Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[statsgirl]

I think that depends on how you define "idealist".  If you think that it means someone who always thinks the best of people and sees them as their best selves, then I'd say no.

 

If you define "idealist" as someone who thinks that her plans will always work out, then yes.

Edited January 31, 2016 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

I guess I think of an idealist as someone who puts their own values and goals above what's realistic, basically someone who's impractical... In that sense yeah that is definitely Laurel (Sara's resurrection proved this). But I wonder how that's helpful to the team? Because that article implied that Laurel being an idealist brings something to the team and I'm not sure what. So I guess i was confused by the definition...

 

And I was thinking... A lot of people think that there's a lot more story to tell for Laurel and I was trying to think of what potential stories could come up for her in order for her to not be in the grave... Here are a few ideas

 

1. Use her lawyering skills more on the big baddies
2. Maybe have her grow closer to Oliver
3. Getting a new love interest
4. If it is Quentin who dies, then maybe his death would give her another arc, I just don't know what
5. Laurel could possibly get her own nemesis
6. Birds of Prey episodes here and there
7. Have her be team leader once in a while

 

IDK I can't really think of anything else... But Idk I don't think that this is enough for her to live on the show. Because...

 

1. Her being a lawyer usually never comes up and I think that her lawyering the big baddie will possibly be a 1 time thing because Damien isn't a villain that hides in the shadows. Everyone knows about him
2. I don't think this is much of a storyline for her
3. Getting a new love interest is also something that isn't exactly new... Look at Thea and her love interests... IDK if the writers would do it justice unless the person is a member of the team or knows Oliver's secret at the least (which he probably won't)
4. If Quentin dies, nothing about Laurel's journey would really change. She's already fighting for justice... What would Quentin's death do other than to push her harder (which really isn't anything new)?
5. Nemeses only last 1-2 episodes. What Arrow is doing that's smart for Diggle/Felicity is that their nemeses are either large organizations or estranged fathers (who could keep recurring and help deepen Felicity's character). IDK if they'd do anything like that for Laurel because she never had prior connections to large organizations. 
6. BoP episode... Been there done that. 
7. Again this isn't really an arc

[KirkB]

Well, the dictionary defines idealist as: 1. a person who cherishes or pursues high or noble principles, purposes, goals, etc.  2. a visionary or impractical person.  3. a person who represents things as they might or should be rather than as they are  4.a writer or artist who treats subjects imaginatively.  5. a person who accepts the doctrines of philosophical idealism, as by representing things in an ideal form, or as they might or should be rather than as they are.

 

As far as I can tell, the only one of those which might even remotely involve Laurel is 1. She does, or at least did, cherish the principles and purposes of the law, which is why she became a lawyer in the first place. But that clearly doesn't apply anymore since she spends most of her time wearing a mask and beating up people because she thinks the law is no longer working and/or no longer applies to her.

 

There isn't an actual idealist on the team.

[bethy]

My feeling is that the people who use " idealist" to describe Laurel are using it in the first sense. Though I don't see that at all on screen, especially now.

[bijoux]

Well, she has been impractical on multiple occasions.

[Primal Slayer]

I think they have done a decent job of having Laurel try to see the good in people, it isn't a constant thing but she's done it enough for it to kind of be her thing.

 

It is sad that they don't seem to be making any storyline out of DDs henchman that is keeping stabs on Laurel. That itself is good enough for a subplot for an episode.

[wonderwall]

Laurel just takes up screen time and adds zero value to the show and I thoroughly believe that her character is the reason we aren't seeing other characters interact. what??????OK, we all know that laurel is a character that has long been under-utilized, and many people do not like her because she is selfish but now she returns to the front of the series, and starts to become a real leader, she is as important as Diggle or felicity,she finally begins to have his place in the team,  only oliver is most important, I see things like that.

 

Meh. we all have different POVs. I'd hardly call LL a leader nor someone who's in the forefront of the series:. Here's how I see it:

 

• Laurel hasn't done anything significant this season other than to bring back Sara and help save Diggle/Thea/Felicity in 409 (but seriously, imo the only reason why she played a main role is because they had to take the other fighters away in order for her to be relevant)
• She hasn't really given any value to the team other than some comment here or there which Oliver/everyone else usually ignores
• Literally almost everything LL has done can easily be replaced by another member of the team
• It's nice to say that LL's a leader and all, but LL hasn't actually 'led' the team at all this season. She's been a team player, but not a leader because LL has never made a call or a decision. She's always followed other people's orders. Which, I actually like because she doesn't have experience like Oliver or Diggle. So yeah. Until I see evidence of any leadership from LL, this statement is actually rather false.

