Thea Queen: Speedy

[Zalyn]

It seems that something about Thea's character is resonating very negatively with you, as you seem very passionate about this topic. I shared some real perspective regarding veterans to give some accuracy, but I shall excuse myself for the rest because it feels like a very negative turn right now.

[slayer2]

I just don't like the character for the reasons I expressed, no more no less and while I appreciate what you shared it doesn't change my opinion of how a sister should behave for the reasons I stated. There is a lot of passion about characters on this show not just from me :)

Edited May 23, 2014 by slayer2

[bluebonnet]

I think there is room for negative critique of Thea's character (well, any character really).  I'm not so sure that gendered slurs need to be brought into the critique and analysis as it needlessly makes the discussion hostile.  

 

I think the returning vet analogy is apt as we now have more of an understanding of what the emotions and trauma vets will return with.  Still, the trauma of the family is also valid and relevant and something that has only been really focused on in the last couple of years.  The biggest difference here is that Oliver isn't returning as a vet so the mental preparations his family can make won't be the same.  He is returning as someone who had been presumed dead due to being shipwrecked and castawayed.  The family has little reason to know or understand that his physical scars were due to being on a highly populated 'deserted' island.  Deserted usually means empty of people.  They don't understand and they can't understand.

 

I wrote upthread that I also found Thea highly irritating, though irritating in a good way.  She's meant to be that way.  She was a young kid when Oliver and Robert disappeared and were presumed dead and her growth was stunted in many ways.  It's acknowledged that Moira wasn't an active parent and that rules and boundaries didn't exist for Thea.  I think they did very well with showing the trauma the family experiences when a wounded warrior returns.  Obviously, no one was aware that Oliver was literally a wounded warrior, only that he was a wounded shipwreck survivor.  Still, the frustration and anger the family often goes through is very real and can be very volatile.  No one at any age really cares for their lives to be so disrupted.  Not understanding and feeling helpless to aid in recovery and reconnect with the returnee can and very often does lead to lashing out. The writers gave Thea a pretty reasonable and accurate representation of the trauma the family experiences and how they cope with that trauma, though obviously a bit exaggerated in some parts because this is a comic book show, after all.  

 

We get more of an idea of how stunted and sheltered Thea was when Laurel mentors her.  She starts to learn more about empathy and the validity of other people's trauma.  But she also does learn that her own trauma is still valid and doesn't deserve to be ignored just because it's not visible.  This is just a tv show so these experiences of these characters don't matter in the grand scheme of things, not beyond our own obsessive zeal for talking about it.  In real life, what Thea feels and how she reacts happens every day and acknowledging and validating it has gone a long way to making the transition more bearable for returning vets and their families.  

 

ETA: Zalyn, fistbump to a fellow Naval vet!

Edited May 23, 2014 by SystemRemote

[slayer2]

Does she get mentored by Laurel? That's good, I'm not on that episode yet so I'm just seeing bratty and feeling really upset on behalf of Oliver for the way everyone has basically told him to go back where he came from. With respect to gendered insults I use bitch dually for guys and girls so no one's immune. I'm also a migrant from TWoP so perhaps bitterness is more commonly expressed there. I'm happy to hear that Thea learns sympathy as time progresses and if it's with Laurel then such the better.

[Carrie Ann]

And also, most of us are talking about the Thea we know from two full seasons (46 episodes), while slayer2, you're talking about one you know from the end of S2 and however many episodes you're through at the beginning of S1. You may never change your opinion of her, especially given the order of your viewing of the series (which sort of highlights Thea at her most challenging), who knows? But my feelings about her did change toward the end of S1, and especially the beginning of S2. Oliver always had my full sympathy, even as I found it frustrating that he wouldn't open up to anyone about what happened to him, and he continued to wear the pre-island Ollie facade. I think that's part of Thea's frustration with him. On the outside, he's pretending that he's still the same dudebro he was five years ago, but she can tell that something is wrong. So she has to deal with this fake Oliver, when she wants the real thing.

 

She's actually only 15 (I think?) when the series starts, or maybe just turned 16, so her reactions are going to be immature. She is a very immature character, but that's what character growth is for. And she does exhibit that. It's can be annoying to watch sometimes, and I don't always like her choices, but I don't see any reason to write off a teenage character as though she has no capacity to change and grow. She's not a fully-formed person yet. The fact that she did grow up in the transition between seasons is what makes her pulling away from Moira and Oliver at the end of S2 more heart-wrenching. She had really grown up, she had good relationships with her family and Roy, and then their keeping secrets from her ruined her trust in them again.

[slayer2]

I think the episodes I just watched counted her as 17. I understand that a lot if people like her, but from what I've seen I just don't. I hope that she grows on me as you said she did on you otherwise it's going to be irritating to watch throughout the show.

Dawn from Buffy was also a teenager and ruined season 5 and 6 or Buffy for me (I had to stop watching). She improved by Season 7 but I only returned then because the series was ending. I know Willa Holland from GG when her character screwed over Jenny, good actress and I understand she's a favourite among many but I'm not feeling it which is fine because mileage varies and I'm not required to like her.

Edited May 23, 2014 by slayer2

[Carrie Ann]

I totally hated Dawn, too, so I can understand your feelings on that one. But I came around on her in S7 a bit--probably because I didn't have enough hate in my heart to cover all the Potentials and Dawn. :)

[slayer2]

I totally hated Dawn, too, so I can understand your feelings on that one. But I came around on her in S7 a bit--probably because I didn't have enough hate in my heart to cover all the Potentials and Dawn. :)

Ha! Thanks, hopefully Thea will improve right along with season 7 Dawn.

