Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Sakura12]

They can't make Laurel's journey organic for season 4 since it wasn't organic in season 3. Season 4 will just be a continuation of her half-assed journey to being an insta-hero. Oliver's not Green Arrow yet but a month worth of training Laurel gets to be Black Canary already. Okay show. It's good to know that for some it takes years of blood sweat and tears, for other all they have to do is put on a mask and call themselves a hero. 

 

They've screwed up Laurel from the get go. They should cut their losses on that character and say Laurel moved to be a "hero" elsewhere. Instead of shoving her where she clearly doesn't fit that well. She just doesn't mesh well with Team Arrow (the entire basis of this show). I know some people were upset when Sara started going out with Oliver, but IMO she fit into the team well. 

 

Like in this scene. There was no tension, they were all just talking about what they were going to do like a team.

 

Laurel just does not fit like that. And that hurts the show. 

[Menrva]

KC just frustrates me in general. I don't care if she has a "resting bitch face" (no offense intended, DeathQuaker!); KC is an actress, she is supposed to be aware of how she presents herself and how her facial expressions might be read in a scene. That is her job. And she is bad at it. It's not just the crappy writing. Some of this is KC's fault.

 

I don't feel like making excuses for her. It's not like I don't have issues with the other actors. I would dearly love to find a diction coach for EBR. Brandon Routh has a major case of bug eyes. But this sense of entitlement seems to seep out of LL and I can't tell if it's coming from KC or just how she's playing LL and it pisses me off beyond belief. Then the cluelessness that KC displays at interviews makes it worse. The costume input KC was permitted to give was so absurd! What, she has a fashion blog, so she gets to dictate her superhero look because she wants to look "pretty"? I'm pretty sure Stephen Amell would prefer not to be kicking butt wearing skintight leather, but that is the look. I think the most SA was able to demand was no goatee and sleeveless outfit.

 

Maybe KC is a lovely person once you get to know her, but I'm not in a position to do that, nor would I want to. My interaction with her is through a TV screen and I don't like what I see. I have not seen a hero, just a self-absorbed woman obsessed with becoming her sister. I don't feel like LL is out saving people because it is the right thing to do. To me, it's more like she's out there building street cred so the other "heroes" will recognize her as a badass. I truly cannot figure out what her supporters see in her. Costumes do not a hero make - we all know that. I was also unhappy that Oliver called her and Thea heroes; not that they weren't brave to save the city, but once again, Oliver dismissed his own actions and the years he suffered along his journey. 

 

Man, I am really grouchy lately.

 

[EmeraldArcher]

I co-sign everything you said (except you being grouchy)! I emphatically agree about a diction coach for EBR--during the date-ask scene in The Calm, her voice went higher as if she were asking a question, but she wasn't. I still cringe when I hear it. And, the whole "you dead and Ra's dead" in My Name Is Oliver Queen was almost unintelligible.

Getting back to LL--you've perfectly articulated the problem: her infuriating sense of entitlement. For me, that underpins and undermines her motives for almost anything she did in S2 and S3. Despite her championing of the underdogs through CNRI in S1, her sense of entitlement and self-absorption shone through then, too. I remember the episode when her dad bugged the Arrow phone and used her to trap the Hood. After it all went down, she had the nerve to complain to Tommy that her dad lied to her and used her when she'd been withholding her interactions with the Hood from Tommy and lied about why she was breaking dates with him. In that scene, she seemed utterly clueless about her own culpability or how her actions could have affected her relationships with her father and boyfriend. Again, those types of character moments are the fault of everyone involved in creating LL and showing us who she is in stark contrast to the selfless, brave love interest the EPs say she is on Twitter and in interviews.

[Chaser]

Thinking about the character, I have trouble saying KC was miscast because I honestly feel the character has had so many logic fails in the writing that no actress was ever going to work. Could another actress have been better in the part? Maybe, they could have fixed the chemistry problem at least, but in the end I think the character would still be an issue. Her personality was a jumbled contradiction from the start. They had so many beats they wanted to hit with her that they threw it all into one season, sometimes one episode, that it never allowed the character to breathe and organically move from point A to point B.

 

I was thinking about Laurel being angry at Oliver over Sara when he first got back, but I thought about all that happened with Laurel in those five years and the WTF just kept piling on. Pre-island Oliver was cheating with random woman and then her sister. He sneaks away with her sister, leading to her death. She watchs as the grief rips her parents marriage apart, her father spirals into the bottle, her mother moves away. Then Oliver comes back, but her sister doesn't (and when she does come back Oliver and Sara keep it a secret). When her sister does return, a part of her is broken having endured so much pain. And instead of her sister having a happy ending, she is killed as nothing more then a pawn in a Merlyn/Queen/Ra's involved plot. Also, Laurel is now buddies with Nyssa. And I get it, Nyssa loved Sara and in a way saved Sara. But Nyssa also helped turn Sara into something Sara hated, a killer. And kidnapped her mother.

 

How does Laure not hate Oliver? And Nyssa? How does she not look at them with disgust? And they really never explained or fleshed out any of this. They either don't talk about this or sweep it under the rug after an episode. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

As for KC, I'm not going to call out ever scene that didn't feel right to me. Every actor on this show has missed the mark at one point or another. My biggest thing is that she sticks out like a sore thumb. Part of it I feel is a lack of chemistry with SA, DR and EBR. The show never took the time to allow for them to gel in S3. They didn't rush TA in S1. Felicity wasn't even in the Foundry or in on the secret during their first introductions. It started with SA, then DR joined and when they added Felicity in 1x14 the episode allowed for DR and EBR to bond. That was so smart because allowed all the players to connect individually before establishing themselves as a unit (the highlight being the Undertaking). S1 and S2 wasn't building up to Laurel joining the Team organically. She was told by Slade, then she went to tell her Dad. It was an uncomfortable introduction. I think if they tried not to force it they would have been more successful. Maybe the chemistry would have improved. We know that KC approaches her work differently then SA, DR, EBR. KC's professionalism has been mentioned by a lot of people and she is method, she comes with plan. But we know SA and DR love to joke around and try and throw her off and the boys mentioned that EBR is very flexiable and will try different things. That has to be difficult to try and make work.