 

I wouldn't say Laurel's as important as Felicity/Diggle in the team because:

 

 

• Unlike Felicity, LL doesn't offer the team a unique skill they could use/the team would be lost without Felicity but they wouldn't be lost without LL
• Unlike Diggle, LL doesn't have the skill/emotional maturity/level headedness nor is she the moral compass (because when she tries to be she ends up sounding ridiculously hypocritical)
• Oliver values Diggle/Felicity's opinions far more than he values LL's opinion. It's just simply what we've seen. Felicity/Diggle have been on the team far longer, they have taken more hits, they have given their life to the cause far more and longer than LL ever has and that will always be the case as long as these characters live. IMO, if we were to rank importance it would be 1) Oliver/Diggle/Felicity 2)Laurel/Thea. 

 

Thea/Laurel are sidekicks. They offer nothing more other than being an extra body on the team. But out of the two of these ladies, it's Thea who's more relevant because of her relationship with Oliver and how far Oliver would go for his only living family member.

[kismet]

I do wonder if LL's first foray into leadership will be

418, which is I believe the episode after OQ is rumored to be in the hospital

. And that will then lead to her to make a mistake that winds up with her being in the grave. He first attempt at leadership will be an epic fail, unfortunately it will fall at a bad time when the Arrow Writers are all about having real consequences & deaths.

 

Timing never really was LL's thing.

Edited February 13, 2016 by kismet

[kismet]

The irony is that Laurel also has her own thing to do ... it's called Being A Lawyer.  It's ironic that on a superhero vs villains show, they can barely find a place to incorporate her day job as a lawyer.

I actually think being a lawyer on a superhero show is actually not that easy to write because most of the "villians" are never brought to justice. It works if the main character is the lawyer because then you are just showing his/her day job. But to squeeze it in for supporting characters's day job on a weekly basis is hard when it has little to do with the plot.

 

To be honest it probably would have made more sense to make LL the campaign manager if they wanted to integrate her, but they gave that job to TQ. A lot of campaigns are run by people familar with policy & law. And I guess they did try to do a love interest with Alex, even if its boring.

 

I'm surprised LL hasn't joined PT to become a corporate lawyer for company. She could help with patents, be shown in mtgs with FS. If they really wanted to integrate her they could just consolidate her profession with one of the other professional sets. Bonus- it would show 2 women interacting in professional way and would ace the Bechtel test probably every scene.

 

I do wonder if they are waiting for OQ to be mayor and then they can show her being in on civic meetings. But I doubt that is either realistic or interesting. I don't mind watching OQ give speeches. But I dread when he becomes mayor and I have to sit through city planning sessions.

 

Keeping her as ADA or DA just strands her in the middle of no-man's land. Because so rarely do they have court scenes anymore. And now that the show has done away with VOTW structure & realism (most of the time) there is no real way to integrate her easily into the plot in her capacity as a lawyer.

Edited February 16, 2016 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

It's also kinda hard to give her consistent lawyer things to do when she hasn't had a standing work set since S2. Which I think was part of the plan for the rise of Buckles. A lot less Laurel + a whole lot more Black Canary meant they didn't need to give Laurel a separate set for work.

 

Of course she can still be a lawyer without a set, but standing sets = writers automatically coming up with scenes that use that space.

[Lady Calypso]

It's odd, because Laurel the Lawyer was the one aspect I liked about her character, and the one that made sense. At least in season 1, when she was working at the DA's office, she was doing SOMETHING and it made sense. I think, even though her character is majorly flawed, her having an actual office set to go to benefited her character. And it ended up benefiting other characters, like Thea (remember when she had to work at the DA's office because of the car crash/Vertigo thing? Remember when LL actually helped get Thea out of that mess by offering her community service there?). 

 

They definitely have not utilized Laurel at all this season. The only time they have was to bring back Sara, and that actually made her character look BAD due to everyone telling her not to do it, and then she did it, so Oliver had to save the day. Not that I mind less Laurel, because I think that she doesn't fit on the show anymore, but it's just odd that we've gone from a leading lady in season 1 to barely a supporting character by season 4. And the fact that they don't use her possible greatest strength (being a lawyer, which I guess she does ok with) is even more odd. 

