Oliver Queen: The Arrow

[Lisin]

I always thought they limited the shirtless scenes, because it was too hard for SA to keep this chiselled, ripped look constantly all year long: All the workouts + the whole low-carb-&-fat/no-sugar,-dairy-&-gluten-diet, that is quite a sacrifice!!! And wasn't he pretty ill at the end of S1?(I remember one answer during a Q&A on a CON where he announced that he was going to include gluten in his diet again, because "life is so short". And it seems that once in a while he really likes his beer! :-)

 

I think you're right. He said on a podcast that he basically didn't think it was healthy to keep that pace so he asked to be shirtless less in the upcoming seasons. I mean really, doing that salmon ladder while also performing dialogue has to be really really hard. I totally feel for him, even if it means less of the shirtless scenes. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I thought apinknightmare said something about SA requesting to be shirtless less because of the time that it takes to apply everything, but with a bajillion threads in here, I'll never ever find that comment again, so I could be completely wrong.

[Lisin]

I'm sure it's a combination of several factors, I mean it all just seems like a lot of work and very time consuming so really I'm guessing it's all of that combined that makes it so he isn't shirtless every single episode like he was in S1. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

Yes, it was probably a combination of many things.  Tragic.  He's in peak physical shape now, and I would be expecting to see him shirtless a lot for the next couple of episodes if, you know, what just happened last episode hadn't happened.  Oh well.

[statsgirl]

David Ramsey said at Phoenix comic con that there is less shirtlessness this season because it's very hard to keep up the eight-pack, or six-pack or even a four-pack.  I guess we'll have to rely more on other factors this season to keep watching,  like you know, acting.

[ohjoy]

But, but... it's tradition! j/k (sorta)

[ohjoy]

Shirtless Oliver was never why I tuned in, but it was amusing and oddly comforting to know that, no matter whatever horribly insane development they tumbled into on this show, you could always promote shirtless Oliver to get (some) people to watch. Sadly, that too has gone by the wayside. How will I know for sure it's Oliver if I can't see the scars and tatoos?

 

[Trini]

But, but... it's tradition! j/k (sorta)

 

Heh! I don't remember which website it was, but someone was lamenting the lack of shirtlessness, saying that the show was forgetting its branding, and I laughed because I thought it was hyperbole. Then I found out that the show had put out posters(?) of all the guys and their abs for season 2.

[foreverevolving]

I think Stephen said that in order for the tattoos and scars to be applied he has to be on set at least an hour earlier then everyone else, i think it was 6 or 7am. Not having to do it means he has an extra hour of sleep every morning or afternoon if they're shooting night time.

Also.. The diet stuff, i would go crazy having so many stuff omitted from my "can eat" list and i eat pretty healthy and sort of low fat, as it is, but take away my yeasted doughs and chocolate and butter and watch me turn on you faster than the flash.

Edited December 16, 2014 by foreverevolving

[KittenPokerCheater]

Orion, that is a cool article.  I don't think we have seen Oliver get his russian mafia tattoo yet, have we?  How disappointing that Oliver got his "tooth mark " tattoo in the first season and I somehow missed it.  I was hoping the "teeth marks" was coming up in some cool epic Arrow somewhere that is not Hong Koma.  I don't want to know where all his scars/tats came from until the end of the series.

 

As for the shirtlessness, I get how hard a carb free diet is, but I also know that there are many "cheats" there are- air brushing is only one of them.  (There are less legal ways as well, but I hope he's not doing them). If they give him a week or two of notice, it's possible to get into shirtless shape, as long as he is in decent shape to begin with (which he has been as long as I've seen him act).

 

I'm pretty sure we'd love SA and his abs even if he's had a few bottles from his vineyard or brewery.wine.  It is possible to enjoy a carb or two and still have great abs.  He doesn't have to be perfect.

I kind of miss the PSTD Oliver from the pilot.  I liked how "raw" he was.  He has (up until the last episode) seemed to be a little too comfortable in his tortured hero never gets the girl angst.  Oh, hurry up January.

[Carrie Ann]

Based on that podcast interview he did with Aisha Tyler, I really don't think Stephen's issue with unnecessary shirtless scenes is the condition of his body. He really seemed unconcerned about that side of it--including the idea that he would have to crash diet or cut out carbs completely or anything like that--probably because he has a pretty crazy workout regimen that doesn't really allow for him to, you know, go soft.

