Felicity Smoak: Bitch With Wifi

[statsgirl]

I agree that putting on the mask seems like it's in the fan-service category. The "Please save Oliver" still makes me cringe.

 

But on the island, before Diggle leaves them for a moment, there is an exchange of looks and nods between him and Felicity.  i can see Felicity having asked him to give her a moment to talk to Oliver alone about what was that thing at the Manor anyway, if she hasn't had the chance to talk to Oliver alone yet.

[dtissagirl]

I found it fitting that Felicity put the mask on Oliver. She was the first one to believe he was a true hero way back in S1 when Det. Lance was interrogating her; she's the one who kept working on the Arrowcave when Oliver ditched the team to go manpain alone in the island; she was the one who had his new bow made for him. Yeah, it was filled with symbolism, but I buy it -- she inspires him to BE a hero, so she gets to mark the moment while calling him a hero to his face. That's one of my favorite moments among all superhero related media I consume. It really felt to me like an organic progression of their partnership.

[catrox14]

 

I still don't see why she was the one to put on the mask, or her "please save Oliver" comment (when Moira and Thea were in more danger), her speech after Diggle conveniently left (also why did he give them a moment alone in the finale..why did they need one?)

 

Who else would have put the mask on Oliver? Diggle? Roy?  Felicity made the MOST sense out of anyone that knew his identity.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the "Give you two a minute" was tied to the kissing scene that was left out. I suspect that either Oliver or Felicity told Diggle about the kiss and then he thought they needed a minute to themselves.

[dtissagirl]

And it fits the episode so well. Three Ghosts is an entire Hero's Journey encapsulated in 42 minutes. Oliver starts the episode defeated and dying, he goes through trials, and hallucinates the people he believes he disappointed the most, gets the pep talk from the Tommy in his head, gets back on his feet, an ends the episode in a scene that looks like he's sorta being knighted. Felicity's gesture is the real life confirmation that what fake Tommy said is true. It's all symbolic because the entire episode relies heavily on symbolism.

Edited June 25, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Password]

Ok so I'm not a comic book reader, but it sounds like "knighting" a hero with a mask is a big deal. I thought why didn't he put it on himself? But I believe Felicity is the only character to even call him a hero (to that point) so, as much as it was "hmm ok" it wasn't unearned on her part I don't think.

Edited June 25, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[dtissagirl]

I'm only a half-assed comic book reader, but yeah, I think it has to do with the trope that you don't call yourself a hero until others see you as a hero. And in Oliver's story, Felicity is the one who's seen him as a hero for the longest time, so she gets to do the honors.

[wingster55]

Who else would have put the mask on Oliver? Diggle? Roy?  Felicity made the MOST sense out of anyone that knew his identity.

 

Himself. 

Felicity verbally called him a hero but Diggle's believed in Oliver longer. 

 

 

she inspires him to BE a hero

I've never gotten that sense before.

Edited June 25, 2014 by wingster55

[catrox14]

 

Himself.

Felicity verbally called him a hero but Diggle's believed in Oliver longer.

 

He can't very well stand in the mirror, and put on the mask and call himself a hero. Someone else has to declare you a hero as others here have pointed out.  It made perfect sense that Felicity did it. Diggle is not about to put a mask on Oliver.

IMO The "Please Save Oliver" line is not fanservice either. It was just a stupid line showing that Felicity was really worried about Oliver. Bad writing =/= fanservice in all cases.

[statsgirl]

 

Diggle is not about to put a mask on Oliver.

Crackfic!

 

I think Diggle sees his job as grounding Oliver and keeping Oliver from getting hurt too much, either emotionally or physically.

 

It's always been Felicity who pushed him not to kill and who talked to him about becoming a hero.  (I don't think she gets enough credit in Oliver's scene with Slade in the island prison).

[Velocity23]

She was also the one to call him a hero in season 1 finale when questioned by Quentin. So i think she believed in him as a hero very early on. 

[Password]

I think both Diggle and Felicity can see Oliver could be more than a vigilante and do real justice, but Felicity out and out said it. Felicity saw Oliver as a hero even though he killed people because she saw the good he did, beyond the killing.

 

The "Please save Oliver" grated on my teeth. There were some really gross things Felicity Smoak had to go through in the second half of season 2. It's so weird that they decided she needed to be "built up" in the Clock King episode so she can feel she is capable in herself. I've always seen her as capable and confident in herself, so that regression annoyed me to no end. Luckily, she did amazingly well in the final 3 episodes. But really for a while it was touch and go there for me.

Edited June 25, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[wingster55]

Why can't he put it on himself? I dislike it when other characters are seen as the inspiration or reason for a hero..they can play a part..but as the wise Jen Lindley said..it has to be an inside job. 

