Felicity Smoak: Bitch With Wifi

[Chaser]

They now have three seasons of examples as to what works and what doesn't. Their sales pitch at SDCC tells me they took away what they needed too. That is the only reason I've decided to give S4 a solid chance. Otherwise, it would have been youtube viewing.

[Chaser]

That scene in 2.02 when Oliver asks Felicity to get him and guest a cup of coffee, I see so many people focusing on Oliver's 'internal screaming' look or Felicity's 'violently.' My favorite part though was Emily's facial expressions between the 'someone broke the coffeemaker' and the 'violently.' It was this eyebrow raising well-oops look and it cracks me up every time. 

[Ceylon5]

I've been reading a lot of posts about how Felicity's characterisation was so bad in S3 and she was such a pod person, and I just wanted to offer an alternative view and say that I didn't have that take-away from the season at all.  I suspect a lot of people's reactions to Felicity's arc depended a fair amount on how they felt about Ray.  I quite like Ray, and the only very OOC character moments (which were really just a couple of lines throughout the season, including the one about Sara) that I felt Felicity had were not with him.  (For the record, I didn't have a problem with anyone's reactions in 3.17 either.  When people keep secrets and those secrets come out, stuff happens.  And generally no-one is right or wrong in those cases, and the reactions - loss of trust, anger, etc. - are all understandable.)

 

While the writing for S3 sucked across the board, and I feel they chose one of the worst possible ways to launch Oliver and Felicity's romance, I didn't find most of what happened reflecting poorly on Felicity.  She was put in a horrible position by Oliver/the plot's stupidity and she dealt with it as best she could.  In those circumstances, with Oliver in stubborn mode, I'm glad she didn't try and fail to get him to change his mind.  I'm glad she took a job that ended up being challenging and good for her and that she retained her balance of power with Ray in that job (taking time off whenever she wanted to, etc.).  I'm glad that she stayed with the team despite Oliver's actions (before and after his "death"), and that she even tried to move on emotionally, however misguided that might have been.  I liked seeing more of her.  I do agree that her story wasn't developed as intended (it ended up more focussed on the men than on her), but I don't think her personality was diminished as a result.  Actually, for me, the moment that bugged me more than any other was the one at the end when Oliver suddenly decided he wanted to be with her.  That was a huge moment for her character and she wasn't even given any lines responding to that.  I get that after 3.20 she probably kind of already felt they were together, but I think that him finally choosing her like that should 1) have been done in private, and 2) absolutely required a response of some kind from her before she just gave up everything for him and decided to trust him after he'd proven himself repeatedly untrustworthy.  (Actually that whole scene was annoying as hell - Oliver magnanimously bestowing his blessings on the other vigilantes and then deciding that he wants to be with Felicity, with zero apologies for all the crap he's put her through in repeatedly not choosing her before, nor any assurances that he really means it this time or any other acknowledgement that this wasn't their first time at this particular rodeo.)

 

So that was really my biggest beef with how the season handled her - they weakened her characterisation more with that moment than with anything else, because they spent a whole season showing Oliver letting her down, and then never gave her a chance to react to his overdue decision to choose her.  We know her trust in him had been shaken, but as soon as he changed his mind (for about the fourth time), she was willing to give everything up and trust he won't change it again the next time something goes wrong.  After the crappy way they wrote the relationship this season, they made sure that Oliver had not earned and didn't deserve Felicity's unconditional trust (wrt them having a romantic relationship) at that point in the story.  Sure, we're mostly just so relieved the stupid season is over and that Felicity and Oliver are finally together after all the contrived angst that we (and possibly Felicity too) are just saying "bygones" and hoping for better things in the future, but it does annoy me that the moment of them finally getting together officially was done so, so badly.  In all Felicity and Oliver's interactions, this was the one where I felt that Felicity didn't respond in a way that I found believable after everything that had happened to that point.  I was already sick and tired of Oliver making their relationship decisions for them, and that was one step too far, because she didn't seem to have any agency in that moment.  It was just a really, really badly written scene, like they'd written all the boring, angsty crap that came before just to get them to a point where they could have that scene, but then couldn't be bothered to acknowledge or deal with any of the boring, angsty crap in that scene.  That's the problem with knowing where you want to end up and writing PLOT to get you there.  The irony is that the scene would have worked much better if none of the boring, angsty crap had ever happened.

 

Interestingly, though, both times Felicity had sex for the first time with someone this season, she was the one to initiate it.  She didn't fight either Oliver or Ray when they broke up with her, but she went out of her way this season to reach out to and connect with people (you could include Barry in that, because she went to see him in Central City after he woke up from his coma).  Felicity spent the season trying to LIVE rather than just survive (as she said she would), and I liked that about her.  I'm going to chalk her so readily choosing to go with Oliver up to that - she knows she loves him and so she's willing to risk everything for a chance to have this experience, even if it doesn't last. Carpe diem!

[dtissagirl]

I didn't have a problem with Felicity's overall characterization either.

 

The one thing that really bugged me was that all the plotty plot plot took away her voice in a bunch of situations where imo she would have said something, but that was a side effect of making Diggle Team Oliver, and not giving Felicity anyone else she could talk to. Except for Barry in another show, and Donna in one late episode -- but then they decided that Donna was gonna tell Felicity how she feels, instead of the other way around, because this is how Arrow rolls: people are told how to feel and what to feel all the time, so it's not so much a Felicity problem, but a terribad writers problem.

 

I did however had a gigantic problem with Palmer -- I thought the writing was bad, and the acting was bad, and so my reaction a lot times to Felicity not just giving him the time of the day, but actually dating this goober was to go WTF FELICITY NO NO NO STEP AWAY FROM THE CRAZY EYES HE'LL KILL YOU AND EAT YOUR BRAINS. But that's an emotional reaction. I clearly understand the hows and whys of them bringing Palmer into the show, and why Felicity had to interact with him, so any problems I might have had with how Felicity behaved near him were colored by the fact that I DID NOT want to watch Palmer in anyway EVER. Except here's Felicity spending most of the season around the character I can't look straight into for fear he'll kill ME instead of her, and that made it impossible for me to enjoy Felicity's storyline. Because I wanted her FAR AWAY FROM IT.

 

But it has nothing to do with her being out of character. It has to do with me wanting her to clobber Palmer upside the head and kill him dead instead of dating him.

[AyChihuahua]

I hate Ray with a burning passion, so yeah, for me the biggest problem was her choosing to date him.  I too am glad she chose to build a life beyond Oliver and his mission, and I was really looking forward to her dating someone else - in fact I think she should have/would have started dating others after the S2 lunge, but obviously there was a lot going on with Slade, etc.  She's beautiful in an approachable way and smart and funny and kind.  IRL Felicity Smoak would have SO MANY MEN trying to date her.  But Ray is a misogynistic condescending creeper who thinks poor wimmun brains don't work right around cute men and who lied to her from the moment he met her (to benefit himself...Oliver lied to her to fight crime/right his father's wrongs).  I lost a lot of respect for her when she dated him, and when she kept dating him after 3.17 (plus I don't believe Roy would fail to tell her that her frigging bf electrocuted him, so for me she kept dating Ray after he intentionally electrocuted and could have killed her good friend). 