[statsgirl]

Starling City is falling apart, did she ever think to climb out of her castle and volunteer her services to people who ACTUALLY need sympathy instead of whining and blaming everyone around her? What about the fact that anybody who lost someone would give anything to have them back her wildest dream came true and because it's not what she wanted she's busy telling him he shouldn't have bothered.

She's 17 yrs old not 12 and I reckon even a 12year old would be more grateful.

 

After the terrible twos and threes, adolescence is possibly the most selfish time in a person's life, probably for good evolutionary reasons (time to leave the tribe and diversify the gene pool by joining another?).    There are kids who reach other to help other, the Kielburger brothers for example) but most of the kids who do are set the example by their parents.  I can't see either Robert or Moira Queen, much less Oliver, setting Thea on the path to altruism or reaching out to the poor of Starling City.

 

At the Dallas Comic Con, Manu Bennett talked about the effect on his life of losing both his mother and brother at 15   He shut down from the trauma and had to drop out of school because he couldn't learn anything.

 

Thea would have been about 13 when the Queen's Gambit went down, and after that Moira probably spoiled her silly out of grief.  She was pretty annoying at the start of s1, but by the end, she's out trying to save people with Roy.

[KirkB]

Dawn's first episode was designed to make her as annoying as possible, to underscore the fact that you protect your family no matter how much they get on your nerves. The problem is Whedon did his job too well. Dawn annoyed the crap out of me and I never got over it. But after the fifth season, with the Key stuff over there wasn't anything else for Dawn to do so she kind of faded into the background, popping up now and again to bug me.

 

Thea never bothered me at all. She was a fairly average teenager, and given her upbringing it's a wonder she turned out as well as she did.

[catrox14]

I think Thea gets a really bad rap.  Teenage angst doesn't care how much money it has or how much privilege.  It's all part of being a teenager at some point.  Not to mention she had to cope with losing her father and her brother. Despite Thea's issues and typically annoying teenagitude, she IMO seemed to always have a decent side and kindness despite being bratty occassionally which I assume comes from Moira's side.

Edited May 25, 2014 by catrox14

[slayer2]

I don't think her rep is so bad (although I think it should be) people seem to like her but I don't. I just know if she were raised in a Caribbean household she wouldn't make it past her 18th birthday saying things like "Gee Mom, wish you were dead." There's selfish to me and then there's cruelly selfish, she says the most horrible shit to people she purports to care about and she apologizes down the road "Oh sorry, I was a bitch." but then says something even worse the next time. I said a lot of things to my mother as a teenager but I never told her or anyone that I wished they were dead. She is truly awful.

Edited May 25, 2014 by slayer2

[tv echo]

I thought Thea was 12 when Oliver left and 17 when he returned.  Since a year has passed, that means Thea is now 18 - an adult who's old enough to vote, sign contracts and serve in the military.  

 

I liked Thea in the beginning but now I can't stand her.  I find her a whiny, self-absorbed, spoiled brat, who hasn't earned anything.  This is not the fault of the actress, Willa Holland, who is quite good.  It's another example of bad writing.  On the one hand, they want Thea to be mature and responsible enough to run a night club, Verdant, successfully even though she's a teen.  But on the other hand, they want Thea to be an immature teen who can't or won't understand the tough choices made by her family and, in a tantrum, refuses to sign the documents necessary to keep her family afloat.  She bankrupts her family and then waltzes away with her rich daddy, never having to worry about getting a job or paying the bills.

 

 

[slayer2]

This is it exactly and then she's never held accountable and sails away feeling justified and vindicated as if it's all okay because they lied to her and it's not as if she holds them innocent until proven guilty.

She crucified her mother over the Malcolm Merlyn affair she was convinced they were having when meeting up about something entirely different and wouldn't listen to reason for Moira or Oliver. She risked the lives of people around her by getting super high and driving around Starling City like some kind of asshole, then when everybody was doing their level best to ensure she didn't go to prison or juvy (where she belonged for such an offense) she basically told everyone to go screw themselves. Finally when Laurel goes out of her way to cut a deal for her she shows up and gets right to complaining about having to file things and earn her keep in the office.

Honestly, anyone I know who had done something so damn stupid would simply be grateful for all the help, that so many people cared about them to pull them out of the clutches of jail that they wouldn't dream of complaining about it.

Thea needs a Slade Wilson or a Yao Fe (?) badly. Oliver complained for half a second before shit got real and that's just what this chic needs, the solipsism is mind-blowing, MIND-BLOWING. Even Dawn and Blair Waldorf had their moments, I am stunned. Never have I seen a character, surrounded by so many things meant to build character, written like such a narcissist, with no redeemable qualities. I've yet to see one moment that shows me a truly likeable person. Unlike her brother whom was supposed to be a brat but stood up under torture and still went back to try and save his (barely new) friend. Where are these qualities in Thea? Where is the rootable character? Even Moira whom one might call an out and out villain has inspired concern and empathy from me, why should Thea be any different? Perhaps the same writer(s) who sabotaged Laurel is the one writing for Thea. *shaking my head.

Edited May 25, 2014 by slayer2

[catrox14]

I don't really see where Thea hasn't been held accountable at all and she does seem to learn from her mistakes for the most part. 