 

Also..wasn't Diggle the one who pushed Oliver to extend his scope beyond the list? So he deserves some credit too, and should be equal to Felicity imo. 

[Velocity23]

Have you met Oliver? This guy can be so broody and full of man-pain he would never call himself a hero or good person. And i think it had a lot to do with Tommy's reaction when he revealed himself as the vigilante. I think Oliver saw himself that way for the longest time. 

[wingster55]

No, I'm saying why couldn't Oliver put the mask on himself?

And he doesn't have to call himself a hero to act like one because of his own self. 

[statsgirl]

I think the show wanted to make it a special moment, something symbolic.

 

Basically Oliver has been going through a journey these past two seasons to become a hero.  The EPs have talked about it, SA has talked about it in interviews, and Oliver himself talked about it on the island to Slade.  It's going from The Hood in s1 to Arrow in s2 to presumably Green Arrow next season.

 

So given that they wanted to mark the move from greasepaint to mask as something significant in his journey, it would be better to have someone else put it on him and talk about becoming a hero. Of the two, Felicity is more likely to do it because 1) she's been referring to him as a hero since s1 and 2) Diggle is all stoic and not showing emotions. Getting too close to hug territory that.

[Velocity23]

That episode was full of hero connotations. So i guess it was fitting that the person who first voiced he is a hero be the one to put the mask on him. 

[Starfish35]

IMO The "Please Save Oliver" line is not fanservice either. It was just a stupid line showing that Felicity was really worried about Oliver. Bad writing =/= fanservice in all cases.

It was a stupid line. I don't know about it being fan service, but it was a really bad line.

That said, there was a lot about Three Ghosts that, candidly, did seem a little overdone as far as Felicity and Oliver went. I don't know that I would call it "fan service" exactly (because that term seems to have turned into a way to disparage something you don't like) but I remember when watching the episode it did seem like they were a little heavy handed in how they handled Felicity and her feelings for Oliver. For one thing, I know a lot of people found the "fantasy island" comment amusing, but I remember being taken back by it, because to me it came across as unusually catty for Felicity. It was a jealous woman comment, and it seemed really out of character for her, considering she knows that "it was five years where nothing good happened."

Beyond that, I remember thinking she was unusually handsy with Oliver, not inappropriately, but more than normal, and then there was the hug when he returned. All of it seemed a little much for where they supposedly were at that stage of a relationship (and honestly seems even odder now considering that they put the brakes on hard not long after this episode).

With all of that, her putting on his mask didn't really even register. I would have been more inclined to call the hug "fanservice" than the mask moment, if I was going to say that. *shrugs*. Just my thoughts on it.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Starfish35

[Password]

The hug was strange to me too. The fact that they put the brakes on Oliver and Felicity really after ep 10 made the touchy feely even stranger. I do miss the Oliver and Felicity interactions in s1 where Felicity just ogled him to her hearts content but didn't pine.

 

I've come to dislike the word "fanservice" actually because it just seems like people throw it out there when things happen that make them less than happy. Laurel shooting an arrow? That is fanservice in my opinion because just what? Felicity hugging Oliver is strange and out of place, and her clunky lines regarding him annoy me sometimes. But hopefully they sort that out because I love Miss Smoak for reals.

[Starfish35]

Oh I love Felicity. She's my favorite character on the show. But as much as she's my favorite, I haven't been thrilled with everything they've done with her always. Time of Death, for example, was my most hated episode in S2 because of how they handled her storyline.

[Velocity23]

I think they came up with more Felicity in that episode on last minute. It was suppose to be look Felicity is getting her own episode, for me that wasn't a Felicity centric episode. That bunch of episodes was before hand promoted as heavy /Laurel/Sara/family Lance episodes. I guess knowing that they gonna put Felicity in the background they decided to slip into more Felicity. But it was awfully written and planned. And Clock King was a disappointment also. 

[statsgirl]

I hated TofD too, because by the time it aired, it seemed like the Lance sisters were the only women Oliver or the show cared about.  I especially hated Oliver dismissing Felicity training and loathed the "you'll always be my girl" because it seemed so patronizing as he was sleeping with Sara at the time.  Looking back on it now, after the finale, I can see what they were trying to pull off (Felicity on her own journey, learning to be out in the field and physically a part of the team not just back in the lair).  I bet AK and MG were surprised at how that episode was received by Felicity fans.  MG tweeted "you'll always be my girl" as the line tease for the episode, probably thinking people would like having Oliver say that to Felicity. He does tend to underestimate us.