Even though I know she'll get her own lawyer episode in episode 16 (?), it's still just one episode of her doing her job.

. Honestly, I'm ok with her getting less to do, because KC hasn't been able to sell the crap storylines she was given. At least, I haven't been able to buy them. I still think Tommy Merlyn and the DA office in season 1 worked to her strengths and those two were her best assets, so it's a shame both had to be destroyed (kill two birds with one Undertaking) and that's when LL went completely downhill for me, character wise. 

[dtissagirl]

I legit think in the eyes of the writers, she's now full time Black Canary, and very occasionally she'll be Laurel [which includes the lawyer thing] if the plot needs it. It's why she has no personal life, no friends, no work space, no co-workers, etc. Those are Laurel things.

 

It makes sense -- Laurel was incredibly rejected by the audience and media alike for two full seasons. Black Canary? Not so much. It doesn't give her a storyline [she has no villain of her own, she has no setbacks to being a superhero, she has no particular cause that drives her, etc], nor it gives her a significant narrative role in Oliver's journey, but the comic book name turned out to be less damaging than the civilian name, so: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[statsgirl]

I actually think being a lawyer on a superhero show is actually not that easy to write because most of the "villians" are never brought to justice. It works if the main character is the lawyer because then you are just showing his/her day job. But to squeeze it in for supporting characters's day job on a weekly basis is hard when it has little to do with the plot.

I would have thought the same thing about having a cop on a superhero show but they've had no problem integrating Joe and Eddie and Patty on The Flash and Quentin's had a lot to do on Arrow this season.

 

I don't think she even needs her own set outside of Quentin's police station.  Laurel's scenes with Ray in season 3 and defending Oliver when Quentin arrested him showed her in some of her best light.  She can be getting warrants, working with the police, digging up information Felicity can't get.

 

I legit think in the eyes of the writers, she's now full time Black Canary, and very occasionally she'll be Laurel [which includes the lawyer thing] if the plot needs it. It's why she has no personal life, no friends, no work space, no co-workers, etc. Those are Laurel things.

I think you're right.  She's there when Sara needs to be made undead, she's there for Thea or when Oliver or Diggle need a pep talk but there's very little that is just Laurel.

 

Maybe they can give her an off-screen love interest. It would be nice if she had a life apart from the Team.

[Chaser]

A problem I see is Laurel and Lance have very similar roles, either one of them could serve as the civilian justice connection. You could use Laurel more but than what is left for Quentin to do on the show? Laurel at least has the whole Buckles thing.

[kismet]

Cops and Vigilante Superheroes are the same branch criminal justice system. So them working in tandem to chase down leads & take down bad guys makes for fun scenes & plot overlap. The problem is most shows don't bother to prosecute said bad guys unless its a procedural structure. Since mid s2, Arrow has changed the structure away from procedural VOTW to a season long narrative story with mythology and building up to climatic showdowns.

Therefore no one really cares about warrants or due process on a Superhero Show. So LL has been pushed out of her character's professional role in the story because it's boring and doesn't move plot.

Flash doesn't have a problem integrating cops because BA is part of law enforcement group in his day job, so its only natural that he has other cops around him. Also BA is solo out there so he needs the cops as back up.

If they want LL to be a lawyer they should just make her PTs lawyer. It's probably why Lucy Lane on supergirl joined Catco. It makes it easier to integrate her into the day to day plot because there is a reason for her to be at the office.

LL legal aid lawyer worked in s1 to parallel OQs journey. S2 as ADA worked for Moira's trial & her fall from grace. S3 should have shown her frustrated with the system which us why she hits the streets. And s4 she should just move into private practice, since theoretically she might be breaking code of conduct/ethics of public ADA with her nighttime activities. Also now way she can realistically maintain both her day & night job.

[statsgirl]

While it seemed like a good idea, I don't think Lucy Lane being Catco's lawyer is all that helpful (possibly because Lucy seems superfluous to the show except to keep James from asking Kara out).

 

But I agree, if they're not going to use Laurel in her ADA role, being in private practice would open up not only being PT's legal counsel but also Candidate Oliver Queen's and anything else they want to use her for, such as the lawyer Diggle calls when he and Andy get arrested (just making things up here). 

 

And as well as taking out the conflict of interest problems with her ADA job, it means she can be available for Team Arrow at any time instead of having to do ADA stuff when they need her.

 

I know real lawyers don't work like that, but neither do real business people.

