Friends - General Discussion

[AgathaC]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

What made her look even worse was how after all that basically sabotaged Ross’s relationship with the girl who shaved her head when he was trying to move on, acting like she had buyers remorse for breaking up with, but then had to get on her high horse by making him read the stupid letter and forcing him to admit he cheated, and when he cracks with the “we were on a break” bit, she wastes no time in re-dumping him because she still can’t get over playing the victim.

And then of course was the whole Emily mess. I don’t know if Rachel hastened the inevitable showing up when she did at the wedding, but I feel like Ross got more crap for blurting Rachel’s name at the vows than Rachel did for her attempt to break up the wedding (even though she backed out of it). And by acting all put out that Emily asked Ross to cut Rachel off because it inconvenienced the rest of them, the gang basically enabled Rachel ‘s behavior.  

It’s like she was so wishy washy about wanting Ross back even though she couldn’t stand seeing him with another woman. It was manipulative.

Precisely. Her behavior after the break-up was awful. And while Phoebe and Monica both tried to talk her out of things (Phoebe with London and Monica dissuading her from telling him she loved him after they were back), neither one was as tough as they should have been.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

I feel like a right weasel "both sides"-ing this, but I don't think I'm that far off. Ross could have just admitted he made a mistake. Rachel could have just chosen to forgive Ross. Either one of them could have just accepted that their relationship wasn't meant to be, and just let the other be happy. 

But they never did. It was just this miserable cycle of obsession, sabotage, breaking up, making up, etc. 

Don’t feel like a weasel. Sometimes it’s fine to both side things, and this is definitely one of those times. They were both toxic people and neither one of them ever really grew up. And they were both enabled by the group.

God help poor Emma.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Spartan Girl

[peacheslatour]

Quote

I personally always felt ripped off that Phoebe, usually the Queen of Brutal Honesty, never called Rachel out on her behavior (or if she did, it wasn't nearly often enough). 

Monica did though.

[AgathaC]

7 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Monica did though.

I appreciated that one! Given some of the insults Rachel threw at Monica (and Chandler) in that fight, Rachel deserved more.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Monica did though.

Rachel’s whole character arc in a nutshell.

Honestly, I would have loved it if Chandler, Monica, and Joey got so fed up with the Ross/Rachel drama that they wound up agreeing with Emily’s ultimatum. Really, would it have been so terrible if they could hang out with the two of them separately instead of always getting caught in the middle whenever they hooked up or fell out?

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Either one of them could have just accepted that their relationship wasn't meant to be, and just let the other be happy. 

Exactly. Both of them seemed to have this weird entitlement about the other in different ways. If Ross was with someone else, Rachel thought he should be with her. And Ross was forever the nerd resenting the cheerleader for not liking him back, even though he didn't seem to actually like her as a person.

It often brings me back to that bizarre moment where they're watching the prom video and Rachel is moved to kiss him because she sees how he was hoping she would get stood up on prom night so he could go out with her without having to ask. If that's both their ideas of high romance...that's toxic. 

No wonder Monica and Chandler were so refreshing.

[chitowngirl]

18 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Rachel is moved to kiss him because she sees how he was hoping she would get stood up on prom night so he could go out with her without having to ask.

She’s moved to kiss him because she didn’t realize that he thought she got stood up and he got into a tux so she wouldn’t miss her prom.

[JessDVD]

What I find so weird about Rachel kissing Ross after finding out that he was prepared to take her to the prom so she wouldn't miss it - is that I've seen interviews with Marta Kauffman talking about what a wonderful moment that was, giving everyone tingles and good feelings and it's such a mountaintop time in the story of Friends. I saw that before I watched through Friends, and when I got to it, I thought "oh, here we are in actual Ross and Rachel" and then it was like 4 episodes later that they were broken up. WTF?

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

She’s moved to kiss him because she didn’t realize that he thought she got stood up and he got into a tux so she wouldn’t miss her prom.