 

I wonder if they upped the touchy feely for Three Ghosts and the next episode because they were going to move away from Oliver&Felicity with the upcoming Laurel addiction and Sara arcs and they wanted to establish it before they moved on. In the same way, I'm anticipating they're going to back away from Oliver/Felicity at the start of the next season, having established it at the end of s2.  

[Password]

There didn't seem to be too much reason or rhyme to me to be honest. The Clock King just served to irritate me, and Felicity's "Please save Oliver" aggravated it further. I don't understand the sudden drop off in Felicity-Oliver interaction because it was so darn abrupt. It seemed like the show was going one way, then nope whoopsies going a different. And yes the fake out was meant to seem believable but it just made me go "aah whaaat?" Perhaps that was the reaction I was meant to give. But it wasn't just because of the fake out but because of the whole Felicity "arc".

[Orion]

I almost quit the show after Time of Death. Everything about that episode made me angry and even after forcing myself to rewatch it knowing where everything was going it still feels like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. From the scars conversation, to Oliver's "what are you wearing," to Felicity borrowing the jacket and having Sara call her on it in front of every, to Oliver not noticing that something was bothering Felicity, and finishing it off with "You'll always be my girl."

 

That whole block of episodes after Sara and Oliver got together really felt like the writers realized that A. Felicity and Oliver were getting away from them and starting to move faster than the scripts intended and B. TPTB last minute came up with the idea of Oliver and Sara getting together and they had to full stop all the other storylines to make that happen.

 

My one hope with Felicity is that they got so much backlash from how they treated her during the Lance block of episodes and the fact that they had to start throwing out Felicity/Olicity teases to get the social media fan accounts talking (because when the publicity focused on Laurel or Lance issues the buzz online instantly died down/turned hostile) made the EPs realize that, yes the fans like Arrow but the Felicity fans will not watch a show that uses her to prop of other characters or scenery in the background. But that's probably wishful thinking.

[Password]

One thing that made me really go "whaa?" was when Oliver and Laurel broke into that place to steal a file, and Felicity blacked out the cameras, only to be thwarted by a security guard. My word that was out of control. Genius??

[statsgirl]

 

I almost quit the show after Time of Death. Everything about that episode made me angry and even after forcing myself to rewatch it knowing where everything was going it still feels like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. From the scars conversation, to Oliver's "what are you wearing," to Felicity borrowing the jacket and having Sara call her on it in front of every, to Oliver not noticing that something was bothering Felicity, and finishing it off with "You'll always be my girl."

 

It's funny because I suspect that the EPs thought Time of Death would be a wonderful Felicity episode. That's how it was promoted, that Felicity gets a chance to shine and grow.  But so many people who like Felicity hate it

 

It also emphasizes Oliver's worst qualities, from how he treated Felicity (basically putting her in a box and ignoring her) to going to the Lance family dinner. Even the big hallway scene (Emmy worthy!) when Oliver finally gave up on Laurel fell flat because for the first time, I was on Laurel's side.  And the whole "I have to do this because my sister is sick" plot fell into a black hole, making Felicity, who was all about looking at people's reasons in s1 and giving them another chance, a hypocrite.

 

This show is really terrible at plotting over a group of episodes. I wish someone would a huge whiteboard to the writers' room and plot for them every on-going storyline (A: main story; B: secondary story; C:Oliver's growth curve; D: someone else's growth curve; etc) before they send the stories out to be written so that they don't lose the thread of what they're doing because s2 was just a mess in terms of that.  It's like they can only write 2 plots at at time and everything else had to come to a dead stop

 

 

My one hope with Felicity is that they got so much backlash from how they treated her during the Lance block of episodes and the fact that they had to start throwing out Felicity/Olicity teases to get the social media fan accounts talking (because when the publicity focused on Laurel or Lance issues the buzz online instantly died down/turned hostile) made the EPs realize that, yes the fans like Arrow but the Felicity fans will not watch a show that uses her to prop of other characters or scenery in the background. 

My wishful thinking too, although they have been spending a lot of media time on Oliver/Felicity since the finale, and hopefully they've got the hint.  

[Happy Harpy]

I almost quit the show after Time of Death. Everything about that episode made me angry

I call this episode "The one with the Pod People" since I barely recognized most of the characters (not only Felicity, but also Oliver as you pointed, and Sara, too). I didn't even recognized Arrow, the show. It's for me the worst episode of the two whole seasons (probably: I refused and still refuse to watch the BoP one.)

And the thing that makes me most angry about ToD is its label of "Felicity-centric" episode.  It was NOT. Felicity was an afterthought and a prop. It was a Sister Swapping-centric episode.