[kismet]

The clip, I tried to watch it again but got distracted. I don't really see LL as the focus of the scene so she just kinda fades into the background. Her hands crossed just seem like a habit, not really to be construed as anything just a place to put her arms. Her face can be a resting bitch face at times, so perhaps that is all her face is in these scenes. Honestly, I didn't read much emotion (positive or negative) in them.

 

OQ did treat her like crap for most of the season, esp about the BC stuff, so maybe she was just a little hesitant to take this big you're all heroes speech seriously. He did try to kill them in the last episode, so maybe she is just a little reserved when it comes to his big speeches. Ray is new to the team, so his nod is probably just part of his characterization as hero already that they've been doing all season. LL has had a more complicated path to hero via the writers' bad choices, as has her relationship to OQ always been complicated because of their choices too.

 

LL as a character is just a walking enigma. The writing, directing and acting choices are all over the place. Sometimes good, most of the times bad or mixed. I generally enjoy her scenes with QL, TQ & TM. They seem to humanize her. Her scenes with OQ are just horrendous and never bring out good performances from either. Her lawyer scenes are a mixed bag. Her scenes as BC are also mixed, but more bad IMO. I just want her to be more enjoyable to watch. I want her to be more of a character I want to see on my screen. As opposed to being some character I keep on feeling the need to fix or make more relevant. The one thing I enjoyed about her character through all 3 seasons was her relationship with her Dad and for some reason they had to go destroy that too. I just don't know what to do with her. Analyzing her scenes just becomes tiring because I feel like it won't change her story or how I see the character. I want her to be better, but I just don't know if that is possible.

[catrox14]

Some actors remain present throughout a scene, whether it's just hand gestures or finger wiggling like Oliver or even face acting in response to the events even if the scene is not about them. It's not pulling the focus from the primary characters but enhancing the entire scene. Reacting is as important as acting and IMO KC does not do thatthat very well. I always get the impression that KC is just standing there waiting for her closeup or her lines and not actually becoming a part of the overall scene.

[Sakura12]

How does Laure not hate Oliver? And Nyssa? How does she not look at them with disgust? And they really never explained or fleshed out any of this. They either don't talk about this or sweep it under the rug after an episode. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

Because Laurel really doesn't like her sister as much as she says she does. What it looks like to me is that Laurel could care less about Sara and just wants everything she had including her girlfriend. They've really failed in showing us the sisterly connection between as well. Nyssa seems like she cares more about Sara than Laurel does. Nyssa was the one saying she missed her and didn't know how to move on without her. While Laurel is running around calling herself a hero.

[Chaser]

Because Laurel really doesn't like her sister as much as she says she does. What it looks like to me is that Laurel could care less about Sara and just wants everything she had including her girlfriend. They've really failed in showing us the sisterly connection between as well. Nyssa seems like she cares more about Sara than Laurel does. Nyssa was the one saying she missed her and didn't know how to move on without her. While Laurel is running around calling herself a hero.

In latest 2.5 comic, there is a scene where Oliver and Laurel are in the Foundry and one of them makes a comment about how its weird Laurel is down there. It goes to a close-up of Laurel and she says "Maybe one day I will get a mask of my own" and she is doing this weird smirking thing. I know that they were probably going for anvil heavy humor, but I remember thinking that if this had come out prior to Sara's murder Laurel would be the number one suspect. 

 

They need to drop the whole destiny thing with Laurel. They don't seem to do it for anyone else (at least not as heavy handed) and considering how she got the mask, it's in poor taste. 

[statsgirl]

But "destiny" (i.e. comic book destiny) is really the only reason she got a mask because unlike Oliver, who did it to honor his father, or Sara who did it so women wouldn't be hurt by men, or even Ray who did it so he wouldn't be helpless to save someone like Anna again, Laurel really only did it because she was so angry and it was the one way she could quench the fire. And because she accused Sara of stealing her life, which leaves us with the impression that now she's going to steal Sara's.

 

It's as bad a mistake as having Tommy, Sara and now Quentin say "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" because that's not what the episodes showed. Except for some CNRI scenes, she was mostly trying to honor/save herself.

 

Saying it's her destiny is also lampshading that the show gave her the mask way too fast. Roy had been training for over a year when he got his, Ray had been planning and working on his suit since Anna died and even Thea have been training with Malcolm for a year.  Laurel got her mask after less than three months of boxing lessons.

Edited June 3, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

Destiny is a tricky point with LL. It was always the characters destiny to become BC so its not surprising that the writers default to that terminology. But the problem is they killed Tommy & Sara to get her to that destiny and the writers never built up anything predeaths that indicated that masked crime fighting was in the cards for LL. Perhaps if they had alluded to some physical training it would have been a little better. But instead it was just some boxing classes & lack of anger management. LL's inappropriate coping strategies with the deaths have set up a steep path to hero, that the writers want to gloss over with the destiny card. But that type of glossing just isn't always effective.

 

When SL/WC returns to SC I think they need to address that LL was doing what she was doing because she wanted to help and that her sister's death was an inspiration & not a mechanism by which LL could simply slip into her role. I don't mind that LL was destined to be a hero as BC. They set that up in the pilot when they called her Dinah. She did work in CNRI & public law as opposed to taking a more lucrative private law firm post. So there is precedence that she did want to help people more than herself. But the problem is that since then a lot of LL actions & indirect characterizations have made her seem more selfish & self-absorbed than out there saving the world selflessly. So I don't need a retcon or anything, but I need them to explain to the audience that it was more than just the mask falling at LLs feet that finally spurred her to being a masked vigilante/hero.

