Felicity Smoak: Bitch With Wifi

[kismet]

I think for me, I never really saw RP & FS as boyfriend/girlfriend. I just saw them as dating, which is different. RPs I love you always felt a little too rushed and out of the blue, but I guess apparently not since R&F had had the conversation establishing them as a couple. Here I thought RP was leaping over boundaries, but maybe FS was leading him on. Now I'm starting to feel a little bad for RP. See the writers are working their crafty magic again.

Which now annoys me then as to why she never introduced him to Dig sooner. I get they can't show us everything. But at the wedding, a nice to see you again instead of oh I see you brought your +1. It would have been better, esp since the writers made him the minister. Then again maybe FS & Dig are not close friends? IDK if my boyfriend & I are taking weekend trips to CC and hes ready to tell me he loves me, he's probably at least already met my friends more than once and not just the week before.

To me it feels like the show is angling to make RP & FS a deeper relationship than what I think was shown. And EBRs performance follows the company line selling that story.

I also think that s3 did a lot of damage to FS character that I thought I was over, but apparently I'm not. Because aftet my s3 rewatch, I realized why FS still feels off in s4. I don't trust her as much as I did in s1&2. So now when I see her, I can't unsee her s3 actions & choices. So when she does stuff in s4 that is reminiscent of s3, it makes my spidey senses tingle.

I don't need her to be all about OQ. But I need her to be in love with him and not just his vigilante lifestyle. I need her to be involved in the relationship and not just passively accepting what happens. She plays her cards a little too close to the chest at times now and I don't like that feeling.

I love that she is her own person. I love that they are uber supportive of each other. I just wish I could trust her to be honest with herself & OQ as much as she was in s1&2. S3 really shook my confidence in her ability and some of that mistrust is lingering in how EBR is playing her in s4.

Edited November 2, 2015 by kismet

[bijoux]

I really took the fact that Felicity hadn't introduced Ray to Dig before bringing him as her plus one coupled with the fact that we had been shown he was entered as R. Palmer in her phone in the previous ep as valid signals that Felicity was far from being all in. All the excessive stuff read as her being gung ho about conving both of them that the relationship was more than it really was. Other then Oliver finding her wrapped around Ray at PT were there actually any other instances of her going overboard on this show?

I don't really mind that Felicity didn't tell Oliver she loved him in 3x09. She was caught off guard. And I certainly didn't want her telling someone else when he was presumed dead. He was the one that deserved to hear the words first and once she did tell him, she freely announced her feelings to Thea in the following episode. Which if you want to fanwank, could be read as her holding out hope that he was alive after the duel with Ra's and saving that first confession for him alone. And I do mean alone, not with Dig and Roy in the Foundry.

I also have no doubts about her feelings for him or her level of commitment to him. She chose him just as much as he did her in last year's finale. If going away with him, leaving both her day and night job behind after realizing everything he had done (setting himself up for dying being the capital sin in her book from my point of view), doesn't show she values him above anything else, I don't know what does.

[calliope1975]

I also have no doubts about her feelings for him or her level of commitment to him. She chose him just as much as he did her in last year's finale. If going away with him, leaving both her day and night job behind after realizing everything he had done (setting himself up for dying being the capital sin in her book from my point of view), doesn't show she values him above anything else, I don't know what does.

 

I agree. I haven't seen anything to make me doubt Felicity's feelings or commitment to Oliver. I think she would gladly have stayed in Ivy City for as long as Oliver wanted. She would have been bored silly, but she would have stayed. I liked that they had to work through their different life philosophies, and I suspect there will be more obstacles they'll have to compromise on together. As long as the conflicts are handled together, I'm good. 

 

I am interested to see how Felicity reacts to the (my assumption) reappearance of her father. She shut down after Cooper but opened back up when she joined TA. How will she react this time?

 

I'm not even focusing on the RP stuff because it's all plot to move him over to LOT, just like Laurel/Sara. I can't wait to get my show back.

[kismet]

I really took the fact that Felicity hadn't introduced Ray to Dig before bringing him as her plus one coupled with the fact that we had been shown he was entered as R. Palmer in her phone in the previous ep as valid signals that Felicity was far from being all in. All the excessive stuff read as her being gung ho about conving both of them that the relationship was more than it really was. Other then Oliver finding her wrapped around Ray at PT were there actually any other instances of her going overboard on this show?

I don't really mind that Felicity didn't tell Oliver she loved him in 3x09. She was caught off guard. And I certainly didn't want her telling someone else when he was presumed dead. He was the one that deserved to hear the words first and once she did tell him, she freely announced her feelings to Thea in the following episode. Which if you want to fanwank, could be read as her holding out hope that he was alive after the duel with Ra's and saving that first confession for him alone. And I do mean alone, not with Dig and Roy in the Foundry.

I think you're confused. She never talked to Thea until after he came back from fake death. The ep where she confides in thea is after he stays behind in NP.

Either way its something in the way she acted around RP. I shouldn't have but I rewatched s3 and I did she a little bit of the chemistry people were talking about. She was very lovey-dovey around him. And in 319, she was hanging off of him and extremely concerned for his safety while he was in the field facing the meta. Which was on another level than how we ever seen her with OQ in the field.

I know a lot of s3 was for plot or prop, thereby a lot seemed OOC. But I guess now, I just have lingering doubts as to whether or not I really know the character. To paraphrase Billy Joel, its something in the way she moves or acts in this case onscreen. It's weird because I feel like FS is back in so many other ways. But I now feel this lingering doubt about her interactions with OQ.

[bijoux]

I think you're confused. She never talked to Thea until after he came back from fake death. The ep where she confides in thea is after he stays behind in NP.

I'm not confused, that's exactly what I'm saying. Oliver was the first person to hear Felicity say she loved him (in 3x20), as he should have been in my opinion. After she admitted it to him it was easy and normal to her to say it to Thea in 3x21, but not before that.

As for the matter of concern, eh. She has been and still is concerned when Oliver goes out but Ray was like a newborn puppy out there. I don't mind that she didn't want him to get slaughtered.

[kismet]

I'm not confused, that's exactly what I'm saying. Oliver was the first person to hear Felicity say she loved him (in 3x20), as he should have been in my opinion. After she admitted it to him it was easy and normal to her to say it to Thea in 3x21, but not before that.