 

I really think it's about the added time of getting the scars and tattoos put on, and that's it. Even if it's only 90 minutes, that's actual time in his life that he doesn't have to be on set. It's not like that 90 minutes is subtracted elsewhere in his work schedule. And it might be more than that, if they have to split up the scene somehow over two days, or if he's shirtless for multiple scenes in an episode. So he just asked that they limit it, and they have. I miss it, but that's what Tumblr gifsets are for.

[statsgirl]

From the spoiler thread:

Thematically speaking, the one thing Oliver can bring to the table that no one else can is probably going to be a real passion for (the city, the business, Felicity). In the premiere, she says just that to him. He has passion for QC, and that's why he should fight for his place there, even though on paper he is not the strongest choice, both on credentials and on past performance.

Same with the city and Felicity.

Oliver will probably feel

replaceable like she did when Sara was able to perform some of her duties. But Felicity isn't there just to execute a function, she's there because she is who she is.

And Oliver will look around at others doing a fine job with the business and his two cities (hah) and wonder why he should impose himself there.

The answer is he should impose himself because there's real love there, and there's real value in that.

You can't just accept things, Oliver.

So I think his dilemma will turn out to be that alllll these heroes at first says to him "I am redundant" and he thinks he isn't wanted or needed, but will figure out how to process this correctly. He isn't alone, he can rely on others, he can be part of a larger team, and he can actually have that life he knows he wants

.

 

 

I agree with most of what you wrote, ostentatious, except for the part about Oliver having passion for QC. As far as QC goes, all we've ever seen is that it's an obligation to him; one he couldn't even be bothered with half the time, and that he gave up without much of a fight. If he does try to get the company back, I think we need to actually see him actively caring about it. He hasn't really done that so far.

ETA: I know Felicity said he cared about the people who work there, and I'm sure he does-he's not a heartless bastard, but he hasn't really done anything at all to show us that. Quite the opposite, actually.

 

 

Which makes me wonder what he'll do to get it back. Bring in Walter? Concerning Felicity and Oliver and even Thea and Oliver, there's been enough bread crumbs to see he's getting there with them. But QC, it's like he's literally forgotten about his family's legacy. Ray is doing a great job, what exactly is Oliver going to offer?

 

 

I was going to suggest that maybe as Ray gets into the hero business that maybe he'd want to turn over some of his duties to Oliver but the more I thought of it, I think even a part time Palmer as a CEO is more qualified than a full time Oliver, lol.   

Since Oliver dropped out or got kicked out of four different universities, while he's really good at shooting arrows, a business education is something he doesn't have.  Right there, that's a huge handicap.

 

Added to the fact that in s2 he was more interested in putting bad guys away and dealing with Slade than running QC, no wonder he did such a bad job as CEO.

 

I'm torn about whether he had a passion for QC. On one hand, it is his family's company and his legacy.  On the other, he was fine with Ray Palmer taking it over although that may have been a reaction to being overwhelmed between the vertigo, fighting for the company, and feeling he couldn't be Oliver Queen.

 

I think it all ends up being about what he wants to do.  I feel that skills are transferable -- that what makes him a good leader of Team Arrow could also make him a good leader at QC -- and that he can hire the people with business degrees.  Just as Moira did when Robert died, he can take over the job and do it.

 

If he wants to.

[foreverevolving]

I think we should all also remember that Oliver was probably (to a degree) prepped from a young age to eventually take over QC - Robert probably had discussed some matters of the daily running of the company with Oliver, explaining some things and so forth (whether Oliver had any desire to listen or not, also i'll be shocked if company matters were not also discussed at the dinner table).

I would also find it very hard to believe that two very powerful "alpha" people as Moira and Robert did not installed in the general knowledge and feeling that he is a leader or was born to be one, otherwise he would have never have been able to become one.

I personally believe in the: you either have it or you don't mentality - and when you have it you have to cultivate it or it goes to waste. In Oliver's case, I do think he is a natural born leader but that skill was never cultivated nor called upon up until the 5 years away, probably due to the pampered life-style he was raised in; as a trust fund baby never having to worry about anything, he grew up with zero responsibility except the vague knowledge of "one day all of this will be yours", for a trust fund baby i would imagine this means: continue to party while someone else would run the company. no responsibilities, no obligations.. like a would be king where the world is his oyster, with the click of his fingers he can anything and anyone he wants.. who needs to cultivate anything when the money makes it happen.

