The Man In The High Castle - General Discussion

[doyouevengohere]

I finished the series today.  I , too, did not understand the ending.  Maybe the people are like Trudi and Julianna?  They knew they had crossed over to another world and are trying to get back to loved ones or keep fighting in the resistance in the Nazi world?  I wanted chilldan to get his happy ending with the lovely gentle Japanese woman.  The man under Smith isn't going to be a Nazi anymore? and will turn things around? What happens to the BCR? There needed to be an explanation, like 6 months to a year later or something.  Kido? eh, he could have died like a season ago and I wouldn't have cared.  One thing that I wondered about in the beginning of this season, what ever happened to Jennifer's blood test?  Helen ran away to Montana with her to avoid it.....when they came back did Smith just forge papers saying she got it in Chicago or something?  Because the Nazis don't seem like the people to just let that go.

[Mrs peel]

4 hours ago, doyouevengohere said:

I finished the series today.  I , too, did not understand the ending.  Maybe the people are like Trudi and Julianna?  They knew they had crossed over to another world and are trying to get back to loved ones or keep fighting in the resistance in the Nazi world?  I wanted chilldan to get his happy ending with the lovely gentle Japanese woman.  The man under Smith isn't going to be a Nazi anymore? and will turn things around? What happens to the BCR? There needed to be an explanation, like 6 months to a year later or something.  Kido? eh, he could have died like a season ago and I wouldn't have cared.  One thing that I wondered about in the beginning of this season, what ever happened to Jennifer's blood test?  Helen ran away to Montana with her to avoid it.....when they came back did Smith just forge papers saying she got it in Chicago or something?  Because the Nazis don't seem like the people to just let that go.

My most recent thought on the portal.  Maybe that the Nazis were using it so much the portal was "damaged" and didn't close?  Julianna mentioned having flashes of the portal at various times. 

And thinking about Smith's obsession with his son, I wonder how many Nazi soldiers died in the portal before they found one who wasn't alive in the alt-world.

[DoctorAtomic]

I thought Smith was just going to take the girls and up into the other world. I didn't think he would yank Thomas into his.

I don't know why everyone walked in because some of them sure aren't going to like the state of affairs.

I think we were led to believe that now that America was independent that they were going to become America once again. That line about having the nukes wasn't a throwaway.

[DoctorAtomic]

On 11/19/2019 at 10:35 PM, Mrs peel said:

5.  Robert finally found someone he cared about.  I liked that story.  I kept wondering if they could have gone to Australia or somewhere other than the Japanese mainland, which would be difficult for them to be together.  I wanted to know whether the Japanese were evacuating other places like Australia.

Yeah, it seemed rather short sighted of them to not think of that. Even when they got to the ship, I would have thought they said, let's just go somewhere else.

[Chaos Theory]

Finally got a chance to watch the final season of the show and although the ending is a little too vague for me I overall enjoyed the show.  I think the show wanted to have the crossover stuff mean something but it wasn't really necessary and just muddied the water a little too much.

What I did really like was the Smith Family Drama.  That from the start has been the best part of the series.  Watching John and Helen Smith navigate their way through the Reich.  I am actually glad that the show didn't give John a redemption arc while it did kinda sorta give one to Helen.   The final season was about how a single act whether it be a change of heart, a bible or a bullet can change the course of history.  I liked how the Japanese story had it be a change of heart from one of the most gung-ho of its military but with the American Nazi's and John Smith it was a bullet.    It just wasn't worth it anymore for the Japanese but the Nazi's would fight on as long as they had a strong leader like John Smith.  I thought that was a very good point.  Plus John and Helen were always on fire together.   I loved their two daughters as well.  One questioning the Reich to the point where she was becoming a real threat to herself and her family and the other who was following along without question.  

So even if the last couple of minutes were a little odd....all in all this was a top shelf series that I would highly recommend.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[Haleth]

Ok, not reading this yet since I’m only thru epi 4, but can anyone remind me what happened to Ed?  I miss him as Childan’s sidekick. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I thought he remained in the neutral zone with his cowboy boyfriend.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 11/18/2019 at 5:56 AM, snowwhyte said:

On a separate topic, one of my favourite scenes in this season was the confrontation between Helen and Jennifer. The Smiths both needed to confront what they had done and who they had become. Using your children as an excuse for your terrible choices doesn't work that well if your children find out. The whole mentality of doing anything to protect your kids doesn't seem so noble when it costs the lives of thousands of other children.

