Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[pootlus]

Well at least if she was sharing screen time with a coffin she wouldn't have to worry about being out-acted.

[bluebonnet]

Is anyone else wondering if Laurel is going to hero worship so hard when she finds out the hero is poor?  She got moody when Tommy didn't have the cash to get seated quickly.  Will she get angry that Oliver doesn't have money to even take her to McD's? 

[wonderwall]

I don't think so because the writers have been Retconning Laurel like crazy. They don't want her to look like some gold-digging ass in season 3

Edited May 26, 2014 by wonderwall

[Password]

I would thoroughly enjoy her being a gold digging woman. Since we don't see why she loved Oliver in the first place why not explore that. We already think she's a horrible pointless character, take advantage of that and let her grow organically.

[pootlus]

They've got to do something to explain why on earth six-years-ago-Laurel was attracted to pre-Island Ollie, because apart from his money (and looking like Stephen Amell, but the fratboy hair does a lot to his his hotness) there's very little to recommend him.

 

Laurel is beautiful, smart and appears well-grounded.  Surely she could have had her pick of guys - why on earth did she start dating Oliver? It wasn't just about getting one-up on Sara, surely.

[wonderwall]

While I understand why Sara liked him (probably because he was cute, had similar interests, was popular... I don't fault her for that because she was young and didn't know any better), I don't understand why Laurel loved him. Sara probably wanted to date him, have fun... I don't think she expected anything out of the relationship with Ollie... Whereas Laurel saw an entire future with a fratboy who loved to party and couldn't even stay in college without being expelled??? Something doesn't seem right about this because no woman like Laurel would ever go for that. 

 

You guys are right... Ollie hit the jackpot with young Laurel. But Laurel didn't really hit the jackpot with Ollie (in terms of personality, character etc.). 

 

And I don't really care if Laurel saw Ollie's potential... If it wasn't for the island, he would probably be that same old douche who would cheat on her every other day. So I can't really see how Laurel would anticipate Ollie ever being a hero...

Edited May 27, 2014 by wonderwall

[millahnna]

Well they definitely established an element of competition between the sisters and implied that Laurel had gone for guys Sarah was into prior to Oliver.  It's still a bit open to interpretation (was it as bad as Sarah stated or maybe just a prior one off) but I can completely work with that as a contributing factor in Laurel's attraction to Olliver.  I've totally seen friendships and siblings like that in action.  It kind of makes everything weird about Laurel make sense, really.   Well almost; if they wanted to cement that into a part of her character history, they need a little more polish.  But then that's really the problem with the writing for Laurel; there's a whole lot of bits and pieces that could be interesting if they were polished into a cohesive whole instead of lumped together with other bits and pieces. 

 

Actually it's pretty hilarious if you look at some of those bits; blue collar but grew up with the ritzy kids, jealousy of sister, overachiever (complete with obsessive "we should be moving in together at this stage in life" life planning), long term troubled romantic history with a weird match (hey we all have our moments, but as a trend in the pattern it's notable), intelligent and compassionate (in an academic kind of way) but emotionally distant... and on and on.  Basically everything that's been questioned heavily for whatever reason and/or made the character unlikeable, well all of it could be melded together to make a pretty interesting grey kind of character (who could go good to evil and back again with ease).  And yet it all comes off as bi-polar as fuck.

[KirkB]

What I find interesting, in light of all the Laurel hate, is the setup is there for Laurel to be a very complex and fascinating character, only neither the writers nor Cassidy seem to want to take advantage of it. We know why Oliver does what he does, we understand Sara and Diggle and Felicity, Helena was made pretty clear in her very first appearance, hell even Slade had a plan and a twisted logic behind his actions. But instead of tapping into Laurel's need to compete with her sister or desire to be part of a rich family or resentment of the rich or whatever, they just have her show up, say or do something and leave, only to show up a couple of episodes later often doing something contrary to her last appearance. It's almost like the EP's want Laurel as their female lead but don't know what to do with her. Unless they have some big plan in mind I can't yet see, I have never seen a main character treated quite this way.

[catrox14]

And I don't really care if Laurel saw Ollie's potential... If it wasn't for the island, he would probably be that same old douche who would cheat on her every other day. So I can't really see how Laurel would anticipate Ollie ever being a hero...

 

Thank you!. That's one thing that has been bugging me to no end about the whole "I was drawn to you thing".  So let's see, because she slept with Oliver, thought she was going to move in with him and get married but hated him for 5 years when he was lost at sea because of sleeping with her sister and getting her sister on the boat that means she had some preternatural Ollie-hero-dar?  Why the hell didn't her preternatural Ollie-dar tell her he was the Vigilante at the time? /head desk

 

Ack! Annoying!

[MsSchadenfreude]

 Oliver and Laurel was always going to be a hard sell for me.   The cheating boyfriend and the girl who puts up with it because only she sees the good guy/real hero deep down inside is one of the romantic tropes I just hate.  The one who puts up with all the crap just comes off looking pathetic and that's pretty much what I think every time we see a Laurel/Oliver flashback. It just makes me yell at the television…Damnit, Laurel have a little pride and some self respect.   Pre-island Oliver was a tool and he didn't even hide it that well.  Nothing about him back then that screamed "someday I'm going be a hero".  So the show needs to stop trying to justify why Laurel stayed with his punk ass for so long and just accept she was fool or a gold digger, one or the other because anything else is just not believable to me.

 

And even though Oliver has changed, Laurel doesn't know this Oliver because he is nothing like the guy she spent so many years with in her past and the show has done nothing to establish a real connection between them in the present.  All they have is their past and their past sucks.