If you want a good example let's look at Tommy! and the transformation he went through in season one. that probably eventually would have been Oliver had the Gambit sinking would not have happened, eventually his dad would have grown tired and would have probably done something to straighten Oliver's head out similar to what Malcolm did (except i don't think Malcolm anticipated Tommy actually growing to love not having to live under his financial thumb).

ETA: regarding Oliver lack of degree: that is not something that can not be undone. getting a business degree is not hard (and many universities to offer online programs).

Also was it ever been told if Robert graduated from a university? we assume he did, but it is also possible he did not. were we ever told if QC was founded by Robert or a different ancestor?

Edited December 22, 2014 by foreverevolving

[Kordi]

Thematically speaking, the one thing Oliver can bring to the table that no one else can is probably going to be a real passion for the city [...],

This is a response from a comment in the "Spoiler Discussion Thread". I finally didn’t put it into the thread “Hopes and Fears: How will we survive this island“ (as I announced in the “Spoiler Discussion Thread”), but into this one, because it is more a reflection about Oliver’s character than about my personal hopes for him.

As far as I got to know him in 2 1/2 seasons, I can't see that Oliver feels a real passion for the city and its citizens as such. Let me explain.

 

Oliver certainly says that he wants to save the city, and as a matter of fact he did save it several times. Besides that, I have no doubt that he always has overall good intentions (though you might argue about the means he uses to accomplish his goals, e.g. torture). However, I don’t think that – at least up until now – his motivation stems from a special love he feels for the city and its citizens, but rather from other sources.

 

In S1 his actions are driven by feelings of guilt and a desire to right his father’s (and his own) wrongs and to make amends/ atone for past sins. In S2 Oliver is  pushed forward by his desire to honor Tommy and to become a true “hero” like his dead friend (with Oliver’s ultimate criterion for a hero being the adherence to a no-killing rule). I don’t question the goodness of his motivation, but it seems to me that Oliver’s attitudes suffer from a  kind of “moral self-centredness”. IMO he is pretty self-absorbed in his moral reflections and ultimately more concerned with his own moral goodness as a person than with doing the right thing simply because it the right thing. After everything he went through and did during his five-year-crucible I am neither surprised nor do I reproach him for that.

 

But how exactly is his motivation related to Starling City? I don’t think that pre-island Oliver cared much about others in general and his fellow citizens in particular. I can’t imagine the “Ollie” of the past having much of a “social conscience”. I suppose he didn’t have many friends from other social classes. (By the way, do we know how he got to know Laurel? The Lances don’t seem to be the kind of people billionaires normally would have contact with, do they?) For certain, Oliver didn’t know anything about what it was like not to be rich. (In a pre-island flashback he complained about a boy delivering him a pizza for not having enough change for a 100 dollar bill.) 

 

How exactly has all of this changed since Oliver’s return to Starling City? I’m sure that after going through hell he stopped looking down on others who don’t have money. But is he more in touch with his fellow citizens now than he was in the past? If I remember it correcty, we’ve never seen Oliver interacting with some "normal" people on the streets. We’ve never seen him spending some time strolling through different districts of the city. In fact, we haven’t seen much of Starling City at all on “Arrow”. What makes this city Oliver’s home – apart from the fact that he grew up there? (Does he have, for example, favourite spots in the city that are dear to him? Places where he just likes to be, maybe because they are connected to some of the few happy moment of his life?) Why exactly does Oliver think it is worth fighting for Starling City? Which are the city’s distinctive qualities that Oliver cherishes? Which are the city’s specific needs that he is concerned about?

 

So far, we haven’t gotten any answers to these questions from the show. In fact, right now, Ray Palmer seems to have more enthusiasm for Starling City and a more emotional connection to it than Oliver himself! My (futile?) hope is, that in the future “Arrow” will take at least a tiny little bit of time in order to show us Oliver’s love for the city and explain us what this love is exactly built upon.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Kordi

[BkWurm1]

The closest I think we saw Oliver expressing a real love for the city and the people was in season two when he realized that the people in the Glades were really suffering (cause he heard Blood speak about it) and he wanted to do something outside of being the Arrow.  He did that gun buy back thing and then tried to throw a party to get the big wigs to cough up money (though Arrow business sent him elsewhere). I think we saw that he did care and wanted to help, but in the end, Oliver Queen got dragged through the mud because the Arrow was needed and since then, I don't think we saw Oliver trying to help outside of the Arrow, but I do think he showed that he wished he could. 