 

But I also hated that the scene of her and Oliver "deciding" to be together was all about Oliver, was really perfunctory, wasn't private, didn't involve him sincerely apologizing and convincing her he'd learned from his mistakes.  24 hours before he'd had her fully convinced he was letting her die while he married someone else.  That should take a little more recovery time and serious conversations before she was willing to quit her job and drive off into the sunset with him.  I'm on the record as hating that sunset scene, bc yeah, it's awesome for Oliver that he got to act like a total tool for a year and have no consequences beyond Digg being mildly angry with him, but the show basically made Felicity into the prize he still won at the end despite his total toolness (and stupidity, overwhelming stupidity).

 

So for me, in S3 Felicity was seriously damaged, Digg was mildly damaged, Thea was mildly damaged (she was pretty crappy in the beginning, but I like where her character ended up), Oliver was very severely damaged, so that only my prior love for him is keeping me from totally hating him, Quentin was permanently destroyed, Roy was actually improved overall, and Laurel is the same as always because I simply don't care about her.

[kismet]

@AyChihuahua brings up some very good points about Ray & Oliver. I also feel like they should have had FS date after the lunge. Part of me thinks they would have done that with BA, but his show was already a done deal so there was no need to do it. But I think showing FS moving fwd even if it was just a casual "got a date gonna leave early" comment would have been good.

 

I have to admit, I have some biases. I did not like Ray for the majority of the season. And I even hated him at points. Plus I felt he looked too old & too tall for FS (but those are shallow reasons), I have deeper reasons that I've already expressed on this forum. Frankly BR still gives me the creeps at times, when he's not acting I find him slightly adorkable, but whenever he is in front of the camera my creep-senses just fire at all engines. I'm giving him another shot because I don't wanna bring baggage to the spin-off. But yeah, the boy still not on near characters I like or tune in for.

 

I also have to admit that I love Oliver. I have from the pilot. This season did not make me hate him. I found some of decisions questionable. But his motivations & character were really not that damaged for me. I guess I am more forgiving than others. That being said, I disliked a lot of the way they wrote FS around OQ in s3. And as much as I loved them running off into the sunset. That boy has some big time explaining and apologizing to do to FS. The way they wrote that ending to me was also a ding on FS. She could have said something more to him. I get there wasn't time in the moment. Frankly, I would have said YES in a heartbeat too. But her comments in the car should have asked him more or at least told him he's got some making up to her to do. The joke about the NP annulment was funny, but that could have been a better FS moment.

 

So I guess my point is that, I didn't like the way FS acted around a character I loved & a character I hated. So its not just that she spent so much time on Palmer Island and that made her pod like. She also barely interacted with OQ in their usual manner and that also made he pod like. Before they were ever romantic, they were friends & partner, but the show & characters seemed to forget that. Even how Dig & her interacted made it seem more like she was just OQ's jilted lover/ex that was hanging around. He went so Team Oliver, that he seemed to forget that she as a person existed and she seemed okay with that. Really, her behavior to me was off for most of the season. Maybe it was her reacting to OQ's hurt or maybe it was coming under RP's influence. Either way, there was less FS for me and more Podlicity.

 

She had some great moments, but the bulk of the season was not great. I loved the different ways she grieved for OQ. I loved that she stood up to OQ when he returned from the dead. I was applauding that moment. But then the next episode she was just mean & that continued. I get that she was hurt, but they should have talked. I also understand TV show structure so I was never gonna really get a convo until sweeps. But I honestly feel like I'm still waiting for that convo. They both needed to explain their rationales to each other because I think it would have helped avoid some of the LoA crap & created a better overall plan to defeat Ras. MM could have been shown more as TA pawn/asset and less like a plot addition. The writers should have focused on making a strong villain fight & climax, and less on dysfunctional angst. It would have been better TV instead of the weak way they kept on trying to tell us Ras was such a threat by having all the stupid that seemed to float around LoA.

 

But at the end of the day, what is done is done. Her & OQ never talked which is why the plan to take down Ras probably was less than successful at times. Her & RP never really had a chance. He was head over heels for her out of nowhere (what about his dead fiancee) and she only gave him the time of day because OQ had done something stupid again. And then he just hands her the company without telling her as his parting douchebag move. If you are signing a company over to someone, you should talk it over with them first. In my mind that is worse & more controlling than when OQ made her EA. Yes she get a company, but just because the results are nice, does not make the action less culpable. I really wonder how she is gonna feel when she realizes that RP saddled her with a company without her knowledge. I'd be flattered but also pissed, because even if I deserve/want to run a company - a little heads up would be nice so I don't look like a complete idiot when the board calls me.

 

*Edited to add* - This to me was one of the biggest Podlicity moments of the season, that she didn't even glance over the documents before signing them. It wasn't just in the fine print. A quick sec screen shot of the front page explained the paperwork & yet she didn't even bother to look at it. To me for some one as intelligent as her who can't stand mysteries, this blase signing of paperwork was just not in character, but indicative of Podlicity.  

Edited August 10, 2015 by kismet

[Happy Harpy]

Felicity's characterization was imo uneven in S3. In the five episodes I saw (plus two Flash episodes) she was the Felicity Smoak I've always known and loved. In others? Not so much, at least on the paper.

 

I've been reading a lot of posts about how Felicity's characterisation was so bad in S3 and she was such a pod person, and I just wanted to offer an alternative view and say that I didn't have that take-away from the season at all.  I suspect a lot of people's reactions to Felicity's arc depended a fair amount on how they felt about Ray. 

I see what you mean but it's actually the other way around for me.

The way I feel about Ray didn't impact my view of Felicity's characterization. I dislike him immensely, I disliked the reasons he was there immensely (using Arrow as a launching device + unecessary love triangle device, one of my pet peeves) so I disliked the storyline that Felicity was stuck into immensely; which is imo another issue. But I felt that her behavior pattern was changed, and not in a good way, in order to accommodate the Ray character, and that's what made me a Ray hater. Because I love Felicity as she is.

 

Example a contrario: Although never in favor of Barry/Felicity -and G.Gustin makes him very likeable but I'm not Barry's biggest fan either- I never felt that Felicity's reactions were off so I had no problem with the way she was written during their romantic friendship. I didn't like the romantic part of the storyline, but I didn't feel that her core personality was modified in order to make it work which I appreciated. So I didn't hate it, I didn't hate Barry, and I can sincerely say that the writing was good.