[Sunshine]

Destiny is a tricky point with LL. It was always the characters destiny to become BC so its not surprising that the writers default to that terminology. But the problem is they killed Tommy & Sara to get her to that destiny and the writers never built up anything predeaths that indicated that masked crime fighting was in the cards for LL. Perhaps if they had alluded to some physical training it would have been a little better. But instead it was just some boxing classes & lack of anger management. LL's inappropriate coping strategies with the deaths have set up a steep path to hero, that the writers want to gloss over with the destiny card. But that type of glossing just isn't always effective.

 

When SL/WC returns to SC I think they need to address that LL was doing what she was doing because she wanted to help and that her sister's death was an inspiration & not a mechanism by which LL could simply slip into her role. I don't mind that LL was destined to be a hero as BC. They set that up in the pilot when they called her Dinah. She did work in CNRI & public law as opposed to taking a more lucrative private law firm post. So there is precedence that she did want to help people more than herself. But the problem is that since then a lot of LL actions & indirect characterizations have made her seem more selfish & self-absorbed than out there saving the world selflessly. So I don't need a retcon or anything, but I need them to explain to the audience that it was more than just the mask falling at LLs feet that finally spurred her to being a masked vigilante/hero.

The problem with the so-called precedence of Laurel wanting to help people more than her self is that in the S3 FB's Quentin has to GUILT Laurel into not going off to San Francisco (IIRC)to join a big prestigious law firm. Public law was not her first choice.

[Delphi]

I agree with everything you said kismet.

I love Dinah Lance. I think she's an awesome character. So the thing is, if the writers want so terribly for Black Canary to be a part of Arrow I wouldn't care if they retconned the hell out of the character. Make her Dinah from the comics. Have her quit law and spent the entire hiatus training with the best martial artists in the world. Have her return to Starling City and open a flower shop.

They, the writers, want it both ways and they can't have it in my opinion. You can't have beautiful, selfless and premier martial artists Black Canary and at the same time have haughty, I'm always right, whiney Laurel Lance. They are the same person and the write as if she's two different characters.

[kismet]

The problem with the so-called precedence of Laurel wanting to help people more than her self is that in the S3 FB's Quentin has to GUILT Laurel into not going off to San Francisco (IIRC)to join a big prestigious law firm. Public law was not her first choice.

First choice or not... she still did it. And Tommy helped to make her see that it was something she wanted to do for herself & not just her father's guilt trip.

 

IDK, I just want them to fix this problem. Agree with @Delphi that the writers want it both ways. And in s4, its becoming too much for me to accept that she is both. Not the ways they flip flop or inconsistently write her different characters. They need to find someway to meld the character together. Like others have mentioned either we need a Laurel 3.0 or Laurel 4.0, whatever model name they want to call it.

 

But the writers have to fix this problem. Once they fix it then the directors & the acting choices can then follow suit. I will not say that those choices have been great. But I can't blame KC for having some problems acting out the rollarcoaster they gave her over the last 3 years - especially if her style is method. I can only imagine the whiplash she must feel as a performer if 1 week I'm pissed my sister is alive & throwing wineglasses and then the next week I'm cozing up to her giving advice on her current boyfriend/my ex whom I wanted to marry despite knowing he was a cheat. Then in my penultimate season when I finally get my mask & hero card they rip away my one stable & successful relationship by having me lie to my father for plot reasons - thus forever betraying our trust. Its just a lot to mentally process & emote as an actor, never mind a method actor.

Edited June 3, 2015 by kismet

[Sakura12]

From what I've seen Cassidy thinks "Method" means taking on the physical traits only. When she was a drug addict, she lost weight. Now she's a hero, she put on muscle. She added nothing else to the character to make me think she was any of those things. Acting is not like putting on a new outfit, you have still have to build the character and add the emotion. She has the same facial expression and body posture for drunk Laurel and sober Laurel and the same for badass Laurel and kidnap victim Laurel. I can't see any differences. 

 

While Tatiana Maslany is miles above Cassidy she might as well be on a different planet in terms of acting. But she is an example of someone that does use the costuming and accents for her character but she brings all the different characters to life and they are so different that you forget they are all played by her. Rose McIver on iZombie in two scenes acted more like a druggie then I've ever seen Laurel do. Just because they weren't focusing on her problem in every scene doesn't mean she can't add a little something to show us that Laurel has a real problem. She needs to learn how to use her body to act so she doesn't look like a powered down robot when the scene isn't focused on her. 

[kismet]

Yea I would never put KC in the same acting category as Tatiana Maslany. She is no where near her caliber. I mean not even close by any amount of miles. The distance is far too long to measure in miles. Not sure about Rose McIver, only saw her in 2 eps of iZombie and Masters of Sex although she did do a fabulous job from what I saw.

 

I was only trying to say that her method style may be causing problems in how she is bringing her character to the screen based upon the scripts inconsistencies. Her acting is not the best and it needs some improvement - but I think it falls more on the writers to fix her stories before her acting will ever have the opportunity to change.

 

As a side note, I think method acting is a weird choice for TV series. Or at least from what I understand as method acting. It might work in movies where there is a short production schedule. But for a multi-season/multi-month shoot, to me it makes little sense to do method & delve that deeply into a character to lose connection with the outside world or bigger production. Perhaps she becomes so focused on her role that she loses her connection with the other characters and plot & that is why she seems disconnected in scenes.

