Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[JenMD]

slayer2, I have seen others mention that Cassidy lost weight on the show for her drug/drinking arc.  The main reason that I could never get behind that explanation was because she didn't really seem very invested in the show for most of the second season.  She did practically no promotion of the show until the very end.  If she couldn't even muster up the enthusiasm to talk about the show, I just couldn't imagine her caring enough to go so far as altering her physical appearance for it.  Plus, she seems to have no problems talking about bulking up to become Black Canary, so I would have thought she would have talked about losing weight for her role if that's what she did.  Just my take, I'm sure we'll never know for sure since she probably won't ever discuss it.

This is why I don't think the weight loss was for the role.  If an actor is going to go to extremes for a role, the show/actor/press is going to talk about it.  Sure the producers talked about the arc in general, but neither they nor the press, that I saw, talked anything about KC working to look the part and that's totally the kind of media attention a show/movie goes for when an actor goes to extremes.  But also, I can only remember Quentin mentioning concern over Laurel's health once (in the police station?), but that's it as far as it got mentioned on screen.  Seems an awful lot of work to go through for so little mention.  Honestly, it never even occurred to me that's what it could have been on purpose until late in the season when someone threw that theory out there.

[quarks]

Slayer2, I completely agree with you that Laurel has been through hell, what with losing the on again/off again ex/best friend, her parents' divorce, multiple kidnappings, losing her job, and finding out that her other best friend has been lying to her for over a year. I also think that retreating to drugs/alcohol under the circumstances is very understandable and realistic. That I don't have a problem with.

 

I think the issue is threefold:

 

1. On any other show, I'd be going, holy (*)()(* Laurel. Unfortunately, Laurel is on a show where with the exceptions of Fyers, Quentin's partner, Kate Spencer, the people that keep appearing on the local news, and now Amanda Waller, pretty much everyone who has appeared in more than one episode has been through the same or far, far worse. Fyers, Quentin's partner and Kate Spencer are now dead, and the news guys don't really count as characters. 

 

(Wait: China White and the Triad haven't seemed to suffer much, but they aren't exactly developed characters.)

 

It's not just Sara and Oliver, either. It's Thea, who has now lost both parents (and had to watch one murdered right in front of her; talk about traumatic. I would be a gibbering mess after that), and lost her job and boyfriend and found out that her biological father is a mass murderer. It's Roy, who came from poverty and a troubled home, and lost eleven friends to the Undertaking (eleven friends? Again, I can't even imagine). It's Sin, who lost both parents and found out her friend was murdered and the police weren't investigating. It's Felicity, abandoned by her father and now kidnapped three times and shot once - granted, all while out on missions, but still - and who almost died trying to save the Glades from an earthquake machine. It's Walter, whose best friend died, and who was later kidnapped by his own wife. It's Laurel's best friend Joanna, whose brother died violently - so traumatically that Joanna ended up having to quit her job and leave to emotionally recover. It's Diggle, who is still dealing with his brother's death and Afghanistan. We see minor characters dealing with hell all the time.

 

And yet we had Laurel telling us that no one had been through what she had - in the same episode where Roy talked about losing eleven friends and is fighting the drug he was injected with against his will. That's...offputting.  And these other characters, for the most part, are not turning to drugs and alcohol (though I'm not sure that Thea's method of dealing is much better, honestly.)

 

2. Some of these characters are victims, some not, but those who aren't tend to accept responsibility for what happened to them. Laurel ends up in an awkward place between these two parts, often for plot reasons. In the rewatch, for instance, I noticed that in the second episode, Laurel gets her apartment broken into by the Triad. Very traumatic, and Laurel's obviously upset by it. 

 

And yet by the very next episode - which happens just a week later in the show - Oliver as the Hood is just coming right into her apartment through the windows. She hasn't locked them. She has picked up a gun, which yay, but at the same time, in this particular case? She certainly shares responsibility for the trauma of having someone else break into her house.

 

This is an ongoing pattern with Laurel: a number of her problems are self-inflicted, and yet, more than any other character except Slade, she blames everyone else for her issues.  Meanwhile, we see Oliver, Sara and other minor characters not only accept responsibility for their own mistakes, but blame themselves for decisions made by others.  Dinah Lance blames herself for Sara's decision to get on that boat - which was in no way Dinah's fault.  Laurel....doesn't do this.

 

3. Laurel tends to be very, very judgemental, when she's not just acting superior to other people. That makes it hard for me to like her.  It's not that I don't think she has reasons to feel superior - she works hard, she's earned a law degree, for the most part she isn't running around killing and torturing people - but at the same time, and again, in the context of this show, I'm not sure she's earned the right to feel or act superior to other characters. When she pulls it on Oliver, granted, it's because she doesn't know what Oliver's really doing. But when she pulls this on Joanna, I kinda want to cringe - since Joanna has been to law school too, and Joanna is pretty much Laurel's voice of reason, and, in my opinion, is often shown to be kinder, more sympathetic, and more considerate than Laurel. 

[bluebonnet]

I wish they would have gone full steam with her addiction story.  Addiction is most certainly a believable crucible/island experience.  I could have easily believed an addiction story with Laurel because she's been presented as nearly obsessive about things she goes for and also the type who generally has an addictive personality.  The problem is the writers merely told us she had an addiction and failed to show us that she had an addiction and that the disease had reached a rock bottom point where the only way out was to change.  Focusing on a single glass of wine when we've already seen Laurel drink wine when she wasn't 'addicted' or a single pill from a prescription bottle doesn't make an addiction story.  It felt like a mockery of addiction. 

 

It was a further mockery when we have witnessed the results of other characters' crucible/island experiences.  Helena became a drive-by shooter who cared little about collateral damage, Mckenna was so angry and broken she left the force and Starling City, Roy became someone who wanted to help people, Quentin became obsessed with his work, Thea first turned her life in a different direction and then later left Starling City with her bio daddy, Oliver became a vigilante, etc.  There was a specific change within these character as a result of a crucible/island experience, even for those characters we didn't witness undergo the experience or change like Helena or Quentin.  We see no discernible change with Laurel as a result of her alleged crucible.  We didn't see her legitimately drunk or high.  She is the same person she was before she was allegedly addicted.  She's still making decisions that cause other people to need to put their lives on the line in order to save her.  She's still a lawyer using the same tactics she was using before.  She still not taking advice she's given like, you know, staying out of major danger zones.

 

Could we have felt true sympathy for Laurel for falling apart after Tommy's death?  Yes, of course, even though she was portrayed as feeling no more than lukewarm about Tommy in season 1, I would have definitely felt for her if they had made any attempt to actually sell it in season 2.  While most people have no personal experience dealing with a returned shipwrecked individual, I'm willing to bet that nearly everyone knows of at least one person in their lives who has dealt with addiction.  It should have made Laurel one of the most relateable characters on the show.  Instead it comes off more offensive than anything because it's a mockery to compare Laurel's glass of wine with chinese take-out to our aunt/uncle/mom/dad/sibling/friend/our own/etc's life totally falling apart because their focus is all on the source of their addiction. 

[icandigit]

I have to be honest. I don't remember any of this storyline to even comment on it. I just wasn't really invested in it. They had already done something similar and more entertaining with Thea.  I just couldn't care.