As for the matter of concern, eh. She has been and still is concerned when Oliver goes out but Ray was like a newborn puppy out there. I don't mind that she didn't want him to get slaughtered.

Sorry my bad! I misread your post. I got your intention, but thought there was confusion on the episodes. My apologies :)

Well he decided to go out there all cocky to save the city without proper training, so I have no sympathy for him. But the way the scene came off made it seem like FS is overly concerned for him. She was fine with every other newbie in other seasons just getting out there, what made RP so different? Because she had deep feelings for him. Only explanation I can give.

[bijoux]

How many newbies has she seen in the filed? Roy and Laurel as far as I remember. Roy went out wih Oliver for support and Laurel defies all explanation, so I won't even get into that. I mean, Ray's a complete dumbass, I won't deny that. Ever. But then again I've been worried about dumbass people doing dumbass things as well, even though I wasn't even dating them or felt anything romantic for them.

[kismet]

Basically just Roy & Laurel, but she seemed fine with them out there. In fact, she actively supported them going into the field, even though they could have used more time.

I guess its because I never really saw her nervous in the foundry before. Yes there were those moments when OQ was slow to respond or she heard really awful noises. Almost from day 1 in the foundry she was very calm behind her work station during the mission scenes. Very little seemed to rattle her.. But she had a nervous energy when RP was in the field. The only other time I saw that was in the Left Behind garage scene where she winds up locking D&R in the garage. That I attributed to not wanting to see hrr friends die so close after SL & OQ.

Her whole entire energy around RP was very high & manic at times. I thought it was just nervous energy at first. But in light of everything maybe it was a pseudo-high from the developing of her feelings for him. Like I said rewatching s3 eps in quick succession of each other gave me a whole other perspective on how EBR choose to play scenes. Some good, most not that good depending upon what how you view FS.

[looptab]

This convo confuses me, because I don't understand what could be read as Felicity not being all-in or cautious in any way.

I don't get the complaint about Felicity being "draped" around Ray either - which if I'm not wrong were chalked out as an instance of Pod!Felicity - since now that she's with Oliver she's doing pretty much the same with him? 

[Password]

I never had an issue with Felicity being draped around Ray. I figured she's just a touchy person. She was like that with Cooper too.

I had mucho issues with it being RAY. In fact most everything I had issues with around that relationship centred on Ray.

[looptab]

I never had an issue with Felicity being draped around Ray. I figured she's just a touchy person. She was like that with Cooper too.

I had mucho issues with it being RAY. In fact most everything I had issues with around that relationship centred on Ray.

Haha, that's fair. :)

[dtissagirl]

Well he decided to go out there all cocky to save the city without proper training, so I have no sympathy for him. But the way the scene came off made it seem like FS is overly concerned for him. She was fine with every other newbie in other seasons just getting out there, what made RP so different? Because she had deep feelings for him. Only explanation I can give.

 

This is where your train of thought loses me. You don't have sympathy for Palmer [hey, I loathe the character completely!], but... Felicity does? She's dating him? She cares for him and is afraid he's gonna die?

 

You're assigning "overly concerned" to Felicity because you wouldn't be concerned for Palmer at all, so she's going against what you would do. And hey, I'm in the same boat here. I would have let that douche crash and burn and die in 3 seconds flat, but I'm sorry, it still doesn't make sense to access Felicity's level of concern for Palmer based on my feelings for the jerkwad. I can hate the relationship, I can wish she wasn't touching him AT ALL [because ew], but there's no way that her motivation would ever match that of someone in the audience who basically feels the opposite as she does re: Palmer.

 

And also -- I really don't think her overt concern for Palmer means she has less feelings for Oliver. That's not how feelings work, imo. Plus, she was actively repressing/denying how she feels about Oliver to herself, or at least trying to, so it's not even a fair comparison.

[kismet]

This convo confuses me, because I don't understand what could be read as Felicity not being all-in or cautious in any way.

I don't get the complaint about Felicity being "draped" around Ray either - which if I'm not wrong were chalked out as an instance of Pod!Felicity - since now that she's with Oliver she's doing pretty much the same with him?

For me, I realized its the vibe EBR gave off around RP. When I watched it originally I thought it was just FS trying to overcompensate being involved with RP while being inlove with OQ. Second time around, I realized she was playing her as FS actually falling for RP. See I didn't believe that FS was actually falling for RP. I thought it was just a plot/prop thing - but I think I was wrong there were genuine & deeper feelings than I thought.

As for present day, the vibe I get from EBR is that FS is all about GA & TA, but seems less excited about OQ. Whereas in previous seasons, it seemed like she was one of the only that saw and loved all sides of his dual identity. In fact saw & inspired OQ to be the better man he was.

[bijoux]

kismet, how do you then view the fact that Felicity confessed her feelings to Oliver presumably on the same day Ray broke up with her? A fact she never really seemed torn up about aside from regretting hurting Ray. And after the fact, once Oliver had presumably joined the League she never cast a single glance Ray's way. Except for asking him to help rescue Oliver in NP.

[looptab]

For me, I realized its the vibe EBR gave off around RP. When I watched it originally I thought it was just FS trying to overcompensate being involved with RP while being inlove with OQ. Second time around, I realized she was playing her as FS actually falling for RP. See I didn't believe that FS was actually falling for RP. I thought it was just a plot/prop thing - but I think I was wrong there were genuine & deeper feelings than I thought.

As for present day, the vibe I get from EBR is that FS is all about GA & TA, but seems less excited about OQ. Whereas in previous seasons, it seemed like she was one of the only that saw and loved all sides of his dual identity. In fact saw & inspired OQ to be the better man he was.

 

You see, as much as IMO Felicity was trying to get over Oliver by being with Palmer, I never doubted that she cared deeply for Ray.At the same time I never doubted that she was in love with Oliver. I did and I do believe that her feelings towards Ray are genuine and that there is affection on her part.( I also didn't have a problem with Ray most of the time).  But what she feels for him has nothing to do with Oliver.

Also, I don't see this vibe you are talking about at all. And I'm a bit confused about your recent comments about EBR's portrayal =/= Felicity, because IMO she's just following script/director's indications. I don't see where the actress could be at fault. 

