Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[kismet]

In light of the PRISM award nomination for substance abuse, I think it is now more imperative that the writers use s4 to really make LL heroic and not just some that wears a mask & fights crime. Her masked actions in light of the tragedy of losing her sister may seem like she is trying to find a substitute for her not being able to use alcohol/drugs. I know OQ mentioned it in-script that he thought she was substituting one addiction for the other. Which honestly, does feel accurate at times for LL- esp in the beginning. It is not uncommon IRL that people with addictions will do just that substitute a new addictive behavior for the old one. But now that time has passed, she's completed more training witnessed more of the sacrifices & losses - it is a good time for the writers to bring in more substance to her crime fighting that show her actions as heroic and not just a new addiction. They need to clarify in script that she is selflessly choosing to fight crime on the streets. 

 

I think SL/Canary coming back from the dead might actually be a good thing for LL/BC. I don't necessarily need SL passing a torch or giving her permission/approval/blessing. But knowing that her sister is alive, she is no longer doing this just because of SL. Her sister's death is no longer her motivation. Because now when LL/BC chooses to continue the mission of BC it will be about helping people and not just finding a way to mask the pain. (Sorry, I might have actually meant that pun).

 

I'm actually looking forward to seeing what they will do with the LL/QL relationship now that her lying & actions have helped him fall off the wagon. I think bringing awareness to mental health & substance addiction issues is important in modern media. I appreciate that the Arrow writers try to do that with issues like alcoholism & PTSD, they don't have to do that on a comic show or CW drama so I applaud them for doing it. I actually did enjoy the writers incorporating it into the Arrow world first with QL & then LL. My problem with the s2 LL storyline was that it felt so disconnected from the main plotline. I hope that in s4 that they find a way to better incorporate it into the main plot flow. It doesn't have to be a major part of the plot, but it should somehow feel connected.

[wonderwall]

I'm curious about what they're going to do with LL now too. I feel like they can really make her work in season 4. As long as she doesn't cause anymore problems and actually is helpful. I feel like they're going to up her sass like they did at the end of this season. IMO season 4 has the potential to be really good for Laurel because it can be a new slate for her. People can wipe out all of her inconsistencies in the past and focus on LL 2.0 (AKA the LL that doesn't cause problems, is a good fighter, is helpful, and doesn't cause drama). I think they're going to achieve this by making her a secondary character and not giving her much of the spotlight. Usually characters on Arrow tend to fare better when they're out of the spotlight. 

[Genki]

I think you mean LL 4.0

[tv echo]

Respectfully, I think that Laurel will have an increased role in S4 because TPTB want to promote the BC.  We've already seen their focus on costumed superheroes - and they've gotten criticism for their lack of female superheroes.  So I think they will beef up her participation on the show.  I also wouldn't be surprised if Laurel/BC will also cross over to The Flash and LoT a few times.

 

I also wouldn't be surprised if they try to even out her fighting abilities with Oliver's a little by having him slack off on training during the summer hiatus (his "vacation") while she's training hard during those five months.

 

As for her popularity, she's already gotten what I call the "costume" advantage - just fighting in a superhero costume seems to up a character's popularity all by itself on these DC tv shows.

 

Putting the rest of my comments in the Hopes & Fears thread.

Edited May 31, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

So long as its well written & well acted I could be on board for an increased role. It also needs to feel connected to oliver's story since it is the Arrow or at least the main plot. For that reason I wouldn't mind if her story was the one that crossed over more than the others. Let it play out across the 3 shows esp if they want to possibly do more BoP in future.

Problem with LL is that sometimes the material is not always well written, completely disconnected from main plot & imo not always well acted for whatever reason. Sometimes kc does really well & sometimes its horrendous. There is very little middle ground in her acting or directing of her character which is always problematic if u then put more on the characters shoulders plotwise.

[Happy Harpy]

People can wipe out all of her inconsistencies in the past and focus on LL 2.0 (AKA the LL that doesn't cause problems, is a good fighter, is helpful, and doesn't cause drama). I think they're going to achieve this by making her a secondary character and not giving her much of the spotlight. 

 

Respectfully, I think that Laurel will have an increased role in S4 because TPTB want to promote the BC

[...]

As for her popularity, she's already gotten what I call the "costume" advantage - just fighting in a superhero costume seems to up a character's popularity all by itself on these DC tv shows.

I think that she'd be better as a secondary character (in theory, not for me personally) but I agree that TPTB will probably try to make her a lead character yet again.

Yet unless they correct the lacks in the character that imo exist, I'm not sure it will serve them well; since I don't think that Laurel, as they made her and as she's been played, has what it takes to shoulder that position.

@wonderwall, I think you hit the nail on the head with your description. Not causing drama, being a good fighter and being helpful is for me a generic requirement for any basic character on a show like Arrow (if you replace "not causing drama" by "not wallowing in manpain" for male characters). I think it makes characters acceptable/tolerable, I don't think it makes them endearing or fan favorite. And I don't think that it replaces a personality.

And although admittedly, I saw very little of Laurel last season considering that she was pretty much absent from the episodes I watched; indeed I saw nothing more than generic in her, in the finale.

For me Laurel is Sara's sister, Quentin's daughter, Tommy and Oliver's ex but who is she herself ? In the finale I had noooo idea, especially with the revolving reinvention tour that she went through for three seasons. I saw a blank slate in leather and buckles.

So if the writers don't fill this blank slate and decide who Laurel is, since I don't have the feeling that they did beyond "the BC with the Canary Cry because comics", there will be new inconsistencies popping up sooner or later imo.