He's *sad* when she doesn't get stood up because he didn't get to take her. Rachel reacts to it as if he really is her friend's college-aged brother who would have done something really nice for her when she and everyone else already know he's been crushing on her for years. That's why the end of the video is about feeling sorry for Ross. 

It's like saying that Victoria Secret model ought to get choked up and kiss Chandler for being willing to entertain her when they were locked in the ATM vestibule. 

[Spartan Girl]

Honestly, as much as I hate that stupid prom video episode and Phoebe’s insufferable “he’s her lobster” spiel** and everything it stands for, I couldn’t help feeling bad for Ross in the video. It was his parents’ idea that he take Rachel to the prom, but they kept goading him into it and building up his confidence and hopes only to get completely crushed. And all because Rachel was such a drama queen over her date being a few minutes late.

I agree with @sistermagpie but David just really sold that crestfallen look.

**Also, stop trying to make “felangie” happen, Phoebe! It’s not gonna happen.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Spartan Girl

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Honestly, as much as I hate that stupid prom video episode and Phoebe’s insufferable “he’s her lobster” spiel** and everything it stands for, I couldn’t help feeling bad for Ross in the video. It was his parents’ idea that he take Rachel to the prom, but they kept goading him into it and building up his confidence and hopes only to get completely crushed. And all because Rachel was such a drama queen over her date being a few minutes late.

 

He is great in the scene--and I feel sorry for him too! But we've seen him in similar situations with Rachel before.

Like, if Ross hadn't cared about Rachel in high school and just thought of her as Monica's annoying little friend, she'd have a reason for seeing him differently if she knew he was ready to embarass himself as a cool college guy and give up a night to take her to the prom.

Instead it's exactly as you said--his parents goad him into doing it and he gets crushed. He's so sympathetic in that moment that when he comes down to find them all leaving you almost feel like Rachel's being thoughtless for not considering his feelings when she had no reason to do that.

[partofme]

Call me heartless, but I didn’t feel the least bit sorry for Ross when Rachel’s actual date showed up.

He was obsessed with the idea of her, the popular unobtainable cheerleader for years it it became clear he didn’t actually respect her or like her as a person.  

[Spartan Girl]

12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

He's so sympathetic in that moment that when he comes down to find them all leaving you almost feel like Rachel's being thoughtless for not considering his feelings when she had no reason to do that.

That only would have worked if Rachel had known that Monica’s parents were going to make her brother take her to the prom out of pity and just forgot about it when Chip showed up and she completely forgot all about the whole thing until they found the video.

Huh. Now that I think about it, that might have been a better way to do the episode. Then Rachel would have realized that she really could be just as insensitive as Ross making that dumb list, and that kiss would have been much more meaningful than just her being touched by a thwarted grand gesture.

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

That only would have worked if Rachel had known that Monica’s parents were going to make her brother take her to the prom out of pity and just forgot about it when Chip showed up and she completely forgot all about the whole thing until they found the video.

 

Right, I feel like it's just a testament to how sympathetic Ross seems in that video that looking at his crushed face while Rachel just skips out not caring I almost forget for a second that all Rachel did was freak out briefly when her date was late and then leave with him when he got there. 

Really, the Gellars were more dramatic about the whole thing than Rachel herself. It didn't occur to her to start demanding a stand in date!

[Bort]

The stupidest part of the prom video episode is that Rachel forgets all about the degrading list that made her not want to date Ross in the first place.

37 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Also, stop trying to make “felangie” happen, Phoebe! It’s not gonna happen.

It’s “phalange,” it means finger or toe. I have no idea why Phoebe was obsessed with fingers/toes.

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, JessDVD said:

What I find so weird about Rachel kissing Ross after finding out that he was prepared to take her to the prom so she wouldn't miss it - is that I've seen interviews with Marta Kauffman talking about what a wonderful moment that was, giving everyone tingles and good feelings and it's such a mountaintop time in the story of Friends. I saw that before I watched through Friends, and when I got to it, I thought "oh, here we are in actual Ross and Rachel" and then it was like 4 episodes later that they were broken up. WTF?