[Carrie Ann]

Doing the Rewatch here made me even less understanding of the Lauriver relationship. When Oliver returns from the dead, the news shows video of him traipsing around with a bunch of girls after a night of clubbing (none of whom are Laurel). And Tommy references his multiple court appearances, for DUI, assaulting a paparazzo, stealing a cab, and "peeing on a cop." Do you know who dates guys like that? Paris Hilton. Lindsay Lohan. Probably the Kardashians. You know who doesn't? Any self-respecting person with half a brain.

[Password]

I was really annoyed by how much the writers emphasized Laurel in the last few episodes of season two. I thought it was ridiculous that she was the one who talked Oli out of his suicide. If Felicity and Diggle failed, then there is no way in hell that Laurel would be successful.

 

Haha you are preaching to the choir on this forum. Nothing about Laurel in the Arrowcave or in the last few episodes of s2 made sense. The show does itself no favours by pushing her front and centre when many viewers want her in the back or out.

[quarks]

Over on the Diggle thread, this came up:

 

I just don't picture her showing up, expecting to be part of the team, regardless. Maybe that's because the thought of it makes me ill! If it happens, I would think there would be a more precipitating event than just the fact that she knows about Oliver now and has a new jacket. Why would either of those things mean she's a part of the team now?

But I do agree that I'm gonna need to see some real shade from Diggle if she does show up. I rely on him for that, and it would be gross if it had to be Felicity who did it.

 

 

 

Where "her" is Laurel.

 

I think, yes, if she's told the location of the new Arrow Cave (I'm assuming the thorough destruction of the last one and the ongoing chatter about exciting new sets means that next season is in the new Arrow Cave), she'll show up and expect to work beside Oliver - because that's exactly what she was expecting to do just a few episodes ago, and to a very limited extent what she's done earlier in the show - call on the Hood/the Arrow for help and break into buildings with him. (Not often, but it's happened.) Her "they can risk their lives, but I can't?" seemed to come from a previous set of expectations.  And given Laurel's "I always felt drawn to you," and "I know you better than anyone else," combined with Sara's "Oliver needs you," she'll assume that yes, she's meant to be Oliver's partner.

 

Not to mention the whole jacket handoff.

 

So yes, I expect this. What I'm questioning is how it's going to work.  The show can start next season smack dab in the middle of an action sequence showing Laurel as part of the team, and just handwave the whole training thing - the script said that she's had martial arts training, after all, even though we haven't seen it. The show could also appear to be damseling Laurel again (cue audience groans) only to have her turn around and kickass on everyone, although the major problem is that we already saw this in the 2nd season finale, so it runs the risk of been there, done that on the show - not to mention the problem that if they do this, it will feel like, at least to me, another scene given to placate the actress because "Felicity did it," rather than because it's a good idea.  Or alternatively the show can start with Laurel in the DA's office - asking when she can get out in the field with the Arrow.

 

I'm not thrilled with either option. I'd rather have Laurel in the DA's office, providing help, and, frankly, antagonism, from there.  There should be antagonism - Oliver might be downing criminals, but he's not using legal methods to do so, and the show could have some real fun with criminals that get let out on 4th Amendment technicalities. (Which would also continue the theme of "Laurel really isn't a good lawyer, is she?")  But there can also be cooperation, and this could work very well.

 

Admittedly I'm partly for this because I'm not really eager to see Laurel in the Arrow Cave. Unlike Roy and Sara, she's going to be coming in hostile and facing hostility. It's possible that the show will use the five month hiatus to handwave that, with something like, "You know, Oliver, when you said four months ago that you were bringing Laurel into the team, I thought you were nuts," but then that means missing the fun of the initial interactions. It also doesn't really make all that much sense: Diggle has a genuine, major problem with Laurel, and specifically Laurel and Oliver, which he has voiced more than once, loudly, and even with the speed of this show, I'm not sure that will go away that quickly - and if it does, I want to see the reason for it.

 

That hostility, however, might mean a replay of the Clock King episode and "what is my place on the team," just with Laurel, not Felicity. That was my hands down least favorite episode of the season (Suicide Squad was the runner up, for different reasons), and I really don't need to see that a second time. 

[icandigit]

I don't think they can erase those times for me when she interacted with Felicity and was stank for no reason. I'm just really hoping this won't make me stop watching the show.

[quarks]

Well, in their first interaction I could actually understand Laurel's look of disbelief - she's having a private, what she considers important conversation with Oliver, and then this unknown girl stumbles in and interrupts, and even though she's apparently just there to fix the internet, she knows enough about Oliver to figure out who Laurel is immediately, which would have made Laurel go, uh, what?  Plus the babbling.

 

Their later interactions not so much, though I do suspect that Laurel's irritation with Felicity interrupting at least twice and asking if she can talk to Oliver just for a moment was partly behind Laurel's later "Could you give us a moment?" to Felicity and Diggle.

 

I really don't want to see Felicity and Laurel at odds.  We've already seen that Felicity can handle Oliver being with other women - she might get a little jealous, but she deals with it. Laurel dealt with Oliver sleeping with her sister again.  But the two of them have not had a very friendly setup.

[catrox14]

Frankly if they try to handwave and time jump Laurel's training, I will be sorely tested to stay with the show. Alternately, I do not want to see Laurel's actual crucible because been there done that with Sara.