That scene was really good. The actress who played Jennifer did a great job especially for a kid actor. And then after that the scene with John and Helen on the train was just amazing.

All the way though I really liked the black resistance storyline. I did feel bad for them though thinking how you have gotten rid of the Japanese but now the Nazi's are moving in, have a bigger military, are going to be way more brutal and have way more (terrible) experience with exterminating large groups of people. 

[Aliferously]

Saw episodes 3-4-5 last night.

I think I want to re watch episode 5 every week from now on. It was so good. 

Still think John Smith is an utter psychopath, but I finally understand him better. I think what killed me most was that moral quandary about his children. He won't have his son if he chooses his daughters, and vice versa. What a terrible choice to have to make.

Other tidbits:

Who gives a 10 year old chocolates and her teenage sister a doll? 

That was such a bizarre dinner party. Pretty sure the "food restrictions" just said to serve soup and rolls.

Aww Liam and Juliana. I hope Liam is the one that gets to survives getting entangled with her though. 

[DoctorAtomic]

10 hours ago, Aliferously said:

He won't have his son if he chooses his daughters, and vice versa. What a terrible choice to have to make.

That's not technically true. The daughters don't exist in the 'salesman Smith' universe. He could just bring them there.

[Kel Varnsen]

Thinking about the ending made me realize there is some weird stuff going on with the different dimensions. The Nazi portal can, according to that weird mirror room, only link to 1 dimension and that is the one that Juliana went to on her own while getting shot. But Tagomi seemed to go to different dimension since in his Juliana was alive. 

The Man in the High Castle also got films from a bunch of different dimensions. Did those all get delivered directly to him from their home dimension or was it only from one other dimension directly to him?

Also when Juliana went to the other dimension she also managed to end up in a different dimension and in a different location (in front of John's car). But when Nazi's go through the portal they come out the other side still in the Poconos. But when Juliana went back she stayed at the Lincoln Memorial.

[DoctorAtomic]

I think people like Julia and Tagomi who can travel on their own can end up where ever and in what ever dimension it seems. Of course, they can't exist there.

They showed the portal to be like a road between just the one dimension.

From what I remember in the first season Julia's sister came from where ever with one of the films, so I figured that people from all over were taking films from their dimension to the high castle.

[doyouevengohere]

I actually thought that at some point Jennifer was going to put herself in real danger and Smith was going to stage her going off somewhere or dying and then take her to the alt world.  Especially after he learned about if you don't exist there then you can come over unharmed.  He didn't but it was an interesting possibility.

Edited November 24, 2019 by doyouevengohere

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm wondering if they wrote themselves into a corner and didn't know really how to end it. It seemed to me they made a huge point of letting us know that alt-Smith didn't have any girls. Then Helen died in the crash, so I figured he was going to send them through and just get out of there. Or even if he ended up dying to make arrangements for them to go through.

[oakville]

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm wondering if they wrote themselves into a corner and didn't know really how to end it. It seemed to me they made a huge point of letting us know that alt-Smith didn't have any girls. Then Helen died in the crash, so I figured he was going to send them through and just get out of there. Or even if he ended up dying to make arrangements for them to go through.

I think the show needed one more season to finish the series properly.

The Japanese leaving the Pacific states after one successful attack on pipelines was rushed.

I also thought that it was unrealistic that Smith would wipe out the Nazi leaders in Berlin after 1 meeting. .

[DoctorAtomic]

Smith isn't an idiot though. He knew Himmler's wife was basically spying on them, and the dinner with Himmler showed killing him would be fairly easy.

I don't mind the Japanese leaving. The show needed one major victory, and they didn't have a ton of territory. They already showed the princess leaning to withdrawal anyway. Tagomi got killed (even though not by the BCR), then the meeting with the Admiral and the BCR went sideways and they were having court marital hearings. So in the larger context it was getting to be a mess to hold on to the territory, and *then* a huge oil pipeline got blown up, and Robert's telling Kido that the BCR is relentless and they're never going to stop. So maybe a little more development of all these threads, but in this season, the Japanese leaving was ok for me.

I don't think the show ending with the USA being totally free would have been earned so I do like Bill throwing down the medal. I think as someone mentioned earlier here maybe that showing a lot of the American nazis deserting and taking off their arm bands would have been better.

[Kel Varnsen]

15 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I think people like Julia and Tagomi who can travel on their own can end up where ever and in what ever dimension it seems. Of course, they can't exist there.

It is weird though since when Juliana returned to her own world she went to Washington DC USA and transported herself to Washington DC in the Reich. It also seems like if she did have the power to transport herself to any actual location in a specific dimension that would be a pretty powerful ability for a resistance member to have.

