Felicity Smoak: Bitch With Wifi

[tv echo]

Upfront - I respect everyone's opinions (agree or disagree). Here's mine...

 

I was fine with Felicity being discontented in suburbia and with her keeping secret from Oliver the fact that she was working with TA.  If she had been perfectly content just living with Oliver and doing nothing else (no work, no hobbies, no interests, nothing), then she would've been criticized as a woman who only needs a man to make her happy and only joining TA in the past because of Oliver. 

 

Her keeping secret her work with TA and having to lie to Oliver to maintain that secret was done for unselfish reasons and not because she didn't want his judgment.  She wanted Oliver to have as much time as possible to stay happy and heal.  If she had told him, he would've started worrying about Thea, Diggle, etc.  I think that she would've told him eventually and that, deep down, she knew their idyllic life was going to end at some point.

Edited November 3, 2015 by tv echo

[hogwash]

I love all this discussion but I really have the same reaction I did when I was still watching S03. It's like that running gag from Arrested Development. Him? Really?? They jumbled and contorted their fan favorite's well-established characterization for HIM?! 

[Guest]

I love all this discussion but I really have the same reaction I did when I was still watching S03. It's like that running gag from Arrested Development. Him? Really?? They jumbled and contorted their fan favorite's well-established characterization for HIM?! 

 

They didn't just to do it with Felicity though. I mean, John Diggle thought they should give Roy over to the Police when he thought he killed Sara. I never pictured him doing that, especially without evidence. And Felicity also threw her friend Sara under the bus to prop Laurel and the 'light inside her' like whaaaat?! So much OOC everywhere. 

[dtissagirl]

I love all this discussion but I really have the same reaction I did when I was still watching S03. It's like that running gag from Arrested Development. Him? Really?? They jumbled and contorted their fan favorite's well-established characterization for HIM?! 

 

This. I think I can pretty much accept everything, and then immediately afterwards handwave everything about Felicity in Palmer Island because that's my reaction too. HIM?! Come the fuck on, Bridget. Plus, Felicity was put into that storyline for 99.9% external reasons, so I choose to react to it accordingly.

 

"But WHY did Felicity <insert any action here> re: Palmer?"

 

"Because spinoff."

 

And we know it's coming back AGAIN in S4 because she now knows Creepy is alive and stalking her phone. I'm gonna accept everything she does, and then handwave everything again because it GETS CREEPY OUT OF THE SHOW, WHEEE. *throws confetti*

[hogwash]

They didn't just to do it with Felicity though. I mean, John Diggle thought they should give Roy over to the Police when he thought he killed Sara. I never pictured him doing that, especially without evidence. And Felicity also threw her friend Sara under the bus to prop Laurel and the 'light inside her' like whaaaat?! So much OOC everywhere. 

 

S03 screwed with every character, but my objection/confusion was more with Palmer Island. I get why Ray/Felicity happened (a stall Oliver/Felicity for Ollie Al Ghul and a way to establish Ray as a desirable male lead or something). Felicity's gross light comment is because the showrunners thought (stupidly) that we'd believe it coming from her thereby accepting(?) Laurel despite the identity stealing and unclear motivations. Diggle telling Oliver not to tell Thea he was the Arrow or the Roy thing to set up some tension for those boring Oliver conflicts. I can pretty much think of plot, plot, plot reasons behind most of S03's wonky characterizations. Not that I want to put any thought into S03 (we all know the show barely did...). But that plot was Sara's murder, Laurel stealing a mask, and the LOA/Ollie Al Ghul. Palmer Island and its version of Felicity was its own thing. Hence, HIM??

Edited November 3, 2015 by hogwash

[AyChihuahua]

 

to establish Ray as a desirable male lead

I just had actual IRL heebie-jeebie shivers from that phrase.  There isn't enough BLECCH in the world.

[hogwash]

Right?! Poor Felicity.

[KenyaJ]

"But WHY did Felicity <insert any action here> re: Palmer?"

 

"Because spinoff."

 

Amen. Sometimes you just have to acknowledge the off screen reasons for on screen actions and just handwave them away for the sake of your sanity.

[calliope1975]

Also, she lied so there would be a ~twist~ that gave me that scene. Which is my #1 TOP FAVORITEST EVER MOST REWATCHED EVER Oliver/Felicity scene of all times, so in a way, I'm super glad she lied, or I wouldn't have "Felicity, you said there wasn't even email on Bali!", and that line is the greatest thing that ever came out of Oliver's mouth.

 

It also gave me what might be my most favorite physical reaction from Oliver with the incredulous arm flail. 

 

[lemotomato]

It also gave me what might be my most favorite physical reaction from Oliver with the incredulous arm flail. 

 

I like to think the flailing is Felicity's influence on him.

#somarried

Edited November 4, 2015 by lemotomato

[BkWurm1]

I think that while it's good that Felicity and Oliver as a romantic pair aren't front and center all the time, I think they've in the last couple episodes cut back too much on what would be natural reactions.  Like when Oliver found out that she fought off Double Down by shooting up the lair.  He looked shocked and concerned but I wanted TOUCHING!  Not getting so much a hand to the shoulder left me feeling that not getting a better reaction was out of character.  I need the shmoop factor turned up just a bit to keep me happy.  I counting on 4-6 to make up for the drought.  The little back ground stuff is only enough if there is enough of it and the last couple episodes hasn't been enough for me. 

 

I wonder if that might contribute to some concerns about Felicity not being attentive enough toward the man, Oliver Queen rather than just the team.  They haven't given her the moments to show her feelings overtly since he gave her a fern and a lunch bag. 

[kismet]

I wasn't trying to suggest that EBR must be above all criticism. Again, it's fair not to agree with certain choices from the actor. But in this case I don't think it holds. Like, (and I am really not doing this to compare the actresses or claim one is superior to the other - even if in my opinion she is) I get pointing out KC's blank face, or her arm crossed and bitchy face when the situation in the scene doesn't require for any of that. That, I get being seen as  puzzling acting choices. There's no need for her to act like that. But your only reason to question EBR's acting comes to her reaction to hearing Ray's presumed last words, and I personally think it's due to your profound dislike for Ray, and wishing Felicity were as unaffected by him as you are. And that, is not supported by the story being told. 

As for Felicity and Oliver, whatever doubt you may be getting about her, again, it's in the script. It's the script that says Feliciy lied to him while they were away, not EBR's decision.