[kismet]

This is where your train of thought loses me. You don't have sympathy for Palmer [hey, I loathe the character completely!], but... Felicity does? She's dating him? She cares for him and is afraid he's gonna die?

You're assigning "overly concerned" to Felicity because you wouldn't be concerned for Palmer at all, so she's going against what you would do. And hey, I'm in the same boat here. I would have let that douche crash and burn and die in 3 seconds flat, but I'm sorry, it still doesn't make sense to access Felicity's level of concern for Palmer based on my feelings for the jerkwad. I can hate the relationship, I can wish she wasn't touching him AT ALL [because ew], but there's no way that her motivation would ever match that of someone in the audience who basically feels the opposite as she does re: Palmer.

And also -- I really don't think her overt concern for Palmer means she has less feelings for Oliver. That's not how feelings work, imo. Plus, she was actively repressing/denying how she feels about Oliver to herself, or at least trying to, so it's not even a fair comparison.

My feelings for RP are separate than how I view FS. Only mentioned it because it was mentioned that people care about people doing dumbass things. The way I see it if you hit the streets without training, u get what u get.

I thought that she would have the same level of chill in the lair that she has had for all members & members adjacent to TA. She seemed confident in his abilities and then got uber nervous before he even began to struggle.

To me that was a distinct difference in how she was perhaps more invested in him doing well than Roy & LL who were the other newbies she had experienced.

In my head I equate FS caring for RP on the same level she cared for RH or Dig, but it was played differently which was OOC for me the first time - but now I think there was legitimate difference that was not ooc.

[dtissagirl]

My feelings for RP are separate than how I view FS. Only mentioned it because it was mentioned that people care about people doing dumbass things. The way I see it if you hit the streets without training, u get what u get.

 

Again, it sounds to me like you want Felicity to behave like you would have. She doesn't seem to think Palmer is being a dumbass in this episode, nor does Felicity agree with you in anyway that n00bs should get what they get. Case in point: Lance, Dinah Laurel.

 

 

In my head I equate FS caring for RP on the same level she cared for RH or Dig, but it was played differently which was OOC for me the first time - but now I think there was legitimate difference that was not ooc.

 

I don't think the show agrees with your head canon there. Felicity cared for Palmer in a completely different way than she cared for Roy or Dig, which is WHY it was played differently.

 

Also, she knew Roy and Dig were capable in the field from the get go because she knew they had previous experience. This was Palmer first outing as a vigilante. She was romantically involved with him. Imo, her level of concern for him is perfectly adequate.

[hogwash]

In my head I equate FS caring for RP on the same level she cared for RH or Dig, but it was played differently which was OOC for me the first time - but now I think there was legitimate difference that was not ooc.

 

My condolences on you S03 rewatch. I could and will never. Bleh. Anyway, there is a massive amount of disconnect with how Ray/Felicity came off. My issues with Felicity is the same I had with Thea in S03. Yes, I'm comparing Malcolm Merlyn to Ray Palmer. Thea who, at some point, had a conflict with every member of her family (even the DEAD ONES) is a loyal daughter to Malcolm Merlyn for a good chunk of S03. Thanks, S03. That's the way I see Felicity's character when she's with Palmer. 

 

In one episode, she was justifiably annoyed that he shows up at her apartment under some BS pretense. Ray is not in the next episode. The episode after that, she's literally in tears talking about how awesome he is at some investor dinner. I guess you can explain it away as some delayed reaction to Oliver's BS in the same episode. But, it was so completely excessive and bizarre. I stopped watching pretty soon after that (I couldn't come back from Malcolm drugging Thea to kill Sara...it was/is so so stupid) but I guess that OTTness continued in later episodes.

 

EDIT: I'm still pissed she never called him out after they started orbiting each other romantically. She calls everyone out. That's her thing! I think that's why her POV was missing/off in S03. That's how you usually know how she feels about something or someone. 

Edited November 2, 2015 by hogwash

[Password]

Haha for me the issue was always Ray. I had issues with Ray so I found it odd she didn't, particularly as I thought she WOULD.

But other than that Felicity seemed really in character for me. It was only ever around Ray that I side eyed everything.

Ray, Ray, Ray.

[Angel12d]

Jumping in here, I do agree that EBR played her interactions/feelings for Ray as a little over the top at times. But saying that, I never really bought it? She didn't convince me that Felicity was falling for Ray or that she was better with Ray or any of that. It just came across as Felicity trying too hard to forget about Oliver which, IMO, is exactly what Felicity was doing anyway. She knew she couldn't be with Oliver and she told him she wasn't going to wait around so she was trying to move on.

 

I didn't like her clinginess to Ray in 319 simply because I disliked Ray a lot and I thought the whole love triangle was contrived so it didn't read as natural or organic to me. And it wasn't, especially because it's actually part of the dialogue where Oliver questions if Felicity reacts that way when he's out in the field. So Felicity being overly worried about Ray was purely so Oliver could notice and ask about it. Contrived as hell. I find it so easy to dismiss these moments based on that fact alone.

 

So no, I don't think Felicity was falling in love with Ray but I guess I'm supposed to believe she could have got there eventually. And I'm also supposed to believe that she had some kind of feeling for him considering she slept with him, was dating him and actually liked him as a person. Why, I'll never know but it is what it is.

 

As for her feelings for Oliver, I think s3 did her character a huge disservice in not really giving her any kind of voice and when they did it was either on a different show or it was only when plot dictated. I have no issue with her not returning Oliver's "I love you" in 309, purely because it wasn't the right moment and also because I think he blindsided her. I've always been of the opinion that Felicity never really believed Oliver could feel that way about her. She thought the two of them were unthinkable. That kind of revelation otherwise must have been a shock.

 

I also thought she played quietly devastated in 310 really well and I saw her feelings for him there. But from that point on she wasn't allowed to show her feelings for Oliver because she was entering 'love triangle with Ray' territory so they held back on her voicing whatever her feelings may have been until the appropriate moment in plot. Again, messy and contrived but not really surprising given how bad that season was as a whole. 