Well it was a bit more than 4 episodes later... more like 25 episodes. The prom video ep (where R/R actually became a couple) was halfway through Season 2, and they broke up about halfway through Season 3. Had to consult Wikipedia for the exact count - my memory's not that good.

[Spartan Girl]

2 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

It’s “phalange,” it means finger or toe. I have no idea why Phoebe was obsessed with fingers/toes.

Ah, ok. Still hate it and all of Phoebe’s stupid catchphrases though.

 

21 minutes ago, partofme said:

Call me heartless, but I didn’t feel the least bit sorry for Ross when Rachel’s actual date showed up.

He was obsessed with the idea of her, the popular unobtainable cheerleader for years it it became clear he didn’t actually respect her or like her as a person.  

Not disagreeing. I don’t feel bad that Rachel’s date showed up, I feel bad that Ross’s parents basically goaded him into it and built up his expectations and set him up (unintentionally) to be crushed. When what they should have done was tell him to be honest with Rachel and/or stop obsessing about her because there’s other fish in the sea.

This is how Nice Guys are created, folks. Because their parents basically coddle them into thinking they’re entitled to whatever they want.

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Right, I feel like it's just a testament to how sympathetic Ross seems in that video that looking at his crushed face while Rachel just skips out not caring I almost forget for a second that all Rachel did was freak out briefly when her date was late and then leave with him when he got there. 

Really, the Gellars were more dramatic about the whole thing than Rachel herself. It didn't occur to her to start demanding a stand in date!

BINGO.

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

The stupidest part of the prom video episode is that Rachel forgets all about the degrading list that made her not want to date Ross in the first place.

 

7 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

This is how Nice Guys are created, folks. Because their parents basically coddle them into thinking they’re entitled to whatever they want.

Yeah, while I don't think Ross is a worse person, this is the reason that when it comes to their relationship, he still seems the bigger problem.

Both seem somewhat stuck in their prom queen/nerd personas, but for Rachel that just meant she thought he was often boring and nerdy and uncool--but she also saw good qualities in him. She didn't seem to see herself as still the prom queen doing the nerd a favor by seeing seen with him. As annoying as her behavior often was, I believed she often genuinely loved the guy.

But on Ross's side, he had years of longing for her while telling himself she wasn't worth it!  I totally bought it when Brad Pitt revealed the two of them had an I Hate Rachel Green *club* in high school, started a rumor about her etc. He really did seem to feel like he was superior to her while being insecure and that just seemed like a really toxic situation. Like did he ever really honestly know why he wanted her?

It sort of felt like that list he made really did sum up how he felt about her, that she was nothing special except for that she was Rachel Green, the prom queen and he just couldn't quit her. (And of course both of them deserved to be with somebody who didn't hold their life's work in total contempt.) 

[chitowngirl]

11 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Also, stop trying to make “felangie” happen, Phoebe! It’s not gonna happen.

 

10 hours ago, kariyaki said:

It’s “phalange,” it means finger or toe. I have no idea why Phoebe was obsessed with fingers/toes.

Well, it did get a plane delayed until they fixed the “phalange” and even put extras on! Seriously…no one knew what a phalange is??

[AgathaC]

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Yeah, while I don't think Ross is a worse person, this is the reason that when it comes to their relationship, he still seems the bigger problem.

Both seem somewhat stuck in their prom queen/nerd personas, but for Rachel that just meant she thought he was often boring and nerdy and uncool--but she also saw good qualities in him. She didn't seem to see herself as still the prom queen doing the nerd a favor by seeing seen with him. As annoying as her behavior often was, I believed she often genuinely loved the guy.

But on Ross's side, he had years of longing for her while telling himself she wasn't worth it!  I totally bought it when Brad Pitt revealed the two of them had an I Hate Rachel Green *club* in high school, started a rumor about her etc. He really did seem to feel like he was superior to her while being insecure and that just seemed like a really toxic situation. Like did he ever really honestly know why he wanted her?

