Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Menrva]

Ok, so I finally looked at Katie Cassidy as Black Canary. Aaaannnd…

 

Edward Scissorhands called. He wants his buckles back. And his lipstick.

[KirkB]

The one good thing about that outfit is it may take Laurel the rest of the season to actually put it on, which will keep her too busy to actually be in any of the episodes.

[hogwash]

Iris on Flash really reminds me of Laurel in S01 and some parts of S02. DiD, kidnapped by the masked hero's enemy for knowing too much, obsessed with the masked hero, doesn't know the friend is the masked hero, one of the few who truly knows the good the hero can do, relationship with friend negatively affected by not knowing he's the hero, written into a (inevitable) love triangle, unaware the friend is pining for her, largely outside of the main action, cop dad, self-defense skills/training, hit/knockout an episode villian because the show somehow thinks that invalidates the DiD thing. These are probably staples of comicbook love interests but it has been so close to Laurel that a couple of times I could actually remember Laurel doing the exact same thing or going through a very similar story arc. Only this time everything bothered/bored me with Laurel worked fine for me with Iris (except the not knowing part. Kill that with fire!). Iris was pretty much S01 Laurel in the most recent episode (S01E06), but I actually enjoyed it even though some parts felt a bit like a retread. I think Iris works better for me because (no pitchforks) she is largely just the love interest. She's going to learn Barry is the Flash, fall in love with him, and live (relatively) happily ever after with him and a house full of mini-Flashes. That's her destiny in the show. She's not like Cisco, Eddie, Caitlin, Roy, or Laurel. Destined by name to suit up.

 

With Laurel, I didn't know much detail about the Black Canary, her mythology, or her real identity. But I knew that she was a superhero, a freaking AMAZING fighter, a really good leader, and the designated/classic Green Arrow love interest (a la Lois/Clark, Batman/Catwoman, Peter Parker/MJ). But the show was never interested in showing anything outside the love interest aspect. In S01, I didn't get the impression the show was moving away from that. Why would anyone focus on the love interest part when the badass fighter is so much more interesting?! Then, Sara in S02 made it seem like that part was never gonna happen. I'm still annoyed the show waited two seasons and killed a perfectly good character to jump-start this, but I'm happy they're moving in the right direction with Laurel despite the frustrating missteps this season. The blank slate's gone, but thank everything something related to her name and destined identity is finally happening. I'm not too optimistic considering the show's track record with Laurel and penchant for handwaving training and abilities, but I could be interested in this transformation even after two seasons of nothing but UGH. Hopefully. Maybe. 

[wonderwall]

http://wolframandholt.tumblr.com/post/101361096413#post-notes

 

I really like this idea for Laurel. BUT it requires the writers to scrap the whole "Laurel is a do-gooder, and is an angel at heart" crap they try to pull over once in a while. I can totally see her as a better version of Amanda Waller lol

[slayer2]

There was a moment during the dinner of doom when I felt very, very sorry for laurel. It was when lance said something to Dinah to the tune of (paraphrasing) "why wouldn't you want to move back, Sara is back home now."

I wonder how many times laurel was made to feel like she wasn't enough while Sara was gone, too...not enough to keep her dad sober, or her mom there. She wasn't enough to keep Oliver's d in his pants, no matter how much she wanted to be. There were so many moments with great potential for laurel to connect with Sara, connect with her family, connect with Oliver. The thing that is so frustrating is that they never capitalized on them, and the entire characterization fell flat. In part because they never (as is becoming the theme) let the character moments happen. It's annoying, mostly because the show is becoming boarder line unwatchable bc of it. Sometimes I can see shadows of what they could have done with the character ...things that would have made her an excellent character. But they chose to give whiplash to us instead.

It's true they do have a lot to mine. I don't know why they don't do it. It just doesn't bother me that much because I only occasionally ship Olicity so the threat of Lauriver means nothing to me. Furthermore I came up on General Hospital, Sonny (shoot my wife in the head while giving birth to my child) Corinthos is the worst character to ever exist on television, even Lana Lang does not compare. I've just learned to focus in the characters I like more and ignore the ones I don't. I won't even watch GH anymore so it can't hurt me.

Do I wish they wrote Laurel better? Yes. Am I confused by Katie Cassidy's acting choices on this show? God, yes but it doesn't send me into a rage as (like I said Sonny Corinthos) and I've got Oliver to watch (although lately he's painful) the Merlyns and Felcity's bizzareness to enjoy.

It's not like Laurel is the centre of the Arrow universe or even Ollie's universe like Lana was. He doesn't put her before his superherodom. Hopefully they sort her out to the likeable character she was in Season 1 but if not...oh well. This is the show that gave me the Huntress and Caity Lotz so I'll take what I can get, for everything else....there's The Flash.

Edited because spellcheck insists that Caity is a *City.

Edited November 30, 2014 by slayer2

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

Furthermore I came up on General Hospital, Sonny (shoot my wife in the head while giving birth to my child) Corinthos is the worst character to ever exist on television, even Lana Lang does not compare.

@slayer We may not always agree about Laurel becoming Black Canary, but I agree with you 1000% about Mr. Corinthos.  I would watch an entire 23 episode season of Laurel doing nothing, but buckling and unbuckling her Canary costume for 42 minutes a week, rather than watch one minute of Sonny onscreen. :)

[calliope1975]

Furthermore I came up on General Hospital, Sonny (shoot my wife in the head while giving birth to my child) Corinthos is the worst character to ever exist on television, even Lana Lang does not compare. I've just learned to focus in the characters I like more and ignore the ones I don't. I won't even watch GH anymore so it can't hurt me.

 

For awhile, it was a breakneck race between Sonny Corinthos and Babe Carey on which fictional character I hated more. Sadly, Laurel briefly entered that arena last year, but I've learned to just ignore her. The rare times I tune into GH now, just seeing Sonny irritates me. 

[statsgirl]

Co-sign me for the Sonny Corinthos hate, especially if you'll add Jason Morgan (and Shawn, now that the old Jason is gone).