 

When she wrecked her car, she was arrested, was going to be sentenced to hard time simply because she was a little rich girl. Eventually Oliver went to Quentin to help get her sentenced reduced but she still ended up doing community service which is how she ended up at CNRI and became more friendly with Laurel(who BTW did not get arrested for DUI because her Dad is a cop and also blackmailed people twice to get what she wants).

 

Thea made the mistake of using drugs and partying a lot as a terrible and unhealthy coping mechanism after her father and brother were presumed lost at sea and having a mother that was not coping well either. Ollie coming back despite being a good thing was another blow to Thea's life because he was not the brother she'd always known. But she has started to turn all of that around and make something good of it by running Verdant. She met Roy and they both became better people by helping strangers and keeping their noses clean.  Thea even admitted and basically apologized to Ollie for being a "bitch" (used by the show not me).

 

Now she finds out that her mother and brother were lying to her about being the spawn of the mass murder Malcolm Merlyn.   She might be 19 but that's got to be a pretty triggering thing to deal with and it set her back a bit...that and finding out Roy has been lying to her as well. 

 

Thea despite her privileged life, was still only a teenager and despite her privilege she is only human and will make mistakes but she was pre Malcolm trying to be better. I think she is a great character and it's nice to see Willa get more to do. 

 

ETA: Yes Thea refused the deal at first because she thought Moira was cheating on Walter, but Ollie convinced her that it was Robert that was doing the cheating.  So Thea accepted the deal. And yes she complained about the work but again she was a teenager figuring shit out.

Edited May 25, 2014 by catrox14

[slayer2]

I had to stop reading your post because you're kinda spoiling me (I'm only on episode 13) ;) From what I've seen, it's doesn't excuse her behaviour. Losing people you love doesn't give you the right to endanger others and be an overall asshole. Thea's tired refrain of losing her father is wearing thin, it's time for her to grow up and realize she's not the only person in the world and no one owes her anything, people have it worse everyday.

Edited May 25, 2014 by slayer2

[statsgirl]

I thought it was interesting in s1 that Thea rebelled and got into trouble because she thought her mother was unfaithful. It was really her father and Oliver thought Thea should know the truth but Moira was angry when he told her because she thought it would be better for Thea not to know, not to be disillusioned.

 

You'd think they would have known better than to do the same thing to her in s2 and keep from her that Malcolm is her biological father.  Realistic because real people don't learn that easily, but interesting in terms of the continuity from season 1 to 2 and what triggers Thea.

 

 

But on the other hand, they want Thea to be an immature teen who can't or won't understand the tough choices made by her family and, in a tantrum, refuses to sign the documents necessary to keep her family afloat.  She bankrupts her family and then waltzes away with her rich daddy, never having to worry about getting a job or paying the bills.

 She was willing to walk away alone without any money and later with Roy.  Malcolm just swooped in at the right time to manipulate her emotionally.  (Not signing the documents was stupid but then, so was Moira for not tying up her money better.)

 

But is her behaviour really any different than Laurel's, who threw a "you're not the boss of me" tantrum in ep 20 (Home Invasion) because her father wanted to give her police protection after the bad guys had killed 2 people from the case she was working on and she brought their son into her apartment?  Both were having immature hissy fits but Thea was 19 while Laurel was 28.

[slayer2]

But what does this have to do with Laurel? We're discussing Thea, just because Laurel did it doesn't mean Thea should be excused. To me at the end of the day there's no excuse for that kind of behaviour, I guess it would be something to say she walked away penniless if she weren't one of the main reasons she was penniless to begin with.

Everyone makes excuses for poor Thea when the truth is IMO she's a brat who needs discipline. In the real world this wouldn't be even close to acceptable behaviour. People jumped down Bieber's throat for his DUI and his father was the one encouraging him to do it, one could say he had the same rootless upbringing, devoid of guidance. Why is it bad for him but not for Thea. Can't we call a spade a spade? Getting in the car when you're under the influence is an asshole move that you can't pin on anybody but yourself irrespective of upbringing, class, race, gender, age, shitty parents or any other circumstances.

Edited May 25, 2014 by slayer2

[Zalyn]

I hate to be the party pooper, but I'm going to throw a penalty flag now.

 

I don't know what the rules are here, but I recall that at TWoP, there was a house rule that posters ought to avoid dictating to others how they are supposed to feel about characters, plots, etc.  I am beginning to feel that this is happening here and on some other threads, and it's making me not want to come here anymore since the season is over and it's just a lot of wheel-spinning. 

 

Also, on a substantive note, I don't know what it's like to lose a parent, but I feel uncomfortable to see the loss of a parent trivialized so much here.  It's bordering on offensive.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Zalyn

[catrox14]

I didn't think spoilers were at play since since it's at the end of s2 and we are discussing the character in total. Or at least I don't think it's in violation of posting rules.  Mods, please correct me if that is wrong.

 

As far as Thea's character and any other character IMO it's fair to discuss a character as he/she relates and to compare and contrast similar behaviors amongst characters as long as the bulk of the discussion is about the character named in the thread. 

 

I don't understand why Thea is not allowed any forgiveness for her mistakes. She was never let off the hook about anything that I've seen. She served a sentence that the court agreed to with her DUI. She made amends with Moira and then felt betrayed by Moira again.  She has lost her entire family, her business and theoretically her fortune (according to the show's rules not real life rules). She walked away from Roy because she thinks it's another betrayal of trust. She's opting in with Malcolm for still unknown reasons. Plus she is all of 19! She's not a fully mature woman yet even if she is legally an adult.  Surely some room for growth and forgiveness for a young woman finding her way to some maturity.

