The Not So Merry...Supporting Cast

[Sakura12]

That's how I remember it too. The Sara as Ravenger idea was in the very early stages before CL was cast. When she was hired CL was told she was playing Black Canary and given a bunch of comics on Black Canary. The Sara we were introduced was always supposed to be on the good side with a dark past like Oliver. 

 

She was never playing evil or someone with a hidden agenda like I've seen some people claim. I never saw that, I saw someone that was guarded and broken like Oliver when he first came back. 

[BkWurm1]

AJK said they didn't know if Isabel was going to be good or evil and that's their explanation for why the character was dropped from 209-217. At least that was his explanation in S2.

 

Her absence between 209-217 was due to scheduling conflicts.  But her absence is now what they credit with dropping a Oliver has an ongoing affair with Isabel storyline, instead having him and Sara rekindle stuff. 

 

I know they said they weren't sure how they were going to play Isabel - good or evil - but I wonder if they would have made her good had Oliver slept with her...it seems unlikely. 

Edited December 31, 2015 by BkWurm1

[calliope1975]

It boggles my mind that while TPTB may not have decided if Isabel was good or evil, they were perfectly fine with Oliver and his dad being Eskimo brothers (tm The League) after the Laurel/Sara shenanigans. This show's weird fixation on sharing sex partners is probably something that should be discussed with a therapist. 

[BkWurm1]

It's a real shame that Moira's penchant for secrets kept her from mentioning why Isabel might have reason to tank the company and yeah, a really good reason why he should keep his pants on.  I wonder if it never occurred to Moira that it might happen (Oliver sleeping with Isabel) or if she assumed her warning would come too late. 

Edited December 31, 2015 by BkWurm1

[bijoux]

It boggles my mind that while TPTB may not have decided if Isabel was good or evil, they were perfectly fine with Oliver and his dad being Eskimo brothers (tm The League) after the Laurel/Sara shenanigans. This show's weird fixation on sharing sex partners is probably something that should be discussed with a therapist.

I wasn't that surprised that they would go for it, given that S1 which was dealing with the reprecussions of Oliver messing around with two sisters, also gave us Dig and Carly. It's certainly not nearly as bad, but it was weird having it go on at the same time. Not gonna lie, Dig and Carly would have made my eyebrows go up in whichever context, but I would have found it easier to accept if it didn't seem like your sibling's significant other is the obvious romantic choice in this world. Also more understandable - if they were living in a small community and not in Starling, population: half a million. The pool is simply not that small.

In the end, by the time Isobel's involvement with Robert was revealed, I laughed.

[Delphi]

Was it really that big of a reveal though, we didn't know for sure but the second Moira said not to trust her I instantly went to, "dude, Robert Queen is a cheating sleaze". I seemed clear to me.

Though, while on topic, I really wish we had gotten to see more of Isabel. I thought she was pretty engaging. But then again I'm a Glau Fanboy so that may just be a personal thing.

[Morrigan2575]

I didn't have that reaction in 201. I think the first time I realized Isabel slept with robert was the Moira/Isabel exchange in 208.

[Chaser]

They wasted Glau. I understand schedule but they should have locked her down.  A lot of wasted story potential. 

[tv echo]

We also didn't get the Summer Glau and Sean Maher reunion.

[Delphi]

They wasted Glau. I understand schedule but they should have locked her down. A lot of wasted story potential.

Isn't That their whole thing though? Get really great ideas with loads of potential then forget that actors tend to look for permanent work to make money.

[kismet]

It's a real shame that Moira's penchant for secrets kept her from mentioning why Isabel might have reason to tank the company and yeah, a really good reason why he should keep his pants on.  I wonder if it never occurred to Moira that it might happen (Oliver sleeping with Isabel) or if she assumed her warning would come too late. 

Part of me also wonders if MQ was secret keeping or if it just was another case of the writers writing new fact after the episodes already aired. For example, was the Isabel/RQ affair something that happened before or after they decided to make Isabel bad? Perhaps MQ was not keeping any secrets from her son, but rather the secret did not exist at the time MQ was giving her warnings. It gets really convoluted when you try to pick apart what were the facts known to the characters on an accurate timeline. I can believe that the I/R affair was something that was added late to the story to give it more a twisted punch. Considering MQ's in depth knowledge of her son being unable to keep is zipper in check, I can't imagine she wouldn't have told him to keep it in his pants if she had known about the affair when they were discussing IR.

