- if you don't trust Felicity's judgement, you're ignoring that the text of the show is telling you that you should.

[GreatAtBoats]

And yet when Felicity is used to tell the audience to like Ray or Laurel as BC, or that Laurel has a light that Sara didn't, many viewers ignored that and were downright disgusted by it.

[apinknightmare]

And yet when Felicity is used to tell the audience to like Ray or Laurel as BC, or that Laurel has a light that Sara didn't, many viewers ignored that and were downright disgusted by it.

Most people I saw responded to those things by questioning Felicity's judgment, which was dancincnancy's point? We've been shown time and again that were supposed to trust her, but she mooned over Ray without calling him out on his shitty behavior, and put Sara down in order to make Laurel feel better about herself-both things that are unlike her.

Edited August 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[doesntworkonwood]

Most people I saw responded to those things by questioning Felicity's judgment, which was dancincnancy's point? We've been shown time and again that were supposed to trust her, but she mooned over Ray without calling him out on his shitty behavior, and put Sara down in order to make Laurel feel better about herself-both things that are unlike her.

 

Also, Felicity's initial feelings toward Ray were not positive. The fact that she mentioned he was stalking her wouldn't put Ray in a positive light. Fans of Felicity were already predisposed to not liking Ray in the very first episode because Felicity spoke negatively on his behaviour. When she changed her mind, fans wouldn't automatically change theirs because they'd already formed an opinion influenced by Felicity and their own feelings on Ray's behaviour. 

 

And the show had already been going on two and a half seasons, so fans had already formed their opinions of Laurel. One line by Felicity wasn't really going to change that, particularly by people on either side of the fence i.e. People who strongly disliked Laurel, or people who strongly liked Laurel. 

 

Of the two, I think only Ray and Isobel are similar, and Felicity reacted negatively initially to both of those characters. And she did it for very warranted reasons. Whilst Ray's takeover of QC was less hostile than Isobel's, Ray did essentially harass Felicity so that she had to resort to hacking into his computer just so that he would leave her alone. Isobel was threatening not only Felicity's job, but also the jobs of so many people. 

[Happy Harpy]

And yet when Felicity is used to tell the audience to like Ray or Laurel as BC, or that Laurel has a light that Sara didn't, many viewers ignored that and were downright disgusted by it.

And it warmed my heart that many of my fellow viewers didn't do as "told" when they weren't "showed" :D

 

Oh, and Moira dropped a ton of anvils about not liking Isabel, for reasons. When Felicity+Moira who in a way are two poles of a spectrum don't "feel" someone, chances are high that the writing will make them right imo.

 

I was glad when they made Isabel 100% a bad guy. The bitch with the heart of gold isn't a fave trope of mine, to say the least. 

I believe that she hated Felicity at first sight the way a certain category of bitter people hate positive/warm people. They hate the world because they had/think they had a shitty life and take it out on innocent or happy-looking people, who don't have the good grace to be as negative as them.

[dtissagirl]

And yet when Felicity is used to tell the audience to like Ray or Laurel as BC, or that Laurel has a light that Sara didn't, many viewers ignored that and were downright disgusted by it.

 

My point still stands: they use Felicity's [and Diggle's] reactions to the other characters to tell the audience how to feel about those folks. The endgame here being they hope the majority of those watching agree with Felicity's judgement. Sometimes it backfires, sure. But at the end of S3, Felicity was confirmed in text to be right about Palmer and Laurel. Palmer ended up the season being considered by the story to be a magnanimous super generous nice guy; Laurel ended up the season being regarded by Oliver as a true blue vigilante/hero.

 

Same as the text confirmed that Felicity was right about Isabel in S2.

[quarks]

I think we're talking about two separate things here, though:

 

1. How the writers and the script use Felicity and Diggle

 

2. How the audience reacts to this use of Felicity and Diggle

 

The first can be controlled; the second can't. The script can tell us all kinds of things through Felicity and Diggle (or any other character), and use various other techniques to manipulate the audience reaction - lighting, musical cues, editing cuts, choosing which of several takes/character reactions to use (Arrow usually has the actors run through scenes with different emotional reactions and then chooses whichever one seems most effective) and so on.  None of this means that the audience will believe any of it.  

 

Felicity and Diggle aren't always right about people - Felicity was wrong about Cooper, Diggle was wrong about his former Army buddy back in season one - but in general, the script expects us to agree with their judgement.