 

Maybe that was what him trying to get his company back was about.  At the time he was the only one with a proposal to get the company back on its feet but then Ray swooped in and Oliver went into full blown back peddle mode. 

[KirkB]

In the comics Oliver, at least after he came back to life, was a philanthropist who spent as much time on the streets, opening homeless shelters and using his wealth to help people as he did in the Green Arrow suit. He genuinely cared about the people of Star City. Oliver on the show, even after coming back from the island, needs to be TOLD there are homeless people and gun violence in the Glades. He half heartedly tries to lend a hand before running back to his cave. I think he has a problem seeing past the big picture, he wants to look out for the city as a whole, not the individual people in it. Not to say he doesn't care, I'm sure he does, he's just got other things on his mind.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Oliver's suit was upgraded in the Arrow/Flash crossover episode.  Artist Andy Poon posted some concept art of the new costume:

http://filmsketchr.blogspot.com/2015/01/see-concept-art-of-arrows-new-costume.html

[BkWurm1]

What I want to know, when Oliver's suit was upgraded, why the hell didn't they make it bullet proof or something.  Kevlar anyone? 

[Genki]

Wasn't it Cisco's upgrades...? Can't remember what the suit looked like when he confronted Thea in 3.09

[apinknightmare]

What I want to know, when Oliver's suit was upgraded, why the hell didn't they make it bullet proof or something.  Kevlar anyone? 

 

When Cisco was explaining the upgrades, he said it was a polymer/kevlar weave.

Edited January 19, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

He wore the new suit in 9.  I rewatched the beinning to double-check.  The upper arm changes are there, especially in the beginning scenes with the LOA ninjas.

Edited January 19, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[BkWurm1]

When Cisco was explaining the upgrades, he said it was a polymer/kevlar weave.

Oh, I missed that.  Good to know. 

 

I was watching some other unrelated show and bullets where flying and it just popped into my head how silly it was that Oliver's suit wasn't bullet proof.  Glad to know that has already been taken care of. 

[Genki]

Just some thought that I wanted to work through about Oliver...

 

IMO he is sill suffering form PTSD which is manifesting as Hyper Vigilance. Which is great for vigilante activity but it means Oliver is not healing from his Traumas.

 

I can see why, we talked about his PTS form the "5 years in hell" but he is still going through a lot of tragedy. It also seems that every time he has some small form of happiness, or drops his guard just a little, something bad happens. i.e. finding out about Moira's Lies!! Thea's parentage, fire-bombed date, Thea under the influence of MM during Summer of unseen flirting, Moira's Murder (Moira knowing about the Arrow and being proud of him then Bam Dead!!)...etc

 

I understand that Felicity has abandonment issues and has a right to be disappointed in Oliver's choices, but he has has so much trauma in 8 years. I guess I can accept him reverting back into the Arrow persona, (even though I don't want to see it) it kept him alive for so long.

 

So as much as his interaction with Felicity might be frustratingly "dangling maybes" to her, for me, I see it as Oliver longing and hoping for "Maybes". Perhaps to keep himself going in this quest.

 

I think the "I'm going to die down here"/ "I don't want to die down here" in 3.20 sums up his dilemma this season. 

 

Oliver keeps trying, but I don't think he thinks it will end happily ever after, for him. But I'm pretty sure he wants it to be. So I really hope they give him some happiness that sticks this season, because it's starting to feel like too much.

[Password]

Just some thought that I wanted to work through about Oliver...

IMO he is sill suffering form PTSD which is manifesting as Hyper Vigilance. Which is great for vigilante activity but it means Oliver is not healing from his Traumas.

I can see why, we talked about his PTS form the "5 years in hell" but he is still going through a lot of tragedy. It also seems that every time he has some small form of happiness, or drops his guard just a little, something bad happens. i.e. finding out about Moira's Lies!! Thea's parentage, fire-bombed date, Thea under the influence of MM during Summer of unseen flirting, Moira's Murder (Moira knowing about the Arrow and being proud of him then Bam Dead!!)...etc

This is the problem isn't it? He has massive PTSD from his 5 years away, and on top of that he has another 2.5 years of trauma since his return. If they won't let him deal with it, allow him to grow in some happiness he's never going to be OK. If anything, this will be the reason I quit Arrow. I can't stand that they (writers) kick him just when he lifts his head every time.