 

Whereas with Ray, many of her reactions contradicted how she imo had been established for two + seasons.

Felicity is frank and honest to a fault (too many incidences to count, from S1 on). She is loyal to those she holds dear, no matter what she can lose in the process (arrestation in S1, Thea's paternity secret in S2 etc.). She takes no bullshit, not even from an angry Oliver (first day in the Arrowcave etc.) and she asks for respect (the coffee machine incident). She despises corporates sharks (Isabel). She never forgave Moira or Malcolm, so she can bear a grudge especially when people she loves are attacked.

I hate Ray with a burning passion, so yeah, for me the biggest problem was her choosing to date him.  I too am glad she chose to build a life beyond Oliver and his mission

100% yes.

I applaud that she didn't wait for Oliver when he decided he couldn't be with her, it's the Felicity I know and love. I don't think she needed another man for it, and I see her as too honest to date someone while aware she has feelings for another. But it's a subjective view. OTOH, I know one thing: the Felicity Smoak described above would never ever work for or with a man who used corporate shark methods to take a company away from her friend and manipulated her in order to succeed. I don't believe for one second that she'd ever been able to get past it and learn to like, less date, someone like him. So yes, for me Felicity was written out of character in every single of her friendly -not even romantic- interactions with Ray, simply because the premise is OOC. Not that the following was better imo, but @kismet gave several good examples already.

 

Nevertheless, I think that she was even less herself with Laurel. Felicity was outraged when Oliver, at the time one of her closest friends, lied to the Lances about Sara's fate. So her accepting not to tell Quentin that Sara was dead was already kind of a stretch for me, but actually, actively participating in deceiving him? It should illustrate the definition of OOC in the encyclopedia, imo. Moreover, Felicity and Quentin had worked together to save the city, she worried about him when the LoA was after Sara...maybe calling them "friends" is only a personal view, but although she has always been nice to Laurel, I don't see Felicity placing "are we favor friends now?" Laurel and her hare-brained schemes above someone she was emotionally closer to. Nope, nope. I can only see it as a plot device in order to impose a Laurel/Felicity friendship out of nowhere. OTOH, they didn't interact that much so it was less aggravating.

 

The problem, S3 was plot-driven. Imho TPTB decided that Laurel had to be the BC, that Ray had to be a hero and a rival for Oliver in Felicity's heart, that Malcolm had to be reinserted as a regular and redeemed at the same time, and they wrote everything in the perspective of those three characters. Thea's agency and Oliver's characterization this season were imo mostly victim of the Malcolm  issue, and Felicity's characterization also took one for the Not-Team.

[statsgirl]

Nevertheless, I think that she was even less herself with Laurel. Felicity was outraged when Oliver, at the time one of her closest friends, lied to the Lances about Sara's fate. So her accepting not to tell Quentin that Sara was dead was already kind of a stretch for me, but actually, actively participating in deceiving him? It should illustrate the definition of OOC in the encyclopedia, imo. Moreover, Felicity and Quentin had worked together to save the city, she worried about him when the LoA was after Sara...maybe calling them "friends" is only a personal view, but although she has always been nice to Laurel, I don't see Felicity placing "are we favor friends now?" Laurel and her hare-brained schemes above someone she was emotionally closer to. Nope, nope. I can only see it as a plot device in order to impose a Laurel/Felicity friendship out of nowhere. OTOH, they didn't interact that much so it was less aggravating.

I HATED what they did to Felicity to have her prop Laurel.  The "Are we favour friends now?" was beautiful snark but after that, it seemed like all her interactions with Laurel had a touch of "the popular girl likes me!" about them. Telling Laurel to suit up again was bad enough but the worst was "you have a light in you that Sara never had" which is against the show's own canon. (And that's not even mentioning how Laurel took what should have been Felicity's place in Diggle's scene about his feelings that Oliver is dead and he failed him.)

 

I much preffered Ray either in scenes with Oliver or after the Raylicity break-up but I never actively disliked how Felicity was around him until 3x17 when he dismissed her statements about Oliver because she was too emotional after telling her repeatedly that he trusted her judgement and at the end of the episode she was the one to apologise to him.  She should have made him grovel and then kicked him to the relationship curb. That was the Podlicity for me.

 

The other part that I hated was Oliver and Diggle excluding her from their planning sessions, especially when Diggle excluded her twice in Nanda Parbat (setting up her going to Ray because he was the only person in Starling City who seemed to give a damn about her and her opinions, at least he did for the next 2 episodes.  Diggle may have done a 180 when they got back and told her offscreen about the offer for plot purposes, but that doesn't incline me to forgive him for his behaviour towards Felicity this season.

 

I don't mind that she signed the documents without checking them. She trusted Ray, she'd probably signed a ton of them before as his VP, and she had other things on her mind.

Edited August 10, 2015 by statsgirl

[dtissagirl]

Oh, man. I had actually forgotten that Felicity helped Laurel to deceive Lance. [Thank you, brain, for actively erasing OOC crap like this.]

 

But I bought Felicity going to work for Palmer. I agree that under normal circumstances, she wouldn't have ever gone to work for him after the shit he pulled to get her to agree. But Oliver had just dumped her, and on top of that, Sara died, and Oliver told her he expected to die soon. So Felicity made an impulsive decision to accept Palmer's job offer -- without even knowing what the actual job would be -- so that she could have something -- anything -- in her life that was hers alone. I mean, I didn't like it that she went to work for Palmer, but I didn't think it was OOC behavior.

Edited August 10, 2015 by dtissagirl

[statsgirl]

I think going to work for Palmer was her attempt to have something in her life that is good and moving forward.   Staying fulltime in the lair with depressed Oliver?  Not good. She was willing to take a step back in her career to have something positive.  Not to mention, she did need a job and medical and dental benefits.

 

Sleeping with Palmer?  I understand it even though I don't like it.  Oliver had dumped her repeatedly, Diggle had got mad at her for closing the door with Brick's men in an attempt to save him and Roy and he had just kicked her out of Team Arrow conferences, and she wanted someone she could keep alive.

 

You could say that Sara died and Oliver and Diggle pushed Felicity aside so that the only people she would have to go to would be Ray and Laurel.

Edited August 10, 2015 by statsgirl

[Chaser]

Felicity is an odd case for me. Action wise there is nothing she did that I take issue with, most of my problems come from the fact that she was mute. And Felicity isn't mute.