 

And I definitely have no doubt about her feelings for Oliver this season. She's affectionate and touchy feely. She stayed in Ivy Town because Oliver's happiness is important to her, even if she was bored as anything. She was even willing to go back to that life too. I seriously have no issues with this at all. I'm actually a very happy Olicity fan this season whereas OMG s3 was such a slog to get through at times. I'm so grateful that we have SA and EBR playing them because they elevated some really crap material.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Angel12d

[Genki]

While I don't doubt Felicity's love for Oliver I do wonder at what her reaction to the ring will be...

[Angel12d]

While I don't doubt Felicity's love for Oliver I do wonder at what her reaction to the ring will be...

 

Haha, yeah. Probably stunned. 

[theacostov]

As for present day, the vibe I get from EBR is that FS is all about GA & TA, but seems less excited about OQ. Whereas in previous seasons, it seemed like she was one of the only that saw and loved all sides of his dual identity. In fact saw & inspired OQ to be the better man he was.

I personally don't see this vibe. If anything this is is the most supportive of Oliver queen and green arrow I have ever seen from her.

A couple of examples in the premiere she pushed for him to be GA even though he was afraid it would bring back the darkness. She showed faith in him that that won't happen and he's trying because of it.

In episode 2 she was concerned with his relationship with Thea. Similarly, episode 3 with Diggle. In episode 4 I've never seen her as proud of Oliver as when he's giving the mayoral speech. All of these things are for Oliver Queeen.

Whilst I agree that last season I wasn't sure what her feelings were for Oliver, I can't say that this year. Felicity is generally happier this season and Oliver has a lot to do with that.

[tarotx]

The issue I had was for most of the season Felicity went from depressed on her show Arrow and then (within that Show called Arrow) traveled to Ray's near comedy show. There was jarring tone differences between the two shows. And Ray was the lead of that show which was annoying. Plus there was an undercurrent that Ray was supposed to be a better Oliver and I'm never ok with that. Which left Felicity in a relationship with a wanna be Oliver who stalked her. It was pretty icky. Everything is made to make Oliver look bad and he was already making himself look bad :p Felicity also had this weird energy about her that I felt was about trying to prove she didn't need Oliver. But she was with a wannabe. Then they upped the Ray is a Felicity character which worked better for Arrow but it was a jarring change since sometimes Ray seemed like he was going to be a Villain and now there was an incest vibe about them. Which the show even had Oliver comment on. 

[Angel12d]

The issue I had was for most of the season Felicity went from depressed on her show Arrow and then (within that Show called Arrow) traveled to Ray's near comedy show. There was jarring tone differences between the two shows. And Ray was the lead of that show which was annoying. Plus there was an undercurrent that Ray was supposed to be a better Oliver and I'm never ok with that. Which left Felicity in a relationship with a wanna be Oliver who stalked her. It was pretty icky. Everything is made to make Oliver look bad and he was already making himself look bad :p Felicity also had this weird energy about her that I felt was about trying to prove she didn't need Oliver. But she was with a wannabe. Then they upped the Ray is a Felicity character which worked better for Arrow but it was a jarring change since sometimes Ray seemed like he was going to be a Villain and now there was an incest vibe about them. Which the show even had Oliver comment on. 

 

This. The scenes with Ray even had this jaunty kind of music which totally jarred with the rest of the episode. It was like a completely different show.

 

I basically lay most of my 's3 issues with Felicity' at Ray's feet. They were hoping for a character who could keep up with Felicity but when the pair of them were together it was just like white noise. They clashed rather than complimented each other. And Felicity not seeing the issues with Ray that I feel her character would have seen in previous seasons was just the worst. Especially as she had an actual stalker and she said he exhibited similar behavior in either 301 or 302. The turnaround of her accepting and liking him was so weird and jarring.

 

I will forever be baffled by the way they handled the whole thing.

[bijoux]

EDIT: I'm still pissed she never called him out after they started orbiting each other romantically. She calls everyone out. That's her thing! I think that's why her POV was missing/off in S03. That's how you usually know how she feels about something or someone.

This! They changed something fundamental about Felicity to coddle Ray. I'm beyond thrilled that she is herself with Oliver and she doesn't need to be another person for them to work.

Especially as she had an actual stalker and she said he exhibited similar behavior in either 301 or 302. The turnaround of her accepting and liking him was so weird and jarring.

The stalker was brought up again in season 3? I remember her mentioning a lacrosse player stalking her in college to Dig in season two. Now I'm actually wondering whether they'll bring this guy as the villain of the week. Altough it would be redundant considering we already had Cooper. Maybe if it turns out it wasn't someone interested in her personally but hired by her dad to keep tabs on her.

[Angel12d]

The stalker was brought up again in season 3? I remember her mentioning a lacrosse player stalking her in college to Dig in season two. Now I'm actually wondering whether they'll bring this guy as the villain of the week. Altough it would be redundant considering we already had Cooper. Maybe if it turns out it wasn't someone interested in her personally but hired by her dad to keep tabs on her.

 

Yes, I'm pretty sure it was when she went to PT to tell Ray to stop sending her flowers and calling her and whatever. It might have been 302. But she definitely mentioned yet again that she had a stalker once before.

[bijoux]

It had to have been in 302 then. That's when she went t tell him to lay off and proceeded to crack because she was grieving for Sara.

[Angel12d]

It had to have been in 302 then. That's when she went t tell him to lay off and proceeded to crack because she was grieving for Sara.

 

I think so. The episodes are kind of hazy to me because I haven't rewatched the season because no thanks. Haha. But she definitely said something about having a stalker before. And then to go work for him and give that weird dreamy speech in 307 was just such a turnaround that came out of nowhere, IMO. Ugh. I get annoyed just thinking about it. Better stop. 

[AyChihuahua]

If you would all just listen to me you'd be much happier.  NEVER EVER EVER WATCH OR REWATCH S3.

 

As for me, I had doubts that FS was IN LOVE with Oliver in S3.  Definitely prior to 3.20, and yes, she said it in 3.20, but then she was superchill about him being in the LOA in 3.21 (I hated the scene where she was talking to Thea, something like I loved him, part of me still does...it's been like THREE WEEKS, PART of you still loves him?  JFC, those are some deep feelings that take less than three weeks to start dissolving, that make you basically fine with him joining an evil group of assassins and unwilling to commit so much as a CHAT to get him back).