[Tangerine]

This is why I don't think the weight loss was for the role.  If an actor is going to go to extremes for a role, the show/actor/press is going to talk about it. 

 

The other thing is while she looked frightfully skinny, she didn't really look all that haggard on screen. Her makeup and hair were still immaculate. I know this is a TV show and it's important that characters still look appealing on camera, but the show really seemed to put in half the effort in every department where the whole addiction storyline was concerned. There's a character who's an alcoholic on a British soap opera I watch, Coronation Street, and when he's off the wagon you can tell he's very clearly off the wagon, even if he's putting up a front for everybody else. 

Edited May 31, 2014 by Tangerine

[slayer2]

This is why I don't think the weight loss was for the role. If an actor is going to go to extremes for a role, the show/actor/press is going to talk about it. Sure the producers talked about the arc in general, but neither they nor the press, that I saw, talked anything about KC working to look the part and that's totally the kind of media attention a show/movie goes for when an actor goes to extremes. But also, I can only remember Quentin mentioning concern over Laurel's health once (in the police station?), but that's it as far as it got mentioned on screen. Seems an awful lot of work to go through for so little mention. Honestly, it never even occurred to me that's what it could have been on purpose until late in the season when someone threw that theory out there.

But that's an assumption, it's entirely possible that she did it without talking ad nauseum about. The press and everyone associated with the show have been all over EBR and her canonization that they haven't really been paying Katie Cassidy much mind to ask. All I know is I've seen a lot of her work and I don't think it's a coincidence that she gained weight to play season 1 Laurel then lost it for season 2 and is getting buff for season 3 Laurel. She's a pretty dedicated actress in my experience. I agree she's been given some sporadic writing wrt the drug/drinking storyline but I think she's doing the best with it that anybody could. I also know that she wasn't even that thin as a fashion obsessed PR rep on Melrose so I wouldn't be surprised if given the physical dedication people have on this show she lost all that weight. She now has a six pack so this strengthens my belief even more.

ETA KC isn't in charge of the makeup they put on her but she is in charge of her body and to me her weight loss matched the marked change in Laurel's personality from confident and capable to lost and seemingly hopeless. The change is extraordinarily prevalent when you're marathoning the episodes.

Edited May 31, 2014 by slayer2

[Sakura12]

They never really showed us Laurel being unable to handle everything, they showed just us her drinking a glass of wine in her apartment and taking one pill. They didn't show me Laurel staring mournfully at Tommy's picture or show me the effects the drinking was having on her. I think they showed us her looking messed up once and than after that everything was fine and she was back to looking how she usually looks. 

 

They didn't show me enough to make me see that Laurel was suffering. That whole storyline was an afterthought. Which is why I can't buy that was her Island and/or crucible. Not when they showed us the hell Sara and Oliver went through, almost getting gang raped, almost getting shot in the head, watching other people get shot in the head, sleeping in crashed airplanes, being tortured and having to kill people. All Laurel's storyline showed me is how weak she is compared to them. Yes, she went through some terrible things but Oliver and Sara went through so much worse and didn't curl up on the floor and give up, they hardened and became stronger. They didn't have the luxury to dull their suffering and they were constantly suffering. 

 

So why would I want a Black Canary that if something bad happens and she can't deal with it, she might just give up and drink instead of to do something about it. Especially since she can't really learn from her mistake if she didn't really face any lasting consequences for her actions. She got her job back and is back to the same place she was before. 

 

Oliver and Sara can never be the people they were before. They are still suffering for what happened to them and choices they made. They lost their souls, their humanity and are still trying to get them back. Slade was there because of Oliver, he lost his mother because Slade wanted to make him suffer. Sara went back to the place she tried to kill herself to not have to go back to. They suffered losses again and Laurel got a jacket to be a super hero and I guess the okay to get back with Oliver. From the looks of her smiling face, she lost nothing. 

 

So I can't feel sorry for her, she gets everything she wants and even when she has a "drug problem" she just gets everything right back with no lasting effects. 

[JenMD]

But that's an assumption, it's entirely possible that she did it without talking ad nauseum about. The press and everyone associated with the show have been all over EBR and her canonization that they haven't really been paying Katie Cassidy much mind to ask. All I know is I've seen a lot of her work and I don't think it's a coincidence that she gained weight to play season 1 Laurel then lost it for season 2 and is getting buff for season 3 Laurel. She's a pretty dedicated actress in my experience. I agree she's been given some sporadic writing wrt the drug/drinking storyline but I think she's doing the best with it that anybody could. I also know that she wasn't even that thin as a fashion obsessed PR rep on Melrose so I wouldn't be surprised if given the physical dedication people have on this show she lost all that weight. She now has a six pack so this strengthens my belief even more.

ETA KC isn't in charge of the makeup they put on her but she is in charge of her body and to me her weight loss matched the marked change in Laurel's personality from confident and capable to lost and seemingly hopeless. The change is extraordinarily prevalent when you're marathoning the episodes.

Sure it's an assumption, but so is the idea that she did it for the role, unless someone specifically mentions it, we'll probably never know for sure.  My assumption is based on how the media in general, be they movies or tv, never fail to mention when actors go to extremes for roles, it's a talking point.  It wasn't just that KC didn't talk at length about it (she didn't talk about much of anything Arrow related during most of the season; she had a blip of an interview near the end of this arc, iirc, and that's it for press until the end of the season), the producers who did talk up this arc didn't mention it, the press never mentioned it and I don't think it has anything to do with EBR.  There's plenty of press to go around.  The show was very good about getting their people out each week, whoever was the focus of a particular ep, articles would appear Tues/Wed. like clockwork, there was plenty of opportunity.  It just never came across to me that her appearance had an in-show reason, it truly didn't.  The whole story arc for me was so poorly done that not much made an impression, I guess.

[catrox14]

I think addiction could be a crucible for many people and characters but they didn't do that here with Laurel.

 

I'm thinking about Sherlock Holmes drug addiction in Elementary. Whether one thinks that should be in the SL at all is debatable but since it is I think they have shown that his addiction is a viable crucible because Sherlock is a character that relies on logic and deductive reasoning and little emotion for solving crime cases so an addiction could/should severely compromise that ability and negatively impact him and the people around him both personally and professionally.  It's on the screen and there is no question that it's a struggle for him. It's not a focus of every episode but they don't let us forget that he is an addict in recovery.  It does not make him sympathetic either because he's kind of an ass a lot of the time, but there is no question that he's trying to rebuild his life and become a better person but he still struggles with not using again. Mileage varies but that is my perception of what I've seen on Elementary. ( Nevermind how well acted and written those moments are but that's not really even a fair comparison because IMO JLM is pretty brilliant in the show overall).  Even in a show where addiction is not a cornerstone of a character like Supernatural they did a better job of showing an ongoing growing addiction and it's consequences to the addict and the everyone around him.