 

It's really not fair to the viewers to be stuck with a shitty half-assed Black Canary 2.0 and have to suffer through that SL to see Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Det Lance, Sara ( I hope) , Roy, and Malcolm Merlyn.  Nor should I have to quit watching because of one shitty character.  Ugh.  /worried

[Carrie Ann]

I'm hopeful that the writers would recognize the inherent problems with just dropping Laurel into the new Arrow Cave, and that they won't go that route. The clunky "This started with the three of us. It's time we got back to that." line was there specifically addressing criticisms about too many people in the lair. The showrunners know that people value the specific dynamic of Original Team Arrow, and as I posted somewhere here awhile back, they indicated that the season would begin with a more "intimate" feel in the lair. Basically, no outsiders. The worst possible thing they could do is to take a problematic character and put her in a place no one wants her to be.

 

This is not to say that I don't expect Laurel and Her New Leather Jacket to butt in on that at some point in the season. But again, I don't think the next step from the season finale is "Train me; I want to be on the team." Even with her showing up in the lair in E22 and demanding a ride-along--there was an immediate threat to the whole city, and the people in front of her were heading out to fight it. It seemed logical that she would want to help in that moment. I don't think it means she thinks she can be a superhero too, and even if she did, I don't think Oliver would agree to train her.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I really don't want to see Felicity and Laurel at odds.  We've already seen that Felicity can handle Oliver being with other women - she might get a little jealous, but she deals with it. Laurel dealt with Oliver sleeping with her sister again.  But the two of them have not had a very friendly setup.

 

 

Yeah, I really hope that the EPs don't go there either.  I think that the only thing that hostility between Felicity and Laurel would accomplish is to pit fans of the two against each other.  Judging from Guggenheim's twitter as well as tumblr, etc. I think that there is already a big enough problem with this and it would do nobody any favors to make the problem worse.

[wonderwall]

 

I really don't want to see Felicity and Laurel at odds.  We've already seen that Felicity can handle Oliver being with other women - she might get a little jealous, but she deals with it. Laurel dealt with Oliver sleeping with her sister again.  But the two of them have not had a very friendly setup.

 

While I can see Felicity trying to be civil with Laurel, I don't see Laurel doing the same. I mean, in her point of view, who is this girl who Oliver seems to care for? If KC really thinks that Laurel feels Oliver is her soulmate then Laurel will definitely feel threatened and possibly jealous of Felicity, not only for her bond with Oliver, but over the fact that she helps save the city daily.  However, I don't see Felicity feeling the same way because she's long accepted the fact that Oliver will always love Laurel (whether that's in a romantic sense or a platonic one). 

 

IDK am I making sense? I feel like I'm babbling incoherently...

Edited May 30, 2014 by wonderwall

[catrox14]

I like women to be friends but not every woman in the show has to be friends with each other.  Sara respected Felicity and vice versa once Felicity realized she still had a place on the team. Felicity has no reason to be nice to Laurel because Laurel has never been nice to Felicity. I think Laurel would be rude as she always has been. I don't want Felicity to cede any territory to Laurel at all.  The Arrow Cave is Felicity's.  It's been established that there is some prickliness between them already so IMO for them to get along well now would be odd.

[wonderwall]

Even if Laurel and Felicity were to have an outright war, I think we all know who Oliver would choose to side with making Laurel look like the idiot outsider (this is why they won't go this route lol). 

 

Regardless, I don't mind Felicity being indifferent. She doesn't owe Laurel anything and vice versa. I want to see Felicity have a friendship with someone she has more chemistry with. Her scenes with laurel are awkward at best and I don't want to see any Felicity scenes being dragged down by the black hole that is Laurel. 

 

I still want Laurel to become Manhunter. I feel like she would thrive without getting involved with Oliver or Arrow related. Come on writers! PLEASE BE SMART ENOUGH TO DO THIS. 

[FurryFury]

. I want to see Felicity have a friendship with someone she has more chemistry with.

 

Felicity needs more scenes with someone who is not Oliver period. She's in dangerous position of existing only for the male hero to get info from, save and have UST with. Which is not OK for any main character, especially female character in a male-oriented show.

 

And on topic: as I've said about Juliette when I had to stop watching Grimm after its disastrous season 2, I will most likely return to watching Arrow if they drop Laurel's character. Write her out, kill her, I don't care. If you couldn't salvage her with ample screen time after 2 seasons, it's too late. Admit your defeat.

[Password]

Felicity needs more scenes with someone who is not Oliver period. She's in dangerous position of existing only for the male hero to get info from, save and have UST with. Which is not OK for any main character, especially female character in a male-oriented show.

This is something I assume they realise, and that's why her story was saved for s3. She's a really great character, if they mess her up by giving her one reason to exist, Oliver, I'll feel cheated. They spent many episodes on Laurel, whom I understand is the female lead, whom didn't endear herself to the whole audience. Spend at least a few on Felicity to give us something to see her more clearly. I wonder if they plan to give her some skeletons in the closet. Even if she were a horrible person, the person she is now matters more to me. Another reason why what they did to Oliver this season annoyed me to my bones.

[FurryFury]

I don't think Felicity necessarily needs dark past or friends/relatives who turned villains or something like that, but she just needs more relationships in the present time and more background in general. And she needs to be shown to be able to do stuff on her own and have her own motivations, aside from Oliver and even Team Arrow on the whole.