 

Going back to Isabel and Ray specifically: first, with the exception of Walter, Ray and Oliver, Arrow tends to have its business executive characters turn out to be evil or at best grey. And notably, the three exceptions ended up either kidnapped and removed from the action (Walter) or completely distracted from running their companies because they want to chase bad guys instead (Ray and Oliver). So the audience was more or less prepped to have Isabel and Ray turn out to be evil regardless of what Felicity thought about them - just because the two of them were business executives.  Felicity then reinforced this thought with Isabel ("SHE'S GOING TO FIRE EVERYONE! IT'S SO AWFUL, I'M JUMPING OUT OF A PLANE, THROWING UP, AND TRYING TO DRINK COCONUTS JUST TO STOP THIS although hey, sweaty shirtless man on top of me maybe this isn't so bad" and countered it with Ray ("Damn it, we need a reason to keep using this QC set, so let's have Felicity go work for a guy she called a stalker in script! That will go over well!  Hmm! Maybe we should do something really spectacular to divert attention away from this. Do we need Sara for any upcoming plots or can we use Nyssa instead?")

 

That said, the showrunners later said that when season two started, they were still considering either Sara or Isabel turn into Ravager, which explains the ambiguous way both were introduced: unclear motivations, evil backgrounds (Isabel's history of terminating employees and gutting companies; Sara's history of participating in medical experiments on humans), combined with positives - Sara rescuing women, Isabel, post getting outmaneuvered by Oliver and Walter, turning out to be a hard working executive who initially helped turn around QC, did visit the Russian holdings, and who at least claimed to be making sure that Oliver wasn't just wasting QC resources on weekend getaways with an assistant who wore short skirts, giving the show some leeway to reveal her as grey - more or less what Arrow did in the first season with Moira.  But the script also had Diggle and Felicity flying all the way over to Evil Island and jumping off a plane (without making sure they had a way to get back, great thinking there everybody) just to stop Isabel and to ensure that the 30,000 QC employees would keep their jobs, while also having Felicity approve of Sara's going after guys who attacked women - before Felicity and Sara even met.  End result: Sara was revealed as the morally ambiguous hero who helped save Starling City, and Isabel was revealed as the thoroughly evil villain who took Oliver's company away from him and almost destroyed the city.

[AyChihuahua]

You know, Walter is quite possibly the very best person on the show.  Not only was he a good and faithful husband to Moira, he was a good and honest businessman.  In 1.9, he was one of the first of the 1% to note that "The Hood" was doing good things in the city (the dinner scene).  He was a faithful friend to Robert and a wonderful stepfather to Thea.  He was kind and patient with Oliver, he vowed vengeance on those who'd killed Robert, he didn't break under interrogation (if nothing else he could have given up Felicity as having possession of the other copy of the book), and he had the strength to divorce Moira after he'd discovered what she'd done.  Even after everything with Moira, he still helped Oliver save the family company, and he called Thea, presumably offering her a place to live and/or funds, after the Queens lost everything.  I really wish they'd get him back on the show; he would be a great role model for Oliver and Thea.

[dtissagirl]

The funny thing is in season two, I had no doubt whatsoever that they initially presented both Sara and Isabel as ambiguous. I understood perfectly that I was supposed to ~wonder~ about them at first. But I also sort of knew that I should trust Felicity's assessment of them from the start. I guess I just assumed that they were using Felicity as barometer, and it turned out I was right -- they were.

 

But the way they presented Palmer in S3 is still making me go BZUHHH?, even after 23 episodes of them telling me that he is a really nice guy, for serious, all the mansplaining was purely accidental. Because I can't tell if they wanted me to think "ambiguity" when they went with the stalker thing, or if they just thought it was a funny set up for the porcupine farts payback. My instinct here is to think these writers just think stalker jokes are funny, because there is precedent: the stalker lacrosse player Felicity mentioned in S2 was also meant to be a joke. So I didn't start out thinking "ambiguity", I started out thinking "doucheface asshat creeper", which lead to cognitive dissonance, when it turned out they weren't trying to sell him like that. BZUHHHH.