 

I didn't have a problem with the Oliver/Felicity hug in that context, or with the mask. For the former, Oliver and Felicity already had touchy-feely interactions like this in State vs Queen, for example; as for the latter, aside from the symbolic as it was well said upthread, it was also a gift from Barry so it kind of felt natural to me that Felicity was the "intermediary".

In other circumstances, by the way, she's imo the intermediary inside Team Arrow, when it comes to gestures of affection. I had the feeling, for example, that when she kissed Diggle on the cheek before he infiltrated the goulag, she was also expressing Oliver's feelings. That's  also why I don't see Diggle placing the mask on Oliver's face; it has nothing to do with his importance in Oliver's life or in his journey as a hero, it's just that they don't have imo this kind of physical rapport.

 

I had a problem with "Please save Oliver", though. Because it wasn't Felicity. It didn't fit the character I had seen so far and that I saw afterwards, it was a ready-made cliché. So it couldn't please her fans, at least it didn't please this one. Therefore, I can't see it as fanservice.

[Morrigan2575]

It's funny because I suspect that the EPs thought Time of Death would be a wonderful Felicity episode. That's how it was promoted, that Felicity gets a chance to shine and grow.  But so many people who like Felicity hate it

 

Not to get too far off topic but the EPs actually didn't promote ToD as a Felicity episode until after 213 aired and they appeared to be doing damage control.  Before that anything and everything you heard about 214 was about the Lance family (the most Brothers and Sisters episode they've ever done) or talking about Villains O'Rama and how they had 5 straight episodes of DC Villains!

 

I think calling ToD a Felicity centric episode was Spin / Damage Control because of the freak out over the Oliver/Sara hook up which pissed a lot of people off (not just Olicity shippers). Sara fans were pissed, Laurel and Lauriver fans were pissed, non shippers were pissed, etc  

Edited June 25, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[BkWurm1]

to Felicity borrowing the jacket and having Sara call her on it

 

I'm fairly sure that Felicity didn't borrow Sara's jacket but had found a similar looking one.  (Which she gets a bullet hole in so we never see it again) 

 

Over all I really don't have a big problem with Time of Death.  I think the Oliver and Felicity disconnect seemed in keeping with him suddenly being with Sara and I think Felicity's actions fit with her feeling like she was not living up to her expectations in the team.  I do think everyone acted a little "off" but then people do sometimes act off when there is a period of transition and adjustment.  Diggle is there thinking Feliicty is bummed that Oliver and Sara hooked up and Felicity is desperate for that to be the farthest from the truth so she makes some rash choices and Oliver is so off his game when it comes to Felicity it almost seems like he's made deliberate choices to back away from her (or that she'd been giving him the strictly business cold shoulder so he no longer knew how to act around her). 

 

Sara did come off a tad condescending but never in a malicious way, just as someone so very jaded might feel next to a squeaky clean unscarred Felicity.  I never found the "You'll always be my girl" comment a problem once I saw the context or at least I didn't find it condescending on Oliver's part since he was answering Felicity's "your girl".  My issues were that I found it to be too touchy feely for a guy who had just started up with Sara.  It was IMO too emotionally intimate, more so than anything we ever saw with him and Sara.  Felicity being all loopy is what let him say it, but the genuine feelings of partnership and respect and connection felt real to me. 

 

Plus my sympathy for Laurel never made it past the dining room table. The minute she turned on Quentin and mocked his feelings I was ready to support anyone ripping into Laurel. 

 

I did hate Laurel's apology at the end.  What a mess. 

[tv echo]

Regarding the mask scene - to me, it's like the classic scene in medieval or medieval fantasy movies (like LOTR) when the knight or king prepares for battle and his squire or second is the one to strap on his body armor and gauntlets.

[quarks]

The girl or the mentor putting on the mask is also a pretty classic comic book bit, going all the way back to the 1930s, partly inspired by the various Scarlet Pimpernel sequels where Marguerite helps Percy with the costume/mask.  

 

I thought in this scene it worked as a nod to that history, as part of the hero/knighting scene, as another romantic beat for Oliver/Felicity, and, on a character note, as another step on Oliver's hero journey - the reassurance that he now looks like a hero. Now he just has to act like one.  It also was a nice nod to the idea, picked up in the next episode, that Oliver may have started this journey alone, but he now has a team.

Edited June 26, 2014 by quarks

[Danny Franks]

Why can't he put it on himself? I dislike it when other characters are seen as the inspiration or reason for a hero..they can play a part..but as the wise Jen Lindley said..it has to be an inside job. 

 

Also..wasn't Diggle the one who pushed Oliver to extend his scope beyond the list? So he deserves some credit too, and should be equal to Felicity imo. 