[tv echo]

I agree with those who think that part of the problem is the writing and part of it is the actress.  Yes, Laurel's story development so far has been inconsistent and some of her spoken lines really cringe-worthy.  But a lot could be overlooked if I found the character likeable or even believable.  Laurel is supposed to be this warm and compassionate lawyer.  But Katie Cassidy does not portray 'warm and compassionate' well (in my opinion).  I've never seen her in anything else, so maybe she's great in other roles.  But her acting comes off as fake and soap opera-like to me.  Perfect example is when she cries out "you can't commit suicide" and throws her arms around Oliver's neck.  I just felt embarrassed for her (KC, the actress).  Laurel just comes across as cold and, when she's being nice, calculating.

 

In contrast, the other female characters on the show come across as natural and real - Moira, Felicity, Sara, Thea.

Edited May 30, 2014 by tv echo

[Password]

I don't think Felicity necessarily needs dark past or friends/relatives who turned villains or something like that, but she just needs more relationships in the present time and more background in general. And she needs to be shown to be able to do stuff on her own and have her own motivations, aside from Oliver and even Team Arrow on the whole.

 

It might be the response the writers take to make Laurel more likable. I don't put anything past the writers because they allowed Laurel to shoot a bow, and even though Oliver explained it's easier with that bow, I hated it because I watched Oliver and Roy slap water. I don't think the writers and EPs see things as clearly as they think.

[dtissagirl]

One of my biggest fears for S3 is what the writers will make of any and all interactions between Laurel and Felicity.

 

Laurel heard Slade's speech to Oliver about Felicity, right? And since Laurel obviously wasn't in on the ruse, from her POV what happened was Slade thought she [Laurel] was Oliver's ~soulmate~ when he had her kidnapped, except PSYCH!, it's not her, it's the babbling IT girl/secretary who kept interrupting Laurel was having a moment with Oliver. So, you know, it's gotta burn a bit to be the wrongly kidnapped woman in this particular scenario. I really really worry going forth from this how exactly will Laurel react to Felicity.

[Password]

 I really really worry going forth from this how exactly will Laurel react to Felicity.

 

If Laurel acts like a bitch towards Felicity I wouldn't mind. I think she pulls it off. I wish the writers would embrace that side of Laurel instead of trying to make her a "good guy". I don't buy her in that position, but make her catty and I could.

 

Felicity does have this uncanny ability to interrupt Laurel and Oliver and steal him away.

[dtissagirl]

If Laurel acts like a bitch towards Felicity I wouldn't mind. I think she pulls it off. I wish the writers would embrace that side of Laurel instead of trying to make her a "good guy". I don't buy her in that position, but make her catty and I could.

 

Hmm, I hadn't thought of it like that, but that might work for me too. If the writing was telling me I'm *supposed* to hate Laurel, I probably would have a lot less problems with her presence on the show.

[quarks]

I can see a lot of problems ahead with this. First, what we've seen of their prior interactions would suggest that Laurel will feel both threatened by and superior to Felicity: threatened by because Felicity is unquestionably part of Oliver's team, and because she had to have heard the whole Slade/Oliver "woman you love" conversation; superior to because Laurel has known Oliver for longer and known him both before and after the island, has been in an actual relationship with Oliver (however toxic), knows that Oliver/Arrow has gone out of his way to save her multiple times - more than he's saved Felicity (I regard this as a negative as a viewer, but from Laurel's point of view I can see the "he kept saving me!" as having some deep meaning for their relationship), and knows that at the end of last season, Oliver was willing to be with her after he gave up his Hood persona. She can even argue to herself that Felicity might be with Oliver while they are fighting, but Laurel will have him at the end, once (if) he retires from the superhero business (I think Cassidy may even be reading/interpreting things this way.)

 

So that all makes sense in character. The problem is, if the writers are going to try to get us to like Laurel, I don't think they can have Laurel act dismissive or superior to a popular, likeable character - that almost always comes off badly.  (Charisma Carpenter/Cordelia Chase managed it in the first three seasons of Buffy, but she managed it through great comic timing - and the character's inner belief that, slaying aside, Cordelia really was better than Buffy in all other ways, even though the audience knew better. That dynamic was great.)  So, if the goal is "get the audience to like Laurel," then I think they are going to have to write something else...

 

...which is where the other problem comes in. As I keep noticing and seeing, if Katie Cassidy cannot understand her motivation for the scene, or if her motivation does not make sense based on prior scenes, or if she doesn't have a clear goal by the end of the scene, she flops. Badly. And realistically, Laurel has only two reasons to like Felicity right now: the script wants to make Laurel more likeable, and Felicity did just help save Laurel's life. Unfortunately, we didn't see Laurel's reaction to that - and Sara, not Oliver or Felicity, was the one to specifically free Laurel by injecting Laurel's kidnapper with the cure so Laurel could get in a few punches (sigh.)

 

If the script plays up the second part - Felicity saving Laurel's life - and reminds Cassidy to focus on that, I think this could work. If the first...this could go badly.

 

Or, alternatively, the show could just give up trying to make us like Laurel, and instead make her catty and bitchy and, above all, funny.  That approach worked for Cordelia, after all. Cassidy has decent comic timing; I'd like the show to stop wasting that.

[Password]

Or, alternatively, the show could just give up trying to make us like Laurel, and instead make her catty and bitchy and, above all, funny.  That approach worked for Cordelia, after all. Cassidy has decent comic timing; I'd like the show to stop wasting that.

 

My thoughts exactly. Let Laurel embrace the bitchy funny side and she'll become more likeable. Being yourself really is true. Even if she becomes a character we love to hate. I myself, didn't like Sophie on Leverage but I appreciated that she was amazing at grifting. I can appreciate Laurel as funny and snarky, which I think KC pulls off very well.