[Chaos Theory]

I don’t think the show needed another season.  Maybe another episode or even just a better use of the teleported thing.   Have someone tangible step through.   I still say a unit of Americans for the Alt-verse.   Maybe with Thomas who did join the army after his father disappeared.   Juliana looks over at all the soldiers then sees Thomas and they smile at each other.    

[Chaos Theory]

One of the most fascinating things about John Smith is how much he resonates with people.  So much so that no matter how many terrible choices he made people still need him to be hero because most of us could see ourselves making the very same choices.

Why did he end up being the villain and not someone like Kido for instance?   Kido who did so manly awful things as well?    I don’t think Kido got a redemption arc in the purest sense of the word.  He just grew in a way John Smith didn’t.   He was able to face the horrible truth about what he did and give the Princess what she needed.   The truth.   That yes Japan could hold on to the Pacific States forever but the cost was no longer worth the price.

 Helen who also got a semblances of redemption faces her past and that she was just as culpable as John was and that unlike John she wasn’t willing to trap her children in the Reich.   I loved the line about how they all navigated through the Reich and gave so many people up to the Reich and then the Reich came for them.   I think that moment changed Helen.   
 

I Wasn’t sure about the BCR and adding a new group this late in the story was a little strange to me.  But I think they took on the roll of the group who wanted no part of what Juliana was offering.  They heard it all before and just wanted a home of their own.   I thought it was an interesting story to tell.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm wondering if Reich Helen actually knew the full story behind the films whether she'd hustle the girls off to live with American Helen to get them out. 

[Mrs peel]

18 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm wondering if they wrote themselves into a corner and didn't know really how to end it. It seemed to me they made a huge point of letting us know that alt-Smith didn't have any girls. Then Helen died in the crash, so I figured he was going to send them through and just get out of there. Or even if he ended up dying to make arrangements for them to go through.

Except prior to going to Berlin (?) he gave that other officer instructions on what to do with Helen and the girls, in the event he didn't come back.  That was likely to get them to the neutral zone or maybe South America (as he had planned with Thomas).

I think he planned to bring Thomas back to Nazi world, in his conversation with Helen on the train she pretty strongly said Thomas should stay with his "good mother" in alt-world.

For someone else who thought the Nazi officer throwing down his medal wasn't enough - I also wish there had been another episode (though if we had one we'd want more), but they did reference Nazi soldiers deserting when the BCR was planning their defense of SF at the end.

[Kel Varnsen]

5 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I Wasn’t sure about the BCR and adding a new group this late in the story was a little strange to me.  But I think they took on the roll of the group who wanted no part of what Juliana was offering.  They heard it all before and just wanted a home of their own.   I thought it was an interesting story to tell.

I liked the BCR, it was a strong story with interesting characters. They weren't going to have Tagomi this year or Frank, so it was a good replacement. And like I said above it was way more interesting than the useless stuff with Joe's girlfriend.

3 hours ago, Mrs peel said:

For someone else who thought the Nazi officer throwing down his medal wasn't enough - I also wish there had been another episode (though if we had one we'd want more), but they did reference Nazi soldiers deserting when the BCR was planning their defense of SF at the end.

Yea it didn't really mean a whole lot. I mean you can still be a totalitarian government and not be actual Nazi's.

Also speaking of Nazis, I thought it was kind of hilarious that the government in Berlin ended up getting basically overthrown all because Himmler was a giant baby. I mean for all the Nazi's talk about strength Himmler wanted to kill John because John didn't give him enough attention when he was in the hospital.

[Mrs peel]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I liked the BCR, it was a strong story with interesting characters. They weren't going to have Tagomi this year or Frank, so it was a good replacement. And like I said above it was way more interesting than the useless stuff with Joe's girlfriend.

Yea it didn't really mean a whole lot. I mean you can still be a totalitarian government and not be actual Nazi's.

Also speaking of Nazis, I thought it was kind of hilarious that the government in Berlin ended up getting basically overthrown all because Himmler was a giant baby. I mean for all the Nazi's talk about strength Himmler wanted to kill John because John didn't give him enough attention when he was in the hospital.

 It isn’t that true of totalitarian, “dear leader” type governments?  Run afoul of the “dear leader” and face death.  There is no logic to the actions.

I think the show meant to show that the new leader would change things.  Even Smith mentioned that Americans are rebels, not easily led from without.  The most interesting thing would be how/whether the 50 state US could be brought back together - the neutral zone and former JPS have every expression to not want “in” with former Nazis.