[Ceylon5]

Felicity worked for Isabel when Isabel owned half of QC, so I can't really see why she'd have an issue with Ray for being a 'corporate shark' or whatever.  My view of Felicity is that she's pretty morally grey.  She's in love with a serial killer (who's mostly given up killing for lent and apparently has a heart of gold and all that, but is still, at the end of the day, a serial killer), breaks the law on a daily basis with her hacking and is an accessory to multiple murders and other crimes.  It would be a bit hypocritical of her to judge other people for colouring outside the lines without at least considering that there might be more to them than meets the eye.  I actually like her for ultimately giving Ray the benefit of the doubt.  And after getting to know him she ended up liking him, which is fine by me.

 

In any event, I think Felicity flies off the handle pretty easily, but I also think once her brain has caught up with her mouth, that she usually gives people a chance.  And she's really quite quick to trust people - Oliver, Walter, Diggle, Barry, Sara, Ray, Barry's team and so on.  It could be considered either a strength or a weakness, but it's always been one of her characteristics.

 

I also can't fault someone for trying to move on emotionally if they think it's never going to work out with someone they love.  Maybe the new person will end up being just a rebound (both she and Ray were aware that they were both on the rebound, so there was no dishonesty or deception involved), and maybe it'll become more and work out, but either way, it's better than sitting about pining for something you can't have.  And while Ray may not have been her first choice, she seemed to be happy with him, which was the objective.  Again, better than pining.

 

As to the document Ray had her sign; I didn't see that as manipulative on his side or particularly careless on her side.  He'd recently nearly died and that must have made him think about his will (which is what that document effectively was).  I don't think he was planning on actually giving her the company; I think he just wanted to have a contingency plan in case something did happen to him.  He trusted Felicity to do right by the company if that happened.  I haven't informed the beneficiaries of my will that they're in it or what I've left them, and I don't really see why Ray should either.  If Felicity doesn't want to run the company, she doesn't have to, but Ray knew she cared about it, so he left it to her should the worst happen.  And as an executive, Felicity probably signed documents all day long, and none of the people I know who have to sign documents a lot ever read them first.  I can put something in front of any of them and tell them to sign and they will, without having any idea what's in it, because they trust me, just as Felicity trusted Ray.

 

I agree that her interactions with Laurel often seemed off to me, particularly since I'd analysed all their interactions in S1 and S2 before the season started and there was just no basis there for friendship to suddenly spring out of nowhere.  I knew I'd hate it if they did that and hate it I did.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Ceylon5

[Happy Harpy]

The "Are we favour friends how?" was beautiful snark but after that, it seemed like all her interactions with Laurel had a touch of "the popular girl likes me!" about them.

I loved it because it was so very Felicity. As I said, she was always nice with Laurel, especially when the latter had obvious issues. But nice is not dumb, and I was vindicated to see Felicity acknowledge the fact that Laurel never returned the favor and assumed she could use her as her personal assistant.

Unfortunately, like Ray's creepiness, the writers thought that lampshading it once was enough to make it A-OK and erase the problem. It doesn't work like this for me.

 

Felicity showed such a moral strength in the worst moments, including when she consented in less than a minute to be kidnapped by a madman with a syringe and faith in Oliver for sole defense. I get that everyone have a breaking point, and need a job, but she's a graduate from MIT and she showed several times that she knew her value. I think she could have found somewhere else to work for - I'm quite certain that her friend Walter would have hired her at the Starling City Bank (?) in the blink of an eye. But...

 

You could say that Sara died and Oliver and Diggle pushed Felicity aside so that the only people she would have to go to would be Ray and Laurel.

Just like Moira died, Walter was forgotten and Roy/Oliver were put at odds with her so that Malcolm was the only person Thea could turn to. I think we have a pattern.

But after "the three of us against the world" at the end of S2, it made no sense that Diggle and Oliver would push Felicity aside. Not with the degree of trust and closeness they attained. So for me the ropes were obvious and the maneuver failed.

 

Felicity worked for Isabel when Isabel owned half of QC, so I can't really see why she'd have an issue with Ray for being a 'corporate shark' or whatever.  My view of Felicity is that she's pretty morally grey.  She's in love with a serial killer (who's mostly given up killing for lent and apparently has a heart of gold and all that, but is still, at the end of the day, a serial killer), breaks the law on a daily basis with her hacking and is an accessory to multiple murders and other crimes.  It would be a bit hypocritical of her to judge other people for colouring outside the lines without at least considering that there might be more to them than meets the eye.  I actually like her for ultimately giving Ray the benefit of the doubt.  And after getting to know him she ended up liking him, which is fine by me.

 

In any event, I think Felicity flies off the handle pretty easily, but I also think once her brain has caught up with her mouth, that she usually gives people a chance.  And she's really quite quick to trust people - Oliver, Walter, Diggle, Barry, Sara, Ray, Barry's team and so on.  It could be considered either a strength or a weakness, but it's always been one of her characteristics.

Felicity didn't work for Isabel, she worked for Oliver in his family company. He was the CEO. It happened that Isabel bought half of it in a hostile OPA, which Felicity did all that was in her power to thwart. She did have a problem with Isabel's presence and she disliked her.

Felicity can trust easily, including assassins like Sara, but I have yet to see her trust anyone who did wrong to her friends. Other than Ray, who used underhanded tactics to take QC from Oliver, and therefore did wrong to one of her friends. Therefore, it made no sense to me that she should trust him or try to know him, no more than she trusted or tried to know Isabel.

S2 told me that Felicity was willing to forgive an offense/a wrongdoing after some serious groveling...er, a sincere, formal apology ("are you talking to your quiver?"). Yet, IIRC the writers never had Ray regret or apologize for any of it, nor for his inappropriate behavior -which Felicity used the word "stalker" in universe, to qualify.

I couldn't disagree more with your views of Felicity as a morally grey character (illegal and immoral aren't the same imo) or of Oliver as a serial killer. Vigilantism isn't my cup of tea IRL, but it isn't the same as criminals killing for personal profit or just for the kicks.

[AyChihuahua]

Felicity breaks the rules to do what she thinks is right, not to steal from people.  If she wanted to steal, she'd be a billionaire, since she can hack into people's bank accounts and retirement funds in about 22 seconds.  But she doesn't break rules/the law to get something for herself, even when she/Team Arrow could have used the money.  She donated Clinton Hogue's purloined funds to Greenpeace and a local charity.  Ray hacked into QC and tricked her into helping him do it to TAKE QC FOR HIMSELF.

[statsgirl]

I think Felicity has her own moral code, which is something I'd appreciate in her as a smart, cognitively complex character.  Helping other people is pretty high up on it, which is one reason why she relented and came back when Oliver didn't arrow the single dad and decided to go after The Dodger in 1x16 even though he wasn't on The List.

 

One reason that I don't fault her for taking Ray's job is that Oliver had given up. He'd given up on getting QC back, saying it would be in better hands than his now, and he'd given up on life, telling her he was going to end up on that slab himself one day.  Maybe she has a sub-category for quitters and they don't get the benefits her friends do.  She wouldn't let Laurel quit being the Black Canary (stupid!) and even though she herself quit TA when they thought that Oliver had died and refused to help Ray with his chip, she was back again at it the next day.