 

BTW, I'm not trying to change your mind or convince you that my point of view is right and yours isn't. I get disliking a character so much you wish your faves were as far from them as possible. I wish Thea, Diggle, Felicity and Oliver  avoided Laurel like the plague. But I don't think it's fair to put it on the actors. They just do their job, and their job is to give their interpretation of how said characters react to things. And I think it's completely normal for Felicity to cry while hearing Ray's voice; if the one dead were Roy, I have no doubt she would have cried in that instance as well. 

I question a lot of EBRs acting, not just related to RP. RP is just the strongest reaction because her relationship, interactions, narrative & plot related to and as a result of RP to me makes the least about a sense from a writing and an acting perspective, so therefore it is the most open for criticism in my opinion. And the fault lies in both the writers and the actors hands. As a lot of people mentioned it was done for plot and spinoff reasons, so some stuff can be handwaved. But imo that is not their agenda, they (TPTB & EBR) sincerely believed in the F/R arc as a genuine and valid arc. I don't mind that she cried in 404, but after seeing a whole season of EBR crying in s3 - I can say IMO it was EBR's delivery of the crying in 404 that was off-putting, not the fact that FS as character did & would cry.

 

I did not like her chair slipping bit in the last episode. I do not believe that FS has ever been shown as clumsy or that overtly intentionally funny. FS does things that makes people laugh, but she is not someone who intentionally does something funny for attention - which is what that chair scene felt like to me.  EBR is naturally funny, but its better when its just observed and not forced, some of her gags are feeling forced since s3&4. I didn't like her placing her hand on her shoulder to set-up the Thea gag (but that might night be her). A lot of her casual and non-scripted interactions just haven't been what I l've enjoyed in s4. SA/OQ is casually touching or shadowing FS, while FS/EBR does not seem to do that as much as she did in s2 and parts of s3.

 

I may be in the minority but beyond them being adorable at times on a script level, I don't really care for how she is interacting with CH. She is his superior and she vacillates between at times acting like his bestie and other times his superior, its off putting. I have had over-friendly superiors, but that to me is not what she is portraying. I was not impressed with her attitude (script)  & body language (actor) towards the board in 402, it seemed a little too unprofessional, when FS to me has always been professional. I've been less impressed with CEOFelicity on the the whole. SO there are other acting choices that I question, they are just not as systemic as her interactions w/ RP. Also s4 is still new, so I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt where I have about 20 episodes of R/F to pick from for examples.

 

Honestly, I just want to like FS as much as I did in s1&2. S3 caused some serious damage to the foundation of her character on a writing & acting level. I don't want to have to question everything as having some ulterior motive, or me needing to handwave or fanwank. I'm tired of trying to figure out how much of her behavior I don't like is because PROT & spin-off vs how much is because of character evolution. But for me I'm getting worried that the trend might be character evolution on both a script and acting level. At the end of the day, I don't like FS as much as I did before s3 and that to me falls on both the writers and the actor. We can agree to disagree on who to place the blame on.

Edited November 4, 2015 by kismet

[theacostov]

I mean I'm really glad they're not all over each other all the time because I'm not a huge pda fan. But it's been too long since even a kiss (ha I know it's only been 2 episodes but it feels longer). The salmon ladder scene was a perfect moment for a kiss- they were fanservicing, they should have gone the full hog! I would even say it was highly OOC that felicity kept her hands off him in that scene.

[kismet]

At least a peck or something, even tapping him with the folders in her hands. Now she has permission to freely touch him post Sally, and she touches her forehead instead?

 

I wouldn't say it was an OOC moment, but it felt like a failed in-character opportunity.

[theacostov]

At least a peck or something, even tapping him with the folders in her hands. Now she has permission to freely touch him post Sally, and she touches her forehead instead?

I wouldn't say it was an OOC moment, but it felt like a failed in-character opportunity.

I didn't really mean OOC. But I mean he's right there shirtless felicity! I may be projecting...

[Guest]

I don't know, the only acting choice I didn't really like from EBR this season so far was the way she held her hand up by her chest so Thea could see that she wasn't wearing a ring. It looked like she forgot to do it and then awkwardly just lifted her hand. But it wasn't really a big deal though. It's not something I focus on, unlike KC's decision to cross her arms all the time. That is so distracting and often out of place in a scene.

 

Her CEO moments have been fine. I feel like she vacillates between trying to be a friend and trying to be a superior because she's never been in such a position of authority before so I assume she hasn't figured out that balance and that totally works for me. The only moment I found slightly off-putting was when she walked into the room and said "Is that anyway to greet your CEO" or something along those lines and then kind of pointed to herself up and down. But again, these are such small moments I just have a second of 'Uh ok' and then just move on.

 

I think we can find fault in everyone's acting choices, not just EBR's.

 

 

I think that while it's good that Felicity and Oliver as a romantic pair aren't front and center all the time, I think they've in the last couple episodes cut back too much on what would be natural reactions.  Like when Oliver found out that she fought off Double Down by shooting up the lair.  He looked shocked and concerned but I wanted TOUCHING!  Not getting so much a hand to the shoulder left me feeling that not getting a better reaction was out of character.  I need the shmoop factor turned up just a bit to keep me happy.  I counting on 4-6 to make up for the drought.  The little back ground stuff is only enough if there is enough of it and the last couple episodes hasn't been enough for me. 

 

I wonder if that might contribute to some concerns about Felicity not being attentive enough toward the man, Oliver Queen rather than just the team.  They haven't given her the moments to show her feelings overtly since he gave her a fern and a lunch bag. 

 

 

Agreed. I'm very happy with the way they're handling Olicity and I don't need PDA all the time. But the shipper in me would have loved Oliver to maybe cradle her face or touch her in some way after the incident with Double Down. I heard the worry in his voice but a little reassurance through touch wouldn't have gone amiss.

 

Also, I'm not sure how anyone could say Felicity's not being attentive enough when she's usually the one nuzzling his shoulder or hanging off his arm. If anything, I'd say Oliver could be more attentive and affectionate. I feel we've only really seen that from him in 401 when it was setting them up as a real couple to the audience. But this is just me being picky. It's really not a big deal.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Guest

[looptab]

I question a lot of EBRs acting, not just related to RP. RP is just the strongest reaction because her relationship, interactions, narrative & plot related to and as a result of RP to me makes the least about a sense from a writing and an acting perspective, so therefore it is the most open for criticism in my opinion. And the fault lies in both the writers and the actors hands. As a lot of people mentioned it was done for plot and spinoff reasons, so some stuff can be handwaved. But imo that is not their agenda, they (TPTB & EBR) sincerely believed in the F/R arc as a genuine and valid arc. I don't mind that she cried in 404, but after seeing a whole season of EBR crying in s3 - I can say IMO it was EBR's delivery of the crying in 404 that was off-putting, not the fact that FS as character did & would cry.