 

All of that is to highlight that I have seen little to nothing in the writing nor the acting of Laurel's addiction storyline that even made me think she was an addict. I thought there were hints that maybe it could be an ongoing issue but it was so poorly executed that I was never sure whether she had a serious problem or not. They didn't  communicate that she was pounding pills and swilling alcohol at an alarming rate but  trying to be a functional addict. It was cursory at best. She didn't suffer a consequence when she was stopped for DUI. She used her Dad to get out of it. Thank Gods for Paul Blackthorne in that scene because it was only through his ability to communicate fear, concern and some of Lance's own history that I thought "Huh, is Laurel supposed to be drunk here and is she supposed to be an addict now?" 

 

And IMO, Cassidy's acting was terrible in all of her supposedly stoned or drunk scenes. The only one I remember was her stumbling in her apartment and falling down. And that could easily have been well maybe one night of really being drunk does not an addict make. I do give her credit for the hospital scene wherein she was trying to convince her Dad that she wasn't crazy. But that's about it. 

 

Arrow does a darn good job of making some pretty unbelievable things work but Laurel's real world addiction SL was IMO, in no-way Black Canary crucible-worthy.

[bluebonnet]

But that's an assumption, it's entirely possible that she did it without talking ad nauseum about. The press and everyone associated with the show have been all over EBR and her canonization that they haven't really been paying Katie Cassidy much mind to ask. All I know is I've seen a lot of her work and I don't think it's a coincidence that she gained weight to play season 1 Laurel then lost it for season 2 and is getting buff for season 3 Laurel. She's a pretty dedicated actress in my experience. I agree she's been given some sporadic writing wrt the drug/drinking storyline but I think she's doing the best with it that anybody could. I also know that she wasn't even that thin as a fashion obsessed PR rep on Melrose so I wouldn't be surprised if given the physical dedication people have on this show she lost all that weight. She now has a six pack so this strengthens my belief even more.

ETA KC isn't in charge of the makeup they put on her but she is in charge of her body and to me her weight loss matched the marked change in Laurel's personality from confident and capable to lost and seemingly hopeless. The change is extraordinarily prevalent when you're marathoning the episodes.

Was KC even doing the interview circuit at the time?  In season 1, she looked like the same KC to me, except with a lot of extra cosmetic work done.  When season 2 started, I was so shocked by her appearance that I googled it and there were hundreds of sites that came up questioning it, wondering if this was the result of plastic surgery or extreme weight loss.  At the time, no one was wondering if this was a deliberate choice to indicate depression or addiction.  Even now, when I google, only one tumblr page in the first ten pages of results suggests it might have had to do with the intent to make her an alleged addict.  When KC started up on the interview circuit again, all she talks about regarding fitness and training is what she's doing to prepare to be BC, not what she's done to prepare for her role this past season.  The only thing she discusses regarding this season has been that it was a crucible/island experience. 

 

I agree, the dramatic change is more extraordinarily prevalent during a marathon.  But it doesn't make the story make any more sense.  If she was as dedicated to making her body match a role she was told she would be playing as SA has been transforming his body into the role that he was told he'd be playing, that's admirable.  Unfortunately, neither the writers or the makeup department actually gave her the role of depressed addict.

 

The only one I remember was her stumbling in her apartment and falling down. And that could easily have been well maybe one night of really being drunk does not an addict make. I do give her credit for the hospital scene wherein she was trying to convince her Dad that she wasn't crazy. But that's about it.

 

If I recall correctly, that stumbling was actually due to venom poison rather than alcohol. 

Edited May 31, 2014 by SystemRemote

[Sakura12]

The make up department didn't even bother to make her look like she had drug/alcohol problem. Most of us thought it was over when they stopped showing us anything at all about it for 3 or 4 episodes. Then magically she was all better and faced no consequences which I think is the biggest thing that makes me not buy that she had a serious problem. She didn't suffer at all from her crucible. 

 

KC's weight loss made it look she had an eating disorder more than a drug addiction. Maybe they should've gone with that? 

[catrox14]

 

If I recall correctly, that stumbling was actually due to venom poison rather than alcohol.

 

Was it? I can buy that. See I guess that illustrates my point further  LOL.

 

But that's an assumption, it's entirely possible that she did it without talking ad nauseum about. The press and everyone associated with the show have been all over EBR and her canonization that they haven't really been paying Katie Cassidy much mind to ask. A

 

She's made no bones about talking about doing some training and reading the comics now that she's apparently going to be Black Canary or whatever.  I have a hard time buying that an actress that opts to lose weight as part of role is not going to talk about it. It's like a badge of honor (go sans makeup, gain weight, look unattractive, lose weight all for the CRAFT). Fans might not ask about it at conventions but a journalist or blogger or some other member of the media should have asked about it. But since they apparently didn't or we don't know if they asked and it wasn't answered, that leads me to think that it's a discussion point that is actively being discouraged or the storyline failed to make any impact and no one actually cares enough to ask about it.  Either way, for me, whether it's discussed or not, Cassidy's overall work in that storyline did nothing to make me believe she was a struggling addict, weight loss or no.

[Sakura12]

Yep, the one time she actually acted drunk and looked like she had a problem, it turned out she was poisoned by Sara's ex girlfriend. So she didn't go to the hospital because of her drinking and drug problem, again no actual consequences for her "addiction" storyline. Plus in the next episode she was drinking with her family and no one said anything. 

 

Then we had Blood set her up to look like she had a drug problem. They wanted us to buy that Laurel had a drug problem and was being set up to look like she had a drug problem at the same time. Which to me turned out like it looked like she had a drug problem but not really. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

Rather than KC losing weight for her drug/alcohol arc, it's possible it's the other way around.  Maybe the drug/alcohol storyline was actually written in as an explanation for the weight loss.  If I remember correctly (which it's completely possible that I don't), I thought KC had a definite transformation in her appearance even in the very early parts of season 2.  At that early stage of shooting, I'm not even sure if the drug/alcohol storyline would have even been conceptualized.  And, I'm not sure that any interviewer would have asked Cassidy about the weight loss because they would look just terrible if they asked if she was method acting and had lost weight for her role as a drug addict, and her answer was no.  It would be like asking a heavy lady if she's pregnant when she's not!  Interviewer: "You look like hell KC, was this transformation for your role?"  Cassidy, "No."  Interviewer: "Oh, uh, never mind."

 

The EPs didn't do a very good job with the whole drug/alcohol arc.  I hadn't even realized it was an ongoing thing until I read it an interview with Guggenheim.  That seems to be a common theme with this show...reading in interviews about plot points that you didn't even realize were happening.

Edited May 31, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[calliope1975]

If an actor is going to go to extremes for a role, the show/actor/press is going to talk about it.

 

 

And if KC did drop the weight for the role, and she or TPTBs didn't talk about it, I think it's irresponsible. Part of the reason it's such a big deal when actors go to such body extremes, (Christian Bale, Matt Bomer, Anne Hathaway) it's talked about because it's such a dangerous precedent to set. It's not healthy, and it's not something the average person should aspire to. All three of the actors I mentioned spoke about why they made that decision and how it should only be done under a doctor's care. Of course, I'm not discounting all the kudos the actors received for being so "dedicated" to the role. 

 

That's why I either don't think it was planned or if it was, perhaps KC never told anyone. And it was jarring how different she looked between S1 and S2. I do think she looks much better now and was quite pretty at Moira's funeral. 