 

Moreover, I don't think I'll shock anyone by stating that Laurel is pretty much the Read Headed Stepchild of the fandom? (consider this a disclaimer if you think there's need for one). And I think you can ruin a character that people used to love, but I'm afraid that the opposite isn't true. Not with such a "polarizing" lead character, imo.

From what I've seen on many shows (empirical only then, not an absolute principle) novelty wears off. Writing tricks and badass without a cause-type of makeovers work only for so long. If a character doesn't have a solid, clearly defined psyche and an organic place on a show (a whole other problem with LL) at the first mistep, the "hate" or at least the discontent is back with a vengeance.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Menrva]

As long as I continue to watch Arrow, I will have no choice but to tolerate LL's presence and if positive changes are not made to the plotting, writing and acting (which I have little hope for KC) for the entire show I don't know if I can stick with it. I also see an increased role for BC, which I'm not looking forward to at all. I do not care about LL or her evolution as a character; the writers have shown little to no interest in portraying her as a well-rounded person so far and I don't see that changing. This show is supposed to be about Oliver Queen; I really want to see them get back to that.

Unless LL gets her head out of her ass, grows the fuck up and stops blaming everyone else for her problems and shows a willingness to some serious introspection, I don't see how she can become a true hero that can battle alongside Diggle and Thea and eventually Oliver and Felicity once they return to crime fighting, as we all know they will.

Sorry I'm grouchy; haven't had enough coffee yet.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Menrva

[olicityfan25]

The difference between LL and the other characters is that when I'm watching LL, I feel like I'm watching KC. With the others they all become their characters. KC doesn't disappear in the character.

[HighwayFlower]

Laurel is supposed to be a kind and good hearted character. All I get is snotty and self absorbed. There is nothing genuine about her and even though she is more tolerable now, I think that's more me ignoring and tuning her out then any real improvement in the writing. I don't think she is salvageable, but I would love to be wrong because she is obviously not going anywhere.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Some of my girl friends and I spent the holiday weekend at a friend's house and we ended up watching "Arrow" (that's all she pretty much has in her DVR, well that, Outlander and Game of Thrones). Now, some of our friends dropped the show in the second season (during the "mess" of the back half) and so they never saw the "rise" of BC. When Laurel showed up on screen in 321 with Diggle and did the Canary Cry, one of our friends looked up and, in all seriousness, asked when Tori Spelling joined "Arrow." I almost died laughing; I couldn't breathe for a looooooong time. That wig is seriously not doing her any favors (well, the makeup, too).

[wonderwall]

I feel like anyone who doesn't know about the comics therefore the canary cry (which is about 90% of the viewers) would've found the canary cry to be ridiculous, I mean even a lot of comic fans found that ridiculously underwhelming .

 

Also I feel like Laurel and Roy being able to fight the LoA was another thing that made the LoA less scary and less competent. At least that's my opinion. 

[kismet]

Agree about the wig. Its pretty bad. I liked the body of Sara's wig. Actually liked in NP when she was fighting sans wig.

As for the canary cry - giving it to her on the Flash I think was another writers mistake. I enjoy the crossovers, but feel like major character enhancements should at least be addressed on the primary show. I don't remember any in script arrow mention of what or how the cry worked before or immediately after it was shown. I know they want us to watch all the shows but it shouldn't be a requirement for big stuff like the canary cry.

[Betweenthisandthat]

As for the canary cry - giving it to her on the Flash I think was another writers mistake.

 

I enjoyed her scenes on The Flash and convinced me that she can and should be written lighter, hell wouldn't mind if all of the characters were, but such a development like the Canary Cry should have happened or been referred to on Arrow, and actually wish it wasn't a mechanism but something she acquired like the comics.  

 

I like Laurel.  I have no big problems with her.  I don't think she's anymore selfish than anyone else on this show, and I have no problems with her being BC at all.  

 

However, I loved her relationship with Sara at the end of season 2, and it's shameful that season 3 disposed of it so quickly.  I've said this already, but Sara's death as a mistake, and I can only hope that her resurrection redresses that wrong in some way.  I would have loved to see Sara train Laurel, for Laurel to admire how Sara fights and protects other women like she can't, and to see Sara train her because she believes Laurel could be a kind of hero that she can't be because of her dark past.  I would have loved to see Canary and the Black Canary together, then Sara could die if they had to kill her to put her in the spin off and Laurel would be enraged but even more motivated to fight in her sister's name.  Then she's be resurrected, etc.

 

We got a different story instead, some of which I was okay with, but she suffered from what other characters suffered from on the show: lazy storytelling.  I don't think she was the worst-written, but they could have done much better.   Listening to those voices that said she didn't belong as BC, they had her fight her visions of Sara and even Oliver to prove herself when they should have spent more time showing how she became BC from her perspective as a subplot, with Oliver rooting for her while protective of her rather than telling her how unworthy she was.

 

I also don't think she had to lie about Sara's death for so long.  I don't enjoy seeing Quentin and Laurel on the outs like this because it doesn't make either of them look good.  I'd love to see her closer to Thea because they were and should continue to be close, especially now that they're both in masks and have to look out for each other.

 

My only wish is that they write her healing her relationships with her father, her sister if she returns on Arrow before LoT airs, and for her to have some growing friendships with the rest of the team. Also for her to be lighter.  Less suffering and personal drama for all the characters would do this show good.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Betweenthisandthat

[Chaser]

My thoughts on Laurel are jumbled. On one hand she interacted more with the main players and certainly played a larger role and yet I still don't feel she was connected to anything in a significant way. Actually, the only thing that would change if Laurel is removed is Lance would find out about Sara's death from the start. But that wouldn't automatically change the end point of the storyline, because the writers could still use that as a catalyst to turn Lance against Arrow. So really, nothing this season changes if you remove Laurel.