 

I did not like her chair slipping bit in the last episode. I do not believe that FS has ever been shown as clumsy or that overtly intentionally funny. FS does things that makes people laugh, but she is not someone who intentionally does something funny for attention - which is what that chair scene felt like to me.  EBR is naturally funny, but its better when its just observed and not forced, some of her gags are feeling forced since s3&4. I didn't like her placing her hand on her shoulder to set-up the Thea gag (but that might night be her). A lot of her casual and non-scripted interactions just haven't been what I l've enjoyed in s4. SA/OQ is casually touching or shadowing FS, while FS/EBR does not seem to do that as much as she did in s2 and parts of s3.

 

I may be in the minority but beyond them being adorable at times on a script level, I don't really care for how she is interacting with CH. She is his superior and she vacillates between at times acting like his bestie and other times his superior, its off putting. I have had over-friendly superiors, but that to me is not what she is portraying. I was not impressed with her attitude (script)  & body language (actor) towards the board in 402, it seemed a little too unprofessional, when FS to me has always been professional. I've been less impressed with CEOFelicity on the the whole. SO there are other acting choices that I question, they are just not as systemic as her interactions w/ RP. Also s4 is still new, so I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt where I have about 20 episodes of R/F to pick from for examples.

 

Honestly, I just want to like FS as much as I did in s1&2. S3 caused some serious damage to the foundation of her character on a writing & acting level. I don't want to have to question everything as having some ulterior motive, or me needing to handwave or fanwank. I'm tired of trying to figure out how much of her behavior I don't like is because PROT & spin-off vs how much is because of character evolution. But for me I'm getting worried that the trend might be character evolution on both a script and acting level. At the end of the day, I don't like FS as much as I did before s3 and that to me falls on both the writers and the actor. We can agree to disagree on who to place the blame on.

I thought that the scene with the board conveyed Felicity being out of her element, and being a little flustered, though she managed to succeed in the end. The chair bit didn't come off to me as Felicity trying to be funny, some people slip even though they're not clumsy? I guess it happens.

As for the Ray/Felicity relationship, well, of course she couldn't half-ass her interpretation or put a disclaimer "It's just until he gets a spin-off and it's the right time for Felicity to get with Oliver". 

 

I'm sorry, you mentioned this vibe you were getting from EBR in relation to Oliver and Felicity. I wondered what it might be since it's something I have not noticed in relation to the two of them. From the examples you brought in your previous posts I didn't understand it was more of a general problem you had with EBR's acting.

Not sure how you can distinguish what is scripted and what isn't this early in the season's run, so on this we'll definitely have to agree to disagree. I hope you'll find reasons to like the character as you did before S3. :)

 

P.S. Can we please write Curtis whole name? Every time I read CH my mind goes to Colton Haynes, hahah.

Edited November 4, 2015 by looptab

[BkWurm1]

The Chair Incident for me wasn't anything to do with Felicity suddenly being clumsy, it was IMO a perfect way to show that the new lair while pretty and shiny was still a work in progress and would take some time to get used to after her having had her perfect chair before.  It also seemed very reasonable to me since up on that plexi-glass stage, I bet the floor is slippery. One thing I would definitely say it that it was not set up as Felicity TRYING to be funny.  It wasn't a deliberate gag by the character, I'm positive of that.   

 

It was EBR trying to be find some humor but it's just something that happened to Felicity.  I actually liked that moment of reality (new equipment and new environment) getting in the way.

 

Felicity has been trying to find a balance between being head honcho and super friendly and open.  She's constantly erasing the lines and then redrawing them between her and Curtis but at this point it's all a pretense.  Dude is not intimidated by the "boss" act.  Personally I wish they'd let her stop playing that card because it in the long term comes off as if she is insecure but since she probably IS insecure in what she's doing I don't have an issue with it.   

[Guest]

Haha, as soon as I saw that plexi-glass stage I thought Felicity might slip in her high heels!

 

You know, talking about Felicity as CEO, I'd actually really like it if we got a scene of her voicing her insecurities and worries about whether she could do the job. Because this is a new career route for her and not something she explicitly wanted or asked for and to be in control of a multi-million dollar corporation surely must weigh on her. I think a short scene of her saying to Oliver "I don't know if I can do this" or "I feel like I'm failing" or something along those lines would be really great. 

[kismet]

I thought that the scene with the board conveyed Felicity being out of her element, and being a little flustered, though she managed to succeed in the end. The chair bit didn't come off to me as Felicity trying to be funny, some people slip even though they're not clumsy? I guess it happens.

As for the Ray/Felicity relationship, well, of course she couldn't half-ass her interpretation or put a disclaimer "It's just until he gets a spin-off and it's the right time for Felicity to get with Oliver". 

 

I'm sorry, you mentioned this vibe you were getting from EBR in relation to Oliver and Felicity. I wondered what it might be since it's something I have not noticed in relation to the two of them. From the examples you brought in your previous posts I didn't understand it was more of a general problem you had with EBR's acting.

Not sure how you can distinguish what is scripted and what isn't this early in the season's run, so on this we'll definitely have to agree to disagree. I hope you'll find reasons to like the character as you did before S3. :)

 

P.S. Can we please write Curtis whole name? Every time I read CH my mind goes to Colton Haynes, hahah.

Will do about Curtis... hopefully he can just be Mr. Terrific soon & then perhaps I'll go with MrT.

 

Yeah, I had tried not to mention a lot of the examples from s4 because it is still new and it is hard to differentiate at times who is responsible for what on an acting/writing level. S3 had a lot more concrete examples, unfortunately a lot of them were then RP based, since that was a large chunk of her story in s3. I really do like to be fair when I make posts. So if I had an issue with a performance, I tried to keep it to the episode threads. But there was some crossover for me from some of the s3 characteristics & s4 which is why I brought it to the character thread. But the line is blurry at times, esp when EBR has been known to elevate rather crappy writing time after time. In fact some of her moments in s3 where the only ray ;) of hope that there was a light at the end of the dark tunnel :)

 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed they get FS back to a place I love her. Overall, I am really liking s4 as a whole lot better than s3. And I think once they focus back on Arrow & not LOT it will get better. I think EBR & the writers hit it so far out of the park in s1&2, that I have such high standards & expectations for them. I just don't want to be disappointed again like I was in s3.

[Ceylon5]

How weird is Felicity's life?

 

First she dates Cooper, whose death she mourns for 5 years, before he pops up again, still very much alive.