[Lisin]

Just a note, if you see a post you consider a problem please report it, we can't read every post on every topic. 

 

Spoilers aren't in play in character threads. If it has aired it isn't a spoiler. Within each episode thread we ask you spoiler tag anything that happens in the future (so if you're in season 2 episode 3 don't talk about something that happens in season 2 episode 17 etc.) that's it for the spoiler policy.

 

Also no one should be dictating how anyone else watches or enjoys this or any other show, please remember to be civil and keep your discussion to the show and not other posters. Thanks. 

[catrox14]

 

etting in the car when you're under the influence is an asshole move that you can't pin on anybody but yourself irrespective of upbringing, class, race, gender, age, shitty parents or any other circumstances.

 

Laurel did the same thing by getting in her car and driving under the influence and she didn't get arrested and she didn't even get a citation.  Poor decision making when under the influence of drugs and alcohol is poor decision making whether one is 19 or 29 or 49.  Thea paid the debt the court deemed appropriate. 

[slayer2]

You didn't violate any spoiler rules on here I'm just saying for me I skipped that part if the post because as I've said I've only seen up to episode 13 of season 1 and the back 6 of season 2.

Wrt Thea, I don't see a person who is trying to learn from her mistakes, I see someone who is, as the French like to say "toujours enerve" about everything all the time. Her first reaction to everything thus far has been anger, then crying foul in the form of terrible things that I don't find appropriate to say to a family member. I understand anger, but telling your mother you wish she was dead is just awful to me even if it's just for shock value and driving under the influence is the same. I tend to give forgiveness when it's earned, I'm not cool with handing it out willy nilly when the person in question just repeats the same behaviour. This I feel is Thea's main problem, awful behaviour, no repercussions then the same awful behaviour again. There should be more to answer to when you tell your Mother to drop dead then to simply have your Mum say "I'm lucky to have you." IMO Thea needs an island, she needs to be treated as an adult and held accountable for her choices and I don't believe that coming close to jail is accountable. I'd like to see some remorse from her, genuine remorse and empathy for other people. I've seen it in other characters but I've yet to see it in her. As I said I'm only on episode 13 so I hope that changes.

[statsgirl]

Oliver did tell Moira that Thea needed more discipline and Moira tried.  After that, her relationship with Thea got better and so did Thea.  At the end of Vertigo, Thea thanked Oliver and Laurel for helping get her out of her trial.

 

Also in Vertigo, when Laurel is trying to get Quentin to get the charges against Thea dropped, she mentions a time when he got charges against her dropped so she wouldn't have to go to court.

 

When Oliver was recovering from vertigo, he said it was the worst hangover he'd ever had, and Diggle replied "That's saying something from someone who spent most of his twenties hung over."  On this show, everyone behaved very badly and made mistakes in their youth.  It took the cruelty of the island, Ivo and LoA to change Sara and Oliver, it took Malcolm cutting Tommy off at 28 to change him.  In season 1 Thea was 17, now she's 19, still 4 years younger than Oliver, Laurel and Tommy were when the Queen's Gambit went down.

 

When Thea tells her mother she's not going to school because she was out late last night (getting arrested) and Moira agrees to it, that's pretty bad parenting and that's on Moira.  Presumably the bad parenting has gone on for a while since Oliver experienced it too before the island.  

 

Thea lost her father and brother at 12, she lost her stepfather at 18 because of her mother's actions, the Queens are pariahs in Starling City again because her mother was partially responsible for the earthquakes, and then with Walter gone, her older brother disappears for 5 months.  She pulls herself together and takes over the club that he just left and does a good job for 8 months.  But then her boyfriend dumps her and she gets kidnapped by Slade who tells her that her mother and brother have been lying to her for years about who her father is -- in reality he's the psychopath who killed 587 people last year.  And then Moira and Oliver want her to sign some documents because they've screwed up QC and they're about to be broke. Not surprising she turns them down.

 

"Time out" is a popular thing in parenting books and columns but I've found that often a 'time in' works better for the child.  (Time outs are very effective for the parents though so they don't lose it.)  I think what Thea needed at that point was for someone to sit down with her and give her their undivided attention so that she could talk, and process and understand everything that was going on.  And then she might have been willing to sign what papers they wanted her to.  Instead, they shoved some papers under her nose and told her to sign them or else.

 

She found that everyone she had trusted had lied to her -- Moira, Robert, Oliver, Roy -- even though she kept begging them for the truth. She's angry and she's hurt. No surprise she wants to get away from Starling City any way she can; small wonder she's willing to go with the one person who has told her the truth and tells her that he will make her strong so she won't be hurt again.

 

 

Her first reaction to everything thus far has been anger, then crying foul in the form of terrible things that I don't find appropriate to say to a family member. I understand anger, but telling your mother you wish she was dead is just awful to me even if it's just for shock value and driving under the influence is the same.

But this is what I see Laurel doing even in s2 when she's almost 30.  You'd think that Sara and Oliver went off together just to hurt her, she's mad at her parents because their marriage fell apart when Sara died even though she was ready to move out of the house at the time; she's driving drunk, she's working stoned, she is intolerably cruel to her mother and throwing glasses at the door in fits when her sister returns from the dead, and she's blackmailing her bosses to get her job back after she was fired for cause.  I give Thea a break because she's 19, not 29, and because she didn't have a happy, stable two-parent family until she was 24.