[DoctorAtomic]

I could see it becoming more of a confederation. 

[Chaos Theory]

If anything the BCR are taking on the roll of the European Jews IE Isreal.   After everything all they want is a home of their own.   

[TimWil]

2 continuity errors I recently picked up:

In Season 1/Episode 1 Ed mentions an H bomb had been dropped in DC. But in Season 2/Episode 10 John claims that a "new kind of atomic device called a hydrogen bomb" had been developed by the Japanese.

And in Season 2/Episode 9 the flashback showed the bomb hitting DC in either late afternoon or early evening when John and Helen arrived in their apartment (or was it a cabin?). But in Season 4 it was mentioned that the bomb had been dropped on a Sunday while people were in church.Would anyone be attending church in late afternoon/early evening in December?

Re: the alt-world film Smith showed the Nazis-so they never figured out it had to be a fake because the Japanese had only recently developed a nuclear weapon which was far less powerful than the bomb shown in it? This concern was brought up by the Japanese command but it was never followed up in the story.

The conclusion with all those non descriptive people wandering out of the tunnel looked way too much like the climax of Close Encounters of the Third Kind for my taste. I half-expected a dog to wander out, too. It made for a very unsatisfying conclusion but I love the show so am OK with it. And I was very satisfied that both John and Helen eventually paid with their lives. Unlike...hmmm...yeah, Philip and Elizabeth Jennings, I'm looking at you.

Edited November 29, 2019 by TimWil

[FormerMod-a1]

I wonder if where Julianna ended up when crossing universes was based on what she was focusing on.  On her initial transport, her mind was on John as he was bursting through her door and shooting her and then low and behold she ends up right in front of Alt-John.  Then for her return, she was able to choose the specific spot she wanted and use the location.

The ending confused me a bit, too.  At first I thought they were random people caught between world jumping.  Then I wondered if they were the people from the main world we followed that had crossed previously, for whatever reason, now appearing back "home" because of the change to the portal.  Then I was confused as to why none of the travelers stopped to interact with our cast, or look around, or anything.  They all walked off slowly apparently not curious about where they were, who the others were; even if they knew exactly where they were, the lack of acknowledgement of the other people around them was just odd.

All that said, I thoroughly enjoyed this.  As with every season, I start with ep 1 thinking "hmmm...  maybe I'm not as into this as I remembered, but I'll finish this one out" and then next thing I know I've finished ep 7 and lost a whole afternoon. 🙂  I binged this final season in 2 days.  

[txhorns79]

On 11/20/2019 at 12:35 AM, Mrs peel said:

4.  Was the plot where Juliana was the trade minister’s daughter-in-law a second alt-universe?  Or a dream?  Because if the theme held that you couldn’t be alive in both worlds, that family didn’t exist in the world where Smith was a salesman.

I presumed that was a different alt world from the one Julianna ended up in.  At least as I understood them, the rules say she couldn't have ended up in a world where she was still alive.

On 11/17/2019 at 7:30 PM, Sakura12 said:

I never would've thought Helen could be turned but I guess Juliana was right in thinking after losing her son to them she finally realized that she was living a lie. I was happy when she got to tell John that it was her that told the Resistance where they'd be. 

It was interesting to me that Juliana seemed to become almost a secondary character in a series where she was once nominally the star. 

I thought John and Helen were just fascinating.  Helen's whole speech about having been given three chances to raise her kids and having failed each time was heartbreaking.  Obviously, she and John made their beds, and even though the characters deserve no sympathy, I did want Helen to escape to something better.

One thing that I didn't think was particularly realistic was the Nazis apparently killing off most of the population of Harlem and leaving the area abandoned.  It seemed more likely they would have moved in Aryan families and remade the area to make it seem as though it had never been a place where black people had lived.    

[Lillith]

19 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I presumed that was a different alt world from the one Julianna ended up in.  At least as I understood them, the rules say she couldn't have ended up in a world where she was still alive.

It was interesting to me that Juliana seemed to become almost a secondary character in a series where she was once nominally the star. 

I thought John and Helen were just fascinating.  Helen's whole speech about having been given three chances to raise her kids and having failed each time was heartbreaking.  Obviously, she and John made their beds, and even though the characters deserve no sympathy, I did want Helen to escape to something better.

One thing that I didn't think was particularly realistic was the Nazis apparently killing off most of the population of Harlem and leaving the area abandoned.  It seemed more likely they would have moved in Aryan families and remade the area to make it seem as though it had never been a place where black people had lived.    