 

But some of the things that made me hate Sonny -- that everyone said how wonderful he is even while the character on my screen was awful; that his pain was greater than anyone else's; that he justified what he did because he was always right; that he never paid the price for what he did wrong; but most of all that the showrunner was in love with him and he got more stories and screentime than he deserved -- is what I don't like about Laurel too.

 

It's true that Laurel isn't the centre of the show though, even though she gets more storylines and islands that I care to watch.

[KirkB]

It's not like Laurel is the centre of the Arrow universe or even Ollie's universe like Lana was. He doesn't put her before his superherodom. Hopefully they sort her out to the likeable character she was in Season 1 but if not...oh well. This is the show that gave me the Huntress and Caity Lotz so I'll take what I can get, for everything else....there's The Flash.

 

Except for the fact I'm not particularly enthused by the Huntress, I pretty much agree. Even making her the Canary and the semi star of the show for a few episodes doesn't bother me as much as much as it could since I genuinely don't care about the character, but I'll admit that's pushing it even for me. And yes, I have enjoyed the Flash so much more than Arrow this season it's ridiculous.

[olicityfan25]

I know a lot of people don't like going to this site so I'll just copy and paste from GATV

 

In Support of Laurel Lance (lol)

Laurel Lance is soon to follow in the footsteps of her sister and take up the mantle of her comic counterpart as Black Canary.

Many are left scratching their heads at such a development, while others are downright disdainful.

For me, this is an enticing development, even in as much as it portends possible disaster for Laurel. It’s a natural progression from where the character has been growing since the latter part of last year.

 

Now, before rending us both asunder in blazing Mirakuru fury, allow me to explain.

 

First, the background. Laurel Lance has been something of a divisive character on Arrow from well near the beginning.

Even her name set off sparks amongst the comic fans, who would serve as the initial foundation of the viewing audience, awaiting the show. Laurel was a middle name distinction devised to separate mother Dinah from daughter Dinah, but even daughter has been known primarily as Dinah Lance throughout her existence. Despite justified narrative reason for the younger Lance to go by her middle name in this adaptation, it still set many uneasy.

 

There was excitement of the character’s involvement in the show, as the hero Black Canary is as much a part of the Green Arrow mythos (aside from her own) as his infamous boxing glove arrows. Yet, that began to wither as details came out: Laurel was a lawyer who worked for the cloyingly-named CNRI non-profit organization and would not, at least initially, be a costumed hero. In fact, it wasn’t clear that she would ever put on a mask in this take, though they left open the possibility that her journey could — could — lead her down that path at some point. She would still be a love interest of Oliver’s but now serve as a point in a triangle between Oliver and newly realized best friend Tommy Merlyn. When the pilot aired, it reinforced all of these issues, and many weren’t happy.

 

A writers’ summit needs to be held and something dreadfully needs to be done about Laurel. She needs her own arc(s), goals, and identity outside of being a romantic interest. The character is getting lost in the shuffle and Katie Cassidy appears game for much more than they are giving her to do.”
– Matt Tucker, “Vendetta,” S1, EP8

 

Surprise, surprise—it’s another story where Laurel is irrelevant and Katie Cassidy is underused.”
– Derek B. Gayle, “Year’s End,” S1, EP9

 

Going in to the show, I really wanted Laurel to be my favorite, but she has been stuck too far in the background…” – Stephanie Hall
“…Cassidy is wasted in a role poorly written, for the most part, so far.” – Matt

“…blandness through-and-through.” – Derek

Team GATV Roundtable: So How Good is Arrow, Part 1

…frankly, I don’t see much doing for Laurel for the rest of the season. She’ll be included but I don’t see anything substantial for the character for the rest of the year.” – Matt

“…enough meat to chew from all the bigger players doing their things that Laurel’s problems play as kind of trite in comparison.” – Derek
Team GATV Roundtable: Looking Ahead to Arrow Season 1’s Second Half

 

I don’t know if Laurel is boring or Katie is just bored, but half the time she’s on screen I’m just pretty apathetic.” – Craig Byrne

 

“Part of the problem for Laurel is that any decent storylines for her have gotten shot down.” – Derek

“She has a long way to go before she makes me believe she would rock the fishnets.” – Stephanie
Team GATV Roundtable: Looking Back at Season 1

 

The way I look at it is we want to care about Helena Bertinelli and Dinah Laurel Lance, two big characters in the DCU, and what we’re getting isn’t doing them justice.”
– Matt, Team GATV Roundtable: Looking Back at Season 1, Page 2 of 2

 

…she needs some attitude or warmth or something to give her a distinguishable personality. To me she’s come off as flat … Katie Cassidy has a great personality that I wish would shine through … I kind of wished they had explored Laurel as a lawyer more because she was in that way fighting crime and I loved that idea, but it was so minimally shown that the sentiment was lost.”
– Stephanie, Team GATV Roundtable: Looking Forward to Season 2, Part One

 

…it also demotes Laurel back to irrelevant love interest status, which has been her big problem from the get-go.”
– Derek, “Betrayal,” S1, EP13

…but in a certain sense they’ve robbed Laurel of one of her main character motivations. As she’s but a sketch at this point, it’s hard to see how this does any favors.”
– Matt, “Salvation,” S1, EP18

…Cassidy is plenty of fun as the younger, unscarred Laurel, though it’s a little unnerving that she seems more natural here than in her baggage-heavy adult form.”

– Derek, “The Undertaking,” S1, EP21

…there just isn’t that inimitable spark between Stephen Amell’s Oliver and Katie Cassidy’s Laurel that makes this pair memorable together or draws the audience in to care about … it just doesn’t sweep one off of their feet.”
– Matt, “Darkness on the Edge of Town,” S1, EP22

 

The above comments were taken from our own discussions and reviews here at GreenArrowTV, demonstrating that we fell down on the side of the disappointed as well. Of all the things the show seemed to be doing well — particularly once it hit its stride in the second half of that first season — Laurel seemed to be its glaring miscalculation. So often, the female lead on a male-driven superhero series tends to not be written well, an unfortunate trend that Arrow appeared to be continuing. It’s not entirely clear why, but they too often become plot devices rather than fully-fleshed characters. Smallville‘s Lana Lang is a perfect, and lamentable, example.