It sort of felt like that list he made really did sum up how he felt about her, that she was nothing special except for that she was Rachel Green, the prom queen and he just couldn't quit her. (And of course both of them deserved to be with somebody who didn't hold their life's work in total contempt.) 

I think that’s an accurate assessment of Ross. His parents treated him like the Golden One, while to everyone else, he was an awkward nerd. That’s a prime recipe for the insecurity/superiority complex.

Rachel did poke fun at his nerdy tendencies (and often at Monica’s), but, overall, I think she had moved on from her Queen Bee persona. Ross hadn’t advanced that far.

[Laura Holt]

13 minutes ago, AgathaC said:

Rachel did poke fun at his nerdy tendencies (and often at Monica’s), but, overall, I think she had moved on from her Queen Bee persona. Ross hadn’t advanced that far.

Leaving her relationship with Ross aside I felt that Rachel showed the most development as a person during the run of the show.  She started off essentially a nice person but very self involved and privileged.  Her first job at the coffee shop knocked a lot of that out of her and it was one of the things I liked best about Friends - that they demonstrated, at least to some degree, the difference between "the haves" and "the have nots".  By the time Rachel really found her feet and progressed in her career she had left her prom queen days well behind her.

[AgathaC]

17 minutes ago, Laura Holt said:

Leaving her relationship with Ross aside I felt that Rachel showed the most development as a person during the run of the show.  She started off essentially a nice person but very self involved and privileged.  Her first job at the coffee shop knocked a lot of that out of her and it was one of the things I liked best about Friends - that they demonstrated, at least to some degree, the difference between "the haves" and "the have nots".  By the time Rachel really found her feet and progressed in her career she had left her prom queen days well behind her.

Agreed. She was spoiled and self-centered at times, but, I felt she was fundamentally a kind person. That’s part of why she was able to make that change with life experience, as opposed to being bitter or giving up or reverting later on.

[Bort]

Rachel being spoiled and self centered but still nice is something that they did well to establish, even in the flashbacks. There aren’t very many popular cheerleaders who would be friends with Monica in high school.

[Quof]

The friendship dated back to at least elementary school. They trick or treated together when they were 10.

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, Quof said:

The friendship dated back to at least elementary school. They trick or treated together when they were 10.

Still though, those kind of friendships have been known to fall by the wayside later. Especially when one kid is popular and the other one isn't. It says a lot about Rachel that she stayed friends with Monica.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

Still though, those kind of friendships have been known to fall by the wayside later. Especially when one kid is popular and the other one isn't. It says a lot about Rachel that she stayed friends with Monica.

But it obviously faded at some point, since Monica was not even invited to her wedding to Barry. (Not a slam against Rachel; it happens!)

[Bort]

It did, but it happened after Monica lost weight. I’m guessing she and Rachel lost touch by going to different colleges.

[bluegirl147]

21 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Rachel being spoiled and self centered but still nice is something that they did well to establish, even in the flashbacks. There aren’t very many popular cheerleaders who would be friends with Monica in high school.

Yeah she wasn't a Regina George.  Aside from her relationship with Ross she would have been fun to be around.  

I think all the characters were stereotypes but the actors made them anything but stereotypes.  As far as I'm concerned the acting surpassed the writing on this show.

[WendyCR72]

I know he is a respected veteran director of many, many shows through the decades, and I was not overly fond of the character of Emily, but I think this is sort of a douche move on James Burrows' part: Deadline has posted Burrows' thoughts on Helen Baxendale, I guess from a book of his, and he just sounds...mean, I guess.

Shrug.

[AgathaC]

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I know he is a respected veteran director of many, many shows through the decades, and I was not overly fond of the character of Emily, but I think this is sort of a douche move on James Burrows' part: Deadline has posted Burrows' thoughts on Helen Baxendale, I guess from a book of his, and he just sounds...mean, I guess.