 

Then she goes on a date with Barry, only to have him struck by lightning a couple of days later and go into a coma for 6 months.  But... then he wakes up, perfectly fine and super-powered into the bargain.

 

Then she goes on part of a date with Oliver, only to have him die on her a couple of months later.  This time, though, she only has to mourn him for a couple of months before he pops up on her TV, definitely not dead.

 

And then she dates Ray briefly, only to have him die a few weeks after they break up.  And now she finds out he's totally not dead either.

 

Poor girl.  I wouldn't be surprised if she were getting a complex.  Especially since the only one of the 4 to contact her to let her know they weren't dead was Ray.  Cooper, who supposedly loved her, just let her think he was dead, for reasons I'm not clear on.  Barry never contacted her after he woke up, even though to him only a few days had gone by since he last spoke to her and he knew she'd care - so again for reasons I'm not clear on (and it was especially egregious given that he contacted Oliver).  Oliver, who had just told her he loved her, didn't bother to find a way to get in touch with her ASAP to let her know he was alive, but he did manage to track down his Arrow suit and make a big entrance in Starling, so that she could find out from the news.  Nice one, Oliver.  So yeah, no reason given there either.  But all that happened in season 3 (when Roy also inexplicably let Thea think he was dead), AKA the season of atrocious writing, so I guess that's explanation enough.  We're in season 4 now, so maybe we're onto better and brighter things?  Here's hoping!

 

Still, I'm thinking Felicity should be very sceptical about any and all deaths from here on out.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Ceylon5

[Advance35]

Wow.  That was some episode.

 

First let me say that Felicity can be a really nasty bitch sometimes.   That's not completely a bad thing, we all have that side to us, but good lord can this girl be unpleasant when she gets in the zone and I think that is shown a lot when people who are especially intelligent in a certain area go up against something they can't easily overcome, at least that's how that personality type is portrayed in television.

 

I liked it because it showed me that in a way that's very different from Oliver, Felicity is just as bad at relationships.   The dark side of her quips is that when frustrated, it can turn into SCATHING snark.   I like that though she continues to underestimate and sometimes dismiss her mother, Donna is still able to school Felicity on things she doesn't realize.   Showing Felicity and the audience that as brilliant as she is, she doesn't know everything.

 

Her chemistry with Oliver remains awesome, and their closing scene was awesome.   Understated, mature, romantic and it was heading towards hot but they moved to a different scene. lol.

 

And can i just say EBR has gotten MUCH better at drama.   I thought her work was wonderful this episode.   I think her bedroom scenes with Oliver and Donna will go down as some of my favorite Felicity scenes ever.

[AyChihuahua]

First let me say that Felicity can be a really nasty bitch sometimes.   That's not completely a bad thing, we all have that side to us, but good lord can this girl be unpleasant when she gets in the zone and I think that is shown a lot when people who are especially intelligent in a certain area go up against something they can't easily overcome, at least that's how that personality type is portrayed in television.

 

I liked it because it showed me that in a way that's very different from Oliver, Felicity is just as bad at relationships.   The dark side of her quips is that when frustrated, it can turn into SCATHING snark.   I like that though she continues to underestimate and sometimes dismiss her mother, Donna is still able to school Felicity on things she doesn't realize.   Showing Felicity and the audience that as brilliant as she is, she doesn't know everything.

Yeah, I didn't really like her tonight.  I still love her, but I didn't really like her.  

[statsgirl]

I think I liked her more than I ever have before.  She was snarky* but good lord, Oliver should  have known better than to let Donna anywhere near Felicity when she was in this kind of a state.  Even if they had understood each other perfectly, the last thing Felicity, focused like she's never had to before, needed was to have Donna in town wanting to take her out for mani-pedis.

 

Oliver and Felicity are still trying to figure things out with each other.

 

*I think maybe I didn't mind Felicity because my mother was even more snarky and my father loved her for it.

[Cerulean Blue]

I really liked Felicity in tonight's episode, even when she was being pretty mean and kind of terrible to Oliver. Especially because Oliver, as nice as he was trying to be, wasn't exactly paying attention to what Felicity actually needed. Like, he knows how stressed out her mother makes her, so inviting her mom to town right when Felicity was freaking out wasn't particularly helpful. And then his somewhat amused dismissal of her stress about finding Ray--I could see how that could be super-frustrating from her point of view. It always sucks when something is super-important to you and other people are sort of blasé about it. So, yeah, Felicity was snappish and frustrated with Oliver, but I don't blame her for that. Sometimes, having someone tell you to just calm down and relax when you're really stressed is annoying as hell. 

 

And I really liked that she confronted the fact that she just took off with Oliver at the end of last season, dropping everything for him when he (finally) decided he wanted to be with her. For all of the faults of season 3, I did like that Felicity's storyline involved her examining her own reasons for being part of the team and sort of coming into her own in that regard. I understood why she was so happy to drive off into the sunset, but it also felt a little abrupt considering all of the angst and stress that had come before. So it makes sense to me that she's now realizing that she just jumped all in with Oliver, living the life he wanted to live because of how much she loved him. But now she's had some time to think about it and to realize that she didn't want that same life--and that that's okay (even if she probably feels guilty about it). 

 

Lastly, I loved that she and Oliver worked through it and that she and Donna had a chance to talk about Felicity's abandonment issues. Arrow has a tendency to zip too quickly through storylines and character development--and it definitely could have spent a lot more time on Felicity's ambivalence about going all in with a man who has a tendency to run away, particularly given her history--but I bought that all of this had been brewing under the surface all season for her and that Ray's distress signal was just the catalyst that brought all of it to a head. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by Cerulean Blue

[Chaser]

Felicity was so human in this episode. I'm giddy with it. 

[Guest]

I'm pretty happy that they wrote Felicity this way. Yes, it was uncomfortable to watch and I still would have liked an apology from her to Oliver, but I liked how real she was. She was so mean and snappy and took out her fears and guilt and insecurities on the one person she loves the most. Literally everyone does that at some point in their lives. 

 

Finally Felicity was allowed to make mistakes and not be perfect all the time. Not to say she was perfect before but I was growing tired of people saying she was a Mary Sue. This episode proved the total opposite to me.

 

I don't really want to see her be so mean again though. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by Guest

[Password]

You know ironically now that she had this neurotic episode people are saying Oliver and Felicity aren't healthy because of how she snapped at him.

#CantWinEver

[Guest]

You know ironically now that she had this neurotic episode people are saying Oliver and Felicity aren't healthy because of how she snapped at him.

#CantWinEver

 

Meh. If they think that they never liked Olicity in the first place. Whatevs. Can't please them all.