Edited May 25, 2014 by statsgirl

[slayer2]

I think we're arguing two different things, like I said I don't know what happens after 1.13 kinda wanna keep it that way until I watch it so I'm simply stating my dislike for Thea up until that point. I don't know what happens after because I haven't watched it yet but I think we should agree to disagree because I don't want to know what her arc is yet if she has one. I'm simply stating that from what I've seen of her these 13 episodes I'm not a fan.

Edited May 25, 2014 by slayer2

[BkWurm1]

Edited to say I posted this while accidentally overlooking the additional page worth of posts. My apologizes if I'm repeating what others have said. :(

See, that wouldn't seal my hatred of Laurel because to me I just think, what about him? To me yes Thea has been through a lot but it's a mere fraction of what Oliver has been through. If I were his sister I'd be there for him in whatever capacity HE needed, he was the one marooned on the island being tortured and subjected to every horror, it's the veteran analogy again for me.

I just didn't see Thea's plea for Oliver to open up to her as not being there for him. Tough love yes, but still... He came back and yes he came back a different and a broken man but I think he needed to be reminded that he did come back and that he had a family that needed him and that he as equally still needed them and that yes, he suffered horribly for five years in ways that Thea can't imagine but he was back and he wasn't still alone (Ha!) on that island. Oliver took Thea's advice and turned to Laurel.

I was horrified on Thea's behalf because she opened up and exposed her pain to him and begged for some kind of connection and he gave it away to someone that didn't need him and that was heartbreaking to me. Plus I already didn't like Laurel so she got the backlash and didn't get any kind of redemption until she and Tommy got together. I genuinely was rooting for them as a couple and I won't say anything more on that since you are in the middle of watching season one but back to Thea.

I'm fine calling her selfish because honestly most teens are myopic and spoiled because she had for the last five years probably been granted any material want she could think of but I also feel a great sympathy toward her because in a way, she was left more adrift and alone than Oliver. He had horrid, traumatic, life threatening events but he also had mentors and teachers and extreme expectations and what I saw was that Thea lost the only father she knew and the brother she adored to death and then also lost her mother to her own guilt and grief. That's what I understood from the scene where Thea took him to his fake headstone. She was seventeen going on eighteen when Oliver came back but she was only 12 when she lost every important person in her life. I'm not saying she suffered the kind of trauma Oliver did, but I do think she suffered and it was in that scene when she tried to make him understand that she needed him and maybe even more importantly, that he needed to make a connection with someone now in his new old life that made me understand where Thea's behavior was coming from.

Her expectations when Oliver returned were way too high but she is young and inexperienced and Oliver didn't let on even to a tenth of what he's gone through for her to even have a clue to the degree of his post traumatic distress. She was right back to being that broken, lost little girl who had no one of substance in her life to talk to only it was far worse because there he was, her beloved big brother within touching distance only he was still back on that island and she was still left weeping in front of an empty grave.

Thea's behavior deserved condemnation, but Thea deserved IMO our sympathy and when given the chance, she put aside her childish ways. She obviously still had her issues as seen in the back half of season two, but she's still so young and she barely had a chance to find her footing before her world was ripped our from under her again. I expect her to struggle to find her true self for a while but to be the stronger for it when she does.

Thea needs a Slade Wilson or a Yao Fe (?) badly.

I think we can expect Thea getting her version of them rolled into the package of one gleefully maniacal Malcolm Merlyn.

Edited May 26, 2014 by BkWurm1

[calliope1975]

Since Malcolm was all about how he's never lied to Thea, how long until he drops the Oliver is Arrow bomb? In the limo? First day of training? Or will he hold that in his pocket until he pits her against her brother? This might actually belong in the Malcolm Merlyn thread, but if he does hold this info back, it might be the catalyst for Thea to go over to the hero side. 

 

As mentioned in other threads, I'd love for Felicity to help Thea adjust to why her brother and Roy decided to join the hero lifestyle. Or maybe Diggle. I liked their rapport when he was guarding her. Actually, now that I think about it, that dynamic might be more interesting. Diggle could be a really great surrogate, non-PTSD, older brother to Thea.

[tv echo]

I said that I couldn't stand Thea now, but I want to clarify that I do think she's redeemable - unlike Laurel, whose back story, character and actions make her utterly unworthy to be either a superhero or a true love for a superhero.  So far, Thea's lived up to her background as a spoiled, rich teen.  However, in Season 3, I could see her really growing up, changing, and earning her place as a hero. and finally reconciling and allying with her brother.

 

That said, I don't think I was too harsh in my criticism about Thea to date.  I've never understood the inconsistent way in which 18, 19 and 20 year olds are regarded.  Their bad behavior is often excused as them being immature, young or "just a kid" (perfect example is Justin Bieber).  Yet, at the same time, we consider teens this age to be adults who can fight, kill and die for our country.  They're also old enough to enter into legally binding contracts and to be tried as an adult for crimes committed.  If teens are just kids, then raise the legal adult age and military service age to 21.

[Zalyn]

Since Malcolm was all about how he's never lied to Thea, how long until he drops the Oliver is Arrow bomb? In the limo? First day of training? Or will he hold that in his pocket until he pits her against her brother? This might actually belong in the Malcolm Merlyn thread, but if he does hold this info back, it might be the catalyst for Thea to go over to the hero side.