 

What made us even more flummoxed was that they’d cast Katie Cassidy in the role, an actor who had shown wit, presence, and fire in previous roles, but were giving her relatively little to do. Whatever your thoughts on the series themselves, revisit some of her past work on Supernatural, the rebooted Melrose Place, and Gossip Girl, and you can see why she was given the part. Yet, here she was reduced to being a ball of yarn tossed between two friends by the end of the first season. It was unflattering for the actress and ill-fitting of the character. The juiciest storyline of the season for her, the return of her years-gone mother on an errant quest to find then-thought-dead-but-maybe-alive sister Sara, failed to hit for whatever reasons. Many began to write the character off.

 

At the start of the second season, major course correction seemed to be afoot. They’d hadn’t taken much advantage of the career they’d given Laurel in the first season — social-crusading defense lawyer should’ve sparked far more story elements than it did — so the fact that she was now with the District Attorney’s office and hunting down the hooded vigilante offered tremendous grist for the mill. Sure, it was a bit baffling having a defense attorney switch sides to prosecution, but it felt like proactive movement of the character amidst a very reactive period. And then, three episodes in, that story was done.

 

Laurel was lost to the wind and shuffle again, resurfacing in a plausibly based yet ham-fistedly executed addiction storyline at midseason. It was clear there was a decided effort to tear Laurel down, to even make the character unlikable, and eventually bottom out so that she could rebuild herself. The concept is solid, but with the season rightfully so focused on the Oliver and Slade story arc, the knee-jerk actions of this plotline popping through failed to delivery a poignancy that would endear people to the change coming out of it. A well-developed character who the audience is attached to and cares for are also necessary to make such an arc work. As Laurel wasn’t, this seemed to alienate people even further.

This is where it began to change for me, where realization hit.

 

While they were initially coy about her heroic destiny, showrunners Marc Guggenheim, Andrew Kreisberg, and Greg Berlanti, have always championed that Laurel’s story was a journey. What seems to confuse a lot of people is that, while present-day Oliver Queen is five years into his “origin” at the start of the series, Laurel is at the beginning. Even an experienced Oliver has gone through quite a bit of change in the years since his “five years in hell.” Laurel is but into year three of her own transformation.

Yes, the point must be conceded that Laurel’s journey hasn’t been an elegant one so far. Sadly, though there were good intentions, that inelegance has too often not been by design. A journey can be an ugly one, but if it’s due more to poor handling rather than the trials of the journey itself, it’s very easy to see why many just don’t have it in them to devote time to Laurel’s path any longer. We’ve certainly spent our time, as best we can, holding the writers accountable.

 

The irony to me, here, is that it’s just at the time when the inadequacies are being addressed properly that the goodwill seems to have been burned up.

 

Blast Radius

What I came to like about Laurel in the latter part of Season 2 came from her reaction to Slade telling her the truth about Oliver. Even more so, her realization that the Canary figure that had now been fighting at the Arrow’s side was her very own sister. Slade’s intention was to drive a further wedge into the personal relationships in Oliver’s world, part of his plan to tear down every aspect of his life as perceived penance for costing Shado her life. Instead, Laurel became fiercely protective of both. She saw the struggles that both were contending with and felt pride in them.

 

What’s more is that, even with all issues they had between them, Laurel saw in Oliver and Sara an inspiration that helped lift her from the place she was in. This wasn’t a cure-all salve, though, and one of the things I’m happy they continued into Season 3 is that Laurel is still going to meetings for her addiction. She’s still in recovery. One of the cruelest twists of addiction, as well as mental illness, is the misguided belief that you can be cured and move on with your life. Treatment and recovery is an ongoing process, and it was good that they didn’t just dismiss that from her life just because she was in on Team Arrow’s secrets now.

 

[statsgirl]

That's just the first page.  There's a page 2 as well.  I was going to quote it but it's long, long, long, and pretty much the same stuff, basically they're so excited that Katie Cassidy will finally have the decent writing to make Laurel into the Black Canary.

Edited December 2, 2014 by statsgirl

[Sakura12]

The problem is there still hasn't been any decent writing for Laurel or its still the acting that is the problem.

I think most don't care and just want the character with the right names stunt double to kick ass. Without caring about anything else.

[Danny Franks]

So is all that a story about being careful what you wish for? People saying Laurel needs her own arcs and more time to become worthwhile? Bet they're wishing they'd happily embraced her pointlessness now.

 

The thing (the newest thing, at least) that they will never overcome with Laurel, no matter how good the writing or acting, is that they killed off a character that was more popular to enable this entire journey for her. They're putting her in the shoes of a dead woman that much of the audience liked more. That's doomed to failure. It's not uncommon in DC's comic books, for someone to take on the mantle of a departed hero, but guess what? It never sticks. Sooner or later, the readers want the original back, and DC comes up with some way of making it happen.

 

Bruce Wayne always ends up being Batman, Hal Jordan always ends up being the Green Lantern, Barry Allen always ends up being The Flash, even Barbara Gordon ended up being Batgirl again.

[statsgirl]

Except the pattern of this show has been to have an original character (Yao Fei, Billy Wintergreen) who then gets replaced by the real hero (Oliver, Slade).  That's the justification for Laurel becoming the Black Canary now -- it's time for the true superhero to come to fruition, and many people are happy she's finally getting her chance.

 

The thing (the newest thing, at least) that they will never overcome with Laurel, no matter how good the writing or acting, is that they killed off a character that was more popular to enable this entire journey for her.

That's part of the problem, but I think the bigger problem is that Sara/Caity Lotz was just plain better at the job.  If Sara had been a half-baked Black Canary, like Yao Fei was for the Hood or Billy Wintergreen for Deathstroke, and Laurel/KC do a superior job, it might have worked.  But personally I don't see that happening.

[Sakura12]

How can people be happy, when she has no reason to want to be a hero other then everyone else is. That's such a stupid reason, if I was a fan of the character I'd be upset at that.

To me a character should be more then a name.