[Primal Slayer]

They really should have Laurel reopen CNRI a n d get back to basics but they want everyone to be top dogs in their jobs which can be a little annoying.

[kismet]

If Quentin does dies, I half expect them to make LL police commissioner through some loophole because then they get the police connection without needing to recast anyone.

[Delphi]

I'm rewatching select episodes of season one because I have nothing better to do. But, damn, I enjoy Laurel so much more earlier on. Don't get me wrong, she and Oliver have no chemistry. Yes, she has bad character moments but those are mostly her negative moments with Oliver.

But as a character she is so much more likable. Especially with Tommy. I just finished Trust But Verify. And she had great scenes. And in Vertigo, she shows up to Thea's hearing even though she doesn't have to.

This post does not have a point except to mention that I'm remembering why I actually actively enjoyed her in season one and I think I could if they gave her decent character moments and not Plot! and Comics! I could be enjoying her so much more.

[SonofaBiscuit]

For your reading enjoyment...

 

‘Arrow’: 4 Reasons We Hope Laurel Lance Aka Black Canary Doesn’t Die In Season 4 [POLL]

Fashion & Style  Feb. 20, 2016

http://www.fashionnstyle.com/articles/80711/20160220/arrow-4-reasons-we-hope-laurel-lance-aka-black-canary-die-season-4-poll.htm

 

Goodness.  I disagree with this article SO much.

 

"4. Laurel Is Just Starting To Come Into Her Own As A Superhero"

According to the EPs, Laurel's a fully formed hero now.  As this season has confirmed, they seem to have no intention of progressing her storyline, hero or otherwise.

 

"3. Quentin Lance Would Never Recover"

Eh, sure he would.  It was a long road, but he recovered when Sara died.  He's stronger now and has Donna, Sara, and even Team Arrow to support him.  It would be devastating for him, but he would recover.

 

" 2. Black Canary Is A Popular Character"

*In the comic books.*  TV show Black Canary has minor screentime, no character development, no narrative function, and pretty much no storyline.  If the character is so popular that killing her would tank the ratings, I have to believe that the writers would use her more effectively.

 

"1. Kate Cassidy Is A Fantastic Actress" 

Yeah, I completely disagree, but even if you agree that Laurel shouldn't die because KC is a fantastic actress...why should anyone who is just as good an actress as her (or better) die?

[Primal Slayer]

The writers also said that this would be a lighter season so WM saying that BC is fully formed doesn't mean much to me. 

 

While I agree that Quentin would recover, how redundent is it for him to lose a daughter? I know they love to re-adapt their own storylines but it's old.

 

She has no major storyline this season since the writers think that they can only tell limited storylines for their whole cast every season which is just bad writing. But I think she has had some character development even with the minor screen time she has been allowed and her narrative function has finally come into the play so it would be a shame to lose it so quickly.

 

They think she is a great actress and just don't want to see her killed off, just as others don't want their faves killed off. I think it has been said about other actors in the show how great they are and how much the show would suffer from losing them. This is no different.

[dtissagirl]

even with the minor screen time she has been allowed and her narrative function has finally come into the play so it would be a shame to lose it so quickly.

 

WHAT narrative function? Where? When?

[Primal Slayer]

Oh you know, the one where they had her become the teams "conscious" 

[Chaser]

But does that count if they ignore her? Or if her action contradict her words?

[Starfish35]

She hasn't become the team's conscience. *confused*

[dtissagirl]

Oh you know, the one where they had her become the teams "conscious" 

 

I giggled because "conscious" means "awake", so it really is like she's a robot that's only conscious part time, innit.

 

Sorry.

 

But her being the team's conscience -- that hasn't happened. Laurel hasn't had a narrative moment of her morality, or her insight, being the thing that lead the team into deciding to do something better. Sure, the other characters talk to her about their problems, but she doesn't solve them.

 

She's not even Quentin's conscience, which would make sense for Laurel in Quentin's problems with DD and HIVE. But the narrative didn't give that to her. They gave it to Oliver and Felicity.

Edited February 23, 2016 by dtissagirl

[wonderwall]

OK, sorry to rewind this thing but a lot of folks here have posted why they think Laurel should be the one in the grave. I'm curious to hear from people who think she shouldn't be in the grave. I'd love to hear actual reasons beyond "She's the Black Canary" or "Because comics." What does Laurel bring to the team? What does KC bring to the show? And lastly, should this be discussed here or in the Laurel thread. It's not really spoiler but more of a character discussion.