 

I thought they would establish Laurel as a Team Arrow member, but I feel like I missed the 'establish' part of that storyline. She doesn't have any signficant interaction with Felicity/Diggle or Roy until Oliver's 'death'. Then when he comes back, she is nowhere to be found. I get the impression Oliver views her as a tagalong mask (even after her big Canaries episode when he supposedly accepts her). She isn't included in any important conversations i.e. Malcolm/Thea's involvement in Sara's death, Oliver going to fight Ra's,  Ra's offer to Oliver, Public Enemy in the interrogation room, Broken Arrow with Roy, The Fallen with Thea, My Name is Oliver Queen when Oliver is defending his actions to Diggle and Felicity. More then once the viewers are wondering what she actually knows. After Oliver joins the League, she doesn't sound like she is involved with helping Diggle/Felicity and she isn't at the Diggle family dinner (when she was actually at their wedding and apart of their make shift Team when Oliver was 'dead'). Instead she is having french fries with Nyssa and only goes to Diggle and Felicity when Nyssa is in trouble. And has no issue trying to kill Oliver when Nyssa is in danger or scolding Diggle for putting Lyla before Nyssa.

 

The writing choices have been so confusing for Laurel, I would agrue more then the S2 choices.

Edited June 1, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[statsgirl]

Problem with LL is that sometimes the material is not always well written, completely disconnected from main plot & imo not always well acted for whatever reason. Sometimes kc does really well & sometimes its horrendous. There is very little middle ground in her acting or directing of her character which is always problematic if u then put more on the characters shoulders plotwise.

But I want her disconnected from the main plot.  It's when she's part of the main plot that for some reason the writing for the show is its more ridiculous.  I liked her when she was investigating Sebastian Blood while Oliver concentrated on Slade; I rolled my eyes when she jumped out of a window to catch a rope dangling from a helicopter after fighting Brick, or when she defeated three LoA ninjas by herself this season.  I like Laurel the most when she's being a good lawyer as she was in The Calm or getting Oliver out of jail in Broken Arrow.  I liked her working with Nyssa.

 

Laurel for me is like Skye on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., a character the show runners love far more than I do played by an actress with limitations (although I think Chloe Bennett is much better this year).  When Skye has her own small piece of the action, I'm okay. When the show revolves around her, I stop watching.

 

With Laurel, I don't see how they can integrate her into being an ordinary member of Team Arrow.  The Black Canary is the Green Arrow's equal so is she going to take Diggle's place co-leading the Team when Oliver comes back? There wasn't a problem with Roy because he was the sidekick, but the Black Canary isn't sidekick material and I'm afraid that what's going to happen is what happened when Sara joined the Team in 2B and Diggle and Felicity got relegated to the Chorus.  I wish Sin were still around so that she and Laurel could form their own Glades Fighting Agency. Maybe out of the old CNRI offices.

 

I think they can make Laurel work as a character but I don't see how as an equal member of Team Arrow. 

[lemotomato]

With Laurel, I don't see how they can integrate her into being an ordinary member of Team Arrow. The Black Canary is the Green Arrow's equal so is she going to take Diggle's place co-leading the Team when Oliver comes back? There wasn't a problem with Roy because he was the sidekick, but the Black Canary isn't sidekick material and I'm afraid that what's going to happen is what happened when Sara joined the Team in 2B and Diggle and Felicity got relegated to the Chorus. I wish Sin were still around so that she and Laurel could form their own Glades Fighting Agency. Maybe out of the old CNRI offices.

I think they can make Laurel work as a character but I don't see how as an equal member of Team Arrow.

The show presenting Laurel as the finished product BC is what I'm afraid will happen, and what I fully expect to happen in season 4. They're going to justify it by saying she had her own team (Thea and Diggle) and was vigilante-ing in Oliver's absence so now she has enough experience to be his equal. (She went from lawyer to holding her own against LoA soldiers in 5 months, imagine how much better she'll be in 5 more months, according to the show's logic. Hell, maybe she be even better than Oliver, since he's been on vacation.) When he picks up the hood again, he's going to have to co-lead with her. MG said that Laurel will take her "rightful place" on Team Arrow, and I highly doubt it's going to be as his sidekick. Edited June 1, 2015 by lemotomato

[BkWurm1]

With Laurel, I don't see how they can integrate her into being an ordinary member of Team Arrow.  The Black Canary is the Green Arrow's equal so is she going to take Diggle's place co-leading the Team when Oliver comes back? There wasn't a problem with Roy because he was the sidekick, but the Black Canary isn't sidekick material and I'm afraid that what's going to happen is what happened when Sara joined the Team in 2B and Diggle and Felicity got relegated to the Chorus.

 

Yeah, this is a concern.  While Oliver is away, even assuming Diggle did decide to lend a hand, Laurel would be the closest thing to a senior member of the team out in the field.  Which honestly to me is a scary, scary thought and when you think about it, the very reason that they got rid of Roy (that and for Thea but I could have easily imagined her joining in with or without Roy on the team)

 

Oliver and Laurel barely ever managed to work together without sniping.  She did best when she had her own assignment away from Oliver and when he returns, that's the dynamic they are going to have to  repeat in order for Laurel not to be a side kick since there is NO way I'd accept Oliver not being the one in charge. 

 

And while it could change, right now there is not a chance that Oliver and Laurel could co-lead the team.  They might have a degree of respect for each other but they are not partners.  I'm still not certain how Laurel is supposed to be coping on her own.  Mostly I'm going on the assumption that with the Arrow "gone" the SCPD are finally getting their act together so she and Thea for the most part are just handling small stuff like muggers and other independent evil doers. 