[Sakura12]

You can't be a method actor on tv because it's constantly changing directions the longer it goes on. You have to be prepared to adapt to those changes sometimes from episode to episode. KC is still playing Laurel like she's in Season 1. The show has changed so much from that it's barely recognizable as that show. That's probably what's causing the huge disconnect for her character. She's not changing that much while the show is constantly changing. 

[statsgirl]

Paul Blackthorne is a method actor too.  SA has a cute bit about a scene in s1 when Quentin came across Oliver in the hospital corridor and he could hear PB cursing at Oliver Queen as he prepared for the scene.

 

I think KC's bigger problem is not method acting but that she is limited in her understanding of the character of Laurel. When it's a scene with Sara, she pulls in her relationships with her own sisters, when it's about Laurel being brave&strong, she goes to what the producers told her about Laurel when she got the job.  Meanwhile, the EPs vision of Laurel has changed, and it's probably not cohesive even now.   When something like that happens, it's up to the actor to maintain cohesion for the character (e.g. SA saying that Oliver would not drive a BMW in 3x23, EBR insisting Felicity keep her glasses and ponytail in s2) but I don't think KC does that with Laurel (e.g. her comments on Laurel's Black Canary costume).

 

That's why I think her scenes with Paul Blackthorne are so good, because they rehearse together over and over and get the nuances of Laurel right. With the other actors, either they don't have the time (e.g. SA) or they don't work like that and so the end result is less than it could be.

 

 

First choice or not... she still did it. And Tommy helped to make her see that it was something she wanted to do for herself & not just her father's guilt trip.

The problem is that in season 2 she did practically nothing for anyone else.  It was Laurel! Laurel! Laurel! all the time.  (I'd argue that there was quite a bit of that in s1 too especially in her treatment of Dinah.)    And then in s3, she donned the mask for her own reasons, not to help others.

 

The writing needs to be more linear for the character, and the actress needs to make us believe that even when the writing screws up, underneath her current actions, Dinah Laurel Lance is still trying to save the world rather than do it for her own glory.

Edited June 3, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

Paul Blackthorne is a method actor too.  SA has a cute bit about a scene in s1 when Quentin came across Oliver in the hospital corridor and he could hear PB cursing at Oliver Queen as he prepared for the scene.

-----------

 

The writing needs to be more linear for the character, and the actress needs to make us believe that even when the writing screws up, underneath her current actions, Dinah Laurel Lance is still trying to save the world rather than do it for her own glory.

The bold nailed it on the head.

 

Love PB and his acting with KC. But his role is also very small (wish it was bigger), so for him to be method is not as detrimental because there are huge chunks of time off between his scenes & filmings. He mentioned in his FB interview w/ SA that he often walks around Vancouver to get back in character & think about the Lances. He has that luxury. In fact, it might actually be necessary since he does have time off so it might just be his way to reconnect. Meanwhile, KC/LL is featured heavily on the show, with her role only getting possibly getting bigger. She doesn't have that luxury to keep her character so restricted to her method. So as Sakura12 & you mentioned she needs to be more adaptable and changing as the role/show/scripts are constantly evolving or changing. She needs to be willing to change her acting along with the EPs vision, while helping to keep it cohesive & organic to the character like the SA & ERB examples you mentioned.

[BkWurm1]

First choice or not... she still did it. And Tommy helped to make her see that it was something she wanted to do for herself & not just her father's guilt trip

 

Yes, but until they wrote it in the script I at least never questioned Laurel's initial instinct to help others as a lawyer.  Now I know that had her dad not had as much to drink that day she wouldn't have even lived in Starling when Oliver Queen returned.  It's not so much wonder about what could have been that gets me but I'm doing my hardest to stop disliking LL and the show runners are conscious that once again LL is undergoing a rehabilitation to her character and what's more, they even seemed to be succeeding, why oh why would they go back and introduce history that could make an issue out of something that never was an issue. 

 

If they intended to show how much she's always cared, they failed because it was much better when she wanted it the whole time.  If they still wanted her dad to have his rant, then she could have at the end tell him he was misinformed, that she had the offer but her heart wasn't in corporate law blah, blah, blah.  Why do they shoot themselves in the foot when they write her on top of all the other issues??

Edited June 4, 2015 by BkWurm1

[SmallScreenDiva]

Putting this here instead of the media thread since Laura Hurley writes exclusively about What Worked and What Didn't for Laurel Lance in S3.

Edited June 4, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[EmeraldArcher]

Yes, but until they wrote it in the script I at least never questioned Laurel's initial instinct to help others as a lawyer. Now I know that had her dad not had as much to drink that day she wouldn't have even lived in Starling when Oliver Queen returned. It's not so much wonder about what could have been that gets me but I'm doing my hardest to stop disliking LL and the show runners are conscious that once again LL is undergoing a rehabilitation to her character and what's more, they even seemed to be succeeding, why oh why would they go back and introduce history that could make an issue out of something that never was an issue.

If they intended to show how much she's always cared, they failed because it was much better when she wanted it the whole time. If they still wanted her dad to have his rant, then she could have at the end tell him he was misinformed, that she had the offer but her heart wasn't in corporate law blah, blah, blah. Why do they shoot themselves in the foot when they write her on top of all the other issues??

I think it's because they think LL's long suffering is admirable instead of the exhausting endurance exercise to muster any craps left to give for the audience.

I liked Laura Hurley's piece on LL in S3. I think she should have covered the Vertigo-fueled fight between Canary and Black Canary during which both women articulated the audience's major concerns with LL's pathway to becoming BC: they hit almost every one, from LL being selfish and a liar, fraud, and addict to her stealing SL's life. BC's hallucination of SL asking why she had to die for Laurel to take her place was such a damaging and unnecessary bit of dialogue that left me wondering whether LL was truly an awful human being because Vertigo was revealing her worst doubts about herself.