[manbearpig]

Billy Wintergreen and Yao Fei were barely on the show, too, while Sara was in most of the episodes last season and had a pretty memorable arc. I'm a fan of Laurel, and I'm glad that she's getting something to do. But I loved Sara too and think her death has been mishandled and unnecessary. There were other ways of doing a Laurel becomes Black Canary storyline without killing off Sara (I've seen many people suggest a kidnapping).

[statsgirl]

But would the audience accept Laurel as the Black Canary if Sara were still alive?

[manbearpig]

But would the audience accept Laurel as the Black Canary if Sara were still alive?

 

I have no idea. I'm sure there is a section of the audience that will never accept her as Black Canary. The whole situation is just strange to me. I do think the writers had a vague plan to make Laurel the Black Canary since the beginning of the show, but at times it's felt like they've done everything they could to prevent her from being a viable vigilante. Sara was so believable and the show really lucked out by finding Lotz, who handled the stunt work beautifully, but she fit the role so well that making Laurel as believable is going to be an uphill battle.

Edited December 2, 2014 by manbearpig

[writersblock51]

Wasn't Sara (or Caity Lotz) supposed to become Ravenger? 

 

 

But would the audience accept Laurel as the Black Canary if Sara were still alive?

I certainly wouldn't. I can't accept her under any circumstances.

 

I've read enough of GATV's recaps and tweets to pretty much put their opinions in the "But comics!" pile of trying to justify this character on this show.  They are like many fans who insist that the show adhere to some kind of comic canon without acknowledging that comic canon is largely a moving, ever shifting target.

 

I'm familiar enough with the Black Canary comics "of old" to recognize a few truths that simply do NOT apply to Laurel on the show:

 

- accountable for her actions and decisions

- definitive (NOT wishy washy)

- not an addict

- very skilled at martial arts, hand to hand combat

- snarky (but not bitchy) with a great sense of humor (ok, she can be a little bitchy at times)

 

The show could have and should have written Laurel differently from the beginning. But they chose this meandering, illogical and often puzzling path for her. KC's acting skills aside, the writing and plotting for Laurel has been atrocious.  At this point, I think the show is facing a no win scenario for her, and now KC's acting and stunt skills are being put to a very scrutinized test.

 

The EPs and writers may be patting themselves on the back for a job well done, finally, I don't know.  What I do know is that my respect and admiration for the comic book version of Black Canary died with Sara.  And there's just nothing I can foresee, espsecially with the spoilers that we know about, to make me feel differently about Laurel's version.  The show, character and actress have had 2 years to get a strong foundation built & established. I don't feel they've done anything remotely close to that.  Unfortunately for me, they seem to think they've solved the mystery, at all.

Edited December 2, 2014 by writersblock51

[formerlyfreedom]

Hey, all - just a reminder, let's keep in mind that posting entire articles/photo spreads/the like could raise copyright issues. Let's provide links, along with a paragraph or two that will help people know what's at the other end of the link.

 

Thanks!

[slayer2]

 

I think the show is facing a no win scenario for her, and now KC's acting and stunt skills are being put to a very scrutinized test.

I agree that they've put her in a terrible situation and that if Caity Lotz was at least mediocre in the role than she would have a far greater chance. But who and this stands for KC/EBR/JDG/KL could follow that? I really don't see a scenario where anyone could make a better Black Canary. At this point I'd be thinking of a recast because frankly I'm tired of hearing the complaints and Black Canary has to get here somehow. I'd ship her off to study the art of fighting and bring her back early Season 4 as a recast. The time away worked wonders for Thea, and they did the swap out with Sara, cut losses and keep it moving IMO.

Edited December 2, 2014 by slayer2

[manbearpig]

I think there's a huge difference between recasting Sara, a character who, IIRC, was in one short scene in season one, and recasting Laurel who's been on the show for it's entirety. I know recasting still happens on occasion, but usually with characters that have barely appeared on a show. I mean, Sarah Paulson played a younger version of Ellis Grey on Grey's Anatomy for one episode and I was still a little annoyed when they brought on another actress to play the character at that stage in her life six years later.

[wonderwall]

Does anyone else find it sort of weird that we're supposed to take Laurel's arc seriously now that she's training with Ted Grant, but Ted was easily defeated by Oliver with a ridiculous boxing glove arrow? I find it a little odd that the writers want us to believe that a woman in her 30s will become the greatest martial artist/fighter (and easily surpasses Oliver) by starting off her training with a man who is easily defeated by Oliver. I hope she isn't only trained by Ted Grant because IMO that would be quite ridiculous and difficult to believe. Now if they brought in better fighters than Oliver to push Laurel along, then fine. But then again, I don't want to waste more screen time on Laurel training because that's just ridiculously boring.

 

I agree in the sense that I'd much rather have Laurel be shipped off and then see her come back in late season 4 or early season 5 as a more seasoned fighter because her training scenes are really boring. It's just her hitting stuff/people and I don't see the fun in that because she's not in a life/death situation and she's not risking anything. I hope that there is an emotional journey she goes through in the first three episodes coming back though because that's something Laurel needs but I won't hold my breath. She needs to grow up because right now she's just acting like an entitled, selfish, ragey 10 year old. Unfortunately I won't tune into these episodes unless I see an overall positive reaction for the episodes. Sorry, I'm just not interested in Laurel. I gave her way too many chances and now I think I'm quite done with her character and I'm not really willing to give her another chance. 

Edited December 2, 2014 by wonderwall

[manbearpig]

I don't think we're supposed to assume that Laurel is going to surpass Oliver. The show is still called Arrow, and Oliver will presumably always be the most competent vigilante around. I mean, personally, I thought it was a little ridiculous that he could hold his own against both Nyssa and Malcolm in The Magician, but I just went with it anyway. I don't think the show wanted us to think that Sara was the greatest martial artist ever, either. I haven't read much comics with Black Canary, but I think, considering that Oliver is the lead, the Canary, any Canary, was always going to be a supporting character on the show, and having someone else surpass the lead was probably never gonna happen.