Juliana has consistently been the least likeable and least interesting character to me in the entire series.  

I think the Smith's end was fitting but I do wonder what's going to happen to those girls. 

And yes I thought it was odd they'd leave Harlem empty. In Europe they were very happy to put collaborators, and of course party members in the homes of those who were taken away. They let nothing go to waste. 

[txhorns79]

2 hours ago, Lillith said:

And yes I thought it was odd they'd leave Harlem empty. In Europe they were very happy to put collaborators, and of course party members in the homes of those who were taken away. They let nothing go to waste. 

That was my thought as well.  In Germany, Poland, Austria, etc., when they moved the Jews out, they moved other people in.  And it just seemed like even in a Nazified Manhattan, space would be at a premium, so it would be foolish to simply abandon so much otherwise usable housing and land. 

[ahpny]

Quote

 That line about having the nukes wasn't a throwaway.

Why would the Nazi's let Americans have this control? Other than to support the conclusion of the series they wanted, that didn't seem realistic. Also, why would the young Nazi plotting officer agree to give up control of North America? I suppose that was his only ticket to seize control of the rest of the Reich? But how could John have that much power if he was so on the outs with the top Nazis then in control? Maybe best not to overthink things.

Overall, the series was well done - perhaps most entertainingly by projecting what American life would truly be like under a division and occupation by the two Axis powers. But a few things seemed off. What happened to Americans of Japanese descent on the West Coast? In our universe, many were imprisoned in one of the darker periods of recent American history. Would the fictional Japanese occupiers in the JPS consider Americans of Japanese descent "Japanese" and treat them differently (and better)? That would parallel the Nazi's presumably considering Americans of German descent Aryan. 

And a small point. I understand why Helen burned Margarite's dried flowers. But what if Margarite came back to their apartment unexpectedly (as she already did at least once)? Wouldn't Helen want them prominently displayed as a show of loyalty and respect (even if kept hidden in a cabinet somewhere otherwise)?

Smith's ability to escape lethal Nazi plots might have been a bit strained, Recall his dispatch of high Nazi leader (Goering? I forgot who it was) during a hunting trip in a past season, where he gave Helen the same "if I don't come back" speech that he gave to his No. 2 in the penultimate episode. But his fang-revealing speech to Himmler was worth it. Death by insulting truth. Hoover was creepily credible, but would the Nazis have put up with his own presumed proclivities?

Quote

One thing that I didn't think was particularly realistic was the Nazis apparently killing off most of the population of Harlem and leaving the area abandoned.  It seemed more likely they would have moved in Aryan families and remade the area to make it seem as though it had never been a place where black people had lived. 

Where the Smiths lived before moving into the City to their swanky Nazi high rise (which reminded me of a Nazi version of Don Draper's apartment in Madmen), they lived in Roslyn, New York. Roslyn is now, and was then, a wealthy suburb on the North Shore of Long Island. It has now, and had to a lesser extent before WWII, a significant Jewish population. It's easy to imagine the Smith's Roslyn home being formerly owned by Jews. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by ahpny

[DoctorAtomic]

Now I want to see Nazi Mad Men.

With nukes, maybe at the time they set them up they were strictly under German control. But you need to be physically present to launch one, and as the empire grows, you need personnel. 

John up to this point hasn't shown anything but total loyalty too. It's Helen that was the problem, and Himmler's fragile ego. He wasn't critical of John's leadership; he was whining that he didn't visit him in the hospital. 

I also could roll with the fact that the Nazis are so arrogant that they didn't think having nukes in America would ever be a problem.

As to the deal John struck, the other younger guy was shown to be relentlessly ambitious. I can buy John was able to capitalize on it. He (the other guy) said enough times he didn't like being in America anyway. And John was taking on most of the risk in having to kill Himmler. 

[Haleth]

I still have 2 episodes to go so I'm still not reading this yet, but never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd be rooting for Kido.  Joel de la Fuente has been knocking it out of the park this season making Kido so much more than a slave to duty.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 12/1/2019 at 7:59 PM, Lillith said:

And yes I thought it was odd they'd leave Harlem empty. In Europe they were very happy to put collaborators, and of course party members in the homes of those who were taken away. They let nothing go to waste. 

I was thinking about that and it made me wonder, how many people in the US would the Reich have murdered? I looked it up and in the 1960's the US was about 15% non-white so those people are all gone. Plus Jewish people and anyone else from any ethnic group they don't like. Plus all the disabled and sick people. Plus everyone who died in the actual war. That is a lot of people so I can see population density even in Manhattan (which would be a lot more racially diverse than most places) being way lower.