I think the EPs or writers got hard ons thinking about a fight between two black leather clad babes and failed to consider the way it seriously undermined LL's motives and legitimacy as a potential hero.

[DeathQuaker]

One thing the writers need to do is stop talking to the audience through the characters. They do this especially with Laurel and things people say about her, but they also do this with most of the other characters as well. The "Canaries" fight I liked the idea of, but the dialogue indeed felt very stilted, like a message board post rather than a conversation (not even a hallucinated conversation).

 

I think they indeed made a huge mistake moving Laurel from CNRI to the DA's office---I really liked it in season 1 when she got so passionate about her cases (Adam Hunt, protecting the little boy) and I don't think that's really ever been the same in subsequent seasons. They've forgotten about that protective instinct and emphasizing that would really help the character. I feel like the writers think, though, that since they established that in S1 they don't have to repeat it. They've likewise done the same with other characters (Felicity I think suffered from that lack of consistency this season--we didn't see her expressing her concern for others as much this season either), and that's really problematic.

 

Slight tangent: I'm a big comic book fan, and have nearly every issue of pre-New52 Birds of Prey and the whole run of Green Arrow/Black Canary. Comics' Dinah Laurel Lance and Arrow's Laurel have a lot more in common than I think some realize because they don't get past the differences in martial arts skill, but of course a character is much more than martial arts skill. She originally became Black Canary in secret behind her parents' backs because they didn't want her taking up her mother's mantle and lied about what she was often up to, and insisted on becoming a vigilante even though many feared for her safety (even if circumstances were slightly different, sound familiar?). There was a period of time where after getting kidnapped and tortured, because the bad guy wanted to get to Oliver Queen (in the Longbow Hunters), she pretty much gave up on everything and went through a very self-centered, self-pitying phase (sound familiar?). (Oracle in this case was the one who talked her out of it and convinced her to work for her, and Dinah eventually got over it.) As written in Birds of Prey particularly (by Chuck Dixon and later by Gail Simone, amongst a few others' more brief runs), Dinah could be crazy hyperfocused on wanting to do things her way even if it wasn't always for the best (sound familiar?). Especially early on when their partnership was more professional, she would frequently defy Oracle's orders even though she was agreeing to work for Oracle and Oracle usually was issuing a certain order for good reason, and I remember one early story in particular where Dinah specifically defied Oracle's orders AND lied to Oracle about it because she felt what Oracle wanted to do was wrong (it was an issue of both having good intentions, but Oracle wanting to do something more pragmatic and slightly unethical--BUT would also have probably nipped a bigger problem in the bud more effectively). She very frequently got herself in circumstances by herself that she couldn't handle because she was stubbornly insisting on taking something on she shouldn't have (sound familiar?)--the original series writer Chuck Dixon said the series was about the heroines in fact constantly being in over their heads. Someone could certainly look at many old Black Canary centered stories and see her as selfish, as a liar, as defiant of her family, as someone who was too stubborn for her own good and never knew her own limitations. So what makes her popular and likeable? The fact that she was always driven to help, that she had this insanely strong protective streak, that even when she was doing something infuriating, she was motivated by something good (like, hypothetically, say, lying to a family member about a crucial thing because she was worried for that family member's health). That she had a strong sense of loyalty. That while she would sometimes go through a self-pitying phase, she would pick herself up and work and train to make herself stronger (one thing I liked about Black Canary was she seldom rested on her *cough* laurels and was often training to improve her skills--she didn't start her career as the 3rd best martial artist in the DCU, it was a long time till she got there in fact). I think they have AT TIMES shown Laurel to also have these positive traits as well, but they are nowhere near consistent in showing them, and I think they presume the audience remembers that she's got this loyalty and compassion because of past events without reminding them through little dialogue mentions etc. And I do think the problem is in the writing and editing, not the acting or innate character--I think the writers presume too much and don't show enough. It's sad because I like this show and a lot of their characterization has potential but they often fail to drive it home for these reasons. (And again, they do this to other characters too, like Oliver, in fact, but this is the Laurel thread so I won't digress).

Edited June 4, 2015 by DeathQuaker

[tarotx]

The thing is that all of those traits fit DLL's comic back story. They don't fit our Laurel especially given she's not an only child. She's a first born and one who finished college and became a lawyer and worked as an assistant DA trying cases.

Sara's only two years younger but they felt right on her. And Caity herself isn't an acting master. They just cast her well.

Imo. Laurel doesn't have the synergy of her Comic character. She's more uptight and defensive women than spoiled girl determined to have her dreams come true.

Edited June 4, 2015 by tarotx

[Carrie Ann]

That is super interesting, DeathQuaker. Thanks for taking the time to write all of that up!

 

The breakdown was really down to the conception of Laurel as a character vs. what actually happened onscreen vs. what would have been helpful for her eventually becoming the Black Canary. The writers forgot to actually show Laurel exhibiting any of the traits they felt defined her. It would have been better to just lean in to some of her less appealing moments, and then bring her back in as you describe, by being incredibly protective of others, maybe even against her better judgment. An example of this type of complicated heroine is Sarah Manning from Orphan Black, if any of you watch that. She can be domineering and short-sighted sometimes, and started out pretty self-focused, but she can't stop herself from helping other people.

[Sakura12]

Yes, Dinah Lance is more then just martial arts skills, but that is a defining skill that lets her be a vigilante. Without it, it's like why is she going out there to beat people up when she doesn't know how too? 

 

I can't just go be a fire fighter or be a police officer because I don't have the skills/training need for those professions. Only having Dinah's stubbornness and lying traits does not make a good character to root for. 