 

Of course, there's also my gratuitous bias going on here -- I adore Summer Glau to embarrassing levels of watching Hallmark movies and Big Bang Theory episodes for her [which is the lowest low I can go for an actor, tbh], and I liked Caity Lotz as Sara from the start. Otoh, I've thought Brandon Routh is one of the worst actors on the entire planet for a decade now, and Arrow didn't help one bit in changing my mind.

Edited August 3, 2015 by dancingnancy

[AyChihuahua]

I think they just totally screwed up Ray.  I think they wanted a tiny bit of ambiguity, especially the borderline sinister look during closeup when he was looking at the ATOM plans.  But I think all the stalker stuff was supposed to be funny, and I don't think they had a clue that were writing him as a serious creeper v. a nice guy (not Nice Guy TM) with some social issues.  I also don't think they meant to make him a condescending misogynistic jackass in 3.17, but oh, they SO did.  (I also agree with you that Brandon Routh did not help, and if anything made the writing look even worse.)

 

The difference, for me, between my hate for Ray and my current hate for Oliver is that I hated Ray from the beginning when he tricked Felicity (and he knew who she was at that time) into helping him hack QC to take over the company.  Taking over a company, fine.  Hacking, well, I can't hate that since I love Felicity, although she does it to fight crime.  But tricking her into helping take over the company she used to work for, from the man Ray knew she worked with closely, was disgusting.  And the writing there was SO STUPID, because they could have gotten to the exact same place without portraying their wannabe-spinoff-hero as a douchebag from moment 1.  So I hated him pretty much instantly and I have no prior love to fall back on when they finally mostly stopped writing him as a creepy douchebag (only mostly, because signing over the company to Felicity without discussing it with her was controlling and vaguely creepy); whereas if they start writing Oliver well again I'm sure I'll forgive him and love him again (although I will never forget his S3 actions...but I'm sure the show will), because I loved him before.

[quarks]

There's also the ongoing oddness of bringing in a character clearly intended for a spinoff, and then having him be, not so much an alternative Oliver, or a better Oliver, or an Oliver in a robot suit, but a character who takes Oliver's company and then his girl, while Oliver is off climbing cliffs barehanded and then falling off them in order to save his sister.

 

They did have the sense to give him a tragic backstory, but the problem with that is that everyone on Arrow, with the exception so far of Amanda Waller, and I'm sure that will be changing in season four, has a tragic backstory. Everyone. So that can only create so much sympathy.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. Forever baffled by the characterization choices they made for Palmer. They gave him the Iron Man suit, but what they really should have given him was Tony Stark's personality.

Edited August 3, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Chaser]

You also had the problem of the people reacting 'wrong' to him. You write a character that is social awdward and has a personal boundaries issue. Okay, Sure. But make sure that the character opposite them is reacting appropriately. With the exception of Felicity commenting on the over the topness of Ray renting out the whole establishment on The Flash and Felicity legit calling him stalker (which was then swept under the rug), everything was deemed acceptable behavior.

 

He would have gone over so much better if Felicity was acting like Felicity around him. Then you could have had conversation about him not always reading social ques properly and overstepping his boundaries. You could allow the audience to understand him better.

[AyChihuahua]

They did have the sense to give him a tragic backstory, but the problem with that is that everyone on Arrow, with the exception so far of Amanda Waller, and I'm sure that will be changing in season four, has a tragic backstory. Everyone. So that can only create so much sympathy.

Felicity's chair in the Arrow cave has a frigging tragic backstory.

[kismet]

Ray as a character was mishandled throughout his Arrow run which is why I really want him off the show asap. He needs to get to LoT and start over. He's just sucking up time on Arrow & distracting the characters from being part of the Arrow story. It's just a waste of script & budget money.

I appreciated some of the ambiguity of Moira, Isabel, Helena & some of the other characters because I think it adds another dimension to the show that characters can be grey or can be perceived one way but the truth is somewhere in the middle. Or in the case of Isabel, the audience listening to Moira & Felicity knew she was not to be trusted.

I also liked that Isabel was straight up bitch. But also she told the audience what QC was saying about FS & OQ. FS did wear short skirt thatz just the truth. Granted the way Isabel talked about it was not nice or professional. But her talking about F&O being more than friends informed the audience that their connection was deepening & becoming obvious to those around them even if they were oblivious to themselves. FS & Dig are barometers for the audience, but in many ways Isabel & some of the other villains are mirrors for the audience showing us what the script/show does not have time to tell.

[Happy Harpy]

You know, Walter is quite possibly the very best person on the show.