A few things LL/KC bring to the show:

• Her lawyering skills (Oliver catches 'em, Laurel cooks 'em)
• A BoP redux (Maybe bring Lady Shiva into the mix)
• Her relationship with the Police (Quentin) is far stronger than anyone else's on the team
• The show spent so much time building her into BC in season 3 that killing her off may seem like a waste
• If her Canary Cry was more effective, she'd be totally not useless in the field
• KCs acting has improved this season especially in the last episode
• She's a link to Oliver's past in a way no one else on the show is
• Laurel hasn't really had her own nemesis yet so the show could incorporate one for her

 

That's all I can think of...

[kismet]

But

-They don't really use her lawyering skills

-Just keep Quentin, he already knows how to get to the lair.

-Spent just about as much time on Ray's journey in s2

-Canary Bombs make more sense in how they use LL in the field

-KC's acting has improved because she needs to find a new job

-Everyone is a link to something with OQ, but his past is something that they are moving away from and not to

-They had 4 seasons to give her a nemesis, I think it's a little too late

 

OK-

-BOP Redux would be cool, but unlikely

 

I really can't think of any really good reason to keep her on the show. I'm not eager about her being killed, because it seems a little extreme. But Arrow likes to kill people, so what can you do. I'd be fine if she moved away and never came back. But I'm opposed to someone else being in the casket. If a casket is how she has to go, than so be it.

Edited February 27, 2016 by kismet

[Lady Calypso]

You know what? I'm going to say something a little positive about Katie Cassidy. Not Laurel, but Katie herself. She's actually a very pretty woman. I think that when she has her hair solely brunette or solely blonde, she looks her best. Ok, the blonde is debatable, I guess.

 

   

 

Even here, in season 1, she looks good:

 

 

When they styled her hair like this on Gossip Girl:

 

 

She actually looks great. But for some reason, late season 1/starting season 2, they styled her hair so badly, plus it looks like she has gotten Botox or a lot of work done on her face, so it's lost that natural appeal. I think her having those weird highlights makes her look a lot older. I wish we got her dark brown hair back this season. She doesn't look good as a blonde with highlights. It's like Oliver with that weird facial hair in LOT (I know it's a homage to the comic GA). It just doesn't work.

 

[wonderwall]

I agree. Katie Cassidy is a beautiful woman. I like her a lot more as a brunette though.And to be fair, she's done some good work on Arrow, I think she's knocked some of her scenes out of the park, her contfontation with Oliver in S2, when Laurel told Quentin that Sara was dead, Laurel and Quentin's heart to heart in 415, Laurel with the shark in 302...

 

Even though KC wasn't a fit for LL, I hope she finds a role that suits her in the future. 

[Delphi]

I think it's very obvious that Katie has had some work done, which, fuck Hollywood for making her think that was needed. She's still pretty but she doesn't look as soft which I guess is always the end result of plastic surgery. But brunette is the hair color for Katie. I agree with that.

[Primal Slayer]

 

Ahhh Ella, Katies best role to date, it's her definitive character for me. 

[Starfish35]

From Behind The Scenes thread:

I maintain Laurel did work. But oh noes she wasn't all sunshine or smiling she was hashtag the worst. How dare a female character be cold and angry.

I don't believe that at all. My favorite female character is Aeryn Sun, and she spent a lot of her first episodes being cold and hostile. And granted I don't know what the fandom was like, but I never got any sense that she was unpopular or disliked.

The glaring difference is that Aeryn was played by a talented actress (Claudia Black) who could portray all the layers underneath Aeryn's hostile exterior. Katie Cassidy is not even remotely in that class.

[dtissagirl]

Obviously Laurel worked for a number of people in the audience, or else she'd have zero fans ever. But she didn't work for the people that mattered before the show premiered, which made them scramble to find alternatives to her THREE MONTHS before the show ever aired an episode.

 

And after the show premiered, she got rejected by a really significant part of the audience, proving the fact that the creatives really really needed that alternative.

Edited March 8, 2016 by dtissagirl

[SonofaBiscuit]

I maintain Laurel did work. But oh noes she wasn't all sunshine or smiling she was hashtag the worst. How dare a female character be cold and angry.