 

The more I think about it, the more I dislike that Felicity was willing to give up everything and take off with Oliver (she should have at least made it a leave of absence rather than quitting PT),   But she's almost lost Oliver twice in quick succession, first to the LoA and then falling off the viaduct, and she'd almost died herself. Maybe she was just tired of fighting and wanted the pain to stop. I know I did.

[apinknightmare]

I think that the idea of some time away after the year she had was probably incredibly appealing, and difficult to say no to at the time. I can't blame her for that. It would've been nice for her to take a leave of absence, but I'm guessing the quitting aspect has something to do with Ray exploding himself into mini status. If she was still an employee of the company, she would've been required to return.

Edited August 10, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Happy Harpy]

One reason that I don't fault her for taking Ray's job is that Oliver had given up. He'd given up on getting QC back, saying it would be in better hands than his now, and he'd given up on life, telling her he was going to end up on that slab himself one day.  Maybe she has a sub-category for quitters and they don't get the benefits her friends do.  She wouldn't let Laurel quit being the Black Canary (stupid!) and even though she herself quit TA when they thought that Oliver had died and refused to help Ray with his chip, she was back again at it the next day.

Just in case, I don't blame/fault Felicity for anything, I blame the writers. Her behavior with Ray and Laurel just doesn't compute with what I had seen of her so far, and the writing failed to give me acceptable reasons for the changes.

 

I agree that never giving up is one of the keys of Felicity's character. Her upbringing explains this I guess, she had to earn everything she had. If she gave up, she could end like her mother and escaping this fate was obviously her fuel, in spite of her love for Donna.

This is even why I never bought her acceptance of Oliver's refusal to be with her at the end of the Calm. Had she not known he loved her, yes. But I couldn't see her give up on the man she loved and who loved her back, and on a chance of happiness with him (and not point out that together or not, she still shared the danger of his life as a vigilante).

I also think it makes Felicity and Oliver complementary, in a good way.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Ceylon5]

Felicity breaks the rules to do what she thinks is right, not to steal from people.

 

Exactly.  That's what I mean by her being morally grey.  Like Robin Hood, stealing from the rich to give to the poor.  Doing something wrong for what you believe to be the right reasons.  The ends justifying the means.  That kind of thing.  If these were real people, I'd consider many of the things they've done to be way beyond the pale (like Oliver's serial killing in S1), but this is a silly TV show, so I take everything with a large dollop of salt.

 

I found this video by a hacker named Keren Elazari to be very interesting.  She even mentions hacking making her feel like she has superpowers!

[quarks]

I think Felicity ended up working for Ray Palmer to a) use her status as a popular character to help introduce Ray Palmer and set up a second spinoff - a strategy that worked, and b) to let the show continue to use that QC/PT set even after the Queens had lost the company.

[statsgirl]

I think that in theory the idea of Felicity working for Palmer was a good one:  it gave her something in her life beyond Oliver (which was a complaint during season 2 that her entire life revolved around Oliver; it moved her ahead professional for those who didn't agree with MG that being Oliver EA was a step up; and they were hoping that the magic that worked to give Barry a spin-off would work with Ray too.

 

The problem was that in reality, Ray came off too creepy and the 30s srewball comedy banter didn't work while they were pushing Raylicity.  When they backed off from it (e.g. Can I have the keys to your helicopter?) or put Ray in scenes with Oliver, he was much better.

 

 

Exactly.  That's what I mean by her being morally grey.

I think of 'grey' as being flexible or variable so I don't quite see her that way.  Anyone remember the Heinz dilemma and Kohlberg's stages of moral development from into psych?  I think of Felicity as being at

Stage six (universal ethical principles driven), moral reasoning is based on abstract reasoning using universal ethical principles. Laws are valid only insofar as they are grounded in justice, and a commitment to justice carries with it an obligation to disobey unjust laws. Legal rights are unnecessary, as social contracts are not essential for deontic moral action. ... the individual acts because it is right, and not because it avoids punishment, is in their best interest, expected, legal, or previously agreed upon.

[wonderwall]

I was just trying to be sassy. I know RP had more serious & well-thought out reasons for giving her the company. And his feelings probably didn't play into it that much. I just think the fact that she charmed him so quickly by just being herself played a lot into that. Their working, platonic & romantic relationship all blossomed out of her being her. IDK how she does it but she's got this magical influence on people that just makes them do things and trust her. She's hero catnip and let's face it can get a lot of people to eat out of the palm of her hand.

 

I think that it's because Felicity is generally an optimistic, vibrant, supportive, lively person which is what attracts broody, jaded people or just people who have tragic pasts. I think those characteristics that Felicity has brings out the best in said dark heroes with tragic pasts as well as give them hope. I just think Felicity just makes our brooding heroes want to be better because they know she has faith in them, and that goes a long way. 

 

ETA: this was so terribly worded and written, I profusely apologize

Edited August 14, 2015 by wonderwall

[tv echo]

I've been thinking about the explosion of DC Comics properties on or coming to TV (Arrow, Flash, Gotham, LoT, Supergirl, Titans, Powerless) - and I think the argument can be made that if EBR had not been cast as Felicity, then none of them would currently exist. Sound farfetched?  If EBR had not been cast as Felicity on Arrow, then:

 

• Felicity would've stayed a one-episode character with an Easter egg name. (MG said as much in that CBR interview: "Had we cast anyone other than Emily Rickards, she would have been a one off.")

 

• There would be no original Team Arrow with its complementary team dynamic among Oliver, Diggle and Felicity.

 

• There would be no natural chemistry between Oliver (SA) and Felicity (EBR), giving rise to  Olicity, and attracting the attention of network execs, producers, writers, fans and media.

 

• Arrow likely would not have lasted past one or two seasons without the original Team Arrow dynamic and Olicity potential. (How many people would've kept watching a show that focused on dour Oliver, sour Laurel and stoic Diggle?)

 

• Without a successful Arrow, there'd be no Flash spinoff and likely no Gotham - and certainly GG would not have been cast as Barry Allen since GG chem-tested with EBR.

 

• Without the amazing success of The Flash and continued success of Arrow, there's be no LoT spinoff, and likely no Titans, no Supergirl and no Powerless.

 

• Also, arguably, without the success of his superhero shows, GB would not have gotten a green light for Blindspot.

 

Of course, the counter-argument is that Mark Pedowitz was so determined to attract the male demo to the CW that he would have made sure the Arrow EPs made changes - such as adding a bunch of new cast members, including a lighter character to bring humor to the show and maybe a new love interest for Oliver. Would it have worked?  Who knows... but we certainly would not have had the original TA or Olicity.