I love Walter. I actually squeed in the S2 opener, when he showed up. It's one of my favorite Hell Yeah! moments of the whole show.

I miss Walter.

[kismet]

It would be wonderful for Walter to come back!! I would love to have him help Felicity through her transition to leader of the company. I do feel like she needs some mentoring and he would be fabulous at that.

[AyChihuahua]

You also had the problem of the people reacting 'wrong' to him. You write a character that is social awdward and has a personal boundaries issue. Okay, Sure. But make sure that the character opposite them is reacting appropriately. With the exception of Felicity commenting on the over the topness of Ray renting out the whole establishment on The Flash and Felicity legit calling him stalker (which was then swept under the rug), everything was deemed acceptable behavior.

 

He would have gone over so much better if Felicity was acting like Felicity around him. Then you could have had conversation about him not always reading social ques properly and overstepping his boundaries. You could allow the audience to understand him better.

I think they couldn't have Felicity, at least, react to him the way she would have in prior seasons, because then they never could have dated or even really interacted.  S2 Felicity would not have gone to work for him, she wouldn't have gone on the bribe-date, she wouldn't have chatted with him when he barged into her apartment, etc.  She pretty much would have told him, in funnier terms, to screw off.  There was NO ONE ELSE in the history of the show whose crap she put up with, just Ray.  She spilled truth tea to Digg in S1.  She stood up to Mirakuru'd Roy in S2.  She told Oliver to get his head out of his ass in S1 and S2 and pretty continuously verbally bitch-slapped him throughout S3.  She stood up to Moira in S2.  She threatened and insulted Malcolm in S3.  She threatened and stood up to Ra's in S3.  The only person whose crap she did not call out was Ray.  It makes NO SENSE for her character, whatsoever, but if she'd behaved in character Ray would not be on the show, because she would have nothing to do with him and she certainly would not have dated him or slept with him. 

Edited August 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

They never explained why Isabel developed such an antipathy for Felicity right off the bat, but it was fairly obvious she had it in for her and Felicity was smart to be wary of her, both on a professional and a personal level.  When someone just hates you for no apparent reason, it makes sense to watch your back around them.  Maybe they're just being unpleasant and unprofessional, or maybe they're up to no good and you're in their way.  Either way, it's not great, especially when you're keeping the kind of secrets Felicity is keeping.  And Isabel did end up taking her job and trying to kill her, so she was completely right to not trust her!

MG said that Isabel's antipathy was just one of those things that happen (which is why I'm holding on to hope that Wendy Mericle will actually go into motivations next season). 

 

It would have made much more sense if Isabel had projected her feelings about Moira onto Felicity (both blondes, both close to the Man In Charge and keeping Isabel from him) and that's why she reacted to Felicity the way she did, and twice voiced the desire to kill her. Dr. Freud could have had a field day with it.

 

And yet when Felicity is used to tell the audience to like Ray or Laurel as BC, or that Laurel has a light that Sara didn't, many viewers ignored that and were downright disgusted by it.

As others have said, Felicity was first antagonistic towards him and that's what stayed with many of the audience.

 

With respect to Laurel, it was a really bad line since we had already been shown that Sara had a light within her but her "no woman shall suffer at the hands of a man" and and told by  her "we need people in our lives who don't wear [masks]", identifying herself along with Oliver as someone who has a light inside.   It was a cheap way to try to get the audience ot like Laurel and it backfired bigtime.

[kismet]

 

wingster55, on 08 Aug 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

Donna Smoak got best guest star? Both Nyssa and Barry deserved that way more imo.

I think the biggest problem is that Nyssa has been on so many times and so many seasons that she doesn't feel like a guest star anymore. She seems more like a recurring character. Which is a good thing, I like Nyssa. I liked when she was more morally grey in earlier seasons & her more softer sides around both SL &LL in later seasons. But sadly, I'm not sure I consider her a guest star anymore.

 

Likewise, Barry is great! Frankly, I like him better on ARROW than I do on the FLASH. But the crossovers sort take away from people feeling like guest stars anymore. Its expected that they just show up on each others shows. Its like when family comes to visit, they aren't really guests in your house. You still do special things & have fun, but that aura of having a guest in the house is gone.