 

I'm sure he could have put it on himself. Like he presumably dresses himself in his Arrow gear and used to do his own makeup. But I imagine that Felicity wanted to put the mask on him. Especially considering she stepped forward and asked to be handed the mask, to put it on him. She's seen him as a hero, as others have mentioned, for longer than most people. She believes in him, even when he doesn't believe in himself (sounds clichéd as hell, but it's true), and she's also kinda sorta in love with him a little bit. She wanted to be the one to put that mask on him and officially brand him a Hero. I have no problem with that. 

 

Why did Oliver let her? Because he values all the reasons I mentioned, and because a key component of his journey in this second season has been his desire to have other people see him as a hero. He didn't want to be the Hood, he didn't want to be Oliver Queen, oblivious CEO. He wanted people to like and admire and respect him. And Felicity does. That's important to him even without taking his possible feelings for her into account.

 

And then there's the also mentioned image of the hero being girded for battle. Donning his armour (which is exactly what that mask is), taking on his coat of arms. Superhero, medieval (or fantasy) knight. The image fits who Oliver wants to be.

 

I almost quit the show after Time of Death. Everything about that episode made me angry and even after forcing myself to rewatch it knowing where everything was going it still feels like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. From the scars conversation, to Oliver's "what are you wearing," to Felicity borrowing the jacket and having Sara call her on it in front of every, to Oliver not noticing that something was bothering Felicity, and finishing it off with "You'll always be my girl."

 

 

 

The only part of that that bothered me was "what are you wearing", because SA really douched up the delivery for some reason. He sounded unbelievably condescending and disapproving, when all she was doing was wearing workout gear. But I could fanwank that and say, he was a little uncomfortable with how hot she looked in it, and so lashed out a little. Not admirable, but that's what I came up with.

 

The rest of it was fine. Oliver, Diggle and Sara comparing scars was fun, and a bit of a Jaws riff (which also makes it a Lethal Weapon 3 and Chasing Amy riff), and believable for those characters. They were amped up on adrenaline, having fun sparring and beating each other up, and just started chatting shit about their war wounds. I buy that. Felicity as the forgotten observer, feeling excluded? It was a little harsh, but again not unrealistic, because she can't get involved in that conversation. I've said it before, but I really, really don't mind her being insecure sometimes. If she didn't have moments of weakness then she really might be a Mary Sue. Her just going around being all awesome, all the time, dropping zingers and outsmarting everyone she comes across? No thanks. Let me see her as human and as prone to pettiness as anyone else.

 

And that leads into the last scene, with "you'll always be my girl". When I read that Oliver would say that, I really hoped it wouldn't be to Felicity, because it would surely come off as just awful. But I think they managed it okay. She was doped up, babbling (which we know Oliver loves), and she said it first. Once she clarified how she meant it, I thought it was okay for Oliver to reassure her, because what he was saying was true. The touching was a little out of place, but perhaps not under the circumstances of her being doped up and feeling exposed. It ended up being a nice scene (even with another questionable SA choice, when he almost ran away in the background).

[Morrigan2575]

I think the bigger question is how do these scenes/episodes fit into the season finale?  What's the theme and how does it play out over the season?  in 201 Felicity is the one to say "maybe there's another way" and Oliver confirms that her comment about finding another way is what led him to believe he could rescue Thea without killing her kidnappers.  In S2 the theme is Oliver wanting to be a hero not a killer.  He doesn't want to be the Hood anymore, he wants to honor Tommy's memory and be something more.  

 

The mid-season break (Three Ghosts) was taking the season to the next level, now we have Oliver being donned/knighted the hero that he wants to be, the first true taste of his new resolution to "find another way".  It was fitting that the person who gave him the confidence and resources to be The Arrow (and believed that he could do it) be the one to "knight" him with his new hero costume.

 

This all leads up to the finale, where once again, people are telling him, you're a killer go kill and Felicity is the one sitting there going, "find another way"..

 

I think you have to look at these scenes/episodes as sort of a trilogy or beginning/middle/end of a single story/book.  If you take 201, 209 and 223 as just one long story, I don't see how you can call it fan pandering or out of place.  It was exactly in place for the theme of the season.

[Orion]

 

 

The rest of it was fine. Oliver, Diggle and Sara comparing scars was fun, and a bit of a Jaws riff (which also makes it a Lethal Weapon 3 and Chasing Amy riff), and believable for those characters. They were amped up on adrenaline, having fun sparring and beating each other up, and just started chatting shit about their war wounds. I buy that. Felicity as the forgotten observer, feeling excluded? It was a little harsh, but again not unrealistic, because she can't get involved in that conversation. I've said it before, but I really, really don't mind her being insecure sometimes. If she didn't have moments of weakness then she really might be a Mary Sue. Her just going around being all awesome, all the time, dropping zingers and outsmarting everyone she comes across? No thanks. Let me see her as human and as prone to pettiness as anyone else.