 

This episode proved that they're healthy because they actually talked about their issues instead of hiding behind it. They cleared the air (even if it wasn't done the way we all would have hoped with a proper apology). You don't get much healthier than that.

[AyChihuahua]

You know ironically now that she had this neurotic episode people are saying Oliver and Felicity aren't healthy because of how she snapped at him.

 

Ha!  As opposed to his relationship with Laurel, in which he banged her sister and every other woman he met?  I didn't particularly like her tonight, and him thinking she was going to dump him really saddened me, but their relationship is 1000x healthier than Oliver and Laurel.

[looptab]

So, some people have brought up how they don't like how Beth Schwartz writes Felicity (you know who you are!) ;)

Would you mind explaining what is it exactly you don't like? Honest question, I'd really like to hear more of your thoughts on this :)

[Ceylon5]

So, some people have brought up how they don't like how Beth Schwartz writes Felicity (you know who you are!) ;)

Would you mind explaining what is it exactly you don't like? Honest question, I'd really like to hear more of your thoughts on this :)

 

I suspect it's because she's responsible for some episodes that have been very controversial with respect to Felicity's characterisation, such as S02E14 (Time of Death) and S03E07 (Draw Back Your Bow).  On the other hand, she's also responsible for wonderful episodes like S02E06 (the one when OTA went to Russia).

 

I actually like what she does with Felicity for the most part, because she's never afraid to let Felicity be human and imperfect.  I feel that without her episodes, Felicity would be a much less complex character.  I don't need or want Felicity to be likeable all the time, because very, very few people are.  That she maintains her sense of humour and optimism 95% of the time - and under incredibly trying circumstances - is a tribute to her, but that she occasionally loses it makes her more real. 

 

And for her to take out her pent up feelings on Oliver is appropriate, because I think she has to have been suppressing a whole bunch of Season 3 Oliver-induced insecurities and pain over the last 6 months of honeymooning.  Based on what he put her through, and given how their relationship started, how could she not fear that he's going to bail on her the moment things stop being perfect?  It seems to me that Felicity has spent the first months of their relationship sublimating her own needs and desires to Oliver's because she was too afraid of losing him to simply say, "Oliver, honey, I'm bored out of my skull.  I hate the suburbs, our neighbours are soooo dull, and I need a lot more mental stimulation than I'm currently getting.  All the sex is great and all, but I want my life back, please and thank you."  She left her life because that's what he wanted and needed, and she kept her remote vigilante-ing a secret because she didn't want to dent his happiness in his new-found freedom.  Basically, she's been supportive and giving to a fault, and something was bound to give eventually.  This episode, it finally did. 

 

Felicity may love Oliver to distraction, but that doesn't mean she can't also harbour some of the same anger towards him that Diggle did.  And because she wasn't dealing with it, it found an outlet when she was too tired and stressed to keep pretending it wasn't there.  Until Oliver made her talk about it, she didn't even really know what she was actually upset about, and even then, she blamed herself and her choices rather than him.  But at the end of the day, he was the one who forced her to make those choices, because of his "all or nothing" attitude.  He made it either/or, when she wanted both her life and him.

 

I think this episode helped to even out their relationship a bit.  Felicity maybe doesn't feel so much like she has to tiptoe around Oliver for fear that if she rocks the boat (or someone with a bomb rocks it for her), he'll take off on her.  Oliver may appear to be more "all in" from an audience perspective, but Felicity is the one who has never had any control in their relationship up until now and has never hesitated to say yes when Oliver asked her to be with him.  It's always been Oliver choosing to be with her, then not be with her, then be with her... and so on and so forth.  I think now it's finally at a point where they both realise that they're both equally invested in making it work.  That's a great step forward.  I also think this was the writers' shorthand for, "yes, we know that Oliver and Felicity must have a ton of issues from what happened in season 3 that they need to work out, but we're mostly pretending season 3 didn't happen, so here's the CliffsNotes version of them sorting out the messy way their relationship started".  So, while Oliver may not have done much this episode to earn Felicity's wrath, that doesn't mean that she doesn't have a ton of pent up (and very much deserved) wrath boiling about waiting for an opportune time to come out and spill all over him.  That's realistic to me.  And if this is Felicity at her very worst (which they were implying it was), then IMO her worst is very, very, very mild.

[dtissagirl]

And if this is Felicity at her very worst (which they were implying it was), then IMO her worst is very, very, very mild.

 

I agree with this.

 

I'm also resigned with the fact that the narrative doesn't think that Felicity's cruel streak is a fatal flaw that needs fixing. Because I'm pretty sure it's not gonna be fixed. They use the fact that Felicity lashes out under pressure as the way to bring her internal thoughts to the fold. And so far, every time that it happened, was so she could figure out what she was feeling --  the lashing out is the vehicle for all of her internalized shit to be made known to herself as much as the others.

 

I don't particularly enjoy watching her being passive aggressive, because she goes WAY overboard on the meanness scale, but I do love it that it makes her a much more complex character.

Edited November 12, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Guest]

So, some people have brought up how they don't like how Beth Schwartz writes Felicity (you know who you are!) ;)

Would you mind explaining what is it exactly you don't like? Honest question, I'd really like to hear more of your thoughts on this :)

 

It's not all the time and every instance but the episodes Beth has written where Felicity features prominently rather than as a background team player as usual, she tends to over exaggerate some things.

 

In 214 where they were fighting the Clock King I hated how Felicity wore Sara's leather jacket out in the field (embarrassing) and the whole wanting to be Oliver's girl made me uncomfortable even though I understood the intent behind that scene. Personally I've never felt like Felicity was longing after Oliver (even though she clearly liked and had feelings for him) but this episode kind of blurred that line for me. As much as I enjoyed seeing some of her insecurities being explored, or at least touched on, it didn't ring 100% true for the same woman who is usually so confident in her abilities. I mean, this is a woman who told Walter, the CEO, that he would be stupid for firing her because she was basically running the IT department and she was the best the company had. And that was way back in early s1. Now suddenly she's feeling insecure because another woman joined the team? No. Nuh-uh. Nope.

 

And then Beth also wrote 307 which was the introduction of Pod! Felicity and her being wowed by designer dresses and million dollar necklaces and CAN WE NOT? That whole episode was a mess for Felicity. Just awful. I hated how much they changed her so Ray was a viable love interest. Yuck.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Guest

[Carrie Ann]

From the episode thread:

Felicity is one of my favorite characters, and I totally understand that her tendency to say cruel things in the heat of the moment gives her more layers than just the personality of a cheery sidekick and loving girlfriend. But what bothered me in this episode was the frequency and degree of that meanness. [...] If I take other characters to task for unfairly kicking Oliver around, I'm not going to excuse my favorite character when she does it too.