As for Harlem specifically maybe the houses stayed empty because no one wanted to move to New York. I mean. I mean it is basically US Nazi HQ so if you happened to be some American who wasn't killed but not a Nazi follower who was just trying to keep your head down and get by, you probably aren't going to move there.

[Haleth]

Ok, finally done.  Like you all I'm confused about the ending.  Who are all these random people wandering through the tunnel like they are on a Pocono holiday?  Where did they come from and why are they so casual about entering a new, unknown world?  It would have been better if Juliana had destroyed the portal.

So Smith's #2 unilaterally decides to stop the bombing, end the war, and repudiate Nazism?  How is that going to work out?

The acting by Sewell, de la Fuente, and Chelah Horsdal was outstanding all season.  Epi 5's flashbacks gave a lot of context for Smith's character and I hoped the glimpse of what might have been would have changed him.  It wasn't until epi 9's big reveal that we learned, nope, he's going to be even worse.  

On 11/16/2019 at 4:38 PM, Aliferously said:

I imagined Kido's son was still a child (didn't he have a phone conversation with him last season? Unless he has more then one son.

He said he had two sons.

On 11/18/2019 at 8:35 AM, jcin617 said:

Childras's final scene is literally just him scurrying out of the room (although I suppose that's fitting for him).

He bought passage to Japan.  I'm imagining that he found Kukiko again and they lived happily ever after.

On 11/24/2019 at 7:41 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm wondering if they wrote themselves into a corner and didn't know really how to end it. It seemed to me they made a huge point of letting us know that alt-Smith didn't have any girls. Then Helen died in the crash, so I figured he was going to send them through and just get out of there. Or even if he ended up dying to make arrangements for them to go through.

I believe that was to make us think it would be a difficult decision for John.  We were meant to think (incorrectly, as it turns out) that he would be torn between the universes.  It never occurred to me that he was actually planning on dragging alt-Thomas to the Nazi world and leaving alt-Helen in unbearable grief.  He really was a monster.

On 11/25/2019 at 11:47 AM, Chaos Theory said:

Helen who also got a semblances of redemption faces her past and that she was just as culpable as John was and that unlike John she wasn’t willing to trap her children in the Reich.

That scene on the train was fantastic.  Great writing that she owned up to her culpability as well as confronting John with his.  I hope Amy can be deprogrammed.

On 11/25/2019 at 10:13 PM, Mrs peel said:

The most interesting thing would be how/whether the 50 state US could be brought back together -

48 states.  At least on Lem's flag.

On 11/28/2019 at 10:05 PM, TimWil said:

And I was very satisfied that both John and Helen eventually paid with their lives. Unlike...hmmm...yeah, Philip and Elizabeth Jennings, I'm looking at you.

Indeed.

On 11/30/2019 at 11:55 PM, txhorns79 said:

One thing that I didn't think was particularly realistic was the Nazis apparently killing off most of the population of Harlem and leaving the area abandoned.  It seemed more likely they would have moved in Aryan families and remade the area to make it seem as though it had never been a place where black people had lived.    

I don't think the population on Manhattan was that high that people would be living that far north?

[DoctorAtomic]

As much as I wanted John to escape, I suppose going to the other universe wasn't particularly interesting to him. He wasn't too enthused that his alter was a traveling salesman. After gaining an independent nazi America, I guess he figured he could start over maybe. Once Helen told him she flipped, I guess he figured there was no way out.

[Hanahope]

Nearly finished S3, it is really disturbing with the whole Jahr Null (year zero), watching them destroy American history, the Lincoln memorial, liberty bell (watching it being melted into a swastika was really emotional). 

I started thinking that even had Germany and Japan won ww2, I don’t think they would have invaded America. I think Germany would have stayed in Europe and Russia, and japan in China and East Indies. Yes the US would have been far weaker, akin to Canada or Mexico, but it just seems a bit too far for either to really assert total control

[DoctorAtomic]

This was all predicated on Germany getting the bomb first and using it on Washington to force surrendur though. 

Japan dominated the pacific at the time of WWII so invading the west coast wouldn't have been a problem with a weakened USA. 

Without any bomb neither country are going to invest in the enormous resources to invade otherwise. 