 

But I'm cool with them so far in S4.  

Edited November 2, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[bijoux]

I remember it as her saying something like, " That's why I loved him. Why I still love him." I don't remember parts of her loving him.

[Angel12d]

(I hated the scene where she was talking to Thea, something like I loved him, part of me still does...it's been like THREE WEEKS, PART of you still loves him?  JFC, those are some deep feelings that take less than three weeks to start dissolving, that make you basically fine with him joining an evil group of assassins and unwilling to commit so much as a CHAT to get him back).

 

 

I remember it as her saying something like, " That's why I loved him. Why I still love him." I don't remember parts of her loving him.

 

 

I watched the scene on youtube (Bless Olicity Queen!) and she says "I did love him. Despite everything, I still do." So I don't see that as her love fading after a few weeks. I think at this time they were all treating Oliver as gone forever which is why she said 'did love' at first. Didn't bother me, tbh.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Angel12d

[AyChihuahua]

I watched the scene on youtube (Bless Olicity Queen!) and she says "I did love him. Despite everything, I still do." So I don't see that as her love fading after a few weeks. I think at this time they were all treating Oliver as gone forever which is why she said 'did love' at first. Didn't bother me, tbh.

That's definitely better, but despite what everythingt?  Despite him joining the LOA?  Even though she didn't know his plan, she certainly knew he wasn't voluntarily joining.  Why did she think he was fine with staying in it?  Why was she fine with it?  I mean seriously, if I knew a superhero who joined an evil group, my first thought would be he was probably going undercover to take them down, not that he was all "Okay cool, I tried the superhero thing, I guess now I'll give the supervillain thing a shot."

[kismet]

kismet, how do you then view the fact that Felicity confessed her feelings to Oliver presumably on the same day Ray broke up with her? A fact she never really seemed torn up about aside from regretting hurting Ray. And after the fact, once Oliver had presumably joined the League she never cast a single glance Ray's way. Except for asking him to help rescue Oliver in NP.

Well TBH I was pissed because timing is timing, but that seemed like it was forced timing due to writing.

 

Honestly, I do not know how to answer that. I have a warring version of FS in my head. I have the FS I knew from s1, 2 & parts of s3. And then I have the FS I saw for most of s3, which for me was incongruent with the character I had come to know. I can no longer differentiate between what is the real FS and what is some version of her. So I am kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think if you asked me in May - I would have said that it was all for plot/prop. But having recently watched s3 again, I would say that it made perfect sense that FS just hung around a relationship with RP until he pulled plug. It also made sense that she only admitted her feelings because Ras essentially told her to. Without Ras, I'm not sure we would have had her confession.

 

She knows she hurt RP which is why it makes sense on all levels that she never gave him a second glance when OQ was in LOA. I also think she believed OQ would return to her. More importantly, when you hurt someone by sorta using them (Even if it developed into something else), its pretty heartless thing to do a second time. I believe FS when she says she never sought out to hurt RP. So even if she didn't intend to do it, it still happened. And I don't find her a heartless person that would knowingly set out to hurt someone. AND now she knows she would hurt him because she is in love with someone else and willing to do something about it.

 

I had always assumed R/F was more of friends with benefits scenario. Anything else was a pod thing or a plot/prop thing. So the way it ended made sense to me in May. But that's not the case there was a genuine relationship between R/F. FS behavior in s4 to me indicates that she had feelings for him. Intellectually, I can understand how it happened. Emotionally I'm still angry about how the relationship was handled from beginning to end. I always assumed she was in love with OQ. But that wasn't enough for her to pursue him. OQ was being difficult - but she also chose to do nothing about it. Which is why she chose RP, because he was willing & available. But mostly I have no good answer, just a lot of jumbled thoughts & emotions.

[kismet]

Again, it sounds to me like you want Felicity to behave like you would have. She doesn't seem to think Palmer is being a dumbass in this episode, nor does Felicity agree with you in anyway that n00bs should get what they get. Case in point: Lance, Dinah Laurel.

Didn't mean for it to come off like that. I was under-caffeinated & overtired. FS & I are too different types of person. I do not expect us to act similarly. Well except we both want to have sexy times with OQ. I really do try to separate out my personal thoughts from my critical mind when analyzing characters. But the post I was replying to was giving more of a personal opinion of how they handle it. I apologize that my post got a little muddled, because part of it I was responding for me and the other part was about FS.

 

I don't think the show agrees with your head canon there. Felicity cared for Palmer in a completely different way than she cared for Roy or Dig, which is WHY it was played differently.

Yeah, I've realized that. I think I just finally begrudgingly accepted it :(

 

Also, she knew Roy and Dig were capable in the field from the get go because she knew they had previous experience. This was Palmer first outing as a vigilante. She was romantically involved with him. Imo, her level of concern for him is perfectly adequate.

True. Which is why I loved her response to OQ. Because they really was no way to answer that question that wouldn't get her in trouble.

[tarotx]

Maybe Felicity felt Ray's heart wasn't going to be an issue since it wasn't that long ago that his fiance died. Then he said I love you and she knew and tried to allow it to be real but she knew and he saw that Oliver was the man she was in love with and not just loved. The Couple should have broke up in 19 instead of 20. That would have been believable but the show probably felt it was weird to ask for the Plane an episode later even if it was just a few hours difference.  

[kismet]

I personally don't see this vibe. If anything this is is the most supportive of Oliver queen and green arrow I have ever seen from her.

A couple of examples in the premiere she pushed for him to be GA even though he was afraid it would bring back the darkness. She showed faith in him that that won't happen and he's trying because of it.

In episode 2 she was concerned with his relationship with Thea. Similarly, episode 3 with Diggle. In episode 4 I've never seen her as proud of Oliver as when he's giving the mayoral speech. All of these things are for Oliver Queeen.

Whilst I agree that last season I wasn't sure what her feelings were for Oliver, I can't say that this year. Felicity is generally happier this season and Oliver has a lot to do with that.

Good Points. I guess I'm just hesitant because a lot of it seems to be in service of TA first, OQ 2nd. Then again I'm still getting adjusted to a fully integrated OQ. Part of me still sees him as 2 different people. A broken OQ, I understood. This newly fused OQ is harder for me to understand so that might be part of the new vibe too. But she is very proud of him that was evident during mayoral stuff. So it will probably all even itself out at some point.