 

 

I'm also resigned with the fact that the narrative doesn't think that Felicity's cruel streak is a fatal flaw that needs fixing. Because I'm pretty sure it's not gonna be fixed. They use the fact that Felicity lashes out under pressure as the way to bring her internal thoughts to the fold. And so far, every time that it happened, was so she could figure out what she was feeling --  the lashing out is the vehicle for all of her internalized shit to be made known to herself as much as the others.

 

I don't particularly enjoy watching her being passive aggressive, because she goes WAY overboard on the meanness scale, but I do love it that it makes her a much more complex character.

 

I'm not ready to resign to that yet, I guess, and maybe that's part of why this is bothering me so much. I don't find this behavior funny or cute or fiery or whatever. (Not saying you, or anyone here do, but the writers kind of seem to.) I don't find it okay in myself; I don't find it okay in others. "Common" doesn't equal okay. In my posts in this thread from last season and the hiatus when I went in on Felicity's faults--the meanness being one of them--the point was that yes, I want to see those acknowledged by the show, because they make her human and a more fully-developed character, and I didn't like to see fans deny or ignore that behavior for that reason. I definitely don't think that will be an issue after this episode! That's one positive to come out of it for me.

 

But Step 2 is the actual acknowledgement, and I guess Step 3 is to show some growth on that front. To allow someone other than Oliver to be wrong sometimes, and to develop as a result. I guess it was too much to ask to see movement on that in this episode, but I would have at least liked an acknowledgment from Felicity. A "mini gargantuan freak-out" doesn't equal "was really cruel to you, specifically," for me. I got taken to task earlier in this thread, in fact, for using the word "cruel" in relation to Felicity, but that's exactly what she felt like, to me. I was really hoping Felicity wasn't going to take her spin on the shitting-on-Oliver-for-things-that-aren't-his-fault ride, but she sure did.

 

As far as the question about Beth Schwartz: prior to this, my least favorite episodes for Felicity were Time of Death (though I really disliked everyone in this ep other than Dig), Draw Back Your Bow, and Canaries. Beth is now responsible for three of four. I think she writes Felicity to be more scowly, snarky, insecure, childish, and shallow than she is shown in most other episodes. She feels off, to me, and I'm not sure I can be more specific than that. Like she's off when she's on The Flash, in a different way. And obviously BS's credits are much deeper and I've certainly liked Felicity in plenty of her other episodes. But it seems like when Felicity has a lot of focus, and she writes the ep, I tend not to like her take on the character. Plus "we found ourselves in each other" is cheesy as hell. Thank God SA and EBR can sell this stuff.

 

ETA: Forgot about Suicidal Tendencies, which I also did not love Felicity in AT ALL. So BS is 3 out of 5. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Password]

Oh my gosh yes! That line is ridiculous!! I can't watch the scene without stopping and mocking/laughing at it.

[Guest]

I'm not ready to resign to that yet, I guess, and maybe that's part of why this is bothering me so much. I don't find this behavior funny or cute or fiery or whatever. (Not saying you, or anyone here do, but the writers kind of seem to.) I don't find it okay in myself; I don't find it okay in others. "Common" doesn't equal okay. In my posts in this thread from last season and the hiatus when I went in on Felicity's faults--the meanness being one of them--the point was that yes, I want to see those acknowledged by the show, because they make her human and a more fully-developed character, and I didn't like to see fans deny or ignore that behavior for that reason. I definitely don't think that will be an issue after this episode! That's one positive to come out of it for me.

 

But Step 2 is the actual acknowledgement, and I guess Step 3 is to show some growth on that front. To allow someone other than Oliver to be wrong sometimes, and to develop as a result. I guess it was too much to ask to see movement on that in this episode, but I would have at least liked an acknowledgment from Felicity. A "mini gargantuan freak-out" doesn't equal "was really cruel to you, specifically," for me. I got taken to task earlier in this thread, in fact, for using the word "cruel" in relation to Felicity, but that's exactly what she felt like, to me. I was really hoping Felicity wasn't going to take her spin on the shitting-on-Oliver-for-things-that-aren't-his-fault ride, but she sure did.

 

This is where I think they fail every time actually - the always tend to rush the resolution of things in episodes with a lot going on and 406 was packed with different scenes and plot threads, jumping from one to the other. I remember looking at the clock and thinking 'um, okay, we have less than 5 minutes to resolve Olicity's issues WTF.' The whole thing needed a larger discussion and more time to breathe because Felicity was really mean and she owed Oliver an apology and that was very much glossed over.

 

Saying that, they do this with pretty much every character so I find it hard to really focus too much on this overall. I think we're just supposed to accept things as resolved, just like we're supposed to accept that Laurel was totally angelic and selfless in resurrecting Sara and Quentin has apparently been there for the Queen family since Moira died. All bullshit but it is what it is.

 

 

As far as the question about Beth Schwartz: prior to this, my least favorite episodes for Felicity were Time of Death (though I really disliked everyone in this ep other than Dig), Draw Back Your Bow, and Canaries. Beth is now responsible for three of four. I think she writes Felicity to be more scowly, snarky, insecure, childish, and shallow than she is shown in most other episodes. She feels off, to me, and I'm not sure I can be more specific than that. Like she's off when she's on The Flash, in a different way. And obviously BS's credits are much deeper and I've certainly liked Felicity in plenty of her other episodes. But it seems like when Felicity has a lot of focus, and she writes the ep, I tend not to like her take on the character.

 

 

All of this but especially the bolded part. This is it exactly. It feels like she plays up the worst aspects of Felicity's personality and even aspects that I never really noticed before. And now it's canon that Felicity has a mean streak when she's stressed and tired or whatever. Eh. Not impressed at all. 

[dtissagirl]

I got taken to task earlier in this thread, in fact, for using the word "cruel" in relation to Felicity, but that's exactly what she felt like, to me.

 

 

I agree with you that Felicity has a cruel streak. She does. I think what she does is worse than "bitchy", even, because she goes for the jugular of the other person's insecurities every single time -- whether she realizes it's an insecurity or not. She did it with Donna in 305, and she's done it with Oliver a few times now.

 

But I guess... while it's uncomfortable as fuck for me to watch, and it does bother me that the writing doesn't make any effort whatsoever to acknowledge that Felicity is mean -- not even some self-awareness that she's hurting people with her words,  I also can see it as a tool from a writers' standpoint. Felicity is a hard character to arc because she doesn't have an A to B journey. I mean, it could have been done better, and without the thing with "lost" and "found" and UGH. And "I'm sorry for saying such awful things, please forgive me" is really not that hard to write down, Beth.