 

Sara was also very stubborn and often went around Oliver's leadership choices if she felt he was making the wrong choice. Going after the Huntress when he said not too, deciding that Roy needed to be put down. She didn't want her family to know she was alive to protect them from the person she became. She protected women from rapist, she took in an orphan girl because a man she met for 2 minutes asked her too. However what made her root able at least to me is she recognized her flaws and accepted them. "I wanted to kill, Roy". "I looked into the eyes of the devil and gave him my soul". She even ran away from the League when she knew that they killed deserters. She did what she wanted to do. 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Sakura12

[kismet]

Thanks for the tangent! I can see some the the parallels from the comic to this LL. Don't have the comic book knowledge, so its nice when you guys that do have it share it on the threads.

[Betweenthisandthat]

I think they indeed made a huge mistake moving Laurel from CNRI to the DA's office---I really liked it in season 1 when she got so passionate about her cases

 

 

This is when she stood out for me.  Season 1 is still my favorite season of the show because it was about protecting the city from a real threat and how class issues fed into that.  Maybe that's not what the comics focused on but season 1 had a real concern for the people living in the city that made Arrow feel like it was more than a comic book or CW show, and Laurel was part of that.  She had a job that was about protecting people who couldn't afford it, and was her trying to be a hero in her own way without a mask and without the glory. I wish that arc hadn't ended or that like season 2, there was a way to bring her in contact with the big bad of the season so that team Arrow's "street justice" better intersected with actual law and order so that she and Quentin would have more relevance to the main action.

 

Despite that, I don't see Laurel as uncaring or unfeeling or cold or whatever.  I don't think that about any of the characters, but she is written inconsistently to fit whatever the writers think people on message boards will respond to, and that only weakens the writing for her character and the show in general. I liked seeing her connection to Nyssa, but then the writers didn't give her much to do with Thea, who she's possibly known most of her life, or Oliver, who was once the love of her life, and even her relationship with Nyssa came and went when it fit the plot. So at times her relationships to the closest people in her life feel shallow when they weren't originally and shouldn't be now.  I don't blame casting or KC for that.  There are times when I can buy what all the characters are doing and feeling, so the casting for all the characters has worked for me when the writing works.

[kismet]

Her casting had never bothered me beyond the fact that she had no chemistry with SA & that torpedoed the whole star-crossed lovers thing. But then again, it might have been serendipitous as it gave us O&F which I think I like better than the arc they were setting up with LL.

I do think she has chemistry with PB, CD, WH, BR & CL; so her casting is not without merit to some degree considering her preexisting relationship with the CW. So many of the problems fall on the writing.

Yes there are ways her acting choices could improve the script but perhaps that might change in s4. Now that she had reached her destiny as BC that can't be used as excuse. Hopefully they will find a way to make her more accessible and consistent.

Sidenote - TvEcho posted article about KC. Apparently she was trained as a gymnast as a child. So maybe they can write something into story that can utilize those skills if she still remembers them. Some of the posters here could maybe get their wish. :)

[tarotx]

I don't think KC's casting was problematic for 98% of her season 1 story. They were casting season 1 Laurel and not the comic book version.

The problem happened when they resurected and recast Sara and made her one of the better live action (quasi)Black Canaries ever. And then they killed Sara and forced Laurel into that role. Once Sara was Canary our Laurel needed her own superhero orgin. One that fit her Backstory and personality. Imo. I've vented about that before though.

[statsgirl]

I think it was rhythmic gymnastics KC did rather than apparatus gymnastics but maybe Laurel could start working on parkour now that Roy is gone.

 

 

I don't think KC's casting was problematic for 98% of her season 1 story. They were casting season 1 Laurel and not the comic book version.

Except they had always planned for Laurel to become the Black Canary. They should have cast not just for the pilot, but what they were going to do if the show because a reasonable hit.

 

I think KC is beautiful, especially in s1 before she got surgery, and her acting is on a par with most CW actresses and she had Q factor recognizability so I can see the logic in casting her.  The problem is that at this point the acting on Arrow is way better than your average CW show.  Susanna Thompson, Paul Blackthorne, John Barrowman, David Ramsey, Stephen Amell, Manu Bennett ....  Caity Lotz isn't the best actress but she really made me feel Sara's vulnerability and self-hurt. Willa Holland made me sympathetic to Thea even during her drug and bitch episodes, something KC didn't for Laurel.  EBR has ten years less experience but she can slay me with a vulnerable look. 

 

The show has made us a tough fandom to please.  Matt Nable had some very scathing comments directed at him.

 

KC plays a certain type of character very well.  But unless the show starts writing to her acting strengths, Laurel is probably going to be an annoyance I put up with for comics! rather than a character I actually want to see on my screen.

[Starfish35]

I watched the episode "Sara" last night. I didn't watch it the first time around because I was still furious over Sara's death.

I just....wow. I've been struggling to put into words why I hated Laurel so much in that episode. By all rights, she should have been the most sympathetic character of the episode. Her sister died in front of her, she's in shock, grieving, angry.....on paper totally relatable. But, bar a couple of quiet moments talking to Oliver, nothing about her actions or KC's performance in that entire episode felt real or organic to me. It all felt entirely manufactured. Her wails of "it's not fair". Her sobbing in Oliver's arms. Her anger. Her beating up a helpless victim in a hospital bed. Her attempt to kill Komodo. And I wanted to throw something at her when she picked up Sara's jacket and stared at it. You could almost see the sign over her head in big letters *FORESHADOWING*. It was all so heavy-handed.