[kismet]

If you would all just listen to me you'd be much happier.  NEVER EVER EVER WATCH OR REWATCH S3.

 

As for me, I had doubts that FS was IN LOVE with Oliver in S3.  Definitely prior to 3.20, and yes, she said it in 3.20, but then she was superchill about him being in the LOA in 3.21 (I hated the scene where she was talking to Thea, something like I loved him, part of me still does...it's been like THREE WEEKS, PART of you still loves him?  JFC, those are some deep feelings that take less than three weeks to start dissolving, that make you basically fine with him joining an evil group of assassins and unwilling to commit so much as a CHAT to get him back).

 

But I'm cool with them so far in S4.  

Wise words, I regret not following them, I'm sorry I let you down! if it makes you feel better the pain & new scars still hurt.

 

Ditto on your post except I did enjoy the TQ & FSs cene, even if it made absolutely no sense that they moved on. It also is made better by my head canon that had OQ watching the scene from the window from the way the director shot it.

Edited November 3, 2015 by kismet

[AyChihuahua]

If you really love tv show characters, as in you love them as people, S3 is genuinely painful.  It was like watching a bunch of my well-loved friends turn into dumb assholes.  (Except Roy.)

[kismet]

You see, as much as IMO Felicity was trying to get over Oliver by being with Palmer, I never doubted that she cared deeply for Ray.At the same time I never doubted that she was in love with Oliver. I did and I do believe that her feelings towards Ray are genuine and that there is affection on her part.( I also didn't have a problem with Ray most of the time).  But what she feels for him has nothing to do with Oliver.

Also, I don't see this vibe you are talking about at all. And I'm a bit confused about your recent comments about EBR's portrayal =/= Felicity, because IMO she's just following script/director's indications. I don't see where the actress could be at fault. 

After rewatching, I will agree with you that she genuinely cares deeply for RP. Why is still a personal mystery for me, but thats more on RP than FS. Didn't see it like that the first time around. The writing was a little wonky, the tone was off-putting and a lot of it was overacted. IMO it was subpar romance, but it did result in in deep feelings for the characters.

 

It's a vibe I see. I don't expect or need others to see it. I feel like I do my best to be unbiased in how I analyze what I watch. I do think that after 4 years, EBR has a say in certain ways her character acts. It has been documented in interviews, websites and just about everywhere that EBR brings something special to her character and a lot of her moments are her ad-libs or acting choices. A classic example, was her step back from OQ during the Alleyway of Angst in s3 (which was genius). So I think there is somethings that fall on the writers & directors shoulders. But there are some things that fall on EBR's shoulders.

 

If I am going to be critical of other actor's choices on this forum, then I'm going to be critical of EBRs when I disagree with her choices if I think they are not within the character the show has set-up. Now if EBR makes them part of her canon character quirks then I will accept them. But until they become consistent canon, if there are moments that are off to me I will look to the writers first & then they actors second. A lot of FS's off moments in s3 were the result of the writers. But there were some that were I think EBR's, and some of the vibe I'm getting in s4 comes from the acting not the writing. But again it is only my opinion. EBR is invested in her character, she tries to do best by her and usually succeeds. But not every choice succeeds. And sometimes I think the biggest fault I have with EBR's take on FS is that she goes over-the-top especially in certain scenes & with certain characters like Ray.

[AyChihuahua]

I was not a huge Sex and the City fan, but I remember reading that the main actress really wanted her character to be with the carpenter guy, not Mr. Big.  It's sort of that actors can start to identify with their characters enough that they want them to be with the maybe-better IRL match.  Now, from what I remember the carpenter guy was really nice, whereas Ray the Cane Toad is the Douchebag MIsogynist King of the Cane Toads.  But I don't know, if she saw him as the actual nice guy, she could put more of her real-life feelings into the relationship than maybe was warranted.

 

For the record, IRL I'd say go for the carpenter guy, not Mr. Big.  (NEVER RAY THE CANE TOAD.)  But on tv, the actual nice guy is boring, go for Mr. Big.  (As an aside, IRL the Sex and the City actress dated JFK Jr. for awhile, and it didn't end well, so you can kind of see why she'd want the nice kind carpenter guy instead of the big dramatic charisma guy.)

[EmeraldArcher]

Good Points. I guess I'm just hesitant because a lot of it seems to be in service of TA first, OQ 2nd. Then again I'm still getting adjusted to a fully integrated OQ. Part of me still sees him as 2 different people. A broken OQ, I understood. This newly fused OQ is harder for me to understand so that might be part of the new vibe too. But she is very proud of him that was evident during mayoral stuff. So it will probably all even itself out at some point.

I feel your pain, kismet. I didn't base my reaction to 401 on lingering disgust with S3 or Raylicity. I started the episode/season fully prepared for a fresh start. But, even though I knew that Felicity was bored in suburbia due to all of the spoilers, I was still inexplicably uncomfortable about her continuing to help TA while lying about it to Oliver. I totally get that we need personal fulfillment and a sense of purpose and absolutely support Felicity's right to those things over anything else in her life. But, I feel like she knew what Oliver was asking and agreed to a break from everything else. As someone who has supported his growth and encouraged him through such dark times, I just expected that she'd be able to give Oliver more than a few months of her attention and focus as he tried to heal after the years of unspeakable horror he'd endured. She at least should have been honest about how she felt and what she had been doing. Honestly, it's great that Oliver is emotionally healthier now, or he might have wondered why he wasn't/they weren't enough.

My disquiet had diminished by the second episode, and I've really enjoyed how their relationship has been portrayed since then. I just feel that Oliver has been through such extraordinary and painful circumstances for so long and she seemed to have longed to be with him for years, that I'm not sure why it suddenly wasn't enough to simply be with him for more than 2 months before she was hiding in bathroom stalls supporting TA remotely from romantic locales around the world.

It was all probably just a plot device to bring them back and a cute twist that she was the bored one that I've spent too long fretting about.