[wonderwall]

When Laurel was drunk at Oliver's club. I sort of felt proud that he didn't go out of his way to take her home, it was growth on his part. Season 1 Oliver would've said "I'm going to take Laurel home and take care of her, Arrow business be damned", but here we see that while he does care for Laurel's well-being, he is moving on from that trainwreck of a relationship.

 

Laurel's alcoholism arc was sloppy at best. It provided no growth for her character, in fact, it regressed her even further. Season 1 Laurel was all about justice but season 2? After she miraculously got better, she blackmailed her way back into her old life. The thing is though, is that I don't mind seeing Laurel regressing far enough to become a baddie, it would suit her arc and her actions... but going with what KC and the EPs say about how she's a do-gooder, it just doesn't make her actions or her arc make sense to me. It's like the writers and KC are saying one thing, but Laurel comes off like she's doing something else.

 

As for KCs weightloss, no actor in their right mind, much less an actor on a CW show would lose weight for a couple of scenes per episode. If she did, I would deem her insane, if she didn't then I'd probably be concerned about KC. 

 

I've also been thinking that since Laurel is such a divisive character, this would make the EPs a little cautious about her being BC. I think one of the EPs said that we won't even imagine what they have in store for Laurel. Well, if it's so unimaginable then I'm sure Laurel won't become BC because pretty much everyone thinks that right now (especially with the passing of the jacket). Regardless, I take everything the EPs say with a grain of salt. 

 

I repeat once again though, I hope Laurel doesn't take over and get more screentime. I want this to be Felicity and Digg's season, not the Lances. The writers owe the characters that because Felicity and Digg are the reason why people are still watching this show, not Laurel. Not a lot of people care if Laurel becomes BC, in fact, not a lot of people cared that she wasn't in a few episodes, but we did see people care and complain about the fact that Felicity and Digg have been shoved into the background. Like I said, Laurel isn't the make-or-break factor for Arrow (as they thought she would be in season 1), Felicity and Digg are, which is why it's crucial for them to add more depth to their characters, to give them proper backstories and arcs that both affect the main character and the overall plot. They deserve it. 

Edited May 31, 2014 by wonderwall

[bluebonnet]

I think some of you guys are forgetting about when Laurel was outright drunk at Oliver's club.

She was being poisoned by Nyssa. 

[wonderwall]

Oh snap you're right. Can you blame me? I check out whenever it comes to Laurel :p Thanks for the clarification!

[bluebonnet]

Oh snap you're right. Can you blame me? I check out whenever it comes to Laurel :p Thanks for the clarification!

Lol.  No worries.  It's just even more hilarious that the one time Laurel actually presents as an addict, turns out it's only Nyssa poison. 

[slayer2]

Sure it's an assumption, but so is the idea that she did it for the role, unless someone specifically mentions it, we'll probably never know for sure. My assumption is based on how the media in general, be they movies or tv, never fail to mention when actors go to extremes for roles, it's a talking point. It wasn't just that KC didn't talk at length about it (she didn't talk about much of anything Arrow related during most of the season; she had a blip of an interview near the end of this arc, iirc, and that's it for press until the end of the season), the producers who did talk up this arc didn't mention it, the press never mentioned it and I don't think it has anything to do with EBR. There's plenty of press to go around. The show was very good about getting their people out each week, whoever was the focus of a particular ep, articles would appear Tues/Wed. like clockwork, there was plenty of opportunity. It just never came across to me that her appearance had an in-show reason, it truly didn't. The whole story arc for me was so poorly done that not much made an impression, I guess.

I mention EBR because if I was still in acting and was given the lead female role in the show only to be usurped by a new actress who started as recurring I wouldn't be feeling press much myself. What the hell would I have to say to them? My character is an addict now or maybe not or maybe she's a lawyer, no she's a DA, no she's a drug addict, nah she's Black Canary I mean of all the fuck ups CW shows have made KC's character is at the top of the list. Her Nightmare on Elm St character was written with more consistency and frankly it's humiliating how they've treated her IMO. It reminds me of poor Colin Egglesfield on The Client List who was hired as the lead male only to be shoved in the background second season once JLove started dating the recurring character and wanted him to be her lead.

Why would she want to be all over the media after that? I swear someone thinks she poisoned their dog or something because the treatment of her character is ludicrous. It'd be enough if they brought in Felicity as the romantic lead but then they take Canary away as well? ...The fuck....? Seriously she's handling it with miles more class then I ever would and honestly I bet they lured her to the show with Black Canary to begin with so that would make it even worse.

I like Felicity enough although I'm starting to like her less and don't enjoy her nearly as much as Huntress, Sara or Laurel and EBR has earned her place as has Caity Lotz for sure but c'mon writers.

Edited May 31, 2014 by slayer2

[catrox14]

 

I mention EBR because if I was still in acting and was given the lead female role in the show only to be usurped by a new actress who started as recurring I wouldn't be feeling press much myself. What the hell would I have to say to them?

 

Because Cassidy is a theoretically a professional actress.  If she cares anything about the show she should be out there talking up the story points that are working regardless of her involvement in all those story points. If she's not doing press because she's pissed off about the trajectory of her character then she is being selfish, immature, and petty and not putting the show above her character.  The show isn't called "Laurel Lance", it's called Arrow and it's about Oliver Queen.

[JenMD]

I mention EBR because if I was still in acting and was given the lead female role in the show only to be usurped by a new actress who started as recurring I wouldn't be feeling press much myself. What the hell would I have to say to them? My character is an addict now or maybe not or maybe she's a lawyer, no she's a DA, no she's a drug addict, nah she's Black Canary

She'd talk about the arc her character is on, the downward spiral, etc.  At the time, the producers were all over the great storyline they had lined up for Laurel and all she was going through, etc. and how great it was going to be.  That's when each week, (it was after they got back from Christmas break), I was expecting KCs interviews, but it was always someone else.  If she felt so strongly about the storyline that she was willing to lose weight to play it, then why wouldn't she want to promote it?  Talk it up, be enthusiastic, pretend to care (hey, she's an actor). 

[bluebonnet]

I don't think many of us disagree with you, slayer2, which is sort of the point we've been making.  Laurel's arc is incredibly inconsistent and senseless.  Yes, that includes the addiction plot.  The reason KC got brought up is because you theorized that her dramatic change in appearance was to add realism to her addiction, which we went on to point out added nothing useful to it.  Unless there is something shameful going on behind the scenes - like harassment or bullying, etc - I'm not all that interested to hear an actor complain that their part isn't what they wanted it to be.  Refusing media appearances seems a lot like throwing a tantrum.  I agree that KC should be frustrated with her character because it's obvious that Laurel makes little sense.  However, she can and should use the media to her advantage if she's so concerned.  She can prove she's watching the show and actually give commentary on what's happening in the show, not what she fantasizes will happen. 