 

But Donna Smoak was a breath of fresh & funny air. She was different and brought something special to the show. She was the epitome of a good guest star. Makes the main cast look awesome, has both good plot & character moments and you miss her when she is gone. I think both Nyssa & Barry were also amazing guest stars in their first appearances, but now they are not so much guests as just part of the group.

[EmilyBettFan]

Donna was awesome!

[kismet]

I'm not sure I agree with the fan that asked for Baby Sara to get a whole brand new name after Andy Diggle. But I do feel like Baby Sara needs a middle name attached to her to differentiate now that Sara is back from the dead. Then again maybe she'll just be Lil Sara once Baby gets to be inaccurate.

[Sakura12]

Why would she need a new name? I think we can tell them apart and which one they are talking about. 

[calliope1975]

Why would she need a new name? I think we can tell them apart and which one they are talking about. 

 

I don't think Baby Sara needs to be renamed, but it's just another thing that makes me think TIIC had no intention or idea they would be bringing Sara back. Shows typically avoid having two characters named the same thing just because it's easier.

[statsgirl]

Yeah, giving her Sara's name really seems like they weren't intending to bring Sara back in any form, no matter what the EPs are saying.

 

Otherwise they would have named her Andy/Andrea Sara Diggle.

[kismet]

Andrea/Andi Sara might have been just as confusing. I would prefer calling her Sara Ann (for Andy), because its a simple fix & you can easily integrate it into the story now that Andy Diggle will actually be part of the main storyline. Dig can mention how he wants to honor his bro, so maybe they can start using the combo name instead of just Sara.

 

It's gonna get confusing at some point as Sara grows up, if she becomes a bigger part of the show & SL/WC continues to guest on the show. It only takes a few minutes to differentiate who you're talking about. But it can be annoying. I respect that the writers wanted to used Sara as an inspiration, but its pretty poor planning if they ever wanted to bring SL back. It's one thing in real life to put up with it, but its a totally different thing when you're writing the story & have complete control over the character names.

 

Then again, I might just be personally biased/annoyed. I just came back from a vacation where they had Big Rob (the dad) & Lil Rob (the son, who is in his late 30s) because they both prefer Rob over their given name & the son demanded that nobody ever calls him junior. I also work at a place where a lot of people have the same name, so everyone has to go with their last initial or a different nickname. I was one of those people who went with a nickname that combined my name & first initial and then they hired a person whose primary name was my nickname. So now when my manager asks for feedback, people have to differentiate which one we are based on our physical appearance. It just gets frustrating.

[AyChihuahua]

Anyone involved with the show who says they always planned to bring back Sara, as anything other than a hallucination/dream/etc., is, IMO, bald-faced lying, and should be ashamed of themselves. The major clue...they didn't bother to say anything to Caity Lotz, or put her on contract, for goodness' sake.

[calliope1975]

I was one of 7 Jennifer's in one of my high school classes. Thanks, 1970's, for that name! On one hand, it's realistic to have more than one character with the same name since that's reality. On the other hand, it can be really confusing, and I prefer when show's avoid it. Heck, I had trouble with Roy/Ray last year.

[statsgirl]

Jennifer seems to be a popular name in this fandom.

 

And then there's Catholic school, where there are at least three Mary Kates (in various versions) and even more Marys.

 

If they knew that they were going to bring back Sara, the only memento mori name for the Digglet would have been Andrea because even Andi would be too confusing and so will Sara unless Sara Sr. is barely talked about on the show.

 

I guess they wanted a touching Laurel/Diggle moment, but like many impulsive ideas from the EPs, it will end up causing a ton of trouble.

[Sakura12]

I went through my entire schooling until college never meeting someone with the same name as me. And my name isn't even a rare name. 

 

Sara's on a different show, and I doubt baby Sara will be that important to the plot where everyone will all be confused about who they are talking about. Also how often do they call each other by their names anyway? 

[kismet]

From Spoilers Section (but NOT a spolier) statsgirl, on 18 Aug 2015 - 2:15 PM, said:

On behalf of Dinah, I don't think that's fair.  I see Dinah leaving as a combination of grief, Quentin's obsession with the Dollmaker instead of being there for his wife, her grief and guilt over Sara, and Laurel's already evident narcissism and having left her mother.  (We can take it to Merry Men if you'd like to talk though.)