Edited August 15, 2015 by tv echo

[bethy]

I wonder, though, if Laurel would have seemed so sour if there hadn't been the brightness of EBR's Felicity in contrast. I don't know if I would have been so anti-Laurel as a LI for Oliver if I hadn't been so charmed by the pop in the Oliver/Felicity scenes.

[EmilyBettFan]

I think she would've been sour still lol.

[statsgirl]

Well said, tv echo.  (I think a certain fansite that Shall Not Be Named should have a look at those arguments.

Of course, the counter-argument is that Mark Pedowitz was so determined to attract the male demo to the CW that he would have made sure the Arrow EPs made changes - such as adding a bunch of new cast members, including a lighter character to bring humor to the show and maybe a new love interest for Oliver. Would it have worked?  Who knows... but we certainly would not have had the original TA or Olicity.

It might have worked somewhat but I don't think it would have caught many of the audience that Arrow has, including non-comics reading women and some guys who are really into Felicity.  Cisco is lighter and funnier but I don't think I would have watched if he had been the new person on the team.  The combinatin of Felicity being funny, light and the Oliver/Felicity chemistry really made it work.

 

And they needed Arrow to be GOOD, not just "good enough" to launch The Flash and the other shows.  It's funny to think that DC owes Berlanti etc for their TV shows being a success while their movies flounder and yet the TV shows are the poor cousins of the movies (e.g. losing Deadshot because he's in the movie, not having enough villains for the TV shows).

 

I wonder, though, if Laurel would have seemed so sour if there hadn't been the brightness of EBR's Felicity in contrast. I don't know if I would have been so anti-Laurel as a LI for Oliver if I hadn't been so charmed by the pop in the Oliver/Felicity scenes.

My impression of Laurel came from the first episode and there's been nothing I've seen since to change it.  Had there been no Felicity, I wouldn't have had the chance to change it since I stopped watching until I was channell-fliiping one day and saw the Shakespeare scene from 1x03.

[tarotx]

No Laurel would have still been Laurel.I'm not an Uber Olicity fan (more so Oliver and Sara though not shipping because sister swaping. They are just my favs so I like them in scenes.) But Laurel/Oliver drained my mood since season 1. My BF recently watched some s1 and s2 episodes with me and he said Laurel seems like the ex wife more so than ex girlfriend. The ex wife you are forced to engage because of reasons(in real life it's usually shared children).

Edited August 15, 2015 by tarotx

[GreatAtBoats]

Am I to believe that they rewrote 1x04 at the last minute because of EBR? I ask because Felicity had a significant if small role in 1x04 -- though larger than her role in 1x03 -- that would have had to go to a different character originally and be rewritten specifically for her between when her scene in 1x03 was shot and when 1x04 started production, if indeed Felicity was always going to be a one-off until EBR just dazzled everyone with her delivery.

EBR's impact on those early decisions frequently feels exaggerated by fans in the retelling. Even EBR has stated that the role was "possibly recurring" when she auditioned, and yet some people would have you believe that the idea of having Felicity in more than just that one scene wasn't even considered until EBR showed up.

[apinknightmare]

The fans aren't the ones exaggerating - Marc Guggenheim himself said she was intended to be a one-off appearance. The fact that she was told it might be a "possibly recurring" character doesn't matter much. Possible does not equal definite. 

 

And I suppose they wrote her in to 1x04 after the president of WB (wasn't it him? I can't remember) said he wanted to see more of her. They planted a seed in those scenes with Walter that didn't play out until 7-ish episodes later, so yeah. Adding her scenes in that episode that had absolutely no effect on any other story lines does not require a rewrite. We don't even know if there was another character intended to be given her scenes. Who knows how Oliver was originally supposed to find out about the second book of names (if he was supposed to find out about it at all).

Edited August 15, 2015 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

It was the network head that wanted more of her. And SA wanted more. And the writers.The inertia was just so strong.

Not sure what the show would have been without her. She's not my fav but she keeps me invested in the show.

[quarks]

Am I to believe that they rewrote 1x04 at the last minute because of EBR? I ask because Felicity had a significant if small role in 1x04 -- though larger than her role in 1x03 -- that would have had to go to a different character originally and be rewritten specifically for her between when her scene in 1x03 was shot and when 1x04 started production, if indeed Felicity was always going to be a one-off until EBR just dazzled everyone with her delivery.

EBR's impact on those early decisions frequently feels exaggerated by fans in the retelling. Even EBR has stated that the role was "possibly recurring" when she auditioned, and yet some people would have you believe that the idea of having Felicity in more than just that one scene wasn't even considered until EBR showed up.

 

Answering in the Behind the Scenes thread.

[lemotomato]

EBR's impact on those early decisions frequently feels exaggerated by fans in the retelling. Even EBR has stated that the role was "possibly recurring" when she auditioned, and yet some people would have you believe that the idea of having Felicity in more than just that one scene wasn't even considered until EBR showed up.

From the recent interview with comicbookresources, straight from MG's mouth:

 

I mean, Felicity was never part of the original plan of the show. She was supposed to be a one off. Had we cast anyone other than Emily Rickards, she would have been a one off.

So... how are fans exaggerating EBR's impact again?

[frenchtoast]

Please, talk about the show and not about the fans. 

 

As it says in the link:

Talk about the show, not how great or not great fans' opinions of the show or various ships are. Period. End of thought. Stop harping on various fan groups. It's not on topic, it isn't relevant to the show. It's alienating other posters, it's rude.

[wingster55]

I'm sorry...are we crediting Felicity/EBR for not only the success of Arrow but also the creation of all the other shows? That seems a bit much.

Also if she didn't exist past 1.03...then Thea might have had a bit of a humorous role with Oliver as with ep 6, or that might have gone to Tommy. (Also Thea might not have been sent to Harper Island) 

[apinknightmare]

Neither Thea nor Tommy would've lightened up the team dynamic, which is why DR said they needed EBR/Felicity. They were never going to let Thea in on Oliver's secret any earlier than they had to (same with Laurel). And Tommy's disapproval was pretty key to the storyline, so...Thea and Tommy could've possibly had a humorous role with Oliver, but it wouldn't have given the Arrow cave the same dynamic. 

 

I don't think that Arrow would've done as well had they continued with the mood and brood without a Felicity-like character being brought in, but it is a bit much to credit her with GG being cast for The Flash. 

Edited August 16, 2015 by apinknightmare

[wingster55]

If Tommy had lived past the Undertaking, I definitely think it would've been heading in that direction. Actually I think if that incident where the girl ended up ODing never happened..Tommy would have been integrated into the foundry.

[Starfish35]

I don't agree. I think Tommy would have gone dark side if he'd lived. I think that was the original intention before they decided to kill him off instead.