[tarotx]

I'm not looking forward to watching team Arrow led by Laurel. It's when thinking about that which has me dreading s4. I just don't want that dynamic. Diggle should be team leader. Laurel being the leading vigilante is just too much for me. She would get herself killed. I don't care that the show likes to say say she's a badass now. She's just never going to be a bad ass to me especially in her costume. It just doesn't fit her personality. I want less of her in costume. She can be out in the field though. But in a spy capacity or in under cover roles.

I think she can be Lawyer Laural Lance working cases like she did in CNRI but not need The Arrow's help. Plus she can be used as a potential victim to gain the upper hand.

And she totally needs to terrorize the viewers and use her canary cry to gain the upperhand.

I do think she can learn a lot from Diggle and Lyla. But those two have light years more experience. And Even Thea has more training. Though Thea's only 20/21 so not as much life experience.

Edited June 2, 2015 by tarotx

[Menrva]

For me, one of my main issues with LL being on Team Arrow is that she brings nothing to the team. Diggle has military training and years of combat experience. Felicity has her hacking and computer skills. Even Roy was dependable and a decent fighter and Thea has shown herself to be a competent archer and fighter.

 

Now while LL may suddenly be a super ninja, able to take down LoA assassins with little difficulty but she is unreliable and unstable. She is a liability. She cannot be counted on to follow instructions and usually others have to save her. I mean, she jumped off a rooftop with no cable, just assuming that Oliver would catch her. LL makes rash decisions based on her emotions and hasn't been shown to be able to look at things objectively. The other team members cannot be sure that she's got their back. I don't mean this in a cruel way; it's just that LL doesn't have the proper experience or mindset to be a competent crime fighter. I know, I know, how will LL ever get the experience she needs to improve if she doesn't get out in the field, but jeez, I wouldn't want her being my backup.

 

My other problem is a little shallow but I can't seem to let it go. It's the costume. The wig, as mentioned above, is pretty laughable (Tori Spelling! I nearly spit) and I won't bother rehashing my hate for Buckle-Palooza. Costumes serve a number of purposes; to conceal identity, to take people off guard, to instill fear. For the most part, the costumes have fulfilled those purposes within the universe of costumed heroes. It's not so much a costume as a uniform. But fingerless gloves? LL should be well aware of the consequences of leaving behind fingerprints. And who cares what shade your lipstick is? It's not about looking sexy; it's about making the other guy take you seriously. Sara's Canary costume was great, aside from the ridiculously exposed cleavage. It paid homage to the comics and looked tough. There were no extraneous details that made you scratch your head.  LL looks like she's going to a 50 Shades-theme costume party. I cannot take her seriously when she's all buckled up. It doesn't look like it affords her much protection either; no panels or pads that could soften a blow. Admittedly, it's tough to create something that looks tough and doesn't come off as a suit of armor but that's a costume designer's job.

 Anyway, I have rambled on enough here. I'm sorry I'm so tough on you LL; I wish I could like you.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Menrva

[BkWurm1]

For me, one of my main issues with LL being on Team Arrow is that she brings nothing to the team

 

What she brings is the same thing that she's always brought.  Her presence.  She's there.  That's why she put on the pleather.  She decided she needed to go out and be there and so when Oliver left, that's why she got to pick up the "legacy", because she was there. 

[Genki]

The most value laurel brings to the team is as a lawyer, not as a vigilante. I would prefer, if we must have BC Laurel, that she is off doing her own thing too.

It's a shame that LL isn't floating between shows in the Flarrowverse because KC has been shown to play Laurel well against Ray and Cisco while in Arrow she has the most successful scenes with PB. (I can't count CD and CL who is not in Arrow anymore).

[statsgirl]

The most value laurel brings to the team is as a lawyer, not as a vigilante.

I agree.  This is an example of when following canon hurts the show.  (See also:  al Ghul, Ra's.)  She was a good lawyer this season; the Team needs a good lawyer.  Unfortunately the show dropped the lawyering entirely except for when Quentin was going after Oliver once she donned the plether.

 

I want her to be running CNRI again, especially once she's made her peace with the ghost of Sara.  I'm afraid the EPs will waste the good will Laurel has accrued in s3 by pushing her to the forefront of Team Arrow.

 

With respect to the costume, I liked the cleavage on Sara better and the fishnet patterns in her pants, but the line for me is the fingerless gloves. That will never make sense for a secret vigilante, especially one who is a lawyer.

[kismet]

Writing LL is going to be hard for s4. I too do not want Dig marginalized as part of TA. I don't think she would marginalize FS as FS does not go out into the field. If all of the sudden LL developed cutting edge cyber skills, then FS would have to be worried. But she does pose a threat to Dig's role, esp now that TQ is also in the field. There are only so many people they can have in the field for the stunts to make sense without having them attack a whole group of bad guys every week. And I agree with the people that say that OQ & LL cannot be co-leaders of a team. They can do the u catch/I cook co-leading - but not crime fighting team co-leading.

 

The problem is that I do not want a repeat of what happened during the addiction/Lance family drama arc or RP in s3. I felt like in those storylines, I was watching a separate show from Arrow. That's why I want her plotline connected. Although I did enjoy the addiction arc, I just felt it needed more intertwining with main plot. I want her to be part of the main show or minimize her character (but I don't think that will happen). I don't need every plotline overlapping, but there should be some overlap. I did enjoy when she was part of the Sebastian Blood plotline s2. I felt that was a good way to give her a personal storyline, but still have it overlap. I enjoyed when LL was lawyering in s1 & end of s3, that made sense to me for her character. I disliked her lawyering in s2 (esp when they put her on Moira's case, which is an example of bad forced overlapping) or when she was the only member of the DAs office in s3, that seemed unrealistic.