 

The whole Eskimo Brothers thing seemed a little overkill, so much I have to believe that they did it for dramatic effect. Gotta agree with @calliope1975, the writers have a weird fixation with sharing sexual partners. There are limited partners available on TV shows, so I totally get the switching around of them due to limited actors - but the writers go out of their way to make some weird sexual links between family members. There is the sister swapping (OQ/LL/SL; SL/Nyssa/LL; Dig/Andy/Carly); partner swapping in families (OQ/IR/RQ, to a certain degree MQ/RQ/MM considering the Merlyns & Queens have been described as family). And then the whole odd subcategory of we didn't plan it, but its still awkward with the whole TM/TQ flirtation. I'm totally anticipating something weird coming down the pike for FS, which will likely include RP now that LoT is in existence, especially considering the show already went there with a whole OQ are you sure you're not related joke. There will be some weird sexual overlap that is discovered amongst the stories and the time travel, I place my bet on it now. Like RP sleeping with one of FS's relatives or somehow connected to PapaSmoak. There is no way she is gonna avoid an awkward sexual crossing with these writers and her mother dating QL is not awkward enough to fulfill that requirement.

Edited January 1, 2016 by kismet

[statsgirl]

Moira knew about Robert's cheating though.  In s1 in the flashback when he tells her about Malcolm's plan, she thinks he's going to confess to his latest affair and tells him she doesn't want to know her name.  If the affair with Isabel was even half as serious as Isabel said (Robert was going to run off with her until Thea hurt herself), there is no way Moira could not have known.

 

It's a real shame that Moira's penchant for secrets kept her from mentioning why Isabel might have reason to tank the company and yeah, a really good reason why he should keep his pants on.  I wonder if it never occurred to Moira that it might happen (Oliver sleeping with Isabel) or if she assumed her warning would come too late. 

Denial is a river Moira was very familiar with.  She thought that Thea would never find out about Malcolm being her father and she was furious with Oliver that he told his sister his father was unfaithful and would rather have had Thea believe it was her mother who was.  She's not someone who would have admitted to Oliver that his father not only had an affair with Isabel but was willing to leave his family for her.  She's the kind of person who would have hoped that telling Oliver that Isabel was not a good person would be enough.

 

And really, Isabel wanting to take over QC and gut it, firing all the employees, whould have been enough of a clue for Oliver.

[kismet]

I'd have to watch s1 & s2 again, but I'm not sure if Moira knew about RQ's cheating because I'm not sure RQ was painted as a cheater. Or if that was a s2 development that RQ cheated on his wife. I wouldn't say they had a perfect marriage, but there was nothing in my memory that painted RQ as a cheater to the extent of a mistress until Isabel arrived in the plot in s2.

 

That being said, MQ did seem to have time share on a river boat in De'Nial. SO it could be reasonable in her characterization that she would keep RQ & IR affair a secret.

Edited January 2, 2016 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

I'd have to watch s1 & s2 again, but I'm not sure if Moira knew about RQ's cheating because I'm not sure RQ was painted as a cheater. Or if that was a s2 development that RQ cheated on his wife.

It was addressed in 111, when Thea thought Moira was having an affair with Malcolm:

 

Robert was unfaithful to me repeatedly. It made our marriage difficult, to say the least. I'm sorry, Oliver, but your father wasn't always the man you thought he was. I know you thought he walked on water, but, you see, that's how I wanted you to remember him-- as a good man who loved you. That's how I want Thea to remember him. So promise me you'll keep it a secret.

[Morrigan2575]

It was addressed in 111, when Thea thought Moira was having an affair with Malcolm:

Robert was unfaithful to me repeatedly. It made our marriage difficult, to say the least. I'm sorry, Oliver, but your father wasn't always the man you thought he was. I know you thought he walked on water, but, you see, that's how I wanted you to remember him-- as a good man who loved you. That's how I want Thea to remember him. So promise me you'll keep it a secret.

Yep 111 and 122 IIRC adressed Robert being a serial cheater. I think they also mentioned it in 207 when Moria revealed her dalliance with Malcom.

Moira: Years ago-- it was many years ago. Your father was engaging in his-- his extramarital activities. And I had a moment of weakness. I cheated on him. With Malcolm Merlyn.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[kismet]

Thanks! Forgot about that line. I tended to zone out in s1 whenever TQ was mentioned or addressed. The majority of her character in s1 & s2 self was really so annoying even if it was only a name dropping.

 

That being said, even though RQ was a serial cheater. I still think IR being one of his mistresses was a late addition to the s2 plot to help increase the drama, as well as explain some of IR anger since she was missing for some crucial episodes of character development due to scheduling conflicts.