 

Many many people have detailed their reasons for disliking Laurel, and no, it doesn't all boil down to her being cold and angry.  There's the complete black hole of chemistry between KC and SA (which was a major fucking problem since one of Laurel's main roles in the show was supposed to be "love interest to hero").  There's the highly questionable "acting" put forth by KC.  There's the fact that KC has no understanding of her character at all (stating that she's in a love triangle with Oliver and Felicity...the (no spoilers) twins thing.  TWINS!!!).  Lots of other things: she always seems to escape any sort of consequences (she had a DUI and stole her dad's drugs...did she lose her job?  NO!), she's unethical as hell (blackmail ring a bell?), she's a liar (failed to mention Sara's death for months), she's a terrible person (chaining her sister in her basement), etc.   

Edited March 8, 2016 by SonofaBiscuit

[apinknightmare]

This was the first instance of flashback fail, IMO. I really didn't want to watch Laurel's (completely valid) anger toward Oliver while I spent half of each episode watching Oliver paying for the mistake she was angry at him for making in every possible way he could. It made it difficult for me to be in her corner. I do think they unintentionally set her up for failure there.

Edited March 8, 2016 by apinknightmare

[wingster55]

Back in the first season I meant. After that they just stopped caring after they got Felicity who (for s1) did very little more than babble even when it made 0'sense.
And I do think her anger and lack of smiling was a big reason. [Edited by mod.]

Edited March 9, 2016 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[wonderwall]

I maintain Laurel did work. But oh noes she wasn't all sunshine or smiling she was hashtag the worst. How dare a female character be cold and angry.

Just because another pair was shown or thought to have chemistry doesn't mean much. Not the first time incest has been noted on a show as a couple with chemistry.

 

I feel like this is a really unfair statement because it oversimplifies our opinions (at least my opinion) about Laurel. I'll outline a few things that made Laurel's personality unpalatable for me. Laurel never really had any appealing distinctive traits unlike other characters...:

Laurel's main positive characteristics are usually ones that other characters possess, thus the good things about her weren't unique:

• Strong: Everyone on this show is strong
• Good: So is everyone else
• Courageous (apparently): Felicity has shown more courage throughout the series IMO because it's been shown that she overcame her own fears for the sake of the mission whereas the same hasn't been done for Laurel.
• Kind: Well so are Felicity and Diggle

Or her traits are usually contradicted by her actions:

• Moral: Pretty sure moral people don't blackmail others
• I think KC once said that Laurel's 'Angelic': Well it didn't seem that way when she told Oliver she wished he stayed in hell a lot longer
• Kind: Kind people don't string along others
• Professional: That flew right out the window when she brought up her personal issues in front of her client

And what's left that sets her apart from the other characters are all her least likable characteristics:

• Blames everyone else for her problems
• Thinks before she acts
• Never listens to anyone

 

That was partially the reason why I never connected with her as a character. And unfortunately, the writers never went back to basics with her and just kept on building on the rocky foundation that was her character. 

 

Some of the other reasons why I never really connected with her and it has nothing to do with her anger: 

• I wasn't a fan of how she treated Tommy
• I never liked how wishy washy she was with Oliver. First she said she hated him but she spent all her time with him
• I wasn't a fan of her 'professionalism'. Like when she brought her baggage in front of a client
• Even in season 2 the writers were writing Laurel as wishy washy in the sense that first she was all about helping the underprivileged, now she works at the DAs office? Was there an explanation for this change? 
• KC failed to give her character any layers or nuance (at least this is my opinion)

 

It's kind of unfair to simplify why people don't like Laurel because they didn't like how she was hostile. That may have been a part of it, but certainly not all of it. 

Edited March 9, 2016 by wonderwall

[kismet]

LL definitely failed as the LI. It's debatable as to whether she failed as BC, but its pretty definitive that she did not succeed as BC.

 

I think LL worked as LL. So in S1 when she was LL, she worked to a certain degree. The problem is the writers had no idea how to write LL after their original plans fell apart. And then like people mentioned they kept on building upon a fractured foundation. If they had been willing to part with their insistence about who they believe LL was supposed to be, they might have had a shot beyond s1. But what they keep on telling us about who LL, is never translated onto the screen or into the script. S2-S4 were just a writers exercise in trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

 

I definitely do put some of the failure of LL translating to the masses on KC. Whether its her own interpretation or she just refuses to see the bigger picture. But there is distinctive difference from KC's head canon to what the show's canon is. From her interviews, it's clear that she has a vision of the show and the character, that seems very different from what the show is producing.