[slayer2]

I agree that they've put her in a terrible situation and that if Caity Lotz was at least mediocre in the role than she would have a far greater chance. But who and this stands for KC/EBR/JDG/KL could follow that? I really don't see a scenario where anyone could make a better Black Canary. At this point I'd be thinking of a recast because frankly I'm tired of hearing the complaints and Black Canary has to get here somehow. I'd ship her off to study the art of fighting and bring her back early Season 4 as a recast. The time away worked wonders for Thea, and they did the swap out with Sara, cut losses and keep it moving IMO.

 

They did it with Roseanne, hell they are doing now on The Originals  and quite against my consent they basically recast half the cast. I think with all the vitriol aimed at Laurel and poor KC that people would accept it and honestly I think it best at this point. I can't imagine what it must be like fighting against the grain as KC has had to with the terrible things said about her. There's no way in hell TPTB are writing Laurel out so a recast is IMO best for everyone.

Edited December 2, 2014 by slayer2

[dtissagirl]

I was reading this discussion, and it reminded me of a quote from Snow Crash:

Until a man is twenty-five, he still thinks, every so often, that under the right circumstances he could be the baddest motherfucker in the world. If I moved to a martial-arts monastery in China and studied real hard for ten years. If my family was wiped out by Colombian drug dealers and I swore myself to revenge. If I got a fatal disease, had one year to live, and devoted it to wiping out street crime. If I just dropped out and devoted my life to being bad.

Hiro used to feel this way, too, but then he ran into Raven. In a way, this was liberating. He no longer has to worry about being the baddest motherfucker in the world. The position is taken.

They gave so many characters the "right circumstances" to turn badass on this show. But they have never really wrote the right circumstances for Laurel. And they still aren't.

I don't understand why they didn't raise the stakes of Sara's murder mystery to move Laurel's arc. Nobody is in danger from the killer because he/she hasn't killed anybody else, so, really, there's no rush to figure it out. Instead we get Laurel stewing in rage/anger/what have you , that she can't release by fighting crime outside of the law because she doesn't know how to do it.

If only the killer was the one framing Ted, you know? Or attempted to kill Quentin, or Laurel herself. Or even rando people just dying, same way as Sara's, and *Quentin* started investigating, which would have threatened Laurel's secret. At least then we'd feel a sense of urgency that Laurel needed to figure this out asap because lives were at stake, or her lying to her father actually mattered. But there's nothing, so it's just a complete snoozefest.

Edited December 2, 2014 by dancingnancy

[wonderwall]

I don't think we're supposed to assume that Laurel is going to surpass Oliver. The show is still called Arrow, and Oliver will presumably always be the most competent vigilante around. I mean, personally, I thought it was a little ridiculous that he could hold his own against both Nyssa and Malcolm in The Magician, but I just went with it anyway. I don't think the show wanted us to think that Sara was the greatest martial artist ever, either. I haven't read much comics with Black Canary, but I think, considering that Oliver is the lead, the Canary, any Canary, was always going to be a supporting character on the show, and having someone else surpass the lead was probably never gonna happen.

Lol that's sort of disappointing to the comic fans... I mean, I'm fine thinking Laurel will never surpass Sara or Oliver... Although I am interested in seeing how she can contribute to the team/the show if she can't bring in anything new. She's not getting the canary cry, she's not going to be a better fighter than Oliver, she's not going to go back to being a lawyer (because it's obvious they're not heading that way), she's not going to be a tech expert like Felicity, she also isn't a forensics expert, she's not a strategist considering she rarely ever considers the consequences of her actions, nor is she Oliver's apprentice... I don't know, the options for Laurel seem really really really limited. 

 

It's like the writers cut Laurel off at her knees before she even started trying. And the comic fans want the writers to 'respect' the source material... How is this respecting the source material? IDK. I'm definitely interested in seeing where she's heading. Not because I'm interested in Laurel, but because I'm more interested in seeing how the writers try to find a way out of the big hole they dug themselves in regards to Laurel. 

Edited December 2, 2014 by wonderwall

[manbearpig]

I feel like the writers are actively keeping Laurel away from interesting storylines, though. Her vendetta against the arrow in early season two had a lot of potential and her unreasonable hatred of him at that point was fun and led to that nice cliffhanger with the swat team in 2x02, and then that storyline was pushed aside and Laurel pretty much vanished into a pill-taking, booze-swilling haze.

 

And then there was the Blood storyline, which I really enjoyed. Investigative Laurel was a lot of fun for me. I liked seeing the character take an active role in things that were happening instead of standing on the sidelines, but they couldn't really out Blood's true motivation until the end of the season so that had to be stopped.

 

I also think that Sara's return and the Canary's arrival could've been a way to integrate Laurel into the main action; i.e. she could have bumped into the Canary at some point, actually recognised that it was her sister, looked into it and then discovered Oliver's secret too. It bothered me that she had to find out from Slade. And it also bothered me that she didn't find out that Sara was alive until the mid point of season two, which is even more upsetting now because the Lance sisters had one of my favourite dynamics on the show and the writers barely explored it, and it's not as if we can see their relationship grow now that Sara is dead.

 

I am excited to see what happens with Laurel this season though.

Edited December 2, 2014 by manbearpig

[statsgirl]

I don't think they're actively keeping Laurel away from the interesting storylines so much as realizing that what she has done in them hasn't worked.  The CNRI ones were a wash, going back to collect the files during the earthquake got her more hated than appreciated, she was useless with the Dollmaker (could she have done Felicity's role? I don't know) and Brother Blood was kind of a mess, although not as much a mess as Isabel was.  To compensate, I think they tried to give her her own arcs (e.g. addiction, Birds of Prey) but that failed too. 

 

Speaking of cutting off Laurel at the knees, I was wondering, why boxing?  I know it's comics! because Ted Grant is a boxer (do I have that right?) but ever since Bruce Lee made Kato a martial arts artist in the old Green Hornet show, every super fighter has to have some kind of marital arts training because if all you have is boxing, you're going to get your ass handed to you.

 

So it's three episodes/weeks that Laurel has been working on boxing with Ted Grant, and the minute he tries a different move, she's flat on her back.  How is she going to get the fighting moves she needs to even start as the Black Canary in time?  Right now, she'd be a huge liability on Team Arrow.  Even Felicity beating up Cooper does better.

[wonderwall]

I am excited to see what happens with Laurel this season though.