Shrug.

Yeah, it seemed kind of unnecessary. It’s not juicy and gossipy, like she was a raging bitch on wheels who made outrageous demands. Burrows just didn’t think she was funny. Why bother calling her out like that?

[Wiendish Fitch]

43 minutes ago, AgathaC said:

Yeah, it seemed kind of unnecessary. It’s not juicy and gossipy, like she was a raging bitch on wheels who made outrageous demands. Burrows just didn’t think she was funny. Why bother calling her out like that?

If Emily "wasn't funny", I blame that more on how she's written rather than Helen Baxendale. She wasn't given that many funny lines (though she did have them, and I thought she delivered them just fine). Regardless of how one feels about Ms. Baxendale... why bitch about her and her TV character now? James Burrow sounds like a petty jerk.

Furthermore, considering that Emily was written to get unceremoniously dumped by Ross, does it really matter at this point if they "had no chemistry"??

You don't hear about Bob Newhart trashing Jennifer Holmes from Newhart just because her character was boring (also not Holmes's fault). 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Wiendish Fitch

[Bort]

Well, in defense of Burrows, this is an excerpt from his memoires, so I’m sure the topic isn’t very big in comparison to everything else. Not to mention, I’m sure he gets asked about the abrupt Emily departure a lot, so he decided to say why.

[Crs97]

It reminds me of Jason Alexander going after the actress who played his fiancée on Seinfeld - never a good look for the complainer.

In a perfect world David Schwimmer will post something nice about Helen. 

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

If Emily "wasn't funny", I blame that more on how she's written rather than Helen Baxendale. She wasn't given that many funny lines (though she did have them, and I thought she delivered them just fine). Regardless of how one feels about Ms. Baxendale... why bitch about her and her TV character now? James Burrow sounds like a petty jerk.

Furthermore, considering that Emily was written to get unceremoniously dumped by Ross, does it really matter at this point if they "had no chemistry"??

You don't hear about Bob Newhart trashing Jennifer Holmes from Newhart just because her character was boring (also not Holmes's fault). 

This just reeks of how everyone crapped on Emily VanCamp’s Sharon Carter because the writers couldn’t do her justice and the Stucky fandom wanted her out of the way of their imaginary ship that was never going to happen, which Hayley Atwell milked for all it was worth to shoehorn Peggy back in. 

The showrunners were NEVER going to let Ross be with anyone but Rachel, blaming Helen is just bullshit.

[Snow Apple]

None of the gang's love interests were funny except for Janice who was written as goofy. They all were kind of boring (as we all are in real life). Emily was just a normal regular person and Helen played her well enough. Emily even liked Rachel in the beginning. But they want Ross/Rachel to be end game, but couldn't break up Ross/Emily in a mature way. They want us to hate the "other woman" and made her bitchy and controlling, and it worked for a while, but endless reruns made us realize they did Emily wrong. 

[partofme]

20 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I know he is a respected veteran director of many, many shows through the decades, and I was not overly fond of the character of Emily, but I think this is sort of a douche move on James Burrows' part: Deadline has posted Burrows' thoughts on Helen Baxendale, I guess from a book of his, and he just sounds...mean, I guess.

Shrug.

Ross was at his most likeable with Emily.  I thought they were adorable together and I don’t normally like Ross.  In my head Ross and Emily find each other again after the show ends.  

Edited September 2, 2023 by partofme

[chitowngirl]

1 minute ago, partofme said:

 In my head Ross and Emily find each other again after the show ends.  

Hopefully Emily accepts the fact that Ross cannot cut Rachel out of his life since she’s the mother of his daughter!

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

Hopefully Emily accepts the fact that Ross cannot cut Rachel out of his life since she’s the mother of his daughter!

Ross hasn' tseen Ben since Emma was born.  Emily pops out a kid, Emma is history.