[tangerine95]

Also while Tommy is a lighter funnier character,he just wouldn't be able to help establish the dynamic in team arrow that Felicity did.He still saw Oliver hook up with Laurel so that tension would be there.His father just killed 500 people,I doubt he would be bringing in the lightness to the arrow cave.He  has no real skills to help the team with.Felicity also gave them the popular alternative love story they needed. And I agree Tommy would have gone dark if he lived.But since the big emotional impact of that storyline depended on L/O still being a thing they had to kill him off instead.

 

I like Thea but she was a spoiled brat.She wouldn't come close to bringing what Felicity did to the arrow cave,even in season 2.

 

 

 

[apinknightmare]

If Tommy had lived past the Undertaking, I definitely think it would've been heading in that direction. Actually I think if that incident where the girl ended up ODing never happened..Tommy would have been integrated into the foundry.

I disagree. I think Tommy was always going to go dark, because there's no drama in Oliver's BFF being okay with The Hood. But I'm not sure what that has to do with Felicity? She was in the Foundry before the OD and before the Undertaking.

Edited August 16, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

I don't agree that EBR/Felicity was the reason GG was cast as The Flash at all. I think they used their chemistry as an easier way of fitting Barry into the story in s2. It was a nice way of introducing him, as well as exploring some hints of jealousy from Oliver at seeing the two together.

 

But there's no doubt that EBR's inclusion on the show allowed them to explore different dynamics, all the while allowing them to extend the time Oliver chose to keep his secret from his family. It worked on all levels. 

[Chaser]

I wouldn't say that Emily/Felicity lead to GG being cast, but I would say a case could be made that Felicitys popularity helped The Flash. IIRC, Arrow had very little going for it in the way of buzz. Critics took more notice of it when Team Arrow was formed and the show picked up in fandom when Olicity started catching on. If Team Arrow and Olicity never happened, I'm not sure a spin off would have been in the cards. It's all 20/20.

[statsgirl]

I agree that they needed someone lighter to help the dynamic. I think they also needed a female member of the team who appealed to both male and female audiences.  (The days when a team could be all male are gone.)  Neither Laurel nor Thea could be that character in s1, Helena came on dark and while it's possible McKenna could have worked, she didn't have the popular appeal of Felicity.

 

 If Team Arrow and Olicity never happened, I'm not sure a spin off would have been in the cards. It's all 20/20.

That's the thing, I think.  Arrow's ratings just kept going up and so they decided to try for a spin-off during s2.  If Arrow hadn't been successful, there's no reason to think that CW would have offered them the chance for a spin-off.

[dtissagirl]

I think they were gonna bring in someone else who could perform as the Procedural Tech Geek if EBR/Felicity never happened.

 

They needed someone to fill that narrative role first and foremost. Between Oliver, Diggle, and Laurel [who was gonna be part of the investigations in their original plan], there wasn't anyone to do that. Maybe the SCPD guy would have been let in on the secret. Maybe someone at CNRI would happen to be a tech genius. Or maybe they'd just keep going for rando people at Queen Consolidated until they settled on someone.

 

But they needed someone to do the CSI/technobabble/exposition part of the show that investigated criminals, and they didn't have anyone already on the cast who could do that. Neither Tommy nor Thea could perform that role.

[statsgirl]

There are two roles that Felicity fills and sometimes we get them conflated.

 

The first is the go-to tech geek, which I think they only realized that they needed after the response at SDCC to the pilot episode (How could Oliver, who has been on an island for 5 years, know how to do all that tech stuff?)

 

The second is a person to lighten up the show, and I think they didn't realize they needed someone in that role until they cast EBR and saw what she was doing for Oliver and later for the show overall.

 

I was wondering how Laurel would have fit in on Team Arrow being a prosecutor but I guess if she had worked out she would have stayed at CNRI defending the little people and gradually joining The Hood in his missions.  Thank goodness for Berlanti's flexibility and ability to spot what's working and what isn't.

 

ETA:  A third role that Felicity has is to advance Oliver's growth as a person and towards being the Green Arrow, as Diggle does, but I assume that Laurel would have filled that role if Felicity had not happened.

Edited August 16, 2015 by statsgirl

[tv echo]

The EPs have given somewhat conflicting info as to how much EBR's Felicity factored into GG's casting as Barry Allen (it could just be a chicken-and-egg argument, or just a lucky confluence of factors) - from a Dec. 3, 2013 IGN article ...

There are some pretty notable sparks on Arrow between Barry and Felicity Smoak (Emily Bett Rickards) and Kreisberg explained, “It was just something we were talking about when we were figuring out how we were going to bring him in. We spent a lot of time talking about Barry, even before the pilot aspect, just how we were going to introduce him in these episodes. Especially with the way the season had been going, talking about Oliver and Felicity and their growing relationship or feelings for each other, the fact that Barry and Felicity are so similar and they're both a little bit uncomfortable in their own skins and both very likable and personable, it just seemed like they would instantly hit it off, which would complicate things for Oliver even more. It felt like the right way to go. One of the things we did when we were testing some of the finalists was Emily Bett Rickards came down from Canada to read [with them] and the minute we saw her read with Grant, it was a done deal.”

Executive producer Greg Berlanti couldn’t resist joking, “Yeah, we wanted to make sure he didn't seem like jailbait next to her!” Gustin exclaimed, in reply, “I am older than her!”

*  *  *

While the Arrow producers know fans have some skepticism about Gustin’s youthful appearance, Berlanti stressed they went with him because they felt he was the right actor for the role. “The tricky thing about casting this role is we were trying to hit a moving target in that if we were just creating a character out of nothing, that nobody had any kind of preconceived awareness of, it would be a lot easier,” said Berlanti. “But this, we knew the character that we were trying to honor and the spirit of the kind of character we were trying to bring to the show. Then we went into casting and we didn’t even have a pilot script. When we cast Arrow, we had a pilot script and you go out to all the actors and everybody reads the whole script. We had sides [script pages]. So really, basically off these sides, we were just looking for someone who was the essence of the character. And in addition, you're looking for someone who fits into the Arrow universe we have but really can potentially have the promise of their own universe and their own show. And had we not found Grant, I'm not sure we would have done the character. We looked at everybody -- certainly the largest search I've ever been a part of for a TV show -- and he just was the part. It suddenly didn’t become about age, it didn't become about any of those other things, other than that, ‘Wow, if I were a kid and I got to watch the living embodiment of The Flash, this is who I'd want to see do it.’ So that's our real hope with these episodes is that when people watch them, even before he's become The Flash, that they connect with him in the way that we did.”

Edited August 17, 2015 by tv echo

[EmilyBettFan]

That really reads as she was a big part as to why Grant got the job.

[kismet]

If Tommy had lived past the Undertaking, I definitely think it would've been heading in that direction. Actually I think if that incident where the girl ended up ODing never happened..Tommy would have been integrated into the foundry.