[kismet]

I feel your pain, kismet. I didn't base my reaction to 401 on lingering disgust with S3 or Raylicity. I started the episode/season fully prepared for a fresh start. But, even though I knew that Felicity was bored in suburbia due to all of the spoilers, I was still inexplicably uncomfortable about her continuing to help TA while lying about it to Oliver. I totally get that we need personal fulfillment and a sense of purpose and absolutely support Felicity's right to those things over anything else in her life. But, I feel like she knew what Oliver was asking and agreed to a break from everything else. As someone who has supported his growth and encouraged him through such dark times, I just expected that she'd be able to give Oliver more than a few months of her attention and focus as he tried to heal after the years of unspeakable horror he'd endured. She at least should have been honest about how she felt and what she had been doing. Honestly, it's great that Oliver is emotionally healthier now, or he might have wondered why he wasn't/they weren't enough.

My disquiet had diminished by the second episode, and I've really enjoyed how their relationship has been portrayed since then. I just feel that Oliver has been through such extraordinary and painful circumstances for so long and she seemed to have longed to be with him for years, that I'm not sure why it suddenly wasn't enough to simply be with him for more than 2 months before she was hiding in bathroom stalls supporting TA remotely from romantic locales around the world.

It was all probably just a plot device to bring them back and a cute twist that she was the bored one that I've spent too long fretting about.

I entered s4 with an open mind and an open heart. But little moments made me doubt.

 

I think I also set up the perfect storm for myself. I watched 404, didn't understand the need for the emotional depth to the return of RP arc. Because really, I thought we were just finding him. I didn't realize we'd all be forced to go on emotional journey for a character I (& others) almost forgotten had died. And some of us were not saddened by his departure, death yes - departure from show no. I was really thrown by FS's crying, which reminded me of my gut reaction to some of her actions in 401. Then I had a really bad day at work. The next day I spent at least 4.5 hrs combined driving (most of that time in traffic) going to a really sad wake for a young guy who died unexpectedly of a heart-attack. Thought too much about ARROW (I blame the radio & the solitude of solo car trips). Drank too much Dunkin's, had caffeine induced insomnia that only resolved after I completed my marathon rewatch of s3. And I have been spiraling ever since.

 

S3 had many faults, but most I can overlook because the results don't linger. MM was always an enigmatic lunatic. We got a better villain. The masks are what they are. But the effects on FS's character I just can't shake, the stink is still there. Maybe its because they are PROTting her again with RP, and its just too soon. I'm having too many traumatic flashbacks and I haven't even seen Crazy Red Eyes yet. Also the pseudo-PT island on FS & CH as enjoyable as it is, makes me bitter that we just can't have her be part of the main arc. Just bring Mr. Echo in on the secret already. We have other more pressing secrets to keep on the show.

Edited November 3, 2015 by kismet

[looptab]

If I am going to be critical of other actor's choices on this forum, then I'm going to be critical of EBRs when I disagree with her choices if I think they are not within the character the show has set-up. Now if EBR makes them part of her canon character quirks then I will accept them. But until they become consistent canon, if there are moments that are off to me I will look to the writers first & then they actors second. A lot of FS's off moments in s3 were the result of the writers. But there were some that were I think EBR's, and some of the vibe I'm getting in s4 comes from the acting not the writing. But again it is only my opinion. EBR is invested in her character, she tries to do best by her and usually succeeds. But not every choice succeeds. And sometimes I think the biggest fault I have with EBR's take on FS is that she goes over-the-top especially in certain scenes & with certain characters like Ray.

 

I wasn't trying to suggest that EBR must be above all criticism. Again, it's fair not to agree with certain choices from the actor. But in this case I don't think it holds. Like, (and I am really not doing this to compare the actresses or claim one is superior to the other - even if in my opinion she is) I get pointing out KC's blank face, or her arm crossed and bitchy face when the situation in the scene doesn't require for any of that. That, I get being seen as  puzzling acting choices. There's no need for her to act like that. But your only reason to question EBR's acting comes to her reaction to hearing Ray's presumed last words, and I personally think it's due to your profound dislike for Ray, and wishing Felicity were as unaffected by him as you are. And that, is not supported by the story being told. 

As for Felicity and Oliver, whatever doubt you may be getting about her, again, it's in the script. It's the script that says Feliciy lied to him while they were away, not EBR's decision.

 

BTW, I'm not trying to change your mind or convince you that my point of view is right and yours isn't. I get disliking a character so much you wish your faves were as far from them as possible. I wish Thea, Diggle, Felicity and Oliver  avoided Laurel like the plague. But I don't think it's fair to put it on the actors. They just do their job, and their job is to give their interpretation of how said characters react to things. And I think it's completely normal for Felicity to cry while hearing Ray's voice; if the one dead were Roy, I have no doubt she would have cried in that instance as well. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by looptab

[dtissagirl]

I don't wanna put intention into what you guys are saying about having doubts about Felicity's commitment to Oliver, but I actually LOVE IT more than anything else that Felicity's putting equal importance into the mission and her relationship with Oliver. Not because I think she feels like one is more or less important than the other, but because I think for Felicity -- THAT'S ALL THE SAME THING.

 

And it is. From a narrative standpoint, the mission and Oliver need to be the same thing -- Oliver needs to be both things without compartmentalization or thinking of himself as two separate people -- for both Oliver and The Arrow to truly become Green Arrow. And it's pretty obvious to me if you concentrate on the episodes that Berlanti gets story credit, that he's been consistently using Felicity as the person adding to this arc. Felicity's erasing the separation between man and vigilante, in a way. Because she doesn't see this separation that Oliver sees -- and that I think part of the audience also sees. No. For Felicity, it's all interconnected.

[Angel12d]

That's definitely better, but despite what everythingt?  Despite him joining the LOA?  Even though she didn't know his plan, she certainly knew he wasn't voluntarily joining.  Why did she think he was fine with staying in it?  Why was she fine with it?  I mean seriously, if I knew a superhero who joined an evil group, my first thought would be he was probably going undercover to take them down, not that he was all "Okay cool, I tried the superhero thing, I guess now I'll give the supervillain thing a shot."

 

Well, the 'despite everything' was 'despite him doing things for the League while brainwashed.' He'd just kidnapped Lyla and left baby Sara alone and then he took Nyssa. In Felicity's mind, Oliver would never do that. But she still loved him in spite of that. Evidence by the fact that she happily left the city with him in 323.