9 hours ago, partofme said:

Ross was at his most likeable with Emily.  I thought they were adorable together and I don’t normally like Ross.  In my head Ross and Emily find each other again after the show ends.  

IMO, he was also good with Julie.  And at least the show didn't feel the need to turn Julie into the villain after they broke up.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

IMO, he was also good with Julie.  And at least the show didn't feel the need to turn Julie into the villain after they broke up.

And they even gave her a happy ending with Russ.

[Spartan Girl]

Let’s be real, Ross’s hasty and love-bombing courtship of Emily wasn’t any healthier the merry-go-round with Rachel.

[partofme]

29 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Let’s be real, Ross’s hasty and love-bombing courtship of Emily wasn’t any healthier the merry-go-round with Rachel.

I thought they were really cute together.    Ross and Rachel always make me cringe.  

[Bort]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

Ross hasn' tseen Ben since Emma was born.  Emily pops out a kid, Emma is history.

And then Janice was right!

[Crs97]

Ross and Monica got several decent partners outside the six:  Julie, Emily, Mona, Pete, Richard (which was a healthy relationship once you get past the age difference).  It never felt like the others fared as well.

[AgathaC]

Ross and Emily moved very fast, but I did think they worked well together. I never had a problem with Emily at all — in fact, I liked her (and was very annoyed when they made her a villain).

And now that you mention it, the Geller siblings did seem to have the best non-Friend relationships. I was always a fan of Richard.

[chitowngirl]

I read someplace years ago that Emily was supposed to have moved to NYC and try to make the marriage work, but HB was now pregnant so they had to scrap that. That’s the reason when she called, she was always in bed with the covers up, to hide the pregnancy.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

Ross and Monica got several decent partners outside the six:  Julie, Emily, Mona, Pete, Richard (which was a healthy relationship once you get past the age difference).  It never felt like the others fared as well.

Yeah, I was always kind of miffed that Rachel never got a single love interest that could be considered a real long term possibility, while Ross had several. Tag was the best she got. The rest were complete punch lines, i.e. the skittish divorced guy, Joshuaaaah, and the sister-lover. Not to mention Russ, Ross’s doppelgänger. 

[Fool to cry]

Dermot Mulruney came on as her boss and was just dropped with no explanation.

I wonder if it was foresight that made them write that problematic story of Phoebe's half brother Frank marry his twice his age high school teacher? Like Lisa had just gotten married and probsbly going to she would be pregnant but they didn't want to have Phoebe be a mom or hide it but If she were a surrogate to his brother's wife.... Like that's why he needed to be with someone older.

[chitowngirl]

1 hour ago, Fool to cry said:

Dermot Mulruney came on as her boss and was just dropped with no explanation.

I wonder if it was foresight that made them write that problematic story of Phoebe's half brother Frank marry his twice his age high school teacher? Like Lisa had just gotten married and probsbly going to she would be pregnant but they didn't want to have Phoebe be a mom or hide it but If she were a surrogate to his brother's wife.... Like that's why he needed to be with someone older.

I don’t think it was foresight, it was because Lisa was pregnant that they had to write something in. Luckily, Phoebe usually wore loose clothing that they could hide it for a while, but they had to do something, so they wrote something wacky.

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, Fool to cry said:

Dermot Mulruney came on as her boss and was just dropped with no explanation.

I wonder if it was foresight that made them write that problematic story of Phoebe's half brother Frank marry his twice his age high school teacher? Like Lisa had just gotten married and probsbly going to she would be pregnant but they didn't want to have Phoebe be a mom or hide it but If she were a surrogate to his brother's wife.... Like that's why he needed to be with someone older.

Dermot Murluney wasn't her boss, he was her replacement while she was on maternity leave. Or "baby vacation" as he called it.

[Bort]

If I remember correctly, Frank marrying Alice was supposed to be the last we ever saw of them. They had no intention of following up on them until Lisa Kudrow’s pregnancy gave the show runners a need to write it in. Rather creatively.