 

 

Oh, I have no problem with Felicity being insecure at times.  Everyone, is insecure at times during the lives, even Oliver has moments of self doubt. In fact the only part of Time of Death I enjoyed was her conversation with Diggle where she felt her skills were not good enough - that she wasn't pulling her weight as a partner on Team Arrow.  The scars conversation could have been handled exactly the way it happened and ended on a close up of Felicity face looking insecure and left out. That would have accomplished the point and there would have been no need for the whole wisdom tooth part. That was part of the scene that was OOC for her. She's never felt the need to compare her life experiences with Diggle or Oliver in the past. By writing her comparing her tooth surgery to their knife, gun, mortar, and sword scars made her look immature. That's what bothered me about the whole episode.  She took the jacket without asking, she put herself in a dangerous position without backup to prove herself and the face cuddle you will always be my girl; it was immature. Felicity has always been shown to be a thoughtful, intelligent and cautious woman (example would be the "can I trust you scene." She tells Oliver that she has been debating about telling him about the notebook for weeks and asks if she can trust him. When Oliver slips into his pre-island shallow persona she immediately pulls back until he becomes serious.)  but in Time of Death she was none of those things.

 

As far as Oliver not realizing that something was bothering Felicity and having to have Diggle clue him in, that has to do with a larger problem with the second half of S2 imo. Once Slade appeared on screen Oliver pretty much forgot that Diggle and Felicity existed as far as their safety goes. We were told that Oliver was having Roy stick close to Thea, that the security at Queen Manor was increased and that Sara was protecting Laurel, we also had Oliver pushing Sara away to try to keep her safe. But the only one thinking about Felicity's safety was Diggle and he took it upon himself to sit in his car outside of her house. Looking back now I can excuse that with Slade telling Oliver exactly who he was going to go after as the Amazo sank (Thea, Laurel and Moira). The problem with that is that A. Oliver is counting on Slade not changing and his plans and B. If Oliver remembered that conversation enough to only protect those 3 people why didn't he make sure they were safe and send them out of the city. There was a disregard for Diggle and Felicity and it started in this episode and I agree with @statsgirl that this episode really did emphasize some of Oliver's worst characteristics.

 

I understand coming up with fan wank and head canon, trust me I do it to, but that's one of the real problems Arrow has in general. I shouldn't have to read interviews and tweets, I shouldn't have to fanwank or develop head canon or read the comics (Hi, Katie Cassidy). If I have to go to outside sources to explain their writing choices they aren't telling their story on screen.

 

@Happy Harpy I love how you described this episode it really was like evasion of the "Pod People".

 

ETA because I just saw @BkWurm1 comment on the jacket. I really think it was Sara's jacket. IIRC Sara isn't wearing her jacket and Sara says, "Nice jacket," Felicity answers back "What, I was cold." That didn't play to me as I had this jacket in the foundry and put it on as I left and we've never seen Felicity wear anything like that before, but that could just be me. The bullet hole I explain away like the bullet hole that Oliver should have in his hood from when Moira shot him but there is no new seam on his hood after that.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Orion

[Password]

I liked what Felicity looked like in the leather jacket and it never occurred to me that she was wearing it because of Sara, or that it was indeed Sara's. I've seen people say Sara was condescending in the episode but the only real thing that irked me was the "you were really brave" comment. Oh jeez. Followed by the Felicity-almost-head-pat I was done with that whole business.

 

There's nothing wrong with insecurities, unless they seriously hamper the way you live. But that episode was jarring. It seemed like Felicity was being indulged like a child. Talk about friend-zoned that was more like little sister-zoned. And what was up with Oliver's attitude to Felicity training? Did he never see it before? No he did. It was like dude what the hell.

 

I feel like Oliver tends to lose all reason and rhyme when it comes to the Lance sisters so him basically ignoring Felicity's safety was totes normal

Edited June 26, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[calliope1975]

This is a small thing to comment on, but I don't think it was Sara's jacket. Sara was wearing her jacket in the scene where she's speaking with Felicity. I think Felicity just went out and found a jacket like Sara's and didn't straight up steal one from the foundry. I do agree that there was a lot of OOC beats happening in ToD, though. I'm still irritated at Oliver's "What are you wearing?" line.

[Velocity23]

I would presume Felicity owns some leather jackets

 

[statsgirl]

I remember lots of arguments that Felicity either took Sara's jacket or got one just like her so she could be like Sara.  I think that was intentional, with Sara commenting on Felicity wearing a leather jacket, and it really bugged me because Felicity is just fine as her own person. I hated that she felt that she had to be like Sara (in leather, getting shot) before she felt validated.