I'm happy that you are :) I wish I shared the same sentiment! 

[Pyramid]

I really don't give a shit about the comics. I'm watching a tv show, not reading a comic. I came to this show because I'd vaguely heard of Green Arrow through social osmosis and thought I'd give it a go. 

For me Laurel is a character that has failed in every way, and I just don't care about her. The fact that my tv show is getting screwed up because of a misplaced devotion to a totally different medium really rips my knitting. If you want Laurel Lance as your Black Canary then read the comics.

I wished she worked as a character for me, I really do, but right now I wish they'd just wave a cheery fuckity bye at her.

 

[slayer2]

I agree with the poster upthread that said of course Laurel isn't going to be a better fighter than Ollie on this show it's called Arrow. Never in this history of Angel did Buffy come over and kick his ass because the show was called Angel. Could Buffy kick his ass? Fuck yeah and she has on Buffy the Vampire Slayer but the show was called Angel.

 

I think Barry Allen could kick Ollie's ass six ways from Sunday duh-doy. He has superspeed and super-healing and god knows what else. But they will never show him besting Oliver even in the Arrow vs The Flash thing tonight (I'm rooting for Flash always) because that would undermine the Arrow franchise. Until or unless Black Canary gets her own show for which Oliver visits, she will never best him in a fight. To me conceivably Sara should have bested him as well since she was trained by fucking assassins but she didn't (I like to think of it as holding back personally). Just because Black Canary doesn't best him on the show doesn't mean she isn't going to be the best female fighter in the DC world. Even with that she still can't hold a candle to Wonder Woman (and I still prefer Catwoman) but whatever.

 

 

 

Lol that's sort of disappointing to the comic fans

 

 

Not really. I'm a comic book fan, doesn't bother me, plus the comic book fans have learned to accept a lot of things that aren't true or don't exist in the Arrow/Canary canon Exhibit A: Felicity Smoak.

 

 

Ted was easily defeated by Oliver with a ridiculous boxing glove arrow?

This bothered me too. I just told myself that Oliver wouldn't have had the upperhand without that arrow because Wildcat had him going for a while but honestly this is the dude who trained Black Canary and Superman as well so really these folks should have thought that fight through. It was an anomalous fail by the fight co-ordinator for sure.

Edited December 2, 2014 by slayer2

[Sakura12]

Sara and Oliver never fought each other we don't know if she could beat him or not. Sara was trained by the LOA, that makes her a formidable fighter. Laurel's being trained by a boxer that got taken out with a a stupid looking boxing glove arrow. 

 

BC is supposed to be one of the best marital artists in the DC verse not just the best female one. They've failed with Laurel because they choose to have her be at a white belt level at 30 years old. I think babyCatwoman in Gotham could probably kick Laurel's ass right now. Laurel is so far behind in skill level that it'll take years for her to match the skills Oliver is at now and by that time he'll once again be well beyond her. She'll always be playing catch up and that is not a Black Canary I want to see. 

 

I know this is TV, but like I said before they can't show it taking Oliver and Sara years of hard core training probably 24/7 then show Laurel take an hour or two of just boxing lessons for a few months and make her a master martial artist. There's no kicking in boxing, so we should never see Laurel kick her opponents.  Then they have her using a freaking police night stick with fingerless gloves. 

 

I don't know maybe they are trying to make Laurel's Black Canary a joke. That's what it looks like to me. 

 

[slayer2]

 

Laurel is so far behind in skill level that it'll take years for her to match the skills Oliver is at now and by that time he'll once again be well beyond her. She'll always be playing catch up and that is not a Black Canary I want to see.

 

 

Well it's too late now to do anything about it so it's time to move on from there and focus on salvaging what's there, There's no time machine to go back and we can complain about it until the cows come home but unless they do one of those "It was all a dream" ala B.I.G then it pretty much is what it is.

[Starfish35]

Well, no, it's not too late actually. They could still write her out to pursue hard-core training offscreen. That stays (mostly) true to the Black Canary story as I understand it (yes she started younger, but didn't she travel and learn from a lot of different people?), and solves the problem of her trying to keep up with the team onscreen.

I just doubt they're actually going to do that.

[slayer2]

Well, no, it's not too late actually. They could still write her out to pursue hard-core training offscreen. That stays (mostly) true to the Black Canary story as I understand it (yes she started younger, but didn't she travel and learn from a lot of different people?), and solves the problem of her trying to keep up with the team onscreen.

I just doubt they're actually going to do that.

That's what I've been advocating. Bring her back mid-season 4.

[wonderwall]

That's what I've been advocating. Bring her back mid-season 4.

Maybe bring her back as a recurring character, let her build her relationships with the team, then have her on full time mid season 5. I honestly think that would be best. 

[Starfish35]

I see no reason to bring her back at all on any kind of a full time basis, assuming they were to write her out in the first place (and as I've said, I know that's doubtful). She could be like the Huntress - show up once or twice a year. As cool as the Black Canary character was (in Sara's hands), this show does not actually need a full time Black Canary. The show is Arrow, not Arrow/Canary. Even with Sara's greater popularity, many preferred her to stay recurring instead of full time. And beyond that, once she's out, why bring back your most "polarizing" character? (as Matt Roush calls her.)

Besides, how often do shows write out full time cast members only to take them back a season or two later without some kind of behind the scenes drama going on? I know they did with Barrowman, but I think that's the rare exception.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Starfish35

[slayer2]

Maybe bring her back as a recurring character, let her build her relationships with the team, then have her on full time mid season 5. I honestly think that would be best. 

I'm fine with this. It adheres to canon. Gives KC time to get even more fit (which she's been working hard at) and gives her a chance to take the character a new direction. If she comes back behaving completely different mid-season 4 no one would question it and I think that's what Laurel needs right now. A return to the softness of season 1 but the toughness of someone who can handle themselves. Give her a chance to work out her insecurities. This way they can work out the season 3 sads and kinks with the stupid whodunit plot and flesh out what they wanted to show wrt Oliver and the Suicide Squad. I think a character like Black Canary is best used creeping up from behind.