[statsgirl]

If the affair was a late addition, why was Moira so anti Isabel even at the start of the season?  And why did Isabel reciprocate?  Her conversation with Moira at the "Get Out of Jail" party was major cat claws.

 

Even if they weren't sure if Isabel was going to be good or bad (which I don't quite believe), I think the affair would have been something they had planned from the beginning as a reason for Oliver and Isabel to break up when the time came.  But after the Russia episode, there's no way I would have bought Isabel as a good person even if they had decided to go that way.

Edited January 2, 2016 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

Thanks! Forgot about that line. I tended to zone out in s1 whenever TQ was mentioned or addressed. The majority of her character in s1 & s2 self was really so annoying even if it was only a name dropping.

 

That being said, even though RQ was a serial cheater. I still think IR being one of his mistresses was a late addition to the s2 plot to help increase the drama, as well as explain some of IR anger since she was missing for some crucial episodes of character development due to scheduling conflicts.

Even if the writers only added the I/R affair later, I still try to understand it from the characters standpoint as if she did know, since now after the fact, we are told she did know right from the start. Confusing, right?

Being reminded about how much she was still bent on protecting Roberts image, not giving Oliver full disclosure is in character though it still makes me wonder if Oliver possibly sleeping with Isabel ever occurred to her or not.

[Happy Harpy]

If the affair was a late addition, why was Moira so anti Isabel even at the start of the season?  And why did Isabel reciprocate?  Her conversation with Moira at the "Get Out of Jail" party was major cat claws.

I don't know if the affair was a late addition or not, but Isabel's name was on the booklist, so Moira should have known her as taking part in the Undertaking. I think it was reason enough for Moima Bear to not want that woman anywhere around her son.

I'd tend to think that, like with many of their recurring characters imo, the writers had several options in mind and kept them open at least for part A of the season. Isabel Rochev's comic background makes me think that a romantic link with Robert (real or imaginary) could have been one of those options. I have to say that I'd have preferred if they had made her a 100% deluded stalker and didn't pull another Forrester. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[DeadZeus]

Did they ever explain why Isabelle Rochev's name was on the list yet Oliver has no idea who she is or was it just a mistake?

[bijoux]

Never as far as I recall.

[Morrigan2575]

No, they said they were going to explain it but never did.

[kismet]

The writer's amnesia has a tendency to flow over to OQ. MG said they like to make OQ an idiot because it gives them a lot of mileage. I like to believe rather they keep OQ an idiot because they lack the skill to keep the plots and information straight. So it's not an intentional thing the writers do, but rather they just find their post-it notes and index cards after they already written and released scripts. SO OQ being an idiot covers up their mistakes.

 

Here's hoping they never introduce Amnesia into the show, because I do not trust their ability to keep the information, facts and truths intact. They can barely keep a chronological plotline in place, with a few flashbacks. Can you imagine how much of a mess this show would be if they introduced more wobbly timelines like amnesia and time travel. I shudder to think about it.

Edited January 7, 2016 by kismet

[kismet]

Man, that actress has played a prostitute on SPN twice and now on iZombie.  I wonder if she'll turn out to be a hooker on Arrow too. LOL

 

Not that there is anything wrong with playing a hooker!

I would love to see her actually be a prostitute on ARROW. It would be at least something interesting for her character. That could explain how she fell into a random island drug production ensemble. It could also link her to Bratva if they wanted to got there that somehow perhaps the sex trade changed into her being part of the drug trade.

 

It would also contribute to why her & OQ hook up. Somehow, her sleeping with him seems like such a weird progression of their relationship for both characters, that I'm struggling to find a reason beyond FOR PLOT!! Even though I know that is the answer.

 

I'm more curious about why she keeps getting roles as Eastern European characters when she's so bad at the accent.

Well, she does have a very European look to her features.... BUT her accent is horrible. I wonder why they don't just have her not do the accent.

[bijoux]

What's a European look? Now I'm wondering if I have it. :)

[statsgirl]

I don't know what  European look is but apparently it exists.  Back in the days when Communism was still holding sway in Hungary and you always had to carry your identification papers, my parents took me and my husband on a trip back to see the old country.  We were on a train to the town my great uncle had lived in when a man who had been strolling back and forth came up to us and demanded my husband's papers.  Just his, not ours even though we were all speaking English. Somehow the security guard had figured out that my English/Irish/American extraction husband was not a native Hungarian.