[statsgirl]

Yes, in theory.

 

In reality, I think Oliver Queen is only interesting to the EPs when he's in manpain.

[icandigit]

Full disclosure, I've only been watching the show sporadically. Is it me or did  return from the dead Oliver seem at times  more lighthearted with Tatsu? It's like Tatsu and Maseo brought out a little of the old island Oliver. Or I'm probably just so desperate to see some lightness somewhere in this show. I was surprised Oliver was barely funny.

[statsgirl]

Maybe he didn't feel like he had to be out saving the city and could relax a little with Tatsu?  From the blow-up in The Calm, it's been one thing after another for him in a thoroughly depressing season.

[AyChihuahua]

Honestly, as long as their ratings stay okay, they're going to keep doing what they've been doing.  The best thing to do is to change the channel.  Don't watch on your DVR, or Hulu, don't buy on Amazon or iTunes.  I know it's tough, but it's called tough love for a reason.  Season 4 will be more of this otherwise.  

 

As an aside, I don't feel particularly bad for Amell, because I think he thinks everything is just groovy.  I had to quit his FB page, and actually all Arrow-related pages other than Caity Lotz's, because they, and especially Amell, are so rah-rah about everything going on in the show.  If I had the feeling that he saw the problems I would be thrilled, but as of now, I don't think any of them do.

[statsgirl]

I think he does see the problems, given how uncomfortable he gets at times when asked about parts of the show and his tells when talking about KC/Laurel.  But what's the guy to do? He can't pan it, he can't even say what parts he doesn't like. All he can do it build up what he does like, which seems to be mostly the stunts these days.

[AyChihuahua]

He rah-rahs every single episode.  He uses "epic" almost as much as Guggenheim does.  There is a LOT of space between "OMG, best episode yet!" and "This show sucks; I wish to God they'd let me out of my contract."

[quarks]

He's been loudly cheering every episode for two and a half years now. If he stopped now, that would be taken as bad-mouthing.

[calliope1975]

It also seems to me that his cheering over the last few months has decreased a bit. His videos are now more about his charitable endeavors with a brief mention of the show. I could be transferring my own feelings onto him, though. 

[statsgirl]

No. I think you're right. He looked very uncomfortable on the ArrowAfterShow even while he was saying "trust the writers. "  

Edited February 19, 2015 by statsgirl

[Lady Calypso]

I think Stephen does have a lot of self-awareness. The problem for him is that he can't quite voice all his honest opinions because he's the lead of the show, and he's been the #1 Arrow cheerleader since season 2. I've been following him since halfway through season 2 and I've noticed a shift in tone and how often he actually posts about episodes and stuff, and it's gone down a little bit. I think he loved the first half of season 2 and his cheerleading was well deserved. And then the second half of season 2, it was the Slade saga and I think he really enjoyed that. But now, you can see he doesn't post as often this season as he did last season. He makes the obligatory 'the next episode is great, guys' but he doesn't go overboard like he used to. I'm not sure what his opinions of Katie Cassidy/Laurel Lance are, but he doesn't make any posts about her unless he's asked directly (or that one rare photo at the beginning of the season). He seems to love Caity Lotz; the most recent FB post I saw about Caity without prompting from anyone was last week. Ok, maybe a little bit of prompting there because of last week's episode, but he didn't hold back on how much he loves Caity. 

 

He's in a tough position for sure; he kind of has to keep talking up the episodes to get people to watch them, but he seems to focus on the better parts of the episode, rather than the weaker parts (Ray and Laurel, for example). I do feel bad for him because he wants so badly for his show to succeed, and I do love certain aspects like Oliver's journey, the stunts/fights and certain relationships, but I get why he's focusing more on his charity and his other endeavours this year. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

So this season Oliver is supposed to be struggling between being the Arrow and Oliver Queen. Am I the only one not really seeing the struggle or unable to really tell them apart? Aside from choosing not be with Felicity, it seems like every decision he's made so far is moving him closer to Oliver Queen rather than the Arrow, despite references to/warnings about losing his humanity from characters like Tatsu and Slade. He's decided to do whatever it takes to save his sister, even if that means working with the likes of Malcolm Merlyn, but that to me seems like a very Oliver Queen decision. I'm not seeing the ruthlessness (for lack of a better word) that I associate with the Arrow. I think I'm missing something here. Folks, what's your take? I'm looking at the "clock" and thinking we're running out of time, that they haven't quite established this struggle well enough. I have a speculation regarding the finale, which I'll take to the Hopes/Fears thread.