It's not her leaving. I have no problem with that life choice. Its the way she just let Sara go after her other daughter's boyfriend on a transoceanic boat tour without really trying to stop her because it reminded DL of herself & her chasing her loves. The way she treated everyone when they were looking for SL in S1 after she found the picture. Its also the way she treated QL & the Lance sisters during the dinner of doom. It's fine that she moved on, but if her relationship is that serious - that was neither the time or place to spill it to maximize attention/drama on her.

 

And lastly, it's that she chose to keep QL in the dark about SL's death out of spite & who knows what else masqueraded as sympathy for him. QL deserved to know the truth, as a fellow parent & former partner she should have known that. She felt it because a "mother knows" (which I do believe to some degree). But a mother that cared & loved for her family would know that QL deserved to know the truth. QL felt something was off too, but no one was helping him ease the off feeling in his gut. Thank goodness for Sin, she's the only one that at least didn't out right betray him to his face multiple times

 

She should have helped LL see beyond herself & help her tell QL. LL was looking for help/permission instead she got validation from her mother that LL is always right & the priority. Her advice felt more like she was validating herself & not LL. It was just so selfish & all about her. Her daughter is vigilanting trying to literally beat the hate & anger out of herself. And DL is all let's just keep this from QL because reasons. Perhaps its not full blown narcissism (although its pretty close), it's most definitely toxic self-absorption. Perhaps its guilt or grief that has manifested itself in an ugly way in DL... but I think the way LL prioritizes her emotions & place in the world most definitely comes from DL.

 

edited - because although one can write, they are not always RIGHT. Silly typing error :)

Edited August 19, 2015 by kismet

[apinknightmare]

Dinah is a straight-up terrible person for not telling Quentin about Sara. God, that storyline makes me angry. I get being reluctant to tell him, but what in the actual fuck did these people think was going to happen when he found out A) his daughter was dead, B) everyone he loves knew about it and kept it from him, and C) his shitty living daughter buried her without telling him (or telling anyone - she's rotting in a pine box), and D) his shitty living daughter DRESSED UP LIKE HER DEAD SISTER TO FOOL HIM INTO THINKING SHE WAS STILL ALIVE

 

Like...forget about a plain-old heart attack at that point. His heart should've exploded and ROCKETED HIM TO THE MOON. 

 

Quentin sucks now, but Dinah and Laurel did him wrong. 

Edited August 19, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Dinah believing Laurel that Quentin would die and "I can't lose someone again" I think of as another of the S3 idiotic decisions the show made for plot like Oliver protecting MM at all costs and even over Thea's objections, or everyone letting Laurel decide whether Quentin should be told or not, which led into Felicity making the voice modulator fake Sara's voice for Laurel.  If I forgive Felicity for that, I have to forgive Dinah for being a plot contrivance there too.

 

It's not her leaving. I have no problem with that life choice. Its the way she just let Sara go after her other daughter's boyfriend on a transoceanic boat tour without really trying to stop her because it reminded DL of herself & her chasing her loves. The way she treated everyone when they were looking for SL in S1 after she found the picture. Its also the way she treated QL & the Lance sisters during the dinner of doom. It's fine that she moved on, but if her relationship is that serious - that was neither the time or place to spill it to maximize attention/drama on her.

 

It's been a while since I've seen that scene with Laurel (what I chiefly remember is AK's acting) but IIRC she tried to stop Sara from going but Sara refused to stay because she was in love with Oliver and Dinah gave up because you can't stop a teenager from doing what she's determined to do.  Whether or not that's true, I think AK and MG believe it (their kids aren't teenagers yet).  Dinah did try to stop Sara though, and part of her self-flagellation after Sara's death and desperate attempts to find her on the other island was because she felt so guilty.

 

I thought she treated everyone reasonably in s1 when she thought Sara might be alive.  She even gave Quentin hope. The person I had problems with in those episodes was Laurel, who shut down her mother's hopes, called her father so he could do it too, got angry at him when he began to be swayed, and finally blind-sided her mother at CNRI in the cruelest way possible.

 

At the Dinner of Doom, Dinah thought it was just going to be a family dinner to celebrate Sara's return when Quentin started letting her know that he wanted her back again. At that point her only options were to either let him (and the girls) get their hopes up and tell him after dinner, or tell her family right then that she had moved on and was going to stay in Central City.