 

A lot of heat is on KC rather than entirely on the fictional Laurel because it's KC who is going around making these completely delusional comments about her character.  Instead of calling Laurel's arc an 'island', she can instead remark upon the 'stumbling' blocks Laurel encountered after Tommy's death.  That changes the language from KC trying to tell a story she wants to be told to one that is actually being told.  She could also choose to answer questions about chemistry or acting choices differently rather than offering her own real life issues as blame.  It's cool if she's excited about being handed the BC jacket, but she shouldn't bring that goofy smile to the camera, and she sure as heck shouldn't be telling the world she couldn't control her excitement during the takes.  It's great if she's morally opposed to having an affair with a married man, but she shouldn't be letting that bleed through her scenes and definitely shouldn't be admitting to the world that she lacks the professionalism to do her job appropriately. 

 

I'd personally feel a lot more sympathy for KC if she were presenting herself as at least partially self-aware.  A huge amount of blame lies with the writers and showrunners.  They created a character that wasn't going to work and have been unable or unwilling to adapt.  But there's also blame that is on KC because her inability to remain professional in front of the cameras and speak appropriately about what's actually playing out on screen further confuses her character. 

Edited May 31, 2014 by SystemRemote

[HighHopes]

Katie Cassidy is a professional, and she shouldn't let the fact that a one time character turned into a series regular effect her so much that she now refuses to do publicity. While EBR was doing weekly interviews in the beginning of the season, Katie Cassidy was silent. If she wanted the media to remember that she was the leading lady, she should have been doing interviews. But she was silent, and missing from episodes and meanwhile Felicity was in every episode, and EBR was doing interviews. Why wouldn't the media assume that EBR is now the leading lady? 

 

If Katie Cassidy wasn't happy with the material she was given, why would she go to extreme lengths to lose the weight for her character and not promote it? Why wouldn't you, if you thought your spot as leading lady was being taken over, try to do as many interviews and promotion as possible? When the show did the live tweeting event, Katie Cassidy was not a part of it. She may have tweeted, but she wasn't a part of the group. So if you followed the list on twitter, you wouldn't have seen any of her tweets. While Caity Lotz wasn't at the event, she was still a member and still participated. So Katie is unhappy with her character and the fact that she might be losing the leading lady spot, so instead of promoting her character and the show, she stays silent..which doesn't help her situation at all. 

[slayer2]

I don't think many of us disagree with you, slayer2, which is sort of the point we've been making. Laurel's arc is incredibly inconsistent and senseless. Yes, that includes the addiction plot. The reason KC got brought up is because you theorized that her dramatic change in appearance was to add realism to her addiction, which we went on to point out added nothing useful to it. Unless there is something shameful going on behind the scenes - like harassment or bullying, etc - I'm not all that interested to hear an actor complain that their part isn't what they wanted it to be. Refusing media appearances seems a lot like throwing a tantrum. I agree that KC should be frustrated with her character because it's obvious that Laurel makes little sense. However, she can and should use the media to her advantage if she's so concerned. She can prove she's watching the show and actually give commentary on what's happening in the show, not what she fantasizes will happen.

A lot of heat is on KC rather than entirely on the fictional Laurel because it's KC who is going around making these completely delusional comments about her character. Instead of calling Laurel's arc an 'island', she can instead remark upon the 'stumbling' blocks Laurel encountered after Tommy's death. That changes the language from KC trying to tell a story she wants to be told to one that is actually being told. She could also choose to answer questions about chemistry or acting choices differently rather than offering her own real life issues as blame. It's cool if she's excited about being handed the BC jacket, but she shouldn't bring that goofy smile to the camera, and she sure as heck shouldn't be telling the world she couldn't control her excitement during the takes. It's great if she's morally opposed to having an affair with a married man, but she shouldn't be letting that bleed through her scenes and definitely shouldn't be admitting to the world that she lacks the professionalism to do her job appropriately.

I'd personally feel a lot more sympathy for KC if she were presenting herself as at least partially self-aware. A huge amount of blame lies with the writers and showrunners. They created a character that wasn't going to work and have been unable or unwilling to adapt. But there's also blame that is on KC because her inability to remain professional in front of the cameras and speak appropriately about what's actually playing out on screen further confuses her character.

I understand what you're saying and I certainly understand that many people don't enjoy Laurel (euphemising) but I feel like a lot of the comments KC is making are being turned upside down and pulled out because she's Katie Cassidy. There's not a lot of proof to many of the things people hate her for. I don't even understand the hate for an actress because people can't stand the character.

I hated Lana Lang a lot of the time (sometimes I quite liked her) but I adore Kristin Kreuk. Also lot of these things are happening behind the scenes, how do people know the producers aren't telling her to say the stuff she's saying.

In later years it became apparent in a subtle way that KK wasn't the biggest fan of where they took Lana Lang but she wasn't about to step out and shit on the character because she was still working on the show. On her hiatus she simply did other things and when her contract was up and she had the chance to hightail it out of Smallville she took off like a bat out of hell.

As you know I'm sure, actors get prepped for press, they certainly get told what they can and cannot say in interviews especially on a secret-laden show like Arrow so why would that exclude KC.

To me seeing people snarking that KC should know how to play an alcoholic because her dad was one is making it personal and just a dreadful thing to say.

It's not meant to be personal IMO it's a show and Katie Cassidy is not to blame for the writing she receives or the arcs that take off in strange places any more than Willa is responsible for that dreadful Thea writing.

If someone thinks she's a terrible actress, fine. I don't see it but there's no need to slander every little thing about KC from her body to her attitude in defense of one's ire for the character (not to say that you are). I enjoy these in depth discussions and disagreements about the show and the characters on it, I guess my enjoyment just diminishes severely when it's taken out of context and aimed at the actor.

Edited May 31, 2014 by slayer2

[statsgirl]

Wow, HighHopes, that's an interesting group.  Thanks for linking to it.

 

It sucks to be given a job as the leading lady on a show that becomes popular and then have other people take on what you thought was your role. But that's the business.  I doubt Colin Donnell was thrilled to find out that he was being killed off because everyone was predicting that he would become the Dark Archer but even after he knew he was losing his job, he was still out there doing publicity.

 

The Laurel Lance role has been a mess and hard to promote, which is why I think KC should have consulted the PR department or hired her own consultation. Instead of saying that season 2 has been Laurel's island, she could have been saying that this year has been very hard on Laurel, losing Tommy, wanting to run away into addiction, finding out that Sara is alive and having to deal with that, losing her job and the havoc that Blood brought on the city, emphasizing the strain on Laurel rather than pushing that Laurel is now equal to Oliver and Sara in terms of crucibles. Instead of saying that she's been working with a trainer for a month in anticipation of being the Black Canary next season, she could be saying that she's been working out because she'll do what she needs to for her role as Laurel Lance.  Instead of telling her fans that Laurel and Oliver are Made For Each Other, she should be emphasizing the ties between them.    If I were her agent, I'd be telling her to do whatever media she can for the show so that viewers clamor to see more of Laurel rather than have half the posts on spoiler sites be worrying that she's going to be the Black Canary next season.  

Edited May 31, 2014 by statsgirl

[slayer2]

statsgirl She DID say she's working out and will do what it takes to be Black Canary because she wants to please the fans. What else could she possibly say? People complained she was too bony to be Black Canary so she's working out. To-may-to To-mah-to I guess but Laurel Lance will be Black Canary eventually so I see no harm in telling people she's preparing for that since that's clearly what the producers told her. Edited May 31, 2014 by slayer2

[HighHopes]

I don't even understand the hate for an actress because people can't stand the character.