 

From an interaction standpoint, I enjoyed her friendship with Nyssa. But I can't see them adding Nyssa permanently to the cast. It would be nice to have Nyssa as heavy recurring/regular cast I just don't see that happening, esp after they had her return to NP. I did find it odd that LL was not part of the Diggle family dinner. Just like I found it off that she was not more involved in Thea's injury/recovery. I get why her stuff might have been edited for time. But if they want her to be part of TA, then she should have been at that family dinner. But for plot purposes, she had to be with Nyssa.

 

So I get logistically why it didn't work, but it adds to the tension of her not feeling like part of TA, which makes it feel like she may displace members at any time. Roy never felt like that because he was introduced very early on into the inner circle of Arrow trust, first as an informant & then as a sidekick. That has not been the case for LL, she was a separate entity in s2 trying to take down TA & then was just thrown into TA in s3 because Slade told her the truth in the s2 finale & SL's murder. It felt like TA was forced to accept her, where there seemed a little more choice in bringing in Roy despite the fact that he was pushed on them as much as LL except it happened because of mirakuru.

Edited June 2, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

I don't think she would marginalize FS as FS does not go out into the field. If all of the sudden LL developed cutting edge cyber skills, then FS would have to be worried.

 

I'm very interested in what they do end up doing about the techie stuff while Felicity is off with Oliver.  Until Palmer blew up, I assumed Felicity had all her programs at that point basically made extremely user friendly, so Thea and Laurel could use her existing set up and only really need help when something is unusual or there is a hardware issue. 

 

Once the temp headquarters went kablewy, they would have had to start over. My head canon has been that Felicity had duplicated all her programs over in Central City so once Barry took care of his little black hole problem, Cisco could have picked out the right equipment and maybe even set it up down in Starling.  (He could come and mack on Laurel again)  Then if there were any fixes needed, Felicity could log in over the internet.

 

So maybe Laurel and Thea consult the comps ahead of time and then don't have anyone watching them remotely.  Or Diggle has basically quit and just keeps his hand in it enough to watch them in some new lair. 

Edited June 2, 2015 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

I'm sure Felicity would have multiple back=ups to her programs. Maybe uploaded them to the cloud unless she thought that would be too easily hacked.

 

 

I don't think she would marginalize FS as FS does not go out into the field. If all of the sudden LL developed cutting edge cyber skills, then FS would have to be worried.

But Felicity did get marginalized during 2B when it was Oliver and Sara out fighting and Felicity and Diggle were only providing back-up.  I agree Diggle has more to worry about but it's also screentime as well as skills and there's only so much to go around.  I'm pretty sure that Laurel could be running comms if the plot heeds her to. As she said in one of the last episodes, she's not a newbie in the lair.  Maybe I should be glad that because she's costumed, she's more likely to go out in the field to fight.

 

I wonder who would win a fight between Thea and Laurel at this point.

[kismet]

LL cannot be out in the field and on comms. So as long as they need someone on comms FS I think has a job on TA. Dig has done comms before, so perhaps he could usurp FS. But I think FS technical skills go far deeper than just being on comms. They didn't mask LL only to keep her in the foundry. Likewise, they did not build up FS as hacker/cyber genius for the past 2 seasons to have that just vanish or move her out of the foundry. Meanwhile, Dig has been sidelined multiple times in s3, first for his baby & then when BC hit the streets. He also then virtually quit the team in the finale. So LL could replace Dig's muscle on TA, if the writers chose to. It's not what I would do in IRL or on the show, but the threat is real if the writers are gunning for her to take her "rightful place" on TA. IDK I hope they find someway to make LL part of TA without marginalizing Dig. I just want them all to be a cohesive unit.

[Sakura12]

I can't just blame the writing for why Laurel's not working for me as a character. 

 

When they ask other Arrow stars who they liked working with the best the two most common replies are EBR or Caity Lotz. From seeing them in interviews (and meeting them both once. :D) they seem like down to earth, friendly people in real life and that comes through in their characters. Even though Sara's dark and tortured she gives off a warm and friendly persona that the other characters and the audience were drawn too. 

 

Cassidy gives off a standoffish, I like my space persona. Which is not a knock against KC, I know that's the persona I give off to people. But that personality trait comes through in Laurel. Which makes her seem unapproachable as a character and makes it hard for me to like her. 

[olicityfan25]

Yeah. I know when I watch con panels either with Caity or Emily they talk really well about their character. Katie Cassidy doesn't really have that charisma for cons. Which is funny since she's been doing it longer. I mean the whole thing about wanting buckles and that dark lipstick for the character is ridiculous especially when sometimes that's all she talks about. I can't remember which con but she was late for that one and she liked the person's BC costume because of the lip colour.

[Starfish35]

Cassidy gives off a standoffish, I like my space persona. Which is not a knock against KC, I know that's the persona I give off to people. But that personality trait comes through in Laurel. Which makes her seem unapproachable as a character and makes it hard for me to like her.

I'm not sure it's that, exactly, for me. Some of my favorite characters have been standoffish - I always think of Aeryn Sun. Probably my favorite female character ever. When we meet Aeryn, she is very hard, and standoffish, and doesn't want to let anyone close to her. But Claudia Black does an amazing job of letting us see the layers underneath Aeryn's hard military-born shell.