[SonofaBiscuit]

But Katie Cassidy does not portray 'warm and compassionate' well (in my opinion).  I've never seen her in anything else, so maybe she's great in other roles.  But her acting comes off as fake and soap opera-like to me.  Perfect example is when she cries out "you can't commit suicide" and throws her arms around Oliver's neck.  I just felt embarrassed for her (KC, the actress).  Laurel just comes across as cold and, when she's being nice, calculating.

 

 

In the second half of season 2, there is a scene where Laurel shows up to Verdant to make amends with Sara.  She's being nice to Sara and I think she gives her some advice and a hug (this was shortly after the huge dinner blow-up scene).  As far as I remember, I think that was what happened...I admit I sort of tune out during Laurel's scenes.  The way that the scene was shot, I thought for sure Laurel had some secret agenda and we were meant to think she was going evil.  Nope, she was just being nice. 

[Password]

The scene where Laurel apologises to Sara may seem false because the audience doesn't see why she's doing it. Ok that's my opinion, but did Sara ever say "Chee Laurel sorry for messing around with Oliver." I guess that would've sounded false seeing as she got back together with him.

[FurryFury]

I don't put anything past the writers because they allowed Laurel to shoot a bow

 

A definite shark-jumping moment if there ever was one.

[bluebonnet]

Well, in their first interaction I could actually understand Laurel's look of disbelief - she's having a private, what she considers important conversation with Oliver, and then this unknown girl stumbles in and interrupts, and even though she's apparently just there to fix the internet, she knows enough about Oliver to figure out who Laurel is immediately, which would have made Laurel go, uh, what?  Plus the babbling.

For me, Laurel's initial reaction to Felicity didn't come off so understandable.  It was a private conversation, but it was in Oliver's place of business where employees should be expected.  I figured someone served her the coffee and there was an employee walking around in the background before Oliver entered.  So when she asks the whole "who are you" and gives this look of confusion, it comes off strange for the scene.  It might have been different if Felicity had been all "oh hi Laurel, yeah I totally know your name" before the "who are you".  But seriously, place of business, employees are going to be around needing the owner/manager's ear.

 

I compare that to Moira's "who are you" when Felicity walked into a private hospital room where the family was reuniting with a returned Walter.  The "who are you" is warranted due to the location and the nature of the gathering.  They probably should have switched the lines around a bit with Laurel and Felicity so that Felicity mentions knowing Laurel and then Laurel has a reason to wonder who this person is. 

[KirkB]

It's funny, though fitting, to me to read so many people saying Laurel would be more likeable if she were mean and bitchy. As odd a sentiment as it, that making a character less nice would make her better, it's so true here because KC and the EP's are saying what a great, wonderful person Laurel is while the writers give us a character who seems to view almost everyone around her with some degree of contempt. If she went full on superiority complex it would make her at least more understandable. She's easier to deal with in quieter moments with Quentin and Sara, and to a lesser extent Oliver, but she's talked about by the people running the show one way and presented to us on the show a completely different way. Unless they want us to find out Laurel is schizophrenic or something, they really need to make up their minds.

Edited May 30, 2014 by KirkB

[BunsenBurner]

I would be afraid to be Laurel's boyfriend or colleague. She showed up at the yacht before Oliver left and handed him her picture. He died for 5 years. She gets together with Tommy and his dad takes away his trust fund and then she and Ollie have a one night stand which Tommy sees and he dies after saving her. She then dates Donner the ADA or DA and he gets dosed with Vertigo and I assume he dies or gets fired. She dates Blood and he dies. She blackmails her new boss and she dies. She's with her dad at the police station when he gets hurt and he might die which I don't think will happen because PB scenes are the only ones she's good at. To me Laurel is not only toxic she's deadly.

Edited May 30, 2014 by BunsenBurner

[Sakura12]

To me it does't really matter what they do with the Laurel and Felicity relationship. If KC couldn't hide her glee that Caity was leaving/handing over her title to her how will she be able to hide the fact that she thinks Laurel is Oliver's OTL (minus having sex with him because she can't separate Oliver from Stephen)? 

 

I just imagine we'll always be seeing the seething jealousy under Laurel pretending to be nice to Felicity. She'll be smiling at her with a bitch face. So I really can't see any genuine friendship ever developing between them because of the actress being unable to portray it that way. 

[dtissagirl]

I just imagine we'll always be seeing the seething jealousy under Laurel pretending to be nice to Felicity. She'll be smiling at her with a bitch face. So I really can't see any genuine friendship ever developing between them because of the actress being unable to portray it that way. 

 

I always end up coming back to this. I don't hate Laurel because of her character traits. I wish I did -- I love hating fictional characters that are specifically written to be loathed. Hell, I even enjoy hating characters that I find awful for personal reasons, even if the writing is not geared towards that. My problem here is Laurel is a poorly constructed from the get go terribly written character, that's portrayed by an actress who makes bizarre acting choices in every scene. Not to mention her lack of chemistry with the rest of the cast. She hit the trifecta of bad writing, bad acting, bad chemistry. Audiences tend to forgive one, sometimes even two of those, but all three? You're getting pulled out of the story every scene she's in, it's distracting. And uncomfortable. And annoying.

 

I love the ideas you guys are posting about exploring her unlikeableness. But everything the showrunners and KC have said in the latest interviews/con appearances make me think they'll keep trying to make her likeable over and over again, and the massive disconnect the majority of the audience feels for Laurel will continue on.