 

 

I think that at least for me, it's the dislike of the actress that is making me dislike the character. I used to be neutral on Laurel, but then Katie Cassidy started doing interviews that seemed so disconnected with the rest of the show I wondered if she was even watching (and lo and behold, she actually hasn't seen some of the episodes). It was Katie Cassidy who was gleefully smiling in that scene in the finale with Sara on the docks, not Laurel. So her acting choices are directly influencing the character, making me dislike Laurel. If Laurel was upset that her sister was leaving to be an assassin again and accepted the jacket as a "I will hold on to it until you come back" instead of smiling and being giddy, that scene would have been completely different and would have probably done wonders for the Laurel character.  

Edited May 31, 2014 by HighHopes

[slayer2]

I think that at least for me, it's the dislike of the actress that is making me dislike the character. I used to be neutral on Laurel, but then Katie Cassidy started doing interviews that seemed so disconnected with the rest of the show I wondered if she was even watching (and lo and behold, she actually hasn't seen some of the episodes). It was Katie Cassidy who was gleefully smiling in that scene in the finale with Sara on the docks, not Laurel. So her acting choices are directly influencing the character, making me dislike Laurel. If Laurel was upset that her sister was leaving to be an assassin again and accepted the jacket as a "I will hold on to it until you come back" instead of smiling and being giddy, that scene would have been completely different and would have probably done wonders for the Laurel character.

I see what you're saying here but what if the script said: Laurel : "It fits" (Laurel smiles and hugs Sara as Sara smiles back)? How do you know it didn't?

[HighHopes]

I see what you're saying here but what if the script said: Laurel : "It fits" (Laurel smiles and hugs Sara as Sara smiles back)? How do you know it didn't?

 

Katie Cassidy (I believe at the Calgary Con?) said as much. She mentioned that she couldn't hide her giddiness at receiving the leather jacket during filming. And I'm not sure what type of person (let alone a sister) would be smiling as they watched someone go off to join a group of people that just weeks ago they tried to commit suicide so they wouldn't have to go back to them. If it was in the script that they should be smiling, then it's on the writers, but there's smiling through tears, and then there's the giddiness that was Laurel's smile.

[catrox14]

statsgirl She DID say she's working out and will do what it takes to be Black Canary because she wants to please the fans. What else could she possibly say? People complained she was too bony to be Black Canary so she's working out. To-may-to To-mah-to I guess but Laurel Lance will be Black Canary eventually so I see no harm in telling people she's preparing for that since that's clearly what the producers told her.

 

 

The problem, for me, is that she did very little press and didn't really talk up the show in a bigger picture sense UNTIL now with her on an apparent arc to Black Canary.  It rubs me the wrong way, and smack of prima donna behavior that really hasn't even been earned.  It communicates to me that she doesn't necessarily value "Arrow" the show as much as her role in it. I'm not saying she is a prima donna, but it does give me pause as to why she's been pretty quiet until now.  And I don't believe that the production team would squelch her promoting the show whenever she could regardless of her storyline.

[statsgirl]

It quite possibly did say "Laurel smiles".  Would the scene have played differently if it had been a bittersweet smile instead, since Sara was going off to a bad place?

She DID say she's working out and will do what it takes to be Black Canary because she wants to please the fans. What else could she possibly say? People complained she was too bony to be Black Canary so she's working out.

 

It's a small point but she said that she's been working out for the past month to become the Black Canary.  I think she should have dropped "the past month"  because as a viewer, I think she should have started doing martial arts and working out as soon as she heard the pilot was picked up if they promised her the Black Canary role.  It's not the boniness because Celina Jade is quite thin, it's the lack of physicality that makes it hard to believe Laurel Lance can be the Black Canary.  Stephen Amell, Caity Lotz, Celina Jade, Manu Bennett, all of them work out so hard to be able to do the fight scenes that their characters require.  If Katie Cassidy doesn't feel she needs to do the work until she's handed the black leather jacket, that's her choice, but someone needs to tell her not to broadcast it to the audience.

[catrox14]

I see what you're saying here but what if the script said: Laurel : "It fits" (Laurel smiles and hugs Sara as Sara smiles back)? How do you know it didn't?

 

That comes down to an acting choice. She could have chosen to play it with a melancholic, sad smile and some remorse, not outright broad smiling glee, which is the only thing I got out of that.

[slayer2]

It quite possibly did say "Laurel smiles". Would the scene have played differently if it had been a bittersweet smile instead, since Sara was going off to a bad place?

It's a small point but she said that she's been working out for the past month to become the Black Canary. I think she should have dropped "the past month" because as a viewer, I think she should have started doing martial arts and working out as soon as she heard the pilot was picked up if they promised her the Black Canary role. It's not the boniness because Celina Jade is quite thin, it's the lack of physicality that makes it hard to believe Laurel Lance can be the Black Canary. Stephen Amell, Caity Lotz, Celina Jade, Manu Bennett, all of them work out so hard to be able to do the fight scenes that their characters require. If Katie Cassidy doesn't feel she needs to do the work until she's handed the black leather jacket, that's her choice, but someone needs to tell her not to broadcast it to the audience.

She's explained that already though, she's said she isn't playing Black Canary yet she's playing Laurel Lance explicitly who isn't Laurel yet in the same way Oliver wasn't Green Arrow until after a certain point. Now as I understand it she will be playing Black Canary, hence the training and studying. Her origin story dmis nothing like the various versions of Laurel Dinah Lance in the comics so until she's playing Black Canary (which I guess is now) I see no need for her to get ripped, makes no sense at all in the context of the character. Nothing about Laurel Lance season 1 or 2 implied built like a tank.

[icandigit]

I really wouldn't have cared about Laurel as Black Canary.  I have no frame of reference for the character. The creators screwed Laurel as BC for me by bringing in CL.  She owned that role and I really don't want to see anyone else play it. That's nothing KC did. It's not that I wouldn't buy her as a superhero, but CL made such a great impression on me.

[Tangerine]

I mention EBR because if I was still in acting and was given the lead female role in the show only to be usurped by a new actress who started as recurring I wouldn't be feeling press much myself. What the hell would I have to say to them? My character is an addict now or maybe not or maybe she's a lawyer, no she's a DA, no she's a drug addict, nah she's Black Canary I mean of all the fuck ups CW shows have made KC's character is at the top of the list. Her Nightmare on Elm St character was written with more consistency and frankly it's humiliating how they've treated her IMO. It reminds me of poor Colin Egglesfield on The Client List who was hired as the lead male only to be shoved in the background second season once JLove started dating the recurring character and wanted him to be her lead.

 

I feel like it's a bit of a Chicken/Egg debate. Is Laurel as a character suffering because KC is being given bad material, or is KC given bad material because she didn't step up and deliver what was originally expected of her? I personally think it's a combination of both. 