[Hanahope]

Seeing the Statue of Liberty go was just as bad.  I knew Juliana would travel out.  What will the Nazis do now, if they can’t send legions to other worlds?  Or will they assume most other soldiers died in the other WW2?
 

just started S4.  Sorry to lose Tagomi, he was a good guy.

it occurred to me that in the other world(s) we see, John and Helen only have Thomas, not the girls.  Helen really only wanted Thomas, she really didn’t want other children, but the Reich made her have more.  It explains why she just doesn’t seem as close to the girls, and the girls know their mother isn’t as close to them. 
 

what will John do if Jennifer is tested and is found to be a carrier of the defect?  Send her back to mom or let her die as well?  What will he do with Amy then?

 

 

[Aliferously]

Episodes 7 and 8

- So someone blows up a gas supply ship and the Japanese just pack up and leave? Why has no one considered this notion before? Like 20 years before, I don't know.

- Whoever came up with the episode title "Hitler Only Has One Ball" and the soundtrack thereof must have won an award in the writers room. I liked seeing them let loose for a change. They don't get to use that setting often enough.

- The Childan proposal and wedding were so beautiful. I loved how happy they were.

- I thought the concealed gas chamber was a German thing. Did the Japanese take over their headquarters and never noticed the room full of toys or what it was for?

- Liam in disguise just looked like Liam, glad he chose not to actively participate in that mission. 

- Kido is like a roach and it'll take some very intricate ritualistic ceremony in order for him to die. How many attempts on his life has he survived so far?

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Aliferously

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't think the show was as clear as to the huge hit blowing up the gas supply was. I recall them showing on the map that it basically knocked out all of California.

After it happened, Robert told Kido that the BCR were relentless and whatever the Japanese response was would only strengthen their resolve. They also made references in the prior episodes that Japanese resources were being stretched really thin.

They also mentioned the weapons were from the Chinese. So before that maybe the Chinese weren't in a position to provide them. This is enough for me that I can roll with them leaving.

[Haleth]

Spoiler

 I thought the concealed gas chamber was a German thing. Did the Japanese take over their headquarters and never noticed the room full of toys or what it was for?

No, it belonged to the Japanese. It’s where Kido killed Frank’s family in season 1. 

[Hanahope]

I agree with others that the ending made no sense whatsoever.  I was fine with the conclusion of John and Helen Smith's story line, but the transport tunnel stuff was really what the everloving f?  just blow it up and be done with it, get on with the healing of the US, if you can.  but that completely unexplained crossing over by random people was ridiculous.

I will believe that Childan found his way to his love, he got the boat pass, he made it to Japan.  though it would have been nice for a quick shot of him on the boat with Kido's son.

 

[Aliferously]

Episodes 9 and 10, now I am done. And somewhat confused.

Those people exiting the tunnel, what exactly did they think they were walking into? 

I thought Kido would get more of a comeuppance then whatever it was he was planning to do after his son left. 

Oh, Helen. I pretty much held my breath in that scene with Jennifer. So incredibly well done.

Liam lives. Because there must be light at the end of the proverbial black widow tunnel.

What happens to children of former Nazi leaders when their parents die? What happens to a child like Amy?

I hope Childan found his wife in Japan, it seemed like a cop out to not show us at least that. 

I think it would have been a better finale with an added 20 or so minutes. I felt like they didn't have enough room to properly finish up all these characters so Childan and Jennifer and Amy lost out.

 

 

[Macbeth]

It was a perfect ending for John Smith.  He needed to die.  I am glad the other general is now in charge.  There were enough narrative that he would be supported by disaffected soldiers and officers. 

Rufus Sewall deserves all the praise he got for John.  But to me Chelah Horsdal as Helen was the main star.  She was so fantastic and I found her story completely compelling.  Did she go along with it yes.  But she averted her eyes more than take part of the actual killing unlike her husband. 

And I loved that she took responsibility for her part, understood they had no right to go into another universe to take what they had lost, and was willing to sacrifice herself in order to take out John.  She redeemed herself.

And John was trying to kill her.  She couldn't go into the other universe as she was not dead.  She would be killed.  I find it hard to believe he would forget.  And I don't believe it was a show mistake.  Although given that he lies to himself constantly to ignore the monster that he is - maybe he suppressed it.

As for all of those people who came through the tunnel.  I was WTF myself.  And it appears the creators wanted us to make up our own minds.  

The best theory I saw was these were all of the travelers who could go to different worlds.  They originated in the Nazi world and were able to escape.  But once the American Nazi regime was over they could now come back.

I really like that theory.  

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't know. When those people were coming through, it didn't look like they've been there before. That also means they were people who lost WWII. I think those are people from other universes where the Allies won WWII and they're bringing that to this one.