 

But  I can understand what the writing is trying to do here, and this is obviously me personally because I'm incapable of looking at stories from the inside -- I can accept a lot if I can look at a narrative and understand the usage of a story device, even when I don't like watching it.

Edited November 12, 2015 by dtissagirl

[looptab]

Thank you for answering me :) 

Yeah, I get what you mean. Beth Schwartz does seem to be the one to dig into Felicity's faults. And Time of Death was the worst, no arguing on that (that jacket part, FFS). But on the other hand I have a soft spot for Identity and Keep your Enemies Closer, so even if I see this problem in her writing, I can't bring myself to fault her too much. To me it seems that, while yes, she does paint Felicity in some not  great ways sometimes, she is also the one who gets the character more in her entirety? I don't know how to explain it, but at the end of the day, her episodes tend to have meaningful, good things for Felicity.

 

I agree though about the cheesiness of the "we found ourselves in each other" line. And the cruel streak. I'm curious if that gets explored somewhere down the line.

[kismet]

I saw a lot of cranky and snarky and neurotic, but I didn't find Felicity 'bitchy.' To me that has more of a negative vibe. Like there is some ill-will, but with Felicity I saw her as tunnel visioned and stressed out and slowing blaming herself for Ray's situation. And then Donna coming back reminding her of her parents relationship and her and Oliver getting so serious and the fear that comes with that. I just get it. I love that I got it. That they had her explain her mind frame to Oliver and then to her mother. That her mother addresses Felicity's own environment growing up. I loved that. 

The show has allowed bitch to be associated with FS, because the character was the first one to call herself a bitch. It opens the door. Even here we allow it with her title thread. Which is why I wanted to change it, but I understand why people like the title thread. I don't like the negative vibe "bitch" brings with it, but people have been okay with it now for 4 seasons.

 

I personally saw her behavior as more neurotic and snark on steroids than bitchy. But she was pure bitch at times. We have all been there. I like that they let FS own all sides of her. I do think that EBR plays FS with such genuineness that I believe it. It seemed a little out of left field writing & plotwise that she amped up that quickly. But that's just how ARROW writing rolls. I do appreciate that I could understand why FS was acting the way she did and it was about her and not about RP or OQ.

[AyChihuahua]

I also think this was the writers' shorthand for, "yes, we know that Oliver and Felicity must have a ton of issues from what happened in season 3 that they need to work out, but we're mostly pretending season 3 didn't happen, so here's the CliffsNotes version of them sorting out the messy way their relationship started".  So, while Oliver may not have done much this episode to earn Felicity's wrath, that doesn't mean that she doesn't have a ton of pent up (and very much deserved) wrath boiling about waiting for an opportune time to come out and spill all over him.

I think I would have been much more okay with it if I had seen that in the episode.  What you're saying makes perfect sense; it just wasn't really in the story.  One of the reasons that, for me, having them just drive off into the sunset last season sans any discussion of what a prick he'd been and how sorry he was, then spending five months off-screen, and now having her act like that without a lot of explanation or build-up was a mistake on the writers' part.

[kismet]

I agree with you that Felicity has a cruel streak. She does. I think what she does is worse than "bitchy", even, because she goes for the jugular of the other person's insecurities every single time -- whether she realizes it's an insecurity or not. She did it with Donna in 305, and she's done it with Oliver a few times now.

 

But I guess... while it's uncomfortable as fuck for me to watch, and it does bother me that the writing doesn't make any effort whatsoever to acknowledge that Felicity is mean -- not even some self-awareness that she's hurting people with her words,  I also can see it as a tool from a writers' standpoint. Felicity is a hard character to arc because she doesn't have an A to B journey. I mean, it could have been done better, and without the thing with "lost" and "found" and UGH. And "I'm sorry for saying such awful things, please forgive me" is really not that hard to write down, Beth.

 

But  I can understand what the writing is trying to do here, and this is obviously me personally because I'm incapable of looking at stories from the inside -- I can accept a lot if I can look at a narrative and understand the usage of a story device, even when I don't like watching it.

Her cruelty doesn't bother me as much because it comes out only every now and then like it does in real life. Everybody has multiple side to them, but FS generally MO is caring and not bitchy which is why I don't mind when it comes out. Whereas other characters are consistently bitchy that bitch is their default MO. Passive-Agreesive people can be hard to deal with IRL and they are not always fun to watch on screen. So as much as I get FS in P-A Bitch mode, it is certainly not one I like to watch.

 

I have been told personally that I go for the jugular in arguments and I know I do. It all depends on how you grew up and how you learned to fight with others. I learned early on to go for the emotional jugular because it maximizes your ability to win the fight and in some way make you feel better. It's not right, but it is what it is. It's something I'm working on, but its hard to not regress to that when you are under extreme stress. It's a socialized behavior and easy to fall back into.

 

As much as I would like to see FS apologize to OQ or her mother for what she said in s3. I also know that in her own way FS did apologize. More importantly she talked with the people and worked through (or at least talked about working through) what was the root of the argument. To me, that is more important than an apology. I have also been told that apologies don't matter much if the behavior does not change. So if the show only had time to give me an apology or a conversation, I take conversation anytime. But yeah, FS saying she's sorry would be nice to hear.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I think the fact that the writers only deploy Felicity's cruel streak when she's exhausted and stressed ends up making it easier to accept it as well? This is definitely not her default position, and it has to be triggered somehow.

 

It doesn't excuse it that Felicity gets away with it because the narrative allows her to [or because it doesn't want to? It's unclear to me], but at least it means the writers are aware of what they're doing here, which, considering how much unintended crap they put out, it's A GOOD THING in my book.

 

I think in the AU Earth wherein Arrow has 2 or 3 less regular characters, and all stories are character-driven, Felicity's cruel streak would have been better developed. An exploration of the WHY behind it -- that this something that she does because her highly logical and rational brain doesn't know what the fuck to do when she doesn't understand what she's feeling, so she lashes out horribly, and it's the actual lashing out that makes her realize the crux of her emotions. Because she projects insecurities onto other people, and in doing that, she realizes what she's feeling. And then she'd realize that this process she found to look into her own emotions is really really shitty, and she should maybe be talking to a psychologist on the regular.

 

But this particular group of writers isn't good enough to do that, so we get the quick fix version.