 

Yes, Laurel's characterization suffered greatly in season 2 and the writing did her no favours at all. I feel bad that KC was given a mangled mess of a character to work with and that yes it does suck that it seemed like she was having what she originally signed up for taken away. But the writers and Powers that Be are in the business of making a successful show so they had to respond to the audience and critics favouring Felicity over Laurel. I don't find KC to be a compelling or strong actress, and that doesn't help her cause at all. I'm not saying Meryl Streep would have made Laurel a great character, but I go back to the example of Thea who is also poorly written but Willa Holland is at least able to make something of her that makes her believable and interesting to watch. There's plenty of blame to go around for why Laurel isn't working, and KC's portrayal and acting choices is part of that.

[KirkB]

I really wouldn't have cared about Laurel as Black Canary.  I have no frame of reference for the character. The creators screwed Laurel as BC for me by bringing in CL.  She owned that role and I really don't want to see anyone else play it. That's nothing KC did. It's not that I wouldn't buy her as a superhero, but CL made such a great impression on me.

 

 

   This is a central issue for me. If Laurel is, and always was, intended to be the Canary, why on Earth did they have Sara play her first? Was it really a set up for a passing of the torch and they essentially hired CL as a placeholder, only CL turned out to be fantastic in the role and a fan favorite, eclipsing the hell out of Laurel? Why not wait and introduce BC when KC is ready?

Edited June 1, 2014 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

From the Honor Thy Father (1x02) thread:

 

The fact that Laurel forgave Oliver again (is that twice in two episodes, now?) and invited him in for a chat over ice cream, is still something that irritates me. How was anyone ever going to like this doormat of a woman? Especially when she can't even make her own mind up about how she feels about someone, unless they tell her to feel a certain way. From 'If you need a shoulder to cry on' to 'he told me to stay away from him and he was right' to 'let me give you some well-meaning advice while you share your burdens with me'. Just... whiplash writing that sacrificed Laurel's characterisation at the expense of moving Oliver from A to B.

When Oliver showed up at Laurel's door, she aggressively said "How am I going to keep away from you if you keep showing up?" but when he asked, she let him in, he had ice cream, and he sat on the floor and she sat in a chair several feet away and they sort of talked, and when they got attacked, she ran into his arms.

 

Now think about how that would have played if instead of angrily, she said "How am I going to keep away...." with a rueful, half-teasing expression. And when they were eating ice cream, they sat closer together and when he was talking about his problems, she reached over and squeezed his arm in sympathy, so that when they were attacked, the physical contact wasn't completely out of the blue.

 

The writing for Laurel hasn't been great but it wasn't great for a number of the other characters too.  I think Katie Cassidy's acting choices have made the ping-ponging in season 1 worse because she always played the surface reading of the line rather than shading it with nuances.  When she was mad at Oliver, she was MAD at him, and when she was supporting him, she was SUPPORTING him and it made the differences between the two situations glaring.    By the middle of season 1 you could see that the writers were trying to find a way to make Laurel work since every other female character on the show was better with Oliver than Laurel was, from Helena to Felicity to McKenna to Shado, She was good with Tommy and good with Quentin but for some reason, the lawyer scenes and the Lauriver scenes weren't working, and she was far from ready to be the Black Canary.  By season 2 they were throwing spaghetti at the wall trying to make the audience like her.  The crusading lawyer didn't work... will a vendetta against the Arrow work?  or an addiction arc? (that was a problem because you never knew when she was drunk or not because she seemed pretty lucid most of the time) or Laurel Lance Girl Detective?  how about a fight with Sara?  a speech to Oliver to tell him to keep fighting?  a reconciliation with Sara? no, wait, I've got it, we'll have her shooting an arrow and have Sara hand her the jacket!  That will set her up to be the Black Canary.

 

I don't know what goes on in the table reads and on set but there have been some hints that the writers listen when the actors have a suggestion.  It was planned to be Oliver who was Malcolm's child until John Barrowman suggested it should be Thea instead, and it was Stephen Amell's idea to have Oliver flanked by Sara on one side and Roy on the other as they went into the tunnel fight.  I think KC should have fought for some changes to give her character more strength, even if it was only something as small as not wearing a white coat to break into a government building. .

 

It can be done to make an unlikable or inconsistent character a fan favorite  -- Hugh Laurie took a selfish, lying, cruel character and made the world root for him on House and James Gandolfino made a mobster compelling on The Sopranos.  Katie Cassidy earns at least as much as Stephen Amell if not more since she was the bigger star when they signed their contracts,  and for almost $700,000 a year, I expect more from her.

 

 

so until she's playing Black Canary (which I guess is now) I see no need for her to get ripped, makes no sense at all in the context of the character. Nothing about Laurel Lance season 1 or 2 implied built like a tank.

I don't think she needs to be ripped or built like a tank, ever.  But Celina Jade isn't either and she's been training in martial arts since she was a child.  My point was that it takes more than a few months to develop the physical skills that she would need to play the Black Canary realistically even if she works out several hours a day.  That kind of muscle memory doesn't come easy..

Edited June 1, 2014 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

I don't think it's a coincidence that she gained weight to play season 1 Laurel then lost it for season 2

 

Slayer2   I could be willing to believe KC lost weight for season 2, but I'm confused over the comment about her gaining weight to play Laurel in season 1.  I am sure that during season 1 the writers had not done any real planning for season 2 so I would be hard pressed to think KC added weight in anticipation of losing it in the second season or did I misunderstand the point you were trying to make?

 

A lot of heat is on KC rather than entirely on the fictional Laurel because it's KC who is going around making these completely delusional comments about her character.  Instead of calling Laurel's arc an 'island', she can instead remark upon the 'stumbling' blocks Laurel encountered after Tommy's death

 

To be fair, it wasn't just KC that compared what Laurel went through as her island.  The producers pulled this chesnut out themselves and IMO really shot themselves in the foot since it they had just left her arc as Laurel is having a real tough time this year, she IMO would have gained far more sympathy than she has since I was told I should consider Laurel's tough time equal to Sara and Oliver. 

 

The absurd part is it didn't need to be.  They could have even said that Laurel faces some trials this year and just stopped talking and I would have been fine, but it puts me on the defensive when they are telling me things that seem IMO blatantly false and unfairly given. 

I hated Lana Lang a lot of the time (sometimes I quite liked her) but I adore Kristin Kreuk. ...

In later years it became apparent in a subtle way that KK wasn't the biggest fan of where they took Lana Lang but she wasn't about to step out and shit on the character because she was still working on the show. On her hiatus she simply did other things and when her contract was up and she had the chance to hightail it out of Smallville she took off like a bat out of hell.

 

KK is an interesting comparison.  Lana was certainly not appreciated by a great deal of fans but I never heard anything but good things about KK and even Lana's most vocal detractors came to the defense of KK and I have to think it had to do with how KK opened herself up to the media.  She was accessible and funny and down to earth and clearly separated for the viewers IMO the difference between the actress and the character.  Even when her acting ability was panned, people still remained fond of KK.

 

I compare it to what happened with Erica Durance (Lois).  As I remember it, for a number of years she was afforded the same kind of respect as KK-  complain about the character or the acting side but don't make it personal but then there was an interview where I remember feeling that ED made it personal.  She was being interviewed and the issue of her part time status and limited role in the show was brought up and instead of just being positive about what she did have or expressing a hope or desire for the future she said, "Neener, neener, " basically in the end "I win." and with that one statement the actress became a target as much as the character.  I know I as a fan of other characters that had been there from the start and were full time regulars felt directly mocked and sneered at. 