Some of this is not KC's fault, I will admit. The ridiculous plot contrivances that demanded she not call 911 when her sister fell off the roof in front of her, or at the very least call Oliver. I'm sure they thought it would be so dramatic to have all of the team walk in to find Sara lying on the table, but it was one of the stupidest calls this show's ever made, because it directly reflects on Laurel. Beyond the question of how exactly she got her down there (with all of the arrows sticking out of her no less), it begs, no, screams the question of what kind of person does that? Seriously. First, when Sara falls off the roof in front of her, she immediately assumed dead. She doesn't check for a pulse, she doesn't try to get a response, she doesn't scream for help, she doesn't call 911. Then after that, she somehow manages to pick Sara up, with all the arrows still sticking out of her, and carry her down to the ArrowCave (or maybe she drags her), lift her on the table, and then sit there staring at her. For hours. Never once during any of that time does it occur to her to call for help. And yet, when the team comes in, she is not so in shock that she can't stand up and throw herself into Oliver's arms wailing about "it's not fair." If they'd come in and Laurel was in such a state of shock that she could barely talk or function, I could understand some of this. But she's not. And she nearly instantaneously jumps into revenge mode. So...... None of it makes sense. And I think part of why I don't buy Laurel's grief and anger throughout the rest of the episode is because I can't make this part make sense to me.

I also don't buy Laurel's wailing about "it's not fair" and "we just got her back" when she so blithely waved her off to go back to the LoA at the end of last season. It's not like Sara's been hanging around having sister bonding times. They didn't actually have her back for more than, what, two months? Maybe? Maybe if Laurel had been a bit more upset about letting Sara leave last season.....I don't know.

Another thing, Laurel not telling her dad, is also a complete plot contrivance. They needed a reason for Quentin to turn against the Arrow at the end of the season. Thus the heart condition was invented as a reason for Laurel not to tell Quentin so that when he did find out he would react very badly.

But the acting....that's on KC. I know mileage varies on this. What one sees, another doesn't. This is just my perception. But I didn't buy it. I didn't buy her grief. I wasn't buying her anger or rage, or feeling whatever it was that drove her to inflict pain on a guy in a hospital bed. I didn't feel the grief and rage that fueled her attempt to kill Komodo. And the most frustrating thing was that she should have been the one I felt the most from. I felt the emotion coming from everyone else. Everyone else in the episode felt real to me (SA particularly put in one of the best performances I think I've ever seen from him). But I just can't connect with KC. It just felt...well, manufactured, like I said before. And it is just so entirely frustrating.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

I know people try to stick up for KC and blame the writing and while I admit I have no idea what the writers are tying to accomplish with her character. I've seen many actors rise above crappy writing and become fan favorites. It's because they add more to their character then what is written in the script. As mentioned CL is not the strongest actress but she used her body to help her act and it added more to her character. Even when the scene isn't focused on her you can still see her doing something. I remember a scene when Oliver and Felicity were talking about something in the foreground, you can see Diggle and Sara talking and laughing in the background, we don't know what they are talking about and I don't know if it was part of the scene or DR and CL added it. Small things like that can help build their characters. Since Dig named his daughter after her, I can assume they became warrior besties after that scene. :D

 

Cassidy always just stands there like a powered down robot and since she's still standing on her mark she knows she's still in the shot. She needs to do something and not just come to life when the scene focuses on her. 

Edited June 5, 2015 by Sakura12

[charliesan]

I feel so bad because I loved Katie Cassidy on Melrose Place, to me, everything about that show sucked except for her, so I had great expectations when she was cast in Arrow.

 

I agree with the poster that says KC is good for certain roles, I think she's good when she's playing the bitchy/fun characters, so I would hope LL leans towards that as opposed to looking miserable all the time, actually, I thought that was what she was going to go for with this character, but of well. 

[Starfish35]

I sometimes wish I knew KC from something else so that I could have an idea of what she'd be like in a different role, but I really only know her from this show. I vaguely remember her on SPN, but I quit watching that show somewhere around the episode Red Sky at Morning, so I didn't see a whole lot of her (looking at IMDb, it looks like I would have only seen her in two episodes).

[Chaser]

They should have Veronica Mars'd Laurel. Have her be the sweet, native girl in the flashbacks and then snarky, world weary woman in the present. She could still have been working at CNRI in S1, but add some sarcasm and some jade to her interactions. It would have made sense for Laurel and for KC.  

[Genki]

I actually think the right tone for Laurel as character is what Audrey Marie Anderson achieves as Lyla. Tough and competent but soft and heartfelt where it matters. 

[statsgirl]

Genki, I like it.  As well as being tough when she needs to be and loving to her family, Lyla is also a character who does what needs to be done, even if others don't like it.  It would have worked for Laurel in donning the black leather in s3 as well as in her CNRI days and blackmailing Kate Spencer in s2.

[AyChihuahua]

It's chicken-egg question, of course, but personally I believe the writing for Laurel has been so inconsistent because the actress continuously fails.  They had a plan for Laurel, but she couldn't pull it off, so they came up with a different plan, she couldn't pull that off, and so forth.  I am the last person to defend these writers post-S2, but I find it suspicious that they did characterization pretty well in S1 and S2 for everyone EXCEPT Laurel.  So I think the crap writing for her came about because of the crap acting.  The lack of chemistry with SA is probably no one's fault, but even in S1 she came across as very brittle and cold, which cannot possibly be what the EPs wanted for the primary love interest.  For me the best compare/contrast is Iris on The Flash...that character is not particularly well-written, but the actress makes the writing look at least a little better, whereas KC makes it worse.

[Morrigan2575]

I actually think the right tone for Laurel as character is what Audrey Marie Anderson achieves as Lyla. Tough and competent but soft and heartfelt where it matters.

On paper sure but, what has KC ever done to show she's capable of that? She plays 1 note and only one note in everything she does, there's no nuance to her acting.

Not Directed At Anyone, Just General Bitching.

«rant»

Her fans are always quick to blame everyone else. It's the fault of writer, director, editor, other actors, it's never her fault when she's off in a scene.