That's part of why I like the Thea character; the writers seem to do a good job of laying some plot-mines that blow up at interesting times to keep things going.  First, it was the daddy issue, which was reaped in the finale to give us something to look forward to, now it's this.  In this case, I think it would be MM's interest to not let Thea know ever, but I predict if she did go head-to-head with Arrow, she'll find out, and that will give some nice options on where to go character-wise from there.

 

That said, I don't think I was too harsh in my criticism about Thea to date.  I've never understood the inconsistent way in which 18, 19 and 20 year olds are regarded.  Their bad behavior is often excused as them being immature, young or "just a kid" (perfect example is Justin Bieber).  Yet, at the same time, we consider teens this age to be adults who can fight, kill and die for our country.  They're also old enough to enter into legally binding contracts and to be tried as an adult for crimes committed.  If teens are just kids, then raise the legal adult age and military service age to 21.

This is something I'm quite passionate about - but it would be a long discussion.  There are some interesting books out there about how childhood and adolescence were unknown until fairly recently in Western history (see Vikings and read Game of Thrones for how children are expected to fight early on). I think part of the problem is that we draw such a sharp line - at 17 you're as much of a child as a 7 year old*, but on your 18th birthday, credit card companies can target you, anything you sign is legally binding, and yes, guys can be drafted and sent off to war.  But of course, you can't drink, and you can't get certain other things done (childfree people have trouble getting voluntary sterilizations until they're at least 25 or so) that adults should be able to do.  And I think that the lack of mentorship for 16-25 year olds makes it even harder for young adults to figure out how to be adults.

 

*We just had an incident at my school where the school paper released a well-written and informative issue on sexuality - including asexuality, contraception, transgender issues - and it was banned from release during a large public event because "think of the children!".  It was resolved to allow distribution at one table, but only if the recipient had ID showing they were 18+.  Although the issue was framed as a 5 year old grabbing a copy (who lets their child do that?) and flipping to the one page that had medical illustrations of anatomy, the policy was also excluding 14-17 year olds, many of whom are sexually active, know how to use the internet, and would have benefited from the information.

 

So to come back to Thea - I find it interesting when we have young people working in establishments that sell alcohol even if they aren't allowed to drink it.  The laws that we have in place keep power and responsibility away from young people until their 18th birthday, at which point they're thrown completely into the ring with no training wheels, but they're still seen as sub-adults in many cases. So they bear all the responsibility but not all of the privileges.  Basically, we went with a really impoverished binary system of "child-adult" that does disservice to everyone and proves to be really leaky all over the place.

 

But one thing I keep needing to remember with Thea is that her story started at 12 - which is a very formative time - and that she and her mother gelled into a certain type of interaction over those five years that is really hard to break out of.  It doesn't change when you turn 18; my parents still had trouble treating me like an adult even when I was 25 and had come back from the Navy - part of it was that they hadn't seen me much between 18-25 since I was away at college and then overseas.  We tend to get stuck at the emotional stage we were at when we last were with a person regularly.  So likewise, I think Thea would regress to being 12 around Oliver and has struggled to break away from that.

[abhi]

Ok, I was wondering just how strong Thea will become during the hiatus after after being trained by the Dark Archer 24x7?  Will she be at the same level as Roy who has been fighting and getting his ass kicked in the Glades throughout his life. 

At least she will be stronger than Laurel though. 

[statsgirl]

She may not be at the same level as Roy, but I think she'll be fighting smarter because Malcolm will had taught her what he learned from the LoA.  Maybe even better than Roy unless he's really been working out with Diggle during the hiatus.

Edited June 18, 2014 by statsgirl

[Velocity23]

Today is Willa Hollands 23rd birthday! 

[wingster55]

Man, Willa and Barrowman are just so much fun together (obviously..it's Barrowman).

Can't wait to see that on screen (again).

[willpwr]

When I started watching this show, I thought Thea was bratty but then I started thinking about what it must have been like for her character growing up the way she did and I started understanding and appreciating her character more each time, most of this came about due to Willa Holland's performance. I like that her character isn't static and that IMO she's actually trying to make strides to improve and mature, sure there will be setbacks, there always are and she's a pretty flawed character but I feel like she owns her flaws and tries to work on them. I remember when she met Roy, he called her a spoiled rich kid that never had to work, she ended up running Verdant; she didn't like him chasing the Vigilante and fighting because she was worried but she ended up helping Roy try to find him and then told him she liked that he was willing to take risks to help others. Sometimes she reverts back to her bratty ways, usually though after finding out about secrets that have been kept from her. I think that if people were more honest with her they'd realize she's strong and willing to make changes, however, at the same time, I'm kind of glad they have kept secrets from her due to what is being said about her and Malcolm's relationship next season and how it will more than likely affect her and Oliver's relationship.

 

I have read a few of Willa Holland' interviews and I'm usually impressed by how she comes across to me. I, in particular, like these two replies: 

 

The writers have been dropping fun hints and teases about Speedy all season long. Are you itching to pick up a bow and arrow?

I am ready and waiting to go. I have told the archery coach that whenever she is free, I’m totally down to get lessons. I’ve been going to the gym a lot trying to get myself physically fit, to prove to them that I can kick some ass. [Laughs.] But I’ve had talks with writers and our producer Marc [Guggenheim] and I definitely agree with this theory of theirs that in order to do justice to everything that Oliver went through on the island that made him turn into the Arrow, we wanted to develop all of our characters a little bit stronger. We just wanted to do justice to what we believe could take somebody into that place [of becoming a vigilante]. We don’t want to just throw them into [being a crime fighter] just willy nilly. We kind of want to build them up a little bit and give them reasons to get that way

 

-from Huffington Post interview May 2013

 

&

ETonline: I loved watching the show slowly evolve into an ensemble this season — was that the plan all along?