 

The only problem is it requires KC to basically shut down her life for a year, so recurring season 3 return mid season 4 would be less of a general fuck-up for the actor. Nevermind just read that Barrowman did this so it's totally possible.

Edited December 3, 2014 by slayer2

[Starfish35]

They did it with Barrowman because he's part of this season's plot line, like Manu Bennett was a regular last year. Once his storyline with Thea is over, I expect he'll either be killed off for good or drop back to occasional recurring. That kind of situation wouldn't apply to KC. There really would be no reason for her to be brought back, other than the EPs really really wanting their Arrow/Canary show, and if that's what they're going for, I doubt they would run the risk of writing her out for such an extended period in the first place and letting the audience get used to a show without her.

But this is all hypothetical anyway, since I doubt KC is going anywhere.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Starfish35

[slayer2]

What we were doing was offering solutions as opposed to complaining about it. After awhile the complaining gets tired and redundant, positive solutions to the problem however hypothetical are far more progressive.

Edited December 3, 2014 by slayer2

[statsgirl]

The only problem is it requires KC to basically shut down her life for a year, so recurring season 3 return mid season 4 would be less of a general fuck-up for the actor. Nevermind just read that Barrowman did this so it's totally possible.

She could take on other projects and they could schedule her Arrow appearances around them, as they do with Colin Salmon.

 

I doubt it's going to happen though unless something drastic happens behind the scenes.

[pivot]

That's what I've been advocating. Bring her back mid-season 4.

Laurel's been a useless character since the end of season 1. They should just write her out permanently. There's no reason to bring her back again.

The only reason she is still on the show is because the writers are in love with the BC character and/or KC and they don't want to address the problem that's been plaguing the show since the beginning. She's by far the weakest actor on the show and has no chemistry with any part of the cast. She should just be cut.

[Betweenthisandthat]

I also think that Sara's return and the Canary's arrival could've been a way to integrate Laurel into the main action; i.e. she could have bumped into the Canary at some point, actually recognised that it was her sister, looked into it and then discovered Oliver's secret too. It bothered me that she had to find out from Slade. And it also bothered me that she didn't find out that Sara was alive until the mid point of season two, which is even more upsetting now because the Lance sisters had one of my favourite dynamics on the show and the writers barely explored it, and it's not as if we can see their relationship grow now that Sara is dead.

I am excited to see what happens with Laurel this season though.

 

 

I came here because of a conversation on another thread, and decided to add my two cents since it's not as disturbingly Laurel-hating as I once saw or thought.  Or my initial shock has worn off from a few months ago. I did see there was some Sonny Corinthos bashing, and as an ex-viewer of GH and that I can understand. (:  Now he is awful.

 

Laurel isn't my favorite character on the show, but I enjoyed her a lot in season 1 and I want better for her than what she's gotten in the last two seasons.  She was angry in season 1 but Tommy brought out her vulnerability and she was already looking out people in The Glades through her legal work.  I liked that a lot.  While I'm not a Laurel and Oliver shipper, I thought their shared history was interesting.  Manbearpig, I agree with your assessment of how the show has treated Laurel.  I think she has potential and I've enjoyed the times when her arc overlaps with the larger one of the show, but the writers prevent that from going as far as it should over and over again.  KC isn't that bad either.  I don't see the cast as being all that great at acting, except for Susanna Thompson and John Barrowman.  They have charisma but KC doesn't stick out to me as the weakest link to me.

 

I don't always understand the choices this show makes.  I think killing Sara off was a bad idea because I liked the Laurel and Sara sisterhood and what it could have been but the show didn't do her or itself any favors in casting her as The Canary only to get rid of her and confuse the Black Canary origins story.  It's almost like the didn't know what they were doing or where they were headed or wanted it to be needlessly complicated.  Laurel should be the Black Canary though. Source material should have some weight, and fans will either learn to be okay with it, ignore it, or watch something else.  Or forever complain whenever Laurel is on screen, even for 30 seconds.  It's a life choice.  I doubt the show will get rid of the character, the Black Canary, or KC so in the end she's here to stay. Maybe if the ratings tank something might change, but I'd be surprised if they did.  Malcolm learned to fight when he was older although he went away for two years to train. Her two years will have to be onscreen.

 

I'm curious to see how and if the writers can integrate Laurel more into the show as potentially one of the team.  Why does she suit up?  If she's got a demanding day job, will she have time to fight at a moment's notice?  I don't know how this is going to work out, but that is one of the reasons I'm still watching.  

Edited December 4, 2014 by Betweenthisandthat

[tv echo]

The Laurel character was ill-conceived from the get go, both as the future Black Canary and as Oliver's originally intended love interest. 

 

The show started with Laurel as a 27-year-old lawyer, with minimal self-defense training (as evidenced by the past 2-1/2 seasons).  The EPs could at least have made her a cop with cop training (like Cupid's SWAT training), plus a back story that had her taking martial arts lessons starting from childhood (like Iris West's boxing lessons) or at least starting during the five years after Oliver & Sara 'died'.  Now she's a 30-year-old lawyer just starting to take boxing lessons.  A lawyer's job is mostly sedentary.   Assuming she's working full-time as an ADA, she should be spending most of her time sitting at a desk, reading, writing and talking on the phone, while squeezing in an hour here and there at the gym in her limited spare time.

 

The love interest set-up was no better.  The very first episode showed Oliver cheating on Laurel with her sister, and then their cold, hostile relationship.  Then Laurel is dating Oliver's best friend.  The casting didn't help either.  The actress playing Laurel should have chemistry with the actor playing Oliver, but KC doesn't have on-screen chemistry with SA in my opinion.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

The Brave and The Bold showed why I have never been able to get with Laurel.  The line to Oliver "I heard The Arrow was seen in Central City" could have been played a number of ways.  The way KC said it, it sounded like she was scolding Oliver for not getting her approval beforehand, just as her earlier conversation with Quentin sounded like she was telling him he wasn't doing a good enough job as police captain.    She reminds me of my grade five teacher who still wore nylons with perfectly straight seams (I have no idea where she got them), and somehow no matter how hard we tried, we just couldn't do well enough to live up to her standards.