[Tangerine]

There were a few who mentioned that the BC's development as a character would always suffer as this show was primarily about Oliver Queen turning into the Green Arrow and that there wouldn't be a lot of space for another character as huge as BC. It got me thinking as to why the Powers that Be felt they needed to introduce the Dinah/BC character right from the get-go. I know that Smallville only delayed in introducing Lois because of a rights issue, but I almost feel like it would have been so much more compelling had they just waited to introduce the character. Instead we get an absolute bungled mess that we're supposed to believe is BC. I feel like the writers were worried about making Laurel seem like too much of a Mary Sue and therefore scaled back her fighting ability, but it just made her look stupid and incompetent most of the time, which makes it REALLY tough to cheer for her. Of course to make matters worse, they've now introduced a Canary who IS compelling and who I WANT to root for. They've created a character who even though we didn't see develop on screen all that much, really makes you believe she has a story of her own that could be further explored. 

 

 

 

I just imagine we'll always be seeing the seething jealousy under Laurel pretending to be nice to Felicity. She'll be smiling at her with a bitch face. So I really can't see any genuine friendship ever developing between them because of the actress being unable to portray it that way. 

 

I don't need Felicity to be friends with everybody, so her having a prickly relationship with Laurel is fine by me as long as it's not driven by romantic jealousy. Felicity, knowing what we've seen of her character so far will remain friendly and civil. The thing is, Felicity is a fan favourite so if Laurel is going to continue to be dismissive and bitchy towards her, it's not exactly going to help people like her. 

 

The writers are really in a tough spot with this, but they wrote themselves into it. 

 

I've only ever seen KC in Supernatural and I thought she was just fine as Ruby. You never really could get a beat on Ruby's characterization, but that worked then because her character was purposely written to be ambiguous. The thing with KC as Laurel is that I don't see her as an actual person. Every other cast member brings such life to and energy to their characters that they feel three-dimensional and like actual people, whereas Laurel is throughly 2-D. I think back to the scene where Quentin is trying to convince Laurel to have the family dinner to win back Dinah and KC's expression is just so blank the entire time it looks as if she's just trying to remember what her next line is. Thea's development is confounding and nonsensical, and I'd make the argument she's even more poorly-written than Laurel, but Willa Holland really embodies Thea and seems to have a good handle on who she's supposed to be that makes her intriguing to watch. I haven't seen any of that from Laurel/KC. 

[slayer2]

Well, on episode 2.12 now and I can see why KC calls this Laurel's island,talk about a bad year. Feeling bad for her now as she looks so fragile, I feel as though KC went method and lost all that weight for to Laurel's drug/drinking arc. She looks so fragile and I can't help but want to hug her, have never seen KC that thin.

She's doing a great job playing the change from a warm-hearted, optimistic person to a broken, sad young woman. The shift between the Laurel in season one and her scenes with Joanna is phenomenally sad compared to her last scene with Joanna. A nice parallel there with Joanna the one to espouse hope. I'm really interested in how this plays out and hope Laurel can find her strength again next season.

[wonderwall]

I just don't get how the whole "my ex whom I actually didn't love enough to stay with died and now I'm a drug addict because I'm depressed" story is Laurel's island. It severely undercuts what Sara and Oliver went through. This is not Laurel's island, this is Laurel's weakness taking over. Laurel losing Tommy (someone whom she was terrible to and didn't really think twice about it) and becoming a drug addict is not a crucible, it's more of a moment of weakness for Laurel, thus, not a believable motivation for her to become BC. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

slayer2, I have seen others mention that Cassidy lost weight on the show for her drug/drinking arc.  The main reason that I could never get behind that explanation was because she didn't really seem very invested in the show for most of the second season.  She did practically no promotion of the show until the very end.  If she couldn't even muster up the enthusiasm to talk about the show, I just couldn't imagine her caring enough to go so far as altering her physical appearance for it.  Plus, she seems to have no problems talking about bulking up to become Black Canary, so I would have thought she would have talked about losing weight for her role if that's what she did.  Just my take, I'm sure we'll never know for sure since she probably won't ever discuss it.

[BkWurm1]

The shift between the Laurel in season one and her scenes with Joanna is phenomenally sad compared to her last scene with Joanna

 

I've always heard that shows play out differently when you get to watch episodes back to back to back.  I can't say that I remember Laurel's personality much by the time season two rolled around.  I think I spent too much time over the hiatus blaming her for Tommy's death.

 

I noticed the weight loss too.  She was scary thin.  I'm still not sure if it was on purpose for the show or not but the show was writing her story line as a drunk and addict in a real half hazard manner.  She gets a DUI when I didn't even realize she was supposed to be tipsy then swore up and down she was fine and she acted the same as always.  Then the show dropped that story line for a while (she wasn't even in a few episodes) and then all of a sudden we were getting all this press saying she was doing this major "emmy worthy" arc.  We got back from the winter hiatus and we had the episode that had Laurel stealing pills, figuring out Blood and having her breakdown.  I really didn't know she was supposed to have a real problem until It was like two episodes away from being fixed.  Sigh.

 

I don't need Felicity to be friends with everybody, so her having a prickly relationship with Laurel is fine by me as long as it's not driven by romantic jealousy. Felicity, knowing what we've seen of her character so far will remain friendly and civil. 

 

I think one of two things will happen.  Either we will have the above happen with Laurel still being Laurel and if not overtly condescending then it just coming off that way or we will have Laurel remain Laurel and if not overtly condescending then just coming off that way but we will have Felicity (and probably Diggle) praising all the ways Laurel has been such a big help and probably some conversations, argh - I hate even writing this- where they talk to Oliver about his feelings for Laurel. 