Willa Holland: Originally, Katie [Cassidy, Laurel], Colin [Donnell, Tommy] and myself signed on as series regulars, but we all knew the show was Stephen Amell-based. So we waited for things to start rolling for us, while being surprised and excited by everything we were given along the way. I mean, we were sitting there, like starving children, waiting for the writers to feed us and then we all got these amazing meals. It’s been such an amazing experience.

 

She just seems to appreciate everything, I really respect that.

 

[SonofaBiscuit]

Yeah, I wasn't a fan of Willa's character when she was on The O.C., but I like her here.  She's always had great chemistry with Roy and seriously, she's like the most supportive girlfriend ever when it comes to him.  She is so adorable with John Barrowman in real life (in a nice father/daughter sort of way), so I'm looking forward to seeing more of her in season three. I'm really hoping that the writers do her "island" story justice. 

[BkWurm1]

I knew Willa from the O.C. and when her character first shows up she was hated and I never thought I would ever change my mind but the show brought her back and somehow Willa made her sympathetic and relatable even while keeping her edge.  By the end of her season (I think she only got one full season since the show then got canceled) I loved her character. 

 

The writers had to have helped since they pulled a similar miracle off with another character that year but if anyone remembers Marissa and the actress playing her (I was rooting for her to die at the end) it's clear it takes both good writing and good acting to pull off an attitude change with the audience.  Willa did that while not sacrificing who the character started out to be. 

 

So I am so ready for her to kick ass this season.  Bring on the Barrowman. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

Yes, Marissa definitely overstayed her welcome...

 

I'm glad Barrowman is heavily involved with Thea's arc.  I'm hoping that if the writers try to do anything dumb, he will steer them clear of that by providing some helpful suggestions like he did when they tried to make Malcolm Oliver's father instead.  I'm expecting good things from these two.

[FurryFury]

I knew Willa from the O.C. and when her character first shows up she was hated and I never thought I would ever change my mind but the show brought her back and somehow Willa made her sympathetic and relatable even while keeping her edge.

 

I had absolutely the same reaction! I was all set up to hate her, and then... I didn't. In fact, I liked her a lot.

 

I'm not as sure about Barrowman... I mean, he's very fun and I loved him on DW/Torchwood, but if he is allowed to have some input/has some clout with the writers, how about, I dunno, finally explaining how his character came back from the dead? Because it was so stupid I still can't believe it. Still, I think Thea and Thea/Malcolm story have a great amount of potential... and knowing these writers, they will squander it all by the end of the season, just like how they did with Slade. This set-up makes it possible to create a great, kick-ass and memorable female character by putting her through a training from hell/break the cutie arc, and then have to clash against her lying douchebag of a brother (ahem) for some reason (not hard to invent something). Plus we have a complicated relationship with not one, but two father figures (Malcolm and Walter, if they bother to remember he was more of a father to her than Robert Queen ever was). A love interest who lied to her, like her brother. The potential is limitless.

 

However, if they were truly invested into making Thea's journey happen, they'd have to kill off Roy somewhere during the season, imho. By this point, it's quite clear he won't be a real hit. He's just... there. Colton Haynes may be charming in real life, but his character sure ain't. But having Thea lose her first love, maybe even by (accidentally?) killing him, would make a great story, at least in my mind. But, it seems, the show is too committed to Roy, for some reason I can't fathom.

[catrox14]

As to Malcolm coming back from the dead, why would that have to be Barrowman's explanation? He's not the writer.  He can make suggestions like he (or rather his husband, Scott) made for Thea to be Malcolm's spawn instead of it being Oliver but ultimately it's on the producers and writers as to Malcolm's resurrection. As of the time of his resurrection the EPs said they don't intend to explain it.  Maybe they will going forward, but that's not on Barrowman.

 

Barrowman is a savvy business man, he's a consummate professional despite being a huge prankster on set, and he knows that this is The Stephen Amell Show no matter who else is around.  He's given Stephen advice on how to be the leader on his show even though he's not an EP.  So, I don't think Barrowman is going to take over the show or anything like that. 

 

Why do they have to kill Roy to advance Thea's story? Roy is Arsenal. That's why he won't be killed off. And there is a built in conflict already because of her being Malcolm's daughter. Once he finds out that should make things interesting.

Edited July 30, 2014 by catrox14

[FurryFury]

As to Malcolm coming back from the dead, why would that have to be Barrowman's explanation? He's not the writer.  He can make suggestions like he (or rather his husband, Scott) made for Thea to be Malcolm's spawn instead of it being Oliver but ultimately it's on the producers and writers as to Malcolm's resurrection.

 

Of course it's on the writers, I don't doubt that. But still, I feel that they would have put more effort if their actor insisted on that. Maybe they will, though.

 

Why do they have to kill Roy to advance Thea's story? Roy is Arsenal. That's why he won't be killed off. And there is a built in conflict already because of her being Malcolm's daughter. Once he finds out that should make things interesting.

 

I think that Roy's dead space, basically. He isn't anywhere as bad as Laurel, but it does seem his story is kinda meandering, without purpose. I don't know who Arsenal is (and frankly, don't care). I only judge based on what was shown on screen. 