[lemotomato]

Well, she does have a very European look to her features.... BUT her accent is horrible. I wonder why they don't just have her not do the accent.

Accents are a TV/movie shortcut to revealing the ethnicity of a character. How would we know she's Eastern European if she didn't have it?

Nyssa is another example of using an indeterminate accent to emphasize an exotic background.

[Chaser]

Or as I think to call it, the "Deanna Troi".

[kismet]

Accents are a TV/movie shortcut to revealing the ethnicity of a character. How would we know she's Eastern European if she didn't have it?

Nyssa is another example of using an indeterminate accent to emphasize an exotic background.

They could just tell us. She looks Eastern European that's enough for me. Or have her lighten it up a bit. I just dislike wonky accents that sound overdone & inauthentic; for me it takes me out of the performance. But her accent is the least of the problems with her character.

 

Nyssa's sounds good - that's the difference.

[kismet]

So Im watching Genesis and I have met the new Lil Sara and she is just not as good of an actress as the first one. I really miss the Original Lil Sara that one could put some of the other adult actors acting to shame. This one just seems a little distracted by all the lights. I will say though that she is very adorable. I am only halfway through the episode, perhaps I should give her until the end of the episode to redeem herself.

That being said, I'm loving this Fortuna Shaman, can we just keep her for recurring episodes? She's sassy and the actress has just the right amount of swagger.

[tv echo]

In case anyone was wondering, Darhk's daughter's name is Nora Darhk and she's played by an actress named Tuesday Hofmann. Arrow is her only acting credit...

IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm7781681/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t20
Twitter: https://twitter.com/tuesday_hofmann

[bijoux]

You can sort of tell it's her first time. I was just thinking her and William were a match made in bland heaven.

[kismet]

I do really feel bad picking on the acting of the children. But Kid Oliver & Kid Tommy were so good. Original Baby Sara is such a scene stealer. Even new Baby Sara is good, not as good as the original imo, but good none the less.

And then there is so much talent amongst children over the years on TV & movies, that you wonder were those two really the best the casting dept could do?

[tv echo]

I'll miss Rory (Ragman). One media reviewer described Joe Dinicol as a "charismatic actor." Charismatic actors elevate their scripted lines and make even limited roles better than they're written. Joe did that and his character will be missed.  Although RG, MMcL and JH are good actors, they are not (imo) charismatic actors.

Edited February 10, 2017 by tv echo

[bijoux]

I absolutely agree on Joe Dinicol, but I think Madison McLaughlin goes from inobtrusive when she's in the background to downright terrible when she's in the forefront.

Edited February 10, 2017 by bijoux

[kismet]

So Rory is gone?? And here I was going to give him a shot after liking him on Blindspot. I hadn't seen Blindspot before recently, so never made the connection why the boyfriend was so familiar. And then I thought this guy is really likeable, maybe I could see him on Arrow once the connection was made. I do find him charismatic. Figures they keep the worst of the newbies and chuck the one who seemed most liked. I didn't like his powers, but he was pleasant in the lair.

Also, just checked IMDB - Joe Dinicol looks young for his age. I thought I looked young for my age, but he's only 2 years younger than SA and me.  And I definitely thought he was more EBRs age than SA.

[kismet]

Not going to watch this past episode for possibly awhile... but did the BC costume live up to the hype? Was it more like SL's or Buckles? I saw the Lord Mesa post, so I assume we have the big reveal?

[Chaser]

It was a mask basically. Jeans and a leather jacket. 

Im assuming it's not the final product.

[statsgirl]

On the other hand, Curtis' new outfit was terrible. Who thought it was a good idea for a vigilante to wear a costume with a lot of white in it

[Mellowyellow]

He looked like one of those race car drivers!

[kismet]

Oh that Fair Justice is a new outfit? I thought it was just an Echo statement piece. That is atrocious.

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

On the other hand, Curtis' new outfit was terrible. Who thought it was a good idea for a vigilante to wear a costume with a lot of white in it

Probably the same people who thought filming fighting scenes in the winter sleeveless was a good idea. Or the people that approved fingerless gloves for a DA. Mask dept has been struggling since s3 to get logical outfits in the field.

1 hour ago, Chaser said:

It was a mask basically. Jeans and a leather jacket. 

Im assuming it's not the final product.

Thanks, you're probably right. I expect more to come.

[kismet]

I have not really kept up faithfully with my viewing... but are there any good Anatoly episodes this season??

Because I love Anatoly, and after this flashback episode I want more of him in the present day. I just want more Anatoly, I've loved him since the ship of horrors. And it seems like he has found some inspirational & psych books that might help OQ.