[Sakura12]

As a Non-Olicity shipper they are definitely not the reason I don't like Laurel. Laurel's issues are with her character not with anyone else. She was a terribly written character from the start. 

 

The only time I was excited about LL as the Black Canary was in the pilot when Tommy said her full name (which is now associated with the death curse) it all went down hill from there. I keep seeing people say she was better in Season 1 but I don't remember it that way for me. I remember being bored by her and waiting for her scenes to be over so I could back to the show. She was similar to the flashbacks of the current season of Arrow. I thought she treated Tommy horribly and she didn't seem to be that great or useful as a Lawyer. The finale of Season 1 was when I started actively hate her and never came back from that. 

 

Sara came on as a character that we only knew as the bitch that cheated with her sister's boyfriend than died. That was her introduction. However CL came on not only being a badass she managed to give Sara a warmth and a vulnerability that made most people like me feel for her. She was nice and polite to Felicity and Diggle despite living on island for a couple years than going to be an assassin.

 

While Laurel as been all hard edges and blank emotions that have actually gotten worse as the series progressed. I can't feel for someone that acts like a robot. 

[statsgirl]

I think one of the big problems with the character of Laurel is that I never saw her as vulnerable.  She had every reason for me to be sympathetic to her but from her first scene (turning off the television that everyone else was watching) to confronting Oliver by saying she wished he had rotten on the island for a lot longer than 5 years, she was always aggressive and self-righteous.  I think the first time I felt any liking towards her was when Quentin arrested Oliver and Laurel agreed to be his lawyer.

 

In contrast

 

. 

Sara came on as a character that we only knew as the bitch that cheated with her sister's boyfriend than died. That was her introduction. However CL came on not only being a badass she managed to give Sara a warmth and a vulnerability that made most people like me feel for her. She was nice and polite to Felicity and Diggle despite living on island for a couple years than going to be an assassin.

I guess we'll never know if it was a fail of the writing or the acting or a combination of both.

 

And I do think her anger and lack of smiling was a big reason. [Edited by mod.]

I thought that playing Thea in s1 was a thankless task but Willa Holland made me understand her, if not feel sympathy for her.  (In season 3, I wanted Thea to own her own arc instead of playing fourth fiddle to Malcolm, Oliver and Ra's and that's before she knew about Felicity.)  I never felt that for Laurel, not even before Felicity arrived on the scene.

Edited March 9, 2016 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[wonderwall]

Back in the first season I meant. After that they just stopped caring after they got Felicity who (for s1) did very little more than babble even when it made 0'sense.

And I do think her anger and lack of smiling was a big reason. [Edited by mod.]

 

[Edited by mod.] I never cared for Laurel ever since episode 1. I quit the show by episode 9 regardless of Felicity being on the series because I felt like I knew what direction the show would take:

 

• More Laurel (and I just didn't care for her at all and was bordering on dislike for the character and it had nothing to do with Felicity)
• Oliver/Laurel/Tommy love triangle which I hated and honestly really disliked Lauriver from the get go

 

Which... NOPE. Didn't want to sign onto that.Of course, Laurel isn't the only reason I quit the show, but she was partially the reason. The other reason was because I wasn't a fan of the dour tone of the show, something I believe OTA fixed for me. OTA brought a different side of Oliver out and made the tone of the series more dynamic instead of it just being misery porn 24/7 (and this is part of the reason why I hated S3). And it's something Laurel's character failed to do and I partially blame the acting. 

 

And to be honest, the only reason why I'm 'gung ho' about Laurel now is because she's so far in the background I rarely ever notice her. She hasn't really done anything in 4B... I'm sure you missed the colored commentary in 4A though :p

Edited March 9, 2016 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[bijoux]

I keep seeing people say she was better in Season 1 but I don't remember it that way for me. 

 

I don't think the character was any better, but I in retrospect I do feel KC was more present in her performance. 

[ComicFan777]

The premise the writers set up for Laurel is supposed to make us sympathetic to Laurel because Oliver cheated on her with countless women and left on a sex cruise with her sister.  And yet, I found it hard to really respect her or try to understand her, mainly because she didn't seem like a good person at all. 

 

It bothered me that she never seemed sorry for anything that she did. If anyone tells her to not do something, she goes ahead and does it anyways.  She's always absolutely sure of every single one of her reckless decisions, even when it horribly affects other people.  Laurel always came across as self-righteous and yet, she even used blackmail to get what she wanted. She didn't want to tell Oliver that Sara was on the loose killing people because she didn't want to be judged - come one, how selfish can you be?