Of course this totally ignores KC's own comments about requiring the writers explain why Laurel would deliver lines so she knows how to perform that scene because she's a "method" actor. How KC has given interviews that she knows what Laurel would say and how she would act and has even convinced writers that they gave Laurel the wrong lines.

Blaming everyone else ignores the fact that KC occasionally takes pictures of her script, pen and notepad with comments like "homework time". Not to mention the fact that she's at table reads where they go through the script together with other actors and the MG so she can ask what her "motivation is" in every scene.

Obviously KC is only worthy of praise when she gets something right but, the 95% of the time when she's a complete blank slate of suck well it's just not her fault.

I guess that Chinese Coke commercial was written and directed by a monkey or something because it certainly wasn't her fault she was embarrassingly bad. «/rant»

Edited June 6, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[olicityfan25]

Morrigan2575 so spot on.

Edited June 6, 2015 by olicityfan25

[Chaser]

This is random but I'm watching a Law & Order marathon and Abbie Carmichael is what Laurel should have been. Angie Harmon nailed the tough as nails, ball buster with a soft side. 

[lemotomato]

I guess that Chinese Coke commercial was written and directed by a monkey or something because it certainly wasn't her fault she was embarrassingly bad. «/rant»

I just watched the commercial. Was her last line supposed to be a dig at the critics of her BC storyline?

[pivot]

I sometimes wish I knew KC from something else so that I could have an idea of what she'd be like in a different role, but I really only know her from this show. I vaguely remember her on SPN, but I quit watching that show somewhere around the episode Red Sky at Morning, so I didn't see a whole lot of her (looking at IMDb, it looks like I would have only seen her in two episodes).

I've seen her in other things. She actually got out-acted by Selena Gomez in Monte Carlo. That should tell you something. KC just can't act. She would have fit in fine on 7th Heaven or some other badly acted CW show, but the acting on Arrow is too good for KC to hide her lack of talent.

[wingster55]

She actually got out-acted by Selena Gomez in Monte Carlo.

 

SG's not bad...I mean what?

[olicityfan25]

I was re-watching 7th heaven and Katie Cassidy was on there for a few episodes.

[kismet]

It might have been that I was snowed in. Or perhaps I had little expectations of the movie. Or maybe I just love Cory Monteith. But I didn't think KCs acting was all that bad in Monte Carlo. I thought the movie was pretty enjoyable for what it was. It was a fun lighthearted rom-com that will play on ABC Family & make people smile.

 

I feel like perhaps KC takes her acting on Arrow too seriously. So many of her scenes feel over the top. I don't feel that natural emotional wave or connection that reaches the audience like some of the other characters have. With SA & ERB, even when they are saying some of the lines, you can feel that there is more being left unsaid with their eyes or their posturing. CL made you feel sympathetic for her character even when she was being cold-hearted or assassin like. KC just feels very methodical & robotic in a lot of her delivery.

 

When she is with PB or CD, I feel like they are able to catch her off guard and bring more dimension & emotional connection to LL, which as an audience member I feel more. Cisco was able to do it on the Flash as well. And for the few scenes she had with BR, I also thought those were convincing moments of interaction for both of those characters. They both felt human in that scene, as opposed to the robotic tendencies they had for most of their previous work on s3. However, since joining TA, I don't feel like any of her interactions have made me feel that spark. Except for when she is bitchy, because KC does play very convincing bitch (its a skill & compliment to her acting ability). If she is going to a member of the team I want her to feel like she belongs there. CH is not the greatest actor, but I never found him out of place in the foundry. He found a way to make his character seem like he was part of the team. When KC is down there, I'm still wondering why she is there.

 

IDK, the writing/story lines have been atrocious for a lot of LL/BC, but KC has also not been able to bring that special dimension to her character that makes you overlook the flaws in the writing. There have been great moments where she has, but overall its just been kinda meh from an acting perspective. So as much as I think the writing most definitely needs to improve, I do think that KC needs to let go a little more on set and really just feel her character & develop an emotional connection that overcomes the inconsistent/potentially not so good scripts.

[pivot]

I liked Monte Carlo too but the scenes with KC at the center were pretty bad. She just can't act and her snotty demeanor took all the light-hearted fun out of the scene. She seems like she can only play one note - bitchy, know-it-all. I don't know if that is her real personality or what. But, that is all she has to offer on-camera.

[Sakura12]

If they had said Laurel was a bitchy know-it-all I probably would've liked her character. But they said she was kind hearted, nice and the savior of the world. None of that was every portrayed on screen by KC. I did however get bitchy know-it-all from her performances. 

 

But I am finally understanding why KC has terrible interviews, she just copies whatever the EP say about the show and her character and what the EP's say rarely ever translates onscreen. You'd think being a "method" actor she'd have tons of her own thoughts about her character to talk about in interviews. She never does, it's always the same talking points with her. I don't think "method" means what she thinks it means. 

[EmeraldArcher]

I have a question for those of you discussing KC's previous roles: Have her eyelashes always looked like they do on Arrow, or is that part of LL's look? I've been doing my series re-watch, and I fixate on her eyelashes whenever she's on screen. I'm thinking that they can't be real--right? If they are real, they're seriously the longest, spindliest lashes I've ever seen.

[wonderwall]

I have a question for those of you discussing KC's previous roles: Have her eyelashes always looked like they do on Arrow, or is that part of LL's look? I've been doing my series re-watch, and I fixate on her eyelashes whenever she's on screen. I'm thinking that they can't be real--right? If they are real, they're seriously the longest, spindliest lashes I've ever seen.

I've always noticed it and I occasionally ask people here if they notice it too. Her eyelashes bother me so damn much! It's too spidery and it's super annoying and weird looking. I honestly thought I was being too critical by bringing it up but I'm glad someone else noticed it too!