 

I would have loved to see this. But for multiple reasons as people mentioned before. It just wasn't a role they could have squeezed Tommy into. He had no tech genius skills and that is what Team Arrow needed. Realistically, the team needed someone to hack & track down criminals once the handy-dandy notebook ran out of names. So unless he went to genius school over the hiatus it just wouldn't work out for him. If he had survived I could have seen him being TA's finance guy or mascot. But sadly, I feel that the writers would have taken him dark.

I don't agree. I think Tommy would have gone dark side if he'd lived. I think that was the original intention before they decided to kill him off instead.

I wonder if Barrowman's interest & availability had a lot to do with them choosing him as the dark archer over CD. They were very nebulous about Tommy's burial. So they could have either way. SL & LoA could have brought TM back as dark archer with a LP dip. He also could have been mirakured for revenge & secretly trained by Slade instead of Isabel. CD as the dark archer would have also been a good foil for LL/BC. But once the show moved towards O/F over O/L, LLs foil was no longer important. And if JB was interested they just might seized the momentum & went with it. CD seems to have moved on. But it is sad that he is not on the show, because he did bring a light to the show & OQ, problem was his character had no skills that fit their plot.

-----------

Felicity & EBR are just a multipurpose, multifunctional tool & character for the Arrowverse. Her character can just do so many different things, provides a useful & believable skill set and the actress can bring out so many different interactions from her colleagues. I don't think GG got the job just because of her, but it seems like their chemistry helped to solidify whatever potential they saw in him over other finalists.

 

FS/EBR is the Swiss Army Knife of character/cast, you should never leave home without it. Every successful mission needs one.

[dtissagirl]

but we were getting Smoak Family Drama sprinkled into the script unnecessarily and really quite pathetically even when it was just Felicity on the show (see, for example: Felicity making the bomb she had to drop on Oliver about Thea's paternity -- only because she took it upon herself to go looking into his mother's affairs for some reason -- about her and her abandonment issues).

 

Other folks already tackled the part about why Felicity was looking into Moira's affairs -- because Walter asked her to -- but I want to talk about Felicity making the secret about her and her abandonment issues. Which I agree that she did. The writing made Felicity struggle with telling a secret that wasn't hers to tell, for fear of abandonment. She knew it wasn't her secret to tell [hence going to Moira]. She also knew she couldn't hide it from Oliver if Moira didn't fess up.

 

I mean, she struggled with it so much, dudebro was half-naked hammering a giant tire truck in front of her and SHE DIDN'T EVEN LOOK AT HIM.

 

But there was a clear narrative reason for them giving Felicity a personal issue:

 

The way they set up the conflict in this episode was with Moira trying to manipulate Felicity into not telling Oliver. Moira was able to see Felicity's weakness -- fear of losing Oliver -- and used it against her. But if it weren't for Felicity's abandonment issues, where's the fear of losing Oliver? She probably wouldn't even have gone to Moira first. She'd just tell Oliver, because she wouldn't fear losing him, and the episode would have ran super short, I guess.

[statsgirl]

Going to Moira first also gave us insight into Felicity, that no matter what the possible cost to herself, she will do what she thinks is the right thing to do, and into Moira, that she will do whatever it takes to protect her children and keep them from knowing the bad things.  I guess we already knew that about Moira, but I prefer seeing again to telling.

 

(Oliver being pouty because Felicity wasn't paying attention to half-naked him and then promising she wouldn't lose him was all well and good in that episode if only in the next episode he hadn't blocked her out to attach himself to Sara.)

[Guest]

At that point in the show I was starting to get annoyed by the complete lack of backstory or knowledge about Felicity beyond her genius with computers, so personally I was very happy that Felicity internally made the secret about her abandonment issues. FINALLY, we learned something about her. 

 

I know some people would be very happy if Felicity stayed that comic relief IT girl, sitting in her seat, throwing out a cringey one liner every now and then, but I don't want that and it wouldn't be realistic to learn more about all the characters around her while she remains stagnant just to satisfy comic canon. 

[GreatAtBoats]

From the recent interview with comicbookresources, straight from MG's mouth:

So... how are fans exaggerating EBR's impact again?

I was talking about a contingent of fans who word it not the way Guggenheim does, but as though they had absolutely never even considered the possibility of using Felicity more than once until EBR showed up, which is contradicted by EBR herself in her statements that the role was said to be possibly recurring when she auditioned for it.

 

 

Other folks already tackled the part about why Felicity was looking into Moira's affairs -- because Walter asked her to -- but I want to talk about Felicity making the secret about her and her abandonment issues. Which I agree that she did. The writing made Felicity struggle with telling a secret that wasn't hers to tell, for fear of abandonment. She knew it wasn't her secret to tell [hence going to Moira]. She also knew she couldn't hide it from Oliver if Moira didn't fess up.

 

I mean, she struggled with it so much, dudebro was half-naked hammering a giant tire truck in front of her and SHE DIDN'T EVEN LOOK AT HIM.

 

But there was a clear narrative reason for them giving Felicity a personal issue:

 

The way they set up the conflict in this episode was with Moira trying to manipulate Felicity into not telling Oliver. Moira was able to see Felicity's weakness -- fear of losing Oliver -- and used it against her. But if it weren't for Felicity's abandonment issues, where's the fear of losing Oliver? She probably wouldn't even have gone to Moira first. She'd just tell Oliver, because she wouldn't fear losing him, and the episode would have ran super short, I guess.

 

Lots of things are done for narrative purposes and episodes would be shorter if those things didn't happen, of course. The writers needing to pad out an episode is not the reason why, within the story, Felicity did anything she did. I mean, if we excuse one fictional character for being a fictional character whose decisions are dictated by their writers, it has to be done for every character all the time, doesn't it?

As for Walter "asking her to," LOL, yeah, Walter asked her to look into Moira. More than a year prior to the episode in question. When he was her boss, which he no longer was in 2x13. It was no longer any of Felicity's business. If she simply forgot to unflag Moira's accounts and received the alert, she could have ignored it. Because, again, it was no longer any of Felicity's business. Or Walter's, quite frankly.

 

But it didn't stop there, did it? Because even if you want to chalk her initial actions up to Walter having asked her to keep an eye on Moira's accounts, his response to Felicity informing him of what came up was to tell her that he would handle it. And instead of just walking away at that point, she decided to probe further on her own.

 

Don't put it on Walter. Felicity did what Felicity wanted to do.

 

Oliver being pouty because Felicity wasn't paying attention to half-naked him

Oliver realized Felicity was too preoccupied with something to pay attention to him as he expressed concern for Sara's safety and so asked her what was up.

 

I will never understand the need to try to reduce Oliver to a self-absorbed dickbag who has no concern for anyone but himself and Felicity.