 

 

I'm curious to see how and if the writers can integrate Laurel more into the show as potentially one of the team.

I think they could have done it more easily in the early parts of this season -- she invites Oliver to Quentin's announcement but we find out she's already told Diggle and Felicity and asked them to keep it a secret to surprise Oliver; when she's in the Arrow cave to go after Sara's killer, she's polite to Diggle and Felicity, in Corto Maltese she asks Felicity for a favor instead of telling her to do it.  Most recently, she told Oliver that she's not on his team so he doesn't get to be the boss of her.  That was two episodes before the "the Arrow was in Central City" scene.

 

At this point, I can think of two ways Laurel can be incorporated:  Diggle, Felicity and Roy feel sorry for her so they let her join their fight, or she walks in and joins and there's no build-up or explanation as to how or why she's there. I think the second is more likely since the EPs don't seem to want to spend time on the relationships between Laurel and anyone in the lair except Oliver.

[writersblock51]

The Brave and The Bold showed why I have never been able to get with Laurel.  The line to Oliver "I heard The Arrow was seen in Central City" could have been played a number of ways.  The way KC said it, it sounded like she was scolding Oliver for not getting her approval beforehand, just as her earlier conversation with Quentin sounded like she was telling him he wasn't doing a good enough job as police captain.   

 

Oliver's response seemed defensive, which also emphasized, to me, that her tone came off as more accusatory than anything else.  There was no need for the exchange to be written that way.

 

I would have much rather she not be in that scene at all. Her tone with Quentin irked me, too.  She seems to forget he's been a cop for a lot longer than she's been a lawyer.

 

I don't know how she'd fit well into Team Arrow in Oliver's absence but I don't expect it to be smooth.  I also expect a lot of OOC behavior on the parts of Diggle, Felicity and Roy.

 

I think I'm just going to have a hard time mustering up any sympathy or good will as long as she chooses to keep her parents in the dark about what happened to Sara.  And when they find out, whenever that may be, I'm pretty sure she's going to be let off the hook pretty easily.

 

None of these actions will endear her to fans, IMO.  The fans she has will think she has been nobly trying to save her parents from greater heartache. Everyone else will wonder why the show is writing her this way.

[quarks]

The odd thing is, they had the perfect opportunity to integrate Laurel into the team - just have six bombs, instead of five.  Cut to Barry realizing he doesn't have enough people to cut the bombs at once; cut to Felicity calling Laurel, cut to Barry grabbing Laurel and throwing her in front of a bomb.  Allows Laurel to participate in the SIDEKICKS RULE moment, and gives her something she's almost never had: an actual heroic moment.  And show that yes, she can be intelligent, something the show tends not to show us.  Bonus: no awkwardness about lying to Laurel about yet another secret identity.  And since Barry seemed just fine with all of ARGUS now knowing the truth, I can't see him having a huge issue with Laurel knowing.

 

Instead, the show chose to make Roy, Cisco, Caitlin and Felicity heroes again. That's all great and I loved the scene.  But it leaves me watching the undevelopment of Laurel Lance with continued bafflement.  

 

Consider: we are now 54 episodes into this show, and Laurel Lance, apparently destined to be a hero, still hasn't had a major heroic moment, or for that matter, even a single unmitigated minor heroic moment - and remains the only regular character on either show without one. This includes outright villains (Slade, Malcolm); grey or questionable characters (Moira Queen, Harrison Wells); characters with potentially evil future journeys (Thea, Caitlin and Eddie); characters not aware of the hero's secret identity (Iris, Thea); and characters with no martial arts/weapons training (Tommy, Felicity, Cisco and Caitlin.) And also includes non-regular, supporting characters, some of whom are also villains (Deadshot, Sebastian Blood, mean metal dude over on Flash).

 

In other words, Laurel doesn't need to be trained in martial arts, aware of Oliver or Barry's identity, entirely on the side of good, or even be a major character in order to have a heroic moment. The writers - who are more or less the same on both shows - have proven perfectly capable of giving all of these people heroic moments: in a way, it's almost the point of both shows, that Oliver and Barry can't function alone: they need ordinary people as well, even if many of these ordinary people have highly specialized skills. 

 

But instead, Laurel has been put in a small group of characters who have appeared in more than one episode without doing anything heroic: Fyers, Isabel Rochev, Amanda Waller, Kate Spencer, Moira's attorney, Walter, Joanna, the various journalists, and Captain Singh over on Flash.  Notice anything about these characters? None of them (except possibly Singh) are/were on a heroic journey: and all of them (except arguably Walter) are either villains or minor characters or both. 

 

To be fair, Laurel has twice shouted at Oliver and Sara to get them to stop killing people - a goon with Oliver, Helena with Sara. She also bugged Blood's office last year and crashed her car this year.  But that's it: not a single YAY LAUREL STOPPED THE BAD GUY or defused a bomb or ran into a building/place/submarine to rescue someone or, well, anything of that nature.  Which for a minor character, or a villain, would be fine. For a character who apparently is supposed to become a major superhero, I find it strange. 

[Chaser]

The fans have come up with so many ways that the writers could bring Laurel into the A plot, ways that aren't shoehorned but make sense. I don't understand what the problem has been for the past two seasons (must notably S2). 

 

I'm starting to think its that they don't enjoy writing her. I think they like the character and they must have some faith in their vision, but I don't think they actually like writing her. 

[manbearpig]

I agree for the most part, but Laurel did save Oliver back when random cop who wasn't actually Brother Blood kidnapped her. Heroic might be the wrong word considering that she basically emptied that whole magazine into his back, though, but she did save the main character's life. I agree though, and there's been a whole bunch of moments where they could've given Laurel a heroic moment only to make her look incompetent.

 

Like in Home Invasion. I thought Laurel was pretty badass with the shotgun, then it turned out there was only one bullet in there because they wanted Oliver to save her. Even when she does help save the day she usually gets put in danger immediately afterwards anyway, like whatever was going on with the Mirakuru soldier back in one of the last episodes of season two when she followed Oliver and Team Arrow when they told her not to. I mean, she saved Oliver's life, sure, but then she needed his help immediately afterwards anyway.