[slayer2]

I just don't get how the whole "my ex whom I actually didn't love enough to stay with died and now I'm a drug addict because I'm depressed" story is Laurel's island. It severely undercuts what Sara and Oliver went through. This is not Laurel's island, this is Laurel's weakness taking over. Laurel losing Tommy (someone whom she was terrible to and didn't really think twice about it) and becoming a drug addict is not a crucible, it's more of a moment of weakness for Laurel, thus, not a believable motivation for her to become BC.

I don't agree with this at all. Using the island as a metaphor, I could just as easily have said crucible but even still I don't think addiction equals weakness. I also don't think that her trials were any less difficult for her because they weren't heavily physical trials as Oliver and Sara's were. If I found out my sister had died just days after finding out my boyfriend had died while also finding out they died together while cheating on me then my parents divorced, my father became an alcoohlic , my mother walked out never to be heard from again until after my allegedly dead bf came back. Then my current on/off bf died saving my life then my mother came back convinced my sister was alive, I cracked (naturally) lost my shit, lost my job, lost my career then my dead sister came back and started screwing my dead boyfriend again, well frankly if that's not a crucible then you're stronger than I am friend. Because a year of that and I'd be mindlessly eating green goop that passes for jello at Belle Reve.

Bkwrm I feel like a lot of what people perceive about KC is based on assumptions and am not convinced it's anything concrete.

For me based on her previous work (this is the fourth role I've seen her in) she delivers with a vengeance and has been nothing but professional in response to tough situations (like backlash for Ruby) and the firing of Ashlee Simpson and Colin Egglesfield (on Melrose Place).

I've seen KC deliver time and again and be nothing but friendly and sweet in interviews so it's easy for me to believe she dropped the weight for this arc. Especially when I note the difference between season 1 Laurel and Season 2 Laurel and even how KC looks now on hiatus which is much healthier.

I've been following her career for over 6 years now and this is the skinniest I've seen her and the vacancy and gloom in Laurel's eyes just wasn't there in season 1.

She also explained that the reason she hasn't read any Canary comics is that they haven't told her she is canary as yet but if they do she will do whatever it takes to prepare for the role including boning up on the comics.

It makes perfect sense to me, it's like if the first season was SA just playing Oliver Queen before Arrow, he wouldn't want to get I to a character that doesn't exist yet until he has the experiences on screen that make him that version of Oliver Queen.

Edited May 31, 2014 by slayer2

[wonderwall]

@slayer2, no, her addiction wasn't a culmination of what she went through the five years after Sara's supposed death. Her addiction was a result of Tommy's death and his death alone. Laurel seemed pretty fine in season 1, she even seemed happy with Tommy at one point. If we saw Laurel's struggles about dealing with depression right off the bat from season 1, then, yes. It could've been her island, but we didn't.

 

She succumbed to alcoholism and drugs because there's a part of her that felt responsible for Tommy's death (and rightfully so). It was guilt that made Laurel turn to drugs and alcohol. And Laurel became a druggie before she even knew Sara was alive so your last point is moot. By your logic, she should've gotten worse after she figured out Oliver/Sara were hooking up, but she didn't. She got better (especially after Oliver's speech). And then she miraculously got cured and became the same ol' Laurel (except now she goes to AA meetings). Islands are supposed to change people. Season 2 didn't change Laurel by any means. 

Edited May 31, 2014 by wonderwall

[slayer2]

@slayer2, no, her addiction wasn't a culmination of what she went through the five years after Sara's supposed death. Her addiction was a result of Tommy's death and his death alone. Laurel seemed pretty fine in season 1, she even seemed happy with Tommy at one point. If we saw Laurel's struggles about dealing with depression right off the bat from season 1, then, yes. It could've been her island, but we didn't.

She succumbed to alcoholism and drugs because there's a part of her that felt responsible for Tommy's death (and rightfully so). It was guilt that made Laurel turn to drugs and alcohol. And Laurel became a druggie before she even knew Sara was alive so your last point is moot. By your logic, she should've gotten worse after she figured out Oliver/Sara were hooking up, but she didn't. She got better (especially after Oliver's speech). And then she miraculously got cured and became the same ol' Laurel (except now she goes to AA meetings). Islands are supposed to change people. Season 2 didn't change Laurel by any means.

I don't agree with this either. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Life is cumulative, something that happened a year ago, compounded with something else and then something else can lead to an unfortunate end result and from marathoning Arrow these past week and a half (not finished yet so I can't speak to her recovery process) that is what I saw and to me Laurel going to Oliver and Sara and saying she's okay with it and giving them her blessing, then finding out their identities and also giving them her support and blessing IS growth. Of course mileage varies. Edited May 31, 2014 by slayer2

[wonderwall]

Ah but there's the rub. Life is cumulative. But the thing is, is that I never saw Laurel talk about the five years of pain Oliver and Sara put her through during her depression. She didn't really discuss about her family being torn apart, she mainly focused on her guilt about Tommy. While you can assume that her depression was a result of everything Oliver/Sara put her through, we didn't explicitly see it. That's the problem. They could've made Laurel seem a lot more sympathetic, but this didn't happen.

 

My problem is, is that Laurel's character and arc in season 2 didn't make sense. One minute she was throwing glass at her sister, then Oliver gave his glorified speech, then the next minute she was giving Oliver relationship advice. While you call that growth, I found it to be jarring and premature. I like to see characters grow on screen, any growth done off-screen (especially growth as significant as this) simply isn't believable. And the fact that she's still in love with Oliver (KC said this)? That undercuts her arc even more and makes her growth less believable. 