 

Laurel blamed everyone else for her problems.  She hunted down the Arrow and tried to get him arrested because she blamed him for Tommy's death.  I think she even blamed Sara for stealing her life in one of her drunken rants. 

 

One of the things that this show generally does really well is demonstrate the depth of how much characters care about others through family (ie. Oliver and Thea), but I think they failed when it came to Laurel.  She didn't seem to like Sara very much and just wanted to be Sara.  After Sara's death, Laurel pretended to be Sara and lied to her father about Sara's death.
    
When KC's acting choice stems from her headcannon that the love of Laurel's life will always be Ollie - it just makes Laurel seem pathetic, having so little respect for herself, to still be in love with a man who is clearly in love with someone else and whom she has had such a horrible history with.  How can I respect Laurel if she doesn't respect herself?

 

The list goes on...these things made Laurel very unlikeable, none of which have anything to do with her being angry or cold.  It has everything to do with who she is as a person.  I think a hero has to be brave and have good heart and Laurel's actions/choices never showed me that, so she failed as hero to me, too.

Edited March 9, 2016 by ComicFan777

[dtissagirl]

I don't need a character to be portrayed as likable for me to like them. I don't need them to be good, or righteous, or have high morals either, for me to love them, and enjoy their presence onscreen. Some of my favorite characters of all time are awful messed up people, and I love them -- not in a "love to hate" way, but truly madly deeply love them, consider them my fictional family, and root for them all the same, even while I'm aware they're awful.

 

My main requirements to deeply love a fictional character are --

 

1. they need to fascinate me, so that I want to see MORE of them. I need to miss them the second their scenes end.

 

2. their storyline needs to entertain the hell out of me. I need to feel that OH MY GOD WHAT HAPPENS NEXT feeling about whatever journey they're on.

 

That's it. Laurel has failed me in both cases. From the pilot I've been bored by her, and relived when her scenes end so that I can stop looking at her and being bored by her. And she's never ever had a storyline that I enjoyed, or looked forward to, or wanted to see more of. On the contrary.

 

And obviously what's she like, or how she behaves influences those things, but it's not the fact that she's self-centered and self-righteous that I have a problem with. I love a bunch of self-centered fictional assholes. The problem is that Laurel's self-centeredness and self-righteousness either bores the hell out of me, or makes me feel like I'm having a root canal while watching.

Edited March 9, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Scribbles]

....

 

I guess we'll never know if it was a fail of the writing or the acting or a combination of both.

 

....

I think it was a failure in casting.  That is not to say KC is bad.  Arrow was my first time seeing her, but not my first time encountering Dinah Lance or BC.  When I saw the pilot, I was thrown off by the contrast.  Again, that is not to throw negatives at KC.  If you read any BC comics and apply adjectives to describe BC or her alter ego, they just don't jive with what is onscreen.  Had I been on the casting team, I would have looked for someone less modelish and more athletic.  I would have been looking for spunk, quick wit, lots of body and facial expressiveness.  BC needs an edginess that is just biting enough to pack a punch (verbally in dialogue and physically) without crossing that line to be caustic. 

[Sakura12]

Had I been on the casting team, I would have looked for someone less modelish and more athletic.  

 

Like this.

 

 

The CW only looks for model figures. So KC fit that role, but that was about it. She was completely miscast for this show. She's been decent in other things I've seen her. Playing a super hero is just in her wheelhouse. Either is playing someone nice apparently. Her other roles she was always playing bitchy characters. Which if they played to KC's strengths and owned Laurel being like that. I might have actually liked her. Telling me that Laurel is sweet and caring was showing me a huge disconnect since that's not how I was seeing KC playing Laurel, 

Edited March 10, 2016 by Sakura12

[wingster55]

But why is playing someone nice and sweet (which she can do) a necessity?

And why does her not doing all the stunts a necessity? Sure Caity can but she fails in the acting department which is way more important.

[looptab]

Because Laurel is being written as someone supposedly nice and caring, and KC fails to deliver that. I'm not so hung up on her inability to do stunts, that's not a must for me. Though the fact that they use doubles has never been so apparent before S3, when she started having more stunts and it's really evident.

Edited March 11, 2016 by looptab

[wingster55]

I really haven't noticed it too much re: stunts.

Laurel...has been nice to characters not named Oliver quite often so she can "pull it off" (which goe back to my original point I think)