It's true that the writing has done Laurel no favors. I think we're all agreed on that. But for me, Katie Cassidy just doesn't sell it. There's a disconnect between what I see from her onscreen and what I think the show is trying to tell me about her, and the dissonance between the two is often like nails on a chalkboard. Laurel, 90% of the time, does not feel real to me. Caity Lotz, despite her relative inexperience (and yes, it showed sometimes), was able to sell me on her character, on the pain, the shame, the vulnerability.....in a way that Katie Cassidy has never been able to do. KC does passionate....I'm thinking unhinged. KC does emotional breakdown....I want to fast forward the scene. KC does caring and empathetic....I'm going "damn, this scene should not be feeling as fake as it does".

It's not 100% of the time. She's had some good scenes with Sara, and with Nyssa, and with her dad. But with Oliver, and Felicity, and Diggle.....most of the time it just feels awkward. She and Oliver will never not be awkward, and I've never been able to buy a friendship between her and Diggle and her and Felicity. I don't know why....it just doesn't feel natural. And for me at least, I don't see that getting any better. It's been three seasons, and personally for me....it's kind of a lost cause. I really can't imagine her being on TA next season, and I particularly dread her being paired with Oliver (in the field I mean). And it doesn't help that I hate the BC costume, particularly the mask and wig, and I just cannot take her seriously when she's wearing them, and that's not even talking about that absurd-looking Canary Cry.

It's not an OTA thing with me - never has been. I'm pretty much fine with anyone on TA but her. *shrug* It is what it is I guess. At this point, I'm honestly just figuring I'll stick around for the first nine episodes and then I'll be out after LoT starts, unless they manage to surprise me (in a good way). But after this last season I'm not really expecting that.

[Sakura12]

Aeryn was supposed to be standoffish, that was her character. Laurel's not supposed to be like that, she's supposed to be this warm and caring person but Cassidy plays her like people are bothering her by just being in her general area if she doesn't want them to be there. That's why I think Cassidy is good at playing the bitchy characters. 

[Starfish35]

she's supposed to be this warm and caring person but Cassidy plays her like people are bothering her by just being in her general area if she doesn't want them to be there.

Ha. Yes, that's true. :)

[EmeraldArcher]

It's true that the writing has done Laurel no favors. I think we're all agreed on that. But for me, Katie Cassidy just doesn't sell it. There's a disconnect between what I see from her onscreen and what I think the show is trying to tell me about her, and the dissonance between the two is often like nails on a chalkboard.

I agree with this so much! I've re-watched the final TA scene in 3x23 an embarrassing number of times (mostly to hear "I want to be with you"), and I'm always hyper-aware of Laurel's/KC's expressions and positioning. She just seems hard and stoic, which is weird for a scene that calls for relief, a sense of shared success, concern for Oliver's statement that he no longer needs to be a hero, and perhaps any type of emotional response to his declarations to Felicity.

As she's an actor who has spent 3 years getting to know her character, I would hope that KC would allow some expression to play across her face in reaction to OQ's public display of love for another woman. She could have been happy that her dear friend and former lover finally found peace and love after 8 horrific years. Or, she could have been wistful or hurt that he was capable of emotional intimacy and honesty with Felicity in a way he'd never been with her. Really, I would have understood any acting choice she'd made that resembled a reaction to anything that happened in that scene, but she was stone cold and standing behind a table as far as possible from the others.

The problem with her being stoic and unreadable is that it didn't come across as LL, because then the audience would have wondered what motivated that response in a sort of mini-cliffhanger. The problem is that KC's acting choices make it seem that she's just checked out or that LL is a hard, self-absorbed, uncaring bitc. . . um, person.

I hope this doesn't come across as the bashing warned against by the mods. I mean it as a critique of acting choices and weak characterization, which can be improved.

[olicityfan25]

I always wondered about their positions in the final episode. She is the furthest away and I think even behind a table or something like that.

[EmeraldArcher]

I always wondered about their positions in the final episode. She is the furthest away and I think even behind a table or something like that.

I watched the scene again just now and really paid attention to her position. She is standing near TQ on the front side of the table up until the point when the camera focuses on OQ and FS. When the shot opens up to the rest of the group during TQ's question about where OQ is going, LL has moved to the back corner of the table. It could have been the director's decision based entirely on logistics to accommodate Nyssa's metaphorical and literal move away from her position between OQ and FS to stand with the rest of the group at the front of table. Dig had to stay in position due to his upcoming departure, so maybe LL was shifted back because she no longer had a purpose for the scene. But, the timing is still weird, given her history with OQ--I think the director should have been more mindful of that so that LL didn't seem so put out by what was transpiring in the scene. If LL could eventually support a relationship between SL and OQ, I don't know why she'd suddenly be disgusted by one between OQ and FS.

Also, I noticed that when OQ professes his faith in her by identifying her as the first person he knew would carry on his legacy, LL's arms are crossed and she has absolutely no change in expression. That is so unexpected, given her desire to be taken seriously by one of the people who inspired her hero's journey. Yes, she took on the mantle of BC to honor her sister, but OQ was the original hero and the one whose team she associated with. I briefly wondered if her bored look was a callback to her S1 attitude that she didn't need OQ's blessing to date Tommy, but these two situations don't seem comparable.

RP was the second person that OQ identified as someone who would continue his legacy, and despite the really complicated relationship between those two men, RP had the grace to nod his head in acknowledgement of OQ's words. So, it just seems like LL should have had some type of reaction.

[wonderwall]

I thought I was the ONLY one!!!??? I didn't pay attention to Laurel during my first watch but when I was watching with my husband he looked over to me during that scene and asked me why Laurel looked so pissed. I mean she really did look pissed. I don't know why KC chose to act like that in that moment, it seemed like such an odd choice, in the end I think I'm going to chalk it up to the actors feelings bleeding into the scene. I don't know how else to explain it.