 

The point though, is that everything you said didn't translate on screen. It made her annoying, less believable, it made her arc seem like child's play in comparison to Oliver and Sara's island. Laurel's arc in season 2 was more talk than show, and that is the worst thing for a character and their likability. 

Edited May 31, 2014 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

If I found out my sister had died just days after finding out my boyfriend had died while also finding out they died together while cheating on me then my parents divorced, my father became an alcoohlic , my mother walked out never to be heard from again until after my allegedly dead bf came back. Then my current on/off bf died saving my life then my mother came back convinced my sister was alive, I cracked (naturally) lost my shit, lost my job, lost my career then my dead sister came back and started screwing my dead boyfriend again, well frankly if that's not a crucible then you're stronger than I am friend.

 

Except she spent five years dealing with the part where her sister died while cheating with her boyfriend which sent her father to the bottle and ended her parents marriage.  She absolutely seemed to have it together at the start of the first season.  So for her first ripple, I have to start with her ex that cheated on her sister not being dead (Oliver) but she had time to deal and process this, as she did when her mother thought her sister was still alive as well.  Then she let herself fall for Tommy. 

 

Again, Laurel with Tommy seemed absolutely stable and adjusted.  She had a great relationship with her father and was back to being friends with Oliver. 

 

Laurel broke up with Tommy, slept with Oliver, foolishly went back to the Glades to save files where Tommy got killed.  Then she channeled everything that was eating at her into blaming the Hood but when she realized that really it wasn't the Hood's fault, then and only then did she fall apart.  

 

The show didn't play it up as built up left over stress about all that came before but as she was fine and stable and adjusted to all the stuff with Oliver but then that she decided she was to blame for Tommy's death and the only tie back to Oliver was his role with her in "betraying" Tommy before he died. 

 

I tend to agree that both Oliver and Laurel (expecially Oliver) did betray Tommy but as stupid as Laurel was for being in the Glades when everyone and their sister told her to stay away, I don't really hold her accountable, but she did and she couldn't get past it.  That's what I saw on TV.   

 

Then she got a DUI and had a very confusing addict storyline.  I couldn't tell she was supposed to be drinking too much or abusing pills except for the way the camera lingered every once and awhile.  She even seemed to get smarter and more observant while apparently popping pills.  Of course that 's where Blood stepped in and got her fired. 

 

Getting fired sucks but getting fired was the result of her issues, not the cause of them.  Sara showing up alive was after Laurel was fired, a drunk, a pill popper and in complete denial..  Same with Sara alive AND sleeping with Oliver again. Oddly enough it was Sara sleeping with Oliver that seemed to magically fix Laurel.

 

I know she told Sara that she felt like she'd never had a chance to get past what happened with the Gambit going down but that line IMO wasn't supported by what was shown on TV. What I saw was that she couldn't handle the part she played in Tommy's death, turned to booze and pills and while she fell apart still blamed everyone around her when it was her not being able to face up to her own actions that was sending her on a downward spiral in the first place. 

 

So yeah, I looked at her crappy year and compared it to the crappy years Sara and Oliver spent and found Laurel's time on her Island a very weak comparison..    

 

A crucible is a trial by fire.  Impossible circumstances that test your strength and resolve and fortitude.  All the unimportant stuff is burned away and what's left is the real you. 

 

For Laurel the show seemed to say the real her was someone that couldn't deal with reality and only admitted she was the making of her own problems when she hit absolute bottom and when she did, she had the loving support of family and friends. Then two weeks later she blackmailed (rightly so IMO ) the DA into getting back her job and except for hitting some AA meetings and giving up her wine collection, Laurel's life gets to go on exactly where she left off when she did hit bottom except bonus, her sister is alive!! 

 

I can't compare what Laurel went through briefly to what Sara and Oliver are still dealing with.  I mean Sara just signed her freedom away to save the city.  Now joy oh joy she's back to doing what just a couple months ago left her preferring death.  Am I really supposed to think Laurel is the one that has had it tough???

Edited May 31, 2014 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

I've seen KC deliver time and again and be nothing but friendly and sweet in interviews so it's easy for me to believe she dropped the weight for this arc. Especially when I note the difference between season 1 Laurel and Season 2 Laurel and even how KC looks now on hiatus which is much healthier.

 

Like I said, I didn't really know but I do know that she seems to have put the weight back on which supports the idea that the weight loss was on purpose.

 

Here's the part that makes me tear my hair out.  The show did IMO a terrible time telling me as a viewer that Laurel was looking haggard because of an addiction rather than making me wonder if Katie Cassidy was actually having some body issues and this is a fault purely on the writing and editing and directing of the show. 

 

It was not clear at all if Laurel had a tiny one time problem or a moderate ongoing issue let alone that she was so bad she was stealing her own father's pain medication to the point where her father had to go around in pain for his sustained injuries.  It does the show no credit to leave it up to that point to clue me in that Laurel was supposed to really have a problem.  Everything before seemed like her dad and Oliver overreacting.  The show didn't give me any reason to worry about Laurel. 

 

She drinks wine in her apartment, um that's status quo for like 80% of all characters on TV.  She's seen taking a pill seemingly from a prescription bottle and only one mind you.  How is this excess?  I thought they were going to reveal she was on anti-depressants and I was at the time ready to applaud her for dealing with her problems but nope, I was supposed to figure out she had a serious addiction problem.  Even her crankiness seemed in character, she's been angry (often rightly so) since the first episode.  This is one area where the producers really should be apologizing to KC.