 

And I never got the impression that Felicity thought Oliver was fine with staying in the LoA. And I don't think she was fine with it either. I feel like you're basing this on one piece of dialogue that really shouldn't hold that much weight. She was talking to Thea and the pair of them were struggling with the idea of Oliver being alive but not being there with them. As far as they knew, he was in the League for the rest of their lives. Should they think of him as dead? How can they move on from that? That's what I got from that conversation. Definitely not fading feelings.

 

 

Good Points. I guess I'm just hesitant because a lot of it seems to be in service of TA first, OQ 2nd. Then again I'm still getting adjusted to a fully integrated OQ. Part of me still sees him as 2 different people. A broken OQ, I understood. This newly fused OQ is harder for me to understand so that might be part of the new vibe too. But she is very proud of him that was evident during mayoral stuff. So it will probably all even itself out at some point.

 

Isn't it a good thing that Felicity cares about Team Arrow though? Because if she didn't and Oliver was all she cared about, I can see the complaints already. "She's too absorbed in Oliver!" "She doesn't care about anyone else but her relationship!" "Why is she even on the team if she'd rather be elsewhere!" I can actually picture the haters saying this. They already do when complaints are made about her wanting Ray to save Oliver in 323 because apparently that meant she was happy to let the city die. Ridiculous but haters usually are.

 

I actually feel like her wanting more out of life than suburbia is a good thing and not only makes her a more rounded character but means she's an even better fit for Oliver than originally thought. Because I think at some point Oliver would have wanted to help people again, help his city, and so it was only a matter of time before they went back. Felicity wanting to go back just made it happen sooner. I'm thrilled that Felicity wants to help the city as much as him. It just makes them compatible and a great team.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Angel12d

[kismet]

[quote name="Angel12d" post="1668823"

Isn't it a good thing that Felicity cares about Team Arrow though? Because if she didn't and Oliver was all she cared about, I can see the complaints already. "She's too absorbed in Oliver!" "She doesn't care about anyone else but her relationship!" "Why is she even on the team if she'd rather be elsewhere!" I can actually picture the haters saying this. They already do when complaints are made about her wanting Ray to save Oliver in 323 because apparently that meant she was happy to let the city die. Ridiculous but haters usually are.

I actually feel like her wanting more out of life than suburbia is a good thing and not only makes her a more rounded character but means she's an even better fit for Oliver than originally thought. Because I think at some point Oliver would have wanted to help people again, help his city, and so it was only a matter of time before they went back. Felicity wanting to go back just made it happen sooner. I'm thrilled that Felicity wants to help the city as much as him. It just makes them compatible and a great team.

Agree. Especially about the haters. I guess I just care about OQ more than I do TA. So my priorities are different. It's not that she wanted more out of life than suburbia. It's that she kept it from OQ. That's my biggest issue.

I just wish she was not written as to have hid it from him. The last time time she was written as hiding stuff from him was about RPs supersuit. So the pattern doesn't sit well with me. Because their honesty about their present was always one of the things I loved about their relationship even when it was platonic.

I think they are very compatible & eventually would have returned to helping the people of SC. So yes FS just got him there quicker. But that's what she usually does best it get him where he needs to be, even if he doesn't know it himself.

[dtissagirl]

I'm okay with the lying because Oliver was okay with the lying. It's really simple as that for me. He literally said the words "I don't care that you lied to me". And he doesn't. And it wasn't an issue [super minor issue, even] for more than one single scene.

 

Also, she lied so there would be a ~twist~ that gave me that scene. Which is my #1 TOP FAVORITEST EVER MOST REWATCHED EVER Oliver/Felicity scene of all times, so in a way, I'm super glad she lied, or I wouldn't have "Felicity, you said there wasn't even email on Bali!", and that line is the greatest thing that ever came out of Oliver's mouth.

Edited November 3, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Angel12d]

Agree. Especially about the haters. I guess I just care about OQ more than I do TA. So my priorities are different. It's not that she wanted more out of life than suburbia. It's that she kept it from OQ. That's my biggest issue.

I just wish she was not written as to have hid it from him. The last time time she was written as hiding stuff from him was about RPs supersuit. So the pattern doesn't sit well with me. Because their honesty about their present was always one of the things I loved about their relationship even when it was platonic.

I think they are very compatible & eventually would have returned to helping the people of SC. So yes FS just got him there quicker. But that's what she usually does best it get him where he needs to be, even if he doesn't know it himself.

 

I mean, yeah, ideally I suppose it would have been better if she hadn't lied. But I wasn't that bothered? I guess because I can picture how it started, like they're in some romantic faraway place and Felicity gets a message from Diggle begging for her computer expertise and she helps him because it's Diggle, of course. Meanwhile, Oliver is laying there blissed out of his mind and so happy and he'll probably ask her what she was doing and she doesn't think it's right to tell him because look at how happy he is! Look at that smile that she rarely sees! How can she ruin that by talking about what's happening in Starling City! So she just shrugs it off and thinks maybe it's a one time thing. And only then does it happen more often, but not like every single night, so she just keeps up the pretence. 

 

I guess it's a lie I don't mind. It doesn't lessen her feelings for him. It doesn't change or affect their relationship in a big way. She kept it from him because she was trying to keep him happy. If she started lying to him for something other than that, then I'd have a problem. 

 

Also, like @dtissagirl said, her little lie enabled one of my favorite Olicity moments ever. That whole scene was perfect and highlighted how well they work as a couple, even when they disagree/argue. I love them.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Angel12d

[Genki]

For me the disconnect with Felicity will alway be because of Ray. I kind of assumed/fanwanked that Felicity was an emotional wreck in S3 and wasn't really self aware enough, during her stint on Palmer Island, to realise that she was projecting about Oliver all over Ray. And giving him massive free passes all over the place.

 

I guess I was little disconcerted about Felicity's reaction to Ray's voice because it doesn't mesh with my head cannon that she has since realised what she was doing in S3. I'm wary about the extent they will try to build up this plot and propping forced relationship once again for the spin-off.

 

I agree the Felicity was trying to give Oliver what he needs by hiding the Team Arrow-less support and I like the relationship so far this season. But I just need to get past the LOT set-up!!

Edited November 3, 2015 by Genki