[SmallScreenDiva]

 

Posted the video here so folks can see for themselves. I'm not reading LL's expression as pissed. More like uninterested in what Oliver has to say. If there was thought bubble next to her, it would have said "whatever." But then in the next shot that shows her (from behind, kind of to the side), it looks like she's smiling, which is the appropriate reaction. This is right before she tells Thea about the masks in Starling. So maybe just a delayed reaction? Maybe KC didn't think they were being filmed? Except Willa was reacting. Sigh.

[EmeraldArcher]

 

Posted the video here so folks can see for themselves. I'm not reading LL's expression as pissed. More like uninterested in what Oliver has to say. If there was thought bubble next to her, it would have said "whatever." But then in the next shot that shows her (from behind, kind of to the side), it looks like she's smiling, which is the appropriate reaction. This is right before she tells Thea about the masks in Starling. So maybe just a delayed reaction? Maybe KC didn't think they were being filmed? Except Willa was reacting. Sigh.

I would hope that LL wouldn't react with disinterest and "whatever" to Oliver's admission that he thought the only way for it to end was in his death! He's saying that before he addresses LL, RP, and TQ about taking his place--it was in the event of what he assumed would be his death. I know many people in the audience have become fatigued with Oliver's perpetual self-sacrifice, but the people in the room have pretty intimate relationships with him and should at minimum show a flash of concern at his mentioning his resignation (not just willingness) to die.

I'm probably spending too much time on this one scene, but I think it's because I feel that LL becomes even more problematic as a character. I guess I blame everybody involved in telling her story--writers, directors, and KC. At least one of those people should care enough about the character to make her behave authentically.

[wonderwall]

Posted the video here so folks can see for themselves. I'm not reading LL's expression as pissed. More like uninterested in what Oliver has to say. If there was thought bubble next to her, it would have said "whatever." But then in the next shot that shows her (from behind, kind of to the side), it looks like she's smiling, which is the appropriate reaction. This is right before she tells Thea about the masks in Starling. So maybe just a delayed reaction? Maybe KC didn't think they were being filmed? Except Willa was reacting. Sigh.

 

Thanks for the video!

 

Sigh, okay watching it again, I can see where you're coming from. IDK what to think about that scene anymore lol I guess maybe it is more disinterest? Like the whole leaning her weight to one side/tilting her head/crossing her arms just screams disinterest (at first I thought it was her being pissed but with her neutral facial expression it seems more like disinterest). 

 

On the one hand I'm glad that she doesn't need Oliver's approval, on the other I sort of wish she had a better reaction to whatever was going on. I didn't see pride in herself (for helping the city), or exhilaration, or relief that she won't have to fight Oliver for her choosing her own path... IDK I just wanted more. I wanted more than that brief smile on her face when she said that there aren't a shortage of masks. 

 

Maybe KC was trying to make Laurel look badass? IDK

[SmallScreenDiva]

Ugh, this is just one of the reasons I get frustrated with Laurel (and, by extension, KC). Even in a simple scene such as this, the reactions seem off and take me out of the scene.

[olicityfan25]

It seems like they didn't like how she was standing or positioned by closing herself off. I can understand John closing himself off but Laurel doesn't really have a reason to stand like that. So I guess they didn't want to see her standing that way so they put her all the way in the back.

If you think about it this scene gives even more credit for Oliver and Felicity being the main couple. He spoke about his feelings in front of everyone. From what I can remember I don't think this was done ever.

[Password]

If you think about it this scene gives even more credit for Oliver and Felicity being the main couple. He spoke about his feelings in front of everyone. From what I can remember I don't think this was done ever.

The writers were very keen on spray painting Olicity on the walls this season.

You guys really impress me with your ability to focus on anything other than Oliver saying "I want to be with you."

[Morrigan2575]

Sigh, okay watching it again, I can see where you're coming from. IDK what to think about that scene anymore lol I guess maybe it is more disinterest? Like the whole leaning her weight to one side/tilting her head/crossing her arms just screams disinterest (at first I thought it was her being pissed but with her neutral facial expression it seems more like disinterest).

Maybe KC was trying to make Laurel look badass? IDK

 

Just watched the clip, I don't think she looks pissed. I think this is KC's idea of "acting" tough, kind of like her robot (bad) runway walk is supposed to be her tough/strong I'm a badass walk.  Basically, IMO she has no clue how to portray someone who is a masked/hero, she plays Black Canary the same way she plays Tough Lawyer Laurel...she crosses her arms gives the dead eye stare and bam that's her idea of a badass.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Delphi]

The thing that throws me honestly is the crossed arms usually signify someone on the defensive, which would make sense given how Oliver started his speech about going it alone and all he's done is tell Laurel that she's not ready, but her expression and stance should have softened a lot sooner in the scene.

Because a few seconds later she does look a lot softer and kinder. And to me at least it looks genuine even if a lot of her other scenes don't look genuine.

I think it might have been a directing problem or editing. Or maybe the script didn't give Katie a reaction like Rays gracious head nod so she didn't convey one.

[DeathQuaker]

In the video clip--she looks relaxed to me, and she is crossing her arms low and loose across her body (instead of up high and tight, which one would do if closed off and angry) just looks like a pose of either confidence... or just needing a place to put her hands (I tend to cross my arms like that when I don't have pockets, and it doesn't mean I'm ticked off at anyone). When I see her, it looks to me like she has a slight smile on her face throughout. Angry people commonly purse their lips (and KC's "angry acting" usually involves that), which she was not doing.

 

The general reading I got from her was "mission accomplished." Not disinterest or anger.

 

(As an aside, I'm a trained mediator and have had to learn to read subtleties in body language (but of course I don't always get it right!). FWIW. )

 

Obviously, YMMV.