[Ceylon5]

I disagree fundamentally with the notion that everyone who gets pissy when they're tired and upset has "a cruel streak".  Felicity has never IMO been cruel, but perhaps we have different definitions of the word?  Pretty much every person I've ever known (myself included) has said unkind/stupid/unfair things on occasion, sometimes out of thoughtlessness, sometimes in an argument, sometimes when we're over-wrought for some reason.  This does not make us all cruel, nor does it mean we all have "cruel streaks", nor does it mean we need to see shrinks.  It's human.  And while it should merit an apology afterwards, not all of us are good at apologising (I do think that Felicity did apologise, though - just like you can express your love without saying the actual words, you can also express you're sorry without saying those exact words).  Which is also a character flaw, but is, again, very human.  I'm not really understanding why Felicity can't just have these flaws?  What's the big deal?  Why does she need to be "fixed"?  In my experience, the only thing that fixes being human is death.  And we know how that goes on Arrow...

[lemotomato]

I disagree fundamentally with the notion that everyone who gets pissy when they're tired and upset has "a cruel streak". Felicity has never IMO been cruel, but perhaps we have different definitions of the word? Pretty much every person I've ever known (myself included) has said unkind/stupid/unfair things on occasion, sometimes out of thoughtlessness, sometimes in an argument, sometimes when we're over-wrought for some reason. This does not make us all cruel, nor does it mean we all have "cruel streaks", nor does it mean we need to see shrinks. It's human. And while it should merit an apology afterwards, not all of us are good at apologising (I do think that Felicity did apologise, though - just like you can express your love without saying the actual words, you can also express you're sorry without saying those exact words). Which is also a character flaw, but is, again, very human. I'm not really understanding why Felicity can't just have these flaws? What's the big deal? Why does she need to be "fixed"? In my experience, the only thing that fixes being human is death. And we know how that goes on Arrow...

No one is saying that she can't have these flaws. In fact, most are saying that it's ok she's not perfect and her occasional lashing out makes her a more well rounded character. That doesn't mean I enjoy seeing that side of her, though.

I love Felicity, but that doesn't mean she's beyond criticism for me. I don't expect her to be likeable 100% of the time, but I can not like her when she occasionally does unlikeable things. I will say at least this time it was in character and she wasn't being a pod person like she was with Ray last season.

[tv echo]

YMMV, but I think there is a difference between being cruel and saying cruel things.  IMO, a cruel person intentionally sets out to hurt other people - cruelty is an innate part of their character.  However, otherwise nice people can sometimes say cruel things out of thoughtlessness or pain or frustration - cruelty is not an innate part of their character.

[Morrigan2575]

YMMV, but I think there is a difference between being cruel and saying cruel things.  IMO, a cruel person intentionally sets out to hurt other people - cruelty is an innate part of their character.  However, otherwise nice people can sometimes say cruel things out of thoughtlessness or pain or frustration - cruelty is not an innate part of their character.

I agree very strongly

[Cerulean Blue]

I disagree fundamentally with the notion that everyone who gets pissy when they're tired and upset has "a cruel streak".  Felicity has never IMO been cruel, but perhaps we have different definitions of the word?  

Totally agree. I don't think Felicity was cruel to Oliver at all. After I first watched the episode, I thought she was pretty mean to him, but now that I've seen it a couple of times, I'd probably even downgrade that to "kind of mean." She was short and snappish with him, but certainly not cruel. I'm actually not even sure what lines or scenes could be considered "cruel." The meanest thing she said, in my opinion, was when she asked if he knew how to build a manifold when he wanted to go to Palmer Tech with her. And that was more snippy than anything else. And, to be fair, Felicity was right: Oliver would have been no help at all with that and probably would have just kept hovering around and telling her to relax. Combined with the fact that all of his previous "help" wasn't all that helpful to her, and I can see why she wanted him to give her some space.

 

I also think the fact that she explicitly said she blamed herself, not him, for Ray's current situation is particularly not-cruel. (Compare that to Oliver's remark in 2x10 that the reason the mission failed was because Felicity "didn't have it" that night. That was pretty cruel since it laid the blame for not catching a dangerous criminal solely on her.)

 

She was trying to work through some stuff and needed to do it in a particular way, which was away from Oliver (since her intense connection to him was really the reason behind the majority of her angst). Wanting to deal with her feelings her way and not his--and getting annoyed when he kept pushing her to do things how he thought the should be done (nap, hang out with her mom)--is understandable. And, sure, she didn't handle it super-maturely, but I also don't think anything she said was cruel. 

[kismet]

Agree that there is a difference between being cruel and saying cruel things. FS is not a cruel person but she has said some cruel things to OQ over the last 2 seasons. I actually think some of the cruelest things we said were in s3. e406 was pretty tame in comparison to their fight in 317.

But her passive-agressive game had stepped up a few notches in 406, again it was not indicative of her being a cruel person. Just a cruel behavior manifesting from a stressful place, insecurity and guilt. And so many people including myself have been there before, so what it really showed me is the FSs character is human. Her responses were human.

[Carrie Ann]

I went back looking for where anyone said Felicity is a cruel person, not just that she has a cruel streak or that she acted cruelly in certain moments or said things that were cruel, and couldn't find any example of that. Personally, my definition of cruel is very close to mean, only perhaps more targeted. YMMV. The few instances where Felicity has said things that made me wince were very targeted to hurt or embarrass or belittle, and I don't think they were premeditated and she may have regretted them immediately, but that doesn't erase the fact that they were cruel to begin with.

 

I think most of us who were unhappy about this have been pretty clear that the MAIN issue is that the SHOW didn't acknowledge that sufficiently here, IMO. They made Oliver apologize twice, and Felicity never. She thanked him for saving Ray and for being such an understanding boyfriend, which is the least she could do. (It was very similar to the previous episode, with Laurel thanking Oliver for saving Sara, but not apologizing for all the shit she did and caused, and Oliver having to tell her that she was right and he was a shitty friend.) I would have found all of those scenes uncomfortable and painful and upsetting regardless, but if there had been a satisfying resolution, I would have felt that that unpleasantness was worthwhile for the growth reasons. As I said elsewhere, I think they resolved Oliver's insecurity and Felicity's relationship fears, but not her behavior toward Oliver, and that is why it's sticking with me. We've talked about how every other character on the show has been beating up on Oliver this season, and then he's the one who has to apologize for it (Dig was justified, the others not so much). I just didn't want it to happen with Felicity, and it did. I would have liked her to be different. I would have liked her to be the first one to tell him he wasn't the person who should apologize. (Side note: I swear I'm going to need some sort of Class Protector Award moment for Oliver later this season.) It's a failure of writing, and I blame BS. :)

Edited November 13, 2015 by Carrie Ann