 

Anyway, I already understood that my vision is way too different from the writers' to continue watching. So Thea/Roy will probably continue, even if does eat up the screen time without being really interesting or moving.

[catrox14]

I like Roy a lot and I would be sad to see him killed off.  I especially don't think he needs to be fridged to give Thea an arc.  Roy

is Arsenal, his superhero persona for s3, so that's why he won't be killed off.

.

 

ETA: should have spoiler tagged my Roy comment. Sorry.

Edited July 30, 2014 by catrox14

[Happy Harpy]

I like Roy a lot and I would be sad to see him killed off.  I especially don't think he needs to be fridged to give Thea an arc.

ITA. I really wish that this show -and others- stopped killing characters off in order to contribute to another character's arc. If I understood correctly, Moira was killed partly in order to "force" Thea to go with Malcolm. That's enough. IRL people don't need to lose loved ones in order to grow up, mature or change for better or worse (thankfully!) so there must be many other options here.

 

I think that Roy contributed to Thea's character  development, at least. In S1, when she tried to help him, it was the first time I saw the bratty rich girl genuinely trying to help someone. And it's to save him that she had her first badass moment in the S1 finale. The reverse is true: it's with her that, in the same S1 finale, Roy showed that he was more than an eager, cocky fanboy and was ready to sacrifice himself -but not the woman he loved- in order to save people; personally, this scene is the one when I really took a liking to the character.

 

I find that Thea is a complex character, a mix of cynism and idealism that rings very true to me. She makes mistakes because she's young, because her parents didn't parent her (I love how it was addressed on the show), because of her temper. But she's not a twat, and that's why I appreciate her.

[BkWurm1]

She makes mistakes because she's young, because her parents didn't parent her (I love how it was addressed on the show), because of her temper. But she's not a twat, and that's why I appreciate her

 

I think this is why I was so forgiving of Thea in the first season when she did have more bratty moments.  It was clear that Moira's version of parenting was going off and doing her own thing.  There's a point after Walter has been kidnapped and Moira won't leave the house and hardly got out of bed where Thea yells at Moira that her mom wasn't the only one that lost Walter, wasn't the only one hurting, wasn't the only one that lost dad or Oliver. She's begging her mom to be a mom and be her mother.

 

Her speech got Moira to get out of bed and leave the house but it didn't get her a parent.  She was still left to figure it out alone.  Thea had a similar scene early on where she told Oliver how alone and lonely she was and how desperate she was to connect with him.  Oliver heard only the part about him needing to connect with someone and turned to Laurel.  Thea gets ignored until she does something big brother doesn't approve of.

 

Thea was literally crying out for guidance and kept being disappointed but she didn't spiral out of control, (well a little bit but it lead to better things) she went out and found someone that gave her a sense of purpose and a deep connection and then she kept reaching out to the other important people in her life even as she stopped playing party girl.  I find her both admirable and highly empathetic. 

Edited July 31, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Starfish35]

I think Oliver's treatment of Thea is the one thing I almost can't forgive him for, and I hope it's addressed during this upcoming season. He seems to love her, but he never seems to be there for her. He abandoned her after the Undertaking. Her mother was in jail, Tommy was dead, and he just ran off and left her. And then after Moira was killed, not showing up to the funeral and making her go through that alone? He never seems to consider her, that she might be as traumatized as he is. The one thing Laurel said to him in her speech that I did appreciate was remind him of Thea.

I honestly don't know that I'd blame Thea for hating his guts at this point. I don't know that that translates to running off with a mass murderer, but still.

[wingster55]

Reading these posts..she has a lot in common with Kaitlin Cooper.

I mean..the OC? What's that?

[BkWurm1]

Poor Kaitlin and her bald pony. 

[wingster55]

and I hope it's addressed during this upcoming season. He seems to love her, but he never seems to be there for her.

 

Boy I hope so.

As for running off with Malcolm..I think it's like Willa said. No room for disappointment. 

[BkWurm1]

Yep plus she can feel free to use him with no guilt. Just let the anger take over completely.

[tv echo]

I confess I have not been a fan of Thea.  I've found her bratty and spoiled.  After she fails to sign those papers that would've saved the Queen family fortune, she never has to struggle to earn a living because she goes off in the stretch limo with her rich bio dad, Malcolm Meryln (wearing her expensive black leather pants, no less).  I hope that this season will see her grow up and mature.  As yet, I don't think she's earned anything.

 

However, I do like WH based on her interviews.

Edited July 31, 2014 by tv echo

[ban1o]

Yeah Oliver treated Thea pretty badly. I really don't understand how lying to her all the time was protecting her. Also, although Roy does have free will, it's pretty much due to Oliver's influence that Roy kept lying to Thea. I mean Oliver kept telling Roy, "Thea must never know" and such and considering Oliver has literally shot an arrow to his knee when he was annoyed by him, I don't blame him entirely for listening to Oliver. I wonder if Oliver has realized how much his actions have hurt Thea and basically driven her away. I hope in season 3 he'll reflect about how he has made wrong choices concerning Thea.  

 

I still think they could have written Thea leaving with a known mass murderer and manipulator a little bit better. I mean this guy tried to kill Oliver and killed her father, manipulated her mother, kidnaped Walter killed over 500 people, destroyed half of a city and so on.  I didn't completely buy that she hated/distrusted her brother enough to just leave. I am interested in her storyline though.  

Edited July 31, 2014 by ban1o