Edited June 3, 2015 by DeathQuaker

[wonderwall]

Meh, actors are meant to give the script life just like EBR did in 103. KC is a veteran actress who should know better tbh. And it's just as possible that Ray's head nod was something BR did on his own. I'm just sayin. I was always under the impression that one should always be in character and always act even when they're in the background and the camera isn't focusing on them.

This reminds me of episode 4 when Oliver was heading for the computer and KC was in the background and looked like a robot whose battery had been taken out. Which was a curious acting decision considering the urgency of the scene.

Idk. I think I'm Done trying to make sense of this scene and KCs acting choices. Clearly I'm never going to get it.

[wonderwall]

In the video clip--she looks relaxed to me, and she is crossing her arms low and loose across her body (instead of up high and tight, which one would do if closed off and angry) just looks like a pose of either confidence... or just needing a place to put her hands (I tend to cross my arms like that when I don't have pockets, and it doesn't mean I'm ticked off at anyone). When I see her, it looks to me like she has a slight smile on her face throughout. Angry people commonly purse their lips (and KC's "angry acting" usually involves that), which she was not doing.

The general reading I got from her was "mission accomplished." Not disinterest or anger.

(As an aside, I'm a trained mediator and have had to learn to read subtleties in body language (but of course I don't always get it right!). FWIW. )

Obviously, YMMV.

Lol yeah I think I was wrong when I said pissed. I had to watch the video 3 times to come to the conclusion that she just seemed disinterested.

Maybe if I watch the video one more time I'll see what you mean?

[wonderwall]

Okay here's my final take then I'm done lol. She seemed disinterested until Oliver said "and you" to Thea which is when she had that smile going on. She seemed content when she said the city isn't lacking in masks. Then Oliver went to talk to Felicity and then she went back to being disinterested.

As an aside, it irked me that Oliver called Ray, Thea, and Laurel heroes when it took Oliver more than 1 season and countless amount of hours as the Arrow to become one. I'd rather think that they're still heroes in training. Imo they haven't earned the hero status yet.

I'd say though out of the three I mentioned, laurel is the closest to earning that status but she still has a long long long way to go imo

[DeathQuaker]

Honestly, I think KC has a case of resting bitch face (says a fellow sufferer :) ). She's got a strong brow line that creates a natural "furrowed" expression, and if she's not actively smiling it can look like she's frowning or bored at a glance or if you don't notice other things. I feel like I can read her okay but then people can't read my expression half the time so maybe it's like recognizing like. ;) (Not that I look anything like her. Far from it!). I like her in the role regardless.

 

Oliver probably thinks of his friends/associates/family as "heroes" for just trying, even if we viewers may have more exacting standards. :)

 

I just hope we see more of Laurel's journey organically in S4. Likely half of it will end up on the cutting room floor though. (I swear half this show's problem is editing.)

[Starfish35]

After watching the clip myself, I can't see anything either way. I didn't pay attention to her first time through, and looking at it now......I can't say I got a strong impression of anything really. She was just there. *shrugs*

To take the discussion in a different direction, I just watched The Calm last week, and I thought some of her scenes were weird in that episode. I'm wondering what are your thoughts? Quoting from what I posted in the episode thread:

- Laurel looks so besotted (sorry, can't think of a better word) with Oliver in that scene at the press conference.

I think this would have been an acting choice - I can't imagine her being directed to look at him so adoringly when a lot of the focus of the episode is on the Oliver/Felicity relationship.

- That last scene with Laurel and Sara just strikes me as very very strange. Maybe I've just watched too much TV, but Laurel's reaction just doesn't track right for me. There's no checking to see if Sara's dead, she just immediately assumes she is. There's no frantic attempts to save her, no screams for help, no dialing of 911. Laurel jumps over all of that straight to mourning. I don't know. It just didn't feel natural to me.

This would have been more of a writing issue probably than an acting issue. But it still strikes me as so odd. What do you all think?

[wonderwall]

Honestly, I think KC has a case of resting bitch face (says a fellow sufferer :) ). She's got a strong brow line that creates a natural "furrowed" expression, and if she's not actively smiling it can look like she's frowning or bored at a glance or if you don't notice other things. I feel like I can read her okay but then people can't read my expression half the time so maybe it's like recognizing like. ;) (Not that I look anything like her. Far from it!). I like her in the role regardless.

Oliver probably thinks of his friends/associates/family as "heroes" for just trying, even if we viewers may have more exacting standards. :)

I just hope we see more of Laurel's journey organically in S4. Likely half of it will end up on the cutting room floor though. (I swear half this show's problem is editing.)

You make excellent points lol. I sort of wished she put a little more effort into it though but that's just me. I wish I liked her well enough, seriously watching this show would be so much easier if I did. Something is holding me back though and I don't feel like the writers understand Laurel enough to help me overcome that.

Imo Oliver saying that was more for the audience. It felt like the writers were telling the audience, here they're heroes now. Maybe it came across that way because Oliver didn't need to actually say the word heroes? He could've easily agreed with Laurel and left it at that.

Laurels arc in season 3 wasn't organic whatsoever which may bleed over to season 4. I'm sort of worried because the foundation the writers built for the BC arc is shaky at best so that may compromise future storyline regarding Laurel as BC. I personally hope we see her do more lawyer things than vigilante things next season. They're her strongest scenes.

Imo the biggest issue the character faces isn't an editing one but a writing one and sometimes an acting one (Imo KC isn't a very nuanced actress). Like Laurel keeping Sara's death a secret and impersonating Sara to fool her father... That was just a terrible writing choice.

The worst editing choice they made for Laurel was cutting out the scene that explained why Laurel was in the glades during the undertaking. I don't think the editing for her has been that bad this season.