[statsgirl]

If he were really the Arrow, he would have encouraged Thea to kill Slade.  Maybe he would have shot Laurel in the knee too to keep her from going out in the field.

 

The only part I can see that he's not being Oliver Queen is with respect to Felicity.  And also that Oliver Queen seems to be the part with the intelligence because since he decided to meet Malcolm in the middle of Starling City and team up with him, he's lost at least 60 IQ points.  Maybe more, since he thinks the only way to defeat Ra's is to learn sword-fighting from MM, except he's not really doing that either.

[AyChihuahua]

One of the things I loved about Oliver was his brain.  I don't even mean learning two languages well enough to pass as a native in a couple years, I mean Jason Bourne stuff.  The one I always remember is when he was cornered by McKenna and, after walking down a hallway, knew exactly where behind him the fire extinguisher was, so that he could just turn around and shoot it.  That's awesome tactical thinking and awareness of his surroundings.  Where did that guy go?  He's so stupid now.  I really don't mind the emotional stupidity...I'm fine with him pushing Felicity away, etc., because I think that is perfectly normal for someone with his issues.  But I HATE that they're writing him as being so stupid now!

[SmallScreenDiva]

Right now, Oliver is just Merlyn's pawn. I need him to stop reacting and actually try and change his and Thea's circumstances without relying on Merlyn for anything. (I also need him to ask Diggle and Felicity about options, but I don't think the writers are going to let that happen). It's like Slade/Season 2 all over again where he was always on the defense. And yeah, I miss the Oliver who was actually smart, who uses his brain. Didn't he boast about having superior strategic skills to Barry? Where is that Oliver?

[kismet]

That is why I hope this MM plan is part of a bigger strategy, otherwise you're right, he's just a pawn. I hope when this season is done, I'll look back and say aw that was his plan... what a smart strategy. It just seems like he's reacting and not thinking. FB OQ actually seems to be more strategic at points. Maybe he just needs to take more tea or herbs, get his mind back on track.

[Kordi]

In the comments section of TV FANATIC's "Arrow Season 3 Episode 15 Review: Nanda Parbat", "Liz" wrote a very concise summery of Oliver Queen's quest for his personal identity. I think this piece is worth the read:

 

"[...] From the get-go, Season 3 clearly established that this year’s theme was identity. Namely, is he Oliver Queen or the Arrow? The not-so-subtle lines like “A man cannot live under two names” tells us he can only be one of them, but who? On one hand, he’d like to be Oliver with friends, family, and loved ones. But, at the same time, he has to be the Arrow, the savior of the city who can never rest or settle down lest he allow the bad guys to prevail.

However, through the season, they developed that Oliver may not be able to be either in the end. Take the Oliver Queen persona. He loses his company to Ray Palmer (essentially Oliver’s direct foil of billionaire-turned-superhero due to the loss of a loved one). He also loses his love interest, once again, to Ray Palmer. From ‘The Return,’ we even see that he’s slowly losing his sister due to the darkness within her (as said by Slade). He may still have Roy in his corner to a certain extent, but Roy has been showing signs of wanting to stand on his own two feet. Honestly, the only one firmly in Oliver’s corner is Dig, solidifying the brotherly bond by asking him to be the best man. But, lose this connection, Oliver Queen would essentially be gone.

On the Arrow persona front, however, it’s also not all sunshine and rainbows. Yes, the Arrow is needed and has served the city well. When the Arrow goes missing during the midseason break, all his work is quickly undone. However, the team was able to eventually retake the Glades with very little (if any) assistance from the Arrow, showing the city may survive without him. Plus, by losing to Ra’s, the Arrow now doubts his ability to win, a trait necessary to survive as said by Dig. Added to the fact that we now have Iro…ATOM to protect Starling City, the Arrow may not be as needed anymore.