[BkWurm1]

He was fun in the present day Russian in Bratva.  

[kismet]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

More old EP interviews about Sara and Laurel...

TV Line interview with Andrew Kreisberg (Jan. 14, 2014):

TV Guide interview with Andrew Kreisberg (Apr. 16, 2014):

Part of me thinks Susan Williams character arc is just an extension of what they intended Isabel's arc to be. They like having nebulously grey female characters that use OQ for secret & selfish reasons. I don't know whatever happened behind closed doors, but it seemed like Summer Glau was cast excellently but then classic Arrow was not properly contracted to allow TPTB to tell the story they wanted to tell. So they made a decision to attach her arc to the big bad, because they thought it would be cool, but also they couldn't do what they initially intended. Flash forward to s5, they finally get to tell their coveted unknown evil but good girlfriend stall tactic plot line with Susan, who they managed to get the proper contract for. So yay to them on having the persistence to tell a 3 year old story, that few people wanted and that really didn't need to be told. Summary, I guess on the business end they learned their lesson, because we didn't lose Susan like WildCat & Isabel. But from a storytelling perspective, there are still some major areas of improvement & growth. 

I'm not a writer but I don't think it speaks well to their method how they handled SL & IR as either Canary v/or Ravager arcs. They had 2 talented female actors (SG & CL) that could handle action & characterization and rather than writing characters that suited them, the overall story, they basically waffled in who would be who. It's a disappointing way to handle the characters. It's no wonder their BC arc fell, if they can't properly map or figure out the supporting female action arcs, how are they expected to figure out a main character's arc? There is something to be said for making it work moments or letting the character evolve, but that by no means is an excuse for improper preparation & planning. Which is politely I think what happens with a lot of their female arcs. They have some great ideas, but poor follow through on many layers/levels.

[way2interested]

Just now, kismet said:

I'm not a writer but I don't think it speaks well to their method how they handled SL & IR as either Canary v/or Ravager arcs. They had 2 talented female actors (SG & CL) that could handle action & characterization and rather than writing characters that suited them, the overall story, they basically waffled in who would be who. It's a disappointing way to handle the characters. It's no wonder their BC arc fell, if they can't properly map or figure out the supporting female action arcs, how are they expected to figure out a main character's arc? There is something to be said for making it work moments or letting the character evolve, but that by no means is an excuse for improper preparation & planning. Which is politely I think what happens with a lot of their female arcs. They have some great ideas, but poor follow through on many layers/levels.

It's almost as if one of the actress had scheduling issues and they had to scramble for the rest of the season and that it was a miracle that the other female character still turned out as well as she did and nothing to do with what their intentions or plans were.

[kismet]

Flicking through the TVline quotes of the week, and Arrow's Raisa got a shout out...  Is she back on the show to take care of MySon?

I've been overly invested in Raisa's development since the pilot, even used to use her as a fanfiction filter. It would be a nice idea if they brought her back to help with MySon, especially since they have killed or fridged OQ's entire family. It's not enough for me to tune back into the show. But I had to find out if Raisa is back for good, since MG always seemed surprised that people asked about Raisa despite her lack of a role.

[statsgirl]

Sorry.  She's back for this episode to take are of MySon but this is the only Arrow episode she's got listed on IMDB.

My guess is that she'll be referenced occasionally but won't be seen on screen.  (Looking at her IMDB page, Kathleen Gati is a pretty busy woman.)

[kismet]

10 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Sorry.  She's back for this episode to take are of MySon but this is the only Arrow episode she's got listed on IMDB.

My guess is that she'll be referenced occasionally but won't be seen on screen.  (Looking at her IMDB page, Kathleen Gati is a pretty busy woman.)

Thanks! Maybe this means less of MySon for you guys, which seems like it might be favorable. Haven't really seen MySon be well received.

Darn it, I really hoped Arrow would keep Raisa on for more episodes. Good for her though about being busy. She has talent, a few minutes in the pilot and people are still asking about her 6 seasons later. Arrow has had some actors under contract and barely got that level of interest.

[way2interested]

33 minutes ago, kismet said:

Haven't really seen MySon be well received.

At least luckily this time around it's been more of meh to "rather not be here" rather than outright anger from what I've seen.

[Hiveminder]

Totally random thought, and I’m not really sure where to put it. I was watching Kevin Probably Saves the World, and I think of Detective Tiny Hands had been played by Jason Ritter, I actually would have cared when he died. He’s so likeable.