 

 

She should have helped LL see beyond herself & help her tell QL. LL was looking for help/permission instead she got validation from her mother that LL is always right & the priority. Her advice felt more like she was validating herself & not LL. It was just so selfish & all about her. Her daughter is vigilanting trying to literally beat the hate & anger out of herself. And DL is all let's just keep this from QL because reasons. Perhaps its not full blown narcissism (although its pretty close), it's most definitely toxic self-absorption. Perhaps its guilt or grief that has manifested itself in an ugly way in DL... but I think the way LL prioritizes her emotions & place in the world most definitely comes from DL.

But what else could she do in terms of the season?  If Dinah told Quentin at Christmas, it would spoil the big finale, both for Laurel's storyline and the Hunt For The Arrow when Ra's came to town, a storyline that affected Roy too.   Did Laurel tell her that she was going out beating up people in Sara's place?  I can't remember.  If Laurel did tell her, then Dinah should have said something but I have the impression Laurel skipped over that part.

 

Personally, I think Dinah and Quentin spoiled Laurel rotten and that's why she's convinced she's always right.

 

i know what it's like to live with a narcissistic academic. They don't mark papers on the dining room table because they've taken one of the bigger rooms to be their office and everyone has to be very quiet when they're working so they're not disturbed. They spend time complaining that they're not appreciated enough at their workplace, and conversation is not how everyone else is doing but what papers they're currently writing (even when you're past bored).  Dinah made a number of parenting mistakes with both girls  but I don't see narcissism there.

 

If exclude Dinah's return in 3x9, is she really so bad?. And even in that episode, she kept Laurel away from Oliver.

Edited August 19, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

They should've just left Dinah out of it this season. I know the whole point of her in S3 was to egg Laurel on in her mission to avenge Sara or whatever, but they wouldn't been better off just making her look like an absent idiot who believed Laurel's story that Sara was hiking on Mt. Tibidabo or whatever. 

[statsgirl]

I agree, Dinah had no point in s3 except to encourage Laurel in her bad decisions.  Maybe they wanted Laurel to look better and be supported in a decision most of the audience disliked.

Edited August 19, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

Dinah's actions in S3 are unforgivable (going along with lie to Quentin). Quentin's actions in S3 are unforgivable (decking handcuffed prisoner, losing mind bc Sara didn't "die on that boat" (but still died, I don't get the distinction being that important), hypocrisy re his/his daughters' vigilante actions, crowing about Roy's death). Laurel's actions in S3 (lying to her dad) are unforgivable.

Seriously, Sara had to have been adopted, right?

[statsgirl]

Sara took a sailing trip with her sister's longtime boyfriend, the guy she knew her sister was planning on marrying.

 

When Quentin was so hurt by Laurel lying to him, he said that Sara was a free spirit like her mother, while Laurel was the child like him.  I can see Sara being like a younger Dinah but I don't see much of Laurel in Quentin other than the addiciton.

[BkWurm1]

Quentin's actions in S3 are unforgivable (decking handcuffed prisoner

 

I just don't find it unforgivable.  It's terrible on the police side of things but QL dealings with Oliver wasn't Quentin being Captain, it was him being Sara's dad and frankly, I think Oliver probably felt better after Sara's dad finally got a free shot to deck him.  So while not good, I find it very forgivable in the grand scheme of things. 

 

I can see Sara being like a younger Dinah but I don't see much of Laurel in Quentin other than the addiction.

 

We were supposed to see it in Laurel sticking around rather than running away and in her putting her head down and working toward her law degree and then making work her life.  Except I don't see that work is her life and she almost did run away from Starling. 

[statsgirl]

Maybe Laurel and Quentin are also similar in that they see things in black and white, and when they're angry they take it out on third parties like Tommy and Oliver.  (I'm trying here.)

[AyChihuahua]

I just don't find it unforgivable.  It's terrible on the police side of things but QL dealings with Oliver wasn't Quentin being Captain, it was him being Sara's dad and frankly, I think Oliver probably felt better after Sara's dad finally got a free shot to deck him.  So while not good, I find it very forgivable in the grand scheme of things.

It's a massive, massive civil rights violation. A police officer's emotional issues do not trump a prisoner's Constitutional rights, and a prisoner can't consent to be hit by a police officer, because it's not about the prisoner, it's about the Constitution. IRL Quentin would be in prison for that, not to mention the 100 times he obstructed justice and was an accessory to the vigilantes' crimes, including BOTH his daughters'.