[Tyro49]

Just finished season 2. One question I don't really understand: where exactly are the films coming from, and how do they get there? I "get" that they're coming from an alternate timeline, but how, where, and why?

[Hanahope]

On 3/28/2020 at 1:27 PM, Tyro49 said:

Just finished season 2. One question I don't really understand: where exactly are the films coming from, and how do they get there? I "get" that they're coming from an alternate timeline, but how, where, and why?

They are brought across by people traveling to the alternative universe.

[benteen]

I finished the season recently and I thought it was a really good season.  Outside of the ridiculous, out-of-nowhere end (sorry writers, making a crazy ending that made no sense isn't honoring Philip K. Dick, it's being creatively lazy), I was pretty satisfied with it.  

Rufus Sewell was the MVP again.  He's done amazing work with such a character.  Episode 5 really put on display the ugliest aspects of Smith's personality and was another reminder why this guy doesn't deserve redemption.  He is an evil man.  But Sewell does amazing work that keeps your enthralled. 

I would say that Chelah Horsdal was a co-MVP.  She really stepped up prominently and held up her end of the storyline.  At least she is able to see what John isn't and does the right thing in the end.

After Rufus Sewell, Joel de la Fuente has been the second best performer on this show.  Like Smith, Kido has done terrible things and I don't think he deserves redemption either.  But de la Fuente has always done great work with the character, giving him a dogged, single-minded determination to get things done that would be admirable if he wasn't the person that he is.  His role in the post-Japanese Pacific States is fitting.  San Francisco has become his home, one he clearly didn't want to leave and it makes sense that he would end up as a power-player in this new world.

The stuff with the BCR was interesting.  I believe they were mentioned towards the end of last year but they should have done a better job setting up the groundwork.  Still, their interactions with the Japanese were compelling.  Given how badly things have been for them, it's understandable they would latch onto anything as an alternative.  But if they think communism is going to work, they'll be in for a rude awakening.

Childan has a nice storyline and Brennan Brown has always done a great job with the character.  He (and DJ Qualls in previous seasons) have always added much well-needed comic relief to the show.

It was fun to see some familiar faces pop up in guest roles this season.  David Harewood from Supergirl as the leader of the BCR as well as Rachel Nichols as Helen's bodyguard.

Issues with the season...the lack of Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa as Tagomi.  To the show's credit, they really did a good job with his glaring absence from the show but it was glaring.  He should have at least had an on-camera death scene where you actually see him.  I guess it was a scheduling conflict with Lost in Space?  But how didn't they shore him up as he was a lead?  Tagomi was one of the most compelling characters on this show and was definitely missed.

Also missed was DJ Qualls.  At the end of last season, it looked like him and Childan would start working with the Resistance but this year Ed is gone without a word.  I guess he went back to the Neutral Zone.

Another complaint in Season 5 was the line that Patton was at the handover of West Point to the Nazis.  Patton, really?  He would have gone down fighting, not handing over West Point.

If there was something holding back The Man in the High Castle from being "elite" television, it was probably the actors playing Juliana, Frank and Joe.  They were the weakest links of Season 1.  By Season 2, they had stepped up because they were given better storylines.  I liked Juliana kind of becoming the new Man in the High Castle with the book she created with the real history of the world in it.  It makes it very much like book where the films were indeed a book.  But her character still seemed to move around from place to place looking for a storyline and it's clear the focus continued to be with the most interesting character on the show, John Smith.  Smith and Kido were the best characters on the show and were able to carry it in a way Juliana, Frank and Joe never were.

Really enjoyed the final season and the series itself.

Edited July 15, 2020 by benteen

[Tyro49]

I had wondered from the beginning whether the show would end with all the "worlds" collapsing into one reality, ours. (The "real" world.) Is that what we were seeing happening? Julianna said she felt "something" was coming; was that it?

The differences with our world seem to have started with the assassination of FDR before he ever became president. No "lend-lease" to England or Russia, no other covert assistance in the war before we were attacked. Maybe that is what made the difference in outcome.

I thought alt-Julianna  simply died in a car crash before this Julianna "traveled" there. At that time it was Tagomi who was the traveler, not her. It could still have been the same world.

Again, the ending. It reminded me of the scene in The 4400 when the stunned abductees suddenly returned. These people did not seem aware of where they were or of the resistance people standing all around them. They just passed through - and I assumed on out of the tunnels as they did not clog up the relatively small control room.  Also, while Julianna was smiling Liam looked thoroughly puzzled.

Thoughts?