 

 

Talk about friend-zoned that was more like little sister-zoned. And what was up with Oliver's attitude to Felicity training? Did he never see it before? No he did. It was like dude what the hell.

You're right, it was 'little sister-zoned'.  Not even Diggle has done it to that extent. No wonder Felicity was so desperate to prove herself.

 

Not only was Oliver all huffy about Felicity training,  when he dragged her back to her computer and she said that it was taking so long because the Clockmaker was very good at covering his tracks, Oliver said "Lucky for us, you're very good at uncovering tracks", basically telling her to stop trying to train and expand her abilities and just do the computer stuff.  Little sister-zoned and put in a box.   Yep, it's Oliver's fault.  Not all of it, but in that episode he really contributed to making Felicity feel inadequate.

 

Oliver often has trouble looking at the big picture; that's why he needs Diggle and Felicity.

 

In the WB interview, EBR said that of course Diggle and Oliver would have been training Felicity, which leaves me wondering if there's an AU show I'm not seeing..  (She also said that the molars scene was her favorite from this season, which makes me sad.)

Edited June 26, 2014 by statsgirl

[calliope1975]

(She also said that the molars scene was her favorite from this season, which makes me sad.)

 

Well, to be fair, remember what she had to look at in that scene. If I had scantily clad SA, DR, and CL around, it might be my favorite scene, too. :)

[Password]

In the WB interview, EBR said that of course Diggle and Oliver would have been training Felicity, which leaves me wondering if there's an AU show I'm not seeing..  (She also said that the molars scene was her favorite from this season, which makes me sad.)

 

Hahaha that entire business annoyed so many fans but it's her favourite scene. That's ironic. EBR said the part about Felicity being trained in a very uncertain way though. It was more like "I think surely they would be training her". It seems plausible but then Oliver acts like he's never seen her in workout clothes so it's weird.

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah she seemed to be theorizing based on the characters, saying Oliver and Diggle wouldn't have let Felicity not train/take self defense lessons even if we've never seen it on the show.

 

Of course there's also the possibility/probability that they did film a Diggle/Felicity training scene that got cut.  David Ramsey gave an interview around filming 2.18 or 2.19 that talked about Oliver training Roy and Diggle training Felicity.  And someone tweeted AK saying they were re-watching 1.16 and asked when we'd see another Diggle/Felicity training scene and AK responded "coming soon" or "soon" or "stay tuned". (sorry don't remember the exact Q&A)

 

So I think she's probably talking/thinking of something that was either filmed or in the script even if it was later cut.

 

I found it odd that she would say the Molar scene but she also talked about trying to think of a scene where they were all together in the lair.  So I'm wondering if EBR's answer wasn't so much Felicity related as BTS related (having fun all being on set together)?

[statsgirl]

The scene in ToD was the impetus for me to ask the question but if there was a scene in a later episode that was cut, it would explain her looking confused at the question.

 

If it was cut, another reason to rail against the bad plotting of the season where Felicity and Diggle got pushed aside.

Edited June 26, 2014 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

The scars conversation could have been handled exactly the way it happened and ended on a close up of Felicity face looking insecure and left out. That would have accomplished the point and there would have been no need for the whole wisdom tooth part. That was part of the scene that was OOC for her. She's never felt the need to compare her life experiences with Diggle or Oliver in the past. By writing her comparing her tooth surgery to their knife, gun, mortar, and sword scars made her look immature

 

I liked this scene probably because I just know if I'd been in that exact circumstance my babbling mouth would have tried to join in and bring up lame scars as well.  I don't think she looked immature so much as so very unworldly and you could just see her hearing what she was saying and yet unable to stop herself from still saying it.  It was painfully realistic. 

This is a small thing to comment on, but I don't think it was Sara's jacket. Sara was wearing her jacket in the scene where she's speaking with Felicity. I think Felicity just went out and found a jacket like Sara's and didn't straight up steal one from the foundry

 

Yep, just double checked and both Felicity and Sara are wearing their leather jackets in the same scene.  Given that EVERYBODY showed up at the bank wearing leather (Diggle, Sara and Oliver)  I took it less that she was trying to imitate Sara than she was dressing like the team did when it went out into the field. 