 

I'm not saying KC has done anything mean spirited like that but in her absolute certainty of where the show will go, a certainty that hasn't been backed up by other sources to my knowledge, there is an implication that I should get with the program and stop liking distractions and imposters like Felicity or Sara.  I honestly don't think that is KC intention.  I think she's talking about what she thinks should happen and wants to happen and is doing so without any intended malice but I can't help feeling like when she was handed the jacket that she felt it was her turn to win now which in turn means I have to lose and it's hard not take that and make it personal. 

Edited June 1, 2014 by BkWurm1

[dtissagirl]

Huh. I was always pretty sure Katie Cassidy lost all that weight because it made complete sense to be a size zero while launching a fashion blog. High end fashion houses really appreciate it when hip fashion bloggers are very very skinny to be able to wear virtually any clothes they throw at them. I thought it was a business decision for KC that had nothing to do with Arrow. And OF COURSE she wouldn't talk about her weight loss to the press because that'd be opening a can of worms with impressionable girls reading her blog.

 

And then I just figured the backlash Laurel got when S2 started -- plus every one online commenting on how much weight she lost -- made the showrunners realize they could exploit the fact that KC had drastically changed her body in the addiction storyline.

Edited June 1, 2014 by dancingnancy

[FurryFury]

By the middle of season 1 you could see that the writers were trying to find a way to make Laurel work since every other female character on the show was better with Oliver than Laurel was, from Helena to Felicity to McKenna to Shado,

 

And Thea. I remember people actually shipping Oliver/Thea romantically (!), before Felicity appeared, that's how bad Oliver/Laurel was. A trainwreck of a relationship, truly.

[KirkB]

Honestly, I'm not sure that was so much a problem with Oliver/Laurel as it was the fact Stephen had far more chemistry with Willa than Katie.

[statsgirl]

Honestly, I'm not sure that was so much a problem with Oliver/Laurel as it was the fact Stephen had far more chemistry with Willa than Katie.

I don't think it was a sexual chemistry though, it was just pleasant to watch them interacting with each other, which Oliver and Laurel wasn't.

 

I've been re-watching s1 and having seen s2, I'd forgotten how much Laurel was in the first season episodes.  If it wasn't with Oliver, it was about Tommy or Thea or working on a legal case.  The temptation to fast forward her scenes is great. It's not that I hate Laurel, it's just that I want her to hurry up and get out of the way so I can get to what I'm interested in watching. 

 

dancingnancy, the idea that KC lost the weight for her fashion blog makes sense, especially since Laurel's addiction arc didn't start for a few episodes in.  In at least one interview she seemed more committed to her blog than to Arrow.

[FurryFury]

Honestly, I'm not sure that was so much a problem with Oliver/Laurel as it was the fact Stephen had far more chemistry with Willa than Katie.

 

But lack of chemistry is one of the problems with Oliver/Laurel! And, well, I'm pretty sure there'd be enough people shipping them even despite that if they were written well enough. There are examples of people shipping better-written canon couples without especially good chemistry just because they weren't that bad, and, well, were canon. I can definitely understand fans shipping incest if there's really strong subtext, but Thea and Oliver didn't have it. People just didn't want Laurel as his love interest, right off the bat. I never shipped Oliver with anyone, but I disliked Laurel basically from the pilot onwards, and the relationship with Oliver was a big part of that.

[catrox14]

I didn't ship Ollie and Thea but I thought they sure crackled with some kind of something that Ollie never had with Laurel. 

[slayer2]

I really wouldn't have cared about Laurel as Black Canary. I have no frame of reference for the character. The creators screwed Laurel as BC for me by bringing in CL. She owned that role and I really don't want to see anyone else play it. That's nothing KC did. It's not that I wouldn't buy her as a superhero, but CL made such a great impression on me.

This makes a lot of sense to me and I can totally understand that. CL is pretty hard to beat given her martial arts, dancing and parkour background and general physicality. It's a bar raised pretty damn high and it's hard to see how KC could come close to it. The producers really shot themselves in the foot with that one if this was always their plan.

[FurryFury]

They wouldn't have recast her if that had always been the plan. These guys don't have plans, they go with the moment.

[Sakura12]

That's why I never got the point of bringing Sara in as the Black Canary. They said she was part of Laurel's journey, when?

 

The sister's had no interactions at all for 13 episodes, then in the 14th one Laurel yelled at Oliver and at the very end apologized to Sara (who didn't speak or respond to her), Laurel wasn't in the 15th episode. In the 16th one she had 2 one minute long scenes with her where they talked about Oliver, she had a longer conversation with Oliver. The 17th episode was about Helena and Laurel and darkness, Laurel had no idea the Canary was her sister and mentioned Sara once while talking to the Canary. So no revelations there. It wasn't until the 19th episode that Laurel realized that her sister that was presumed dead for 6 years wasn't on a vacation and now has the body of a wounded war veteran. Which made her realize that the woman beating the crap out of criminals with the Arrow was her. (they never even mentioned that the woman in black has been around for quite some time, longer than Sara's been back). Then Sara left pretty soon after that only to come back for Laurel to give her "You're a hero" speech which meant nothing since Sara went back to being a killer for hire. 

 

So when was Sara part of Laurel's journey? They barely talked to each other and Laurel had no clue that her sister was alive, what happened to her and what she was doing for the city for most of the season.  If anything I saw Laurel as part of Sara's journey to becoming a hero (until they threw Sara under the bus in the last episode that is). 

Edited June 1, 2014 by Sakura12

[Happy Harpy]

That's why I never got the point of bringing Sara in as the Black Canary. They said she was part of Laurel's journey, when?

I'll raise you: Where the hell is/was Laurel's journey?

She started the season as an antagonist, then oscillated between a DiD and a glorified cheerleader. Even her crucible was all about herself. So I'm left wondering how this season was in any way a milestone for Laurel's journey to superheroine status.

For me, a hero is someone who takes risks and makes sacrifices for others. Yet the word that comes to my mind when I think of this character is "self". Self-involved, self-centered, self-important, self-righteous. Even her crucible was all about herself whereas imo, Sara and Oliver's are as much about the pain and trouble they bring to others. Even her pep talk to Oliver was "Me, me, me".  So, unless there's a "Miss Narcissistic" in DC's superheroes gallery, I just fail to see how she can be one.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[statsgirl]

Around the middle of s1 they started throwing a lot of women at Oliver -- Felicity, Helena, McKenna -- as if they were trying out other romantic partners for Oliver.  They went back to Oliver/Laurel/Tommy for the end of the season probably to make Tommy's death more dramatic.

 

But even if they had decided to quit Laurel as Oliver's endgame romance, they still could have been building Laurel as BC.  Your scenario is a good one, laurendrew.  The EPs said that they had planned on Sara being alive as far back as s1 but did they also plan to have her as the Canary?  It seems to me that bringing Caity Lotz in as the Canary was a nail in the coffin of Laurel being a realistic BC unless they had planned to kill Sara at the end of s2.