[Ceylon5]

Because of all this discussion about episode 2x14, I was rewatching the relevant scenes and noticed something I hadn't noticed before.  While Oliver is persuading Sara to come to her "Back from the Dead" party, Diggle in the background is busy showing Felicity some moves with the stick he was fighting with earlier.  You only see it for a second as Oliver kisses Sara and she turns back to look at Felicity, who is watching them and not paying attention to what Diggle is trying to teach her.  So it's my impression that Diggle has all along been training Felicity in self-defence (as we saw him do in an episode in Season 1).  We've never seen Oliver doing it, though, so maybe it's just something she does with Diggle?

 

And I came out of many years of internet lurkdom just to say that!  Glad it was something really important!

[Password]

Mph that PDA in the foundry set my teeth on edge too. Welcome @Ceylon5

[tv echo]

I don't think the molar scene really was EBR's fave scene.  Watching the WB interview, I don't think she was serious.  I think she had to come up with an answer fairly quickly and she pulled that scene out of the air and was also trying to be funny.

[dtissagirl]

I don't think the molar scene really was EBR's fave scene.  Watching the WB interview, I don't think she was serious.  I think she had to come up with an answer fairly quickly and she pulled that scene out of the air and was also trying to be funny.

Agreed. It also sounded to me like she just picked a scene she had lots of fun filming, I don't think she meant it that she thought that was Felicity's most defining moment, or anything like that. Favorite scene to film =/= favorite character moment.

[wonderwall]

This may be incredibly stupid, but I actually wouldn't mind seeing Felicity go through a larger crucible this season. While my bets are on her crucible concerning her father, I wouldn't mind seeing her being put in an impossible position and having to kill someone (which sort of mirrors what Oliver did for her in season 2). Why I wouldn't mind seeing this is because since we didn't see Laurel get affected by it, I'd like to see someone, most probably the most innocent person in the show, be affected by it. It would be interesting to explore Felicity's darkness a bit because we all know everyone has some. I don't need the writers to handle it in an OTT fashion, but I'd like to see some subtle changes in Felicity's behavior that her partners notice. This could be a great opportunity for growth for her as she comes to terms with what she did. 

 

And while I'm writing this, I figure, no I don't want Felicity to kill someone. I rather like the fact that she's untainted in that sense. Regardless, I still want her to go through a crucible. I want to see more of her, learn how she would react and how she'd grow. I just want more Felicity :p

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note: A number of posts that were off topic have been moved to the Relationships thread.

Friendly reminder: Character threads are for discussing, character development/strengths/weaknesses or their appearance/style etc. Posts regarding relationships with other characters belong in the Relationships thread.

 

Thank you.

[Ceylon5]

Do we have any idea what happened to Felicity's day job at QC after Oliver was booted out as CEO?  Clearly her EA position evaporated the moment he stopped working there, and the new CEO wasn't a fan of hers, so would she have even been able to get her old job in the IT department back?  Given that Oliver is also suddenly inexplicably poor, he won't be able to pay her (as well as Diggle) out of his own pocket, which means that she's suddenly living on nothing (though I suppose they'd have to pay her severance if they did retrench her).  I realise there was a lot going on in the last 5 episodes of the season and that they probably happened over a relatively short period of time, but surely this is a big enough issue that Felicity must have been stressing about it and it should have been mentioned at least in passing (did I miss it?).  She talks in the finale about Oliver getting a job, but doesn't refer to her own job situation. This is now bothering me.

 

Perhaps we're just supposed to assume that she was welcomed back to the IT department with open arms (possibly without Isabel's knowledge)?  After all, she was clearly one of their most valued employees - in the first season when both the CEO (Walter) and his stepson (Oliver) asked for help from the IT department, Felicity was the person her superiors chose in both instances, so they must have had a high regard for her abilities.

 

Anyhow, I think it's time Felicity got out from under Oliver's shadow (the man has taken over her whole life!) and started her own IT company. She needs some autonomy in at least one area of her life and I think it'd be a nice change for her to be her own boss.  

 

ETA: Ha, then she can make Oliver HER executive assistant, since he apparently needs an excuse to be with her 24/7 as "cover".  He needs a job, after all, and who else would be kind enough to hire someone whose skills translate so poorly into the job market?  I'm sure he could manage to fetch her coffee, at the very least.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Ceylon5

[Luckylyn]

 

Anyhow, I think it's time Felicity got out from under Oliver's shadow (the man has taken over her whole life!) and started her own IT company. She needs some autonomy in at least one area of her life and I think it'd be a nice change for her to be her own boss.  

 

ETA: Ha, then she can make Oliver HER executive assistant, since he apparently needs an excuse to be with her 24/7 as "cover".  He needs a job, after all, and who else would be kind enough to hire someone whose skills translate so poorly into the job market?  I'm sure he could manage to fetch her coffee, at the very least.

 

I'm in love with this idea.  Felicity at boss would be so much fun.