Therefore, after taking away both Oliver and the Arrow, there’s no identity left. Except, now Oliver can choose a new identity. He can choose to be Ra’s heir. In a way, he can choose to be the Arrow permanently but still remain relevant. It’s a choice that questions his identity at the exact moment when all of his identities are at their most vulnerable (he would only be more vulnerable if he were to lose Dig, which I hope never happens). As for why Ra’s would give Oliver the ‘job offer,’ I think this make sense. After all, this is the same guy that threatened to level Starling to the ground one person at a time if Sara’s killer was not delivered, and he didn’t even like Sara. He did it because of justice.
Here, we have Oliver, a man who survived longer in a fight with him than most and who somehow survived plummeting to his death while killing a bunch of his men while escaping (remember, that was the cover story Maseo fed Ra’s), brave the wrath of the entire League of Assassins to save a mass murderer responsible for ruining Oliver’s life in many ways. Why is Oliver doing it? Because, to Oliver, that is justice. And, as the source material goes, Ra’s respects people who stick so adherently to their code even if it differs from his own (like a certain detective). [...]"

 

Source: http://www.tvfanatic.com/2015/02/arrow-season-3-episode-15-review-nanda-parbat/#disqus_thread

[tv echo]

That TV Fanatic analysis is pretty good.  However, it still doesn't address the issue of future challenges.  Ra's should know that his successor is also liable to be challenged for the position.  So does he really think that Oliver is capable of defeating all existing LOA members?  Or is Ra's planning to hang around to back up Oliver until Oliver has attained more fighting experience (assuming Oliver accepts his offer)?

[statsgirl]

It also doesn't address why Ra's would want Oliver when he's got Maseo and Nyssa there, and presumably a bunch of other people who are pretty good at what they do and are potential leaders of the LoA.  Oliver doesn't want the job, he doesn't have the training for the job and he's against killing.

 

It was bad enough that Waller wanted him so badly for no reason we've been told. Now Ra's wants him.  It really feels that this story has been written by an 11 year old boy.

[wonderwall]

I love asking you all questions so I have another one for you guys... Do you think that we as viewers should feel concerned that Oliver without his team/Felicity falls apart? Do you think he's too reliant on them to the point where it's unhealthy? 

Edited March 19, 2015 by wonderwall

[tv echo]

No, I think you just can't go it alone.  If Oliver had stayed solo in season 1, he would've died before the season ended.  Also, Oliver was emotionally unhealthy to begin with (PTSD, trauma, etc.), so Diggle and Felicity have been helping him get more emotionally healthy.  I also don't think he's that reliant on them.  If anything, he's still resistant to sharing info or intimacy with them.  They all rely on each other to some extent.

 

In any event, everybody needs someone.  BA/The Flash has his team.  Even BW/Batman has Alfred.

Edited March 19, 2015 by tv echo

[Kordi]

I don't think that he has any unhealthy reliance on others. On the contrary, it's his friendship with Felicity and Diggle that helps him to grow and to overcome the traumas he suffered in the past. Given what he has gone through up until now, there is no way he could resolve his issues on his own. So I'm especially happy about last night's episode, because I interpret it as a sign of character growth that he opened up and listened. He realized what he needed and took steps to get it, namely emotional support as well as advice. - Besides, it's significant IMO that he found his own answer to the question "Why am I doing all this?". He didn't ask Felicity to answer it on his part. He behaved like a mature adult who weighed his options and came up with a responsable decision.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Kordi

[dtissagirl]

I think the smartest narrative choice this show ever made was to make Oliver dependant on his team. It makes him so much more easy to identify/sympathize with.

 

I think the first reason was actually practical -- to get rid of that awful [AWFUL!] voice-over in the first couple of episodes, but the moment the show decided to get Diggle, and then Felicity, in on Oliver's secret, that's when *Oliver* also became a fully realized character. Because that's when he was interacting with characters as the actual, real Oliver, and not the phony one he was presenting to his friends and family. And that's an important thing to do in a hero's journey story. Your protagonist needs to be real at least part-time on his story, and not just on a voiceover. The audience can't be the hero's sole confidant.

 

It's interesting, actually -- looking at it from a strict analytical POV, it almost doesn't matter that it was Dig and Felicity. I mean, bonus for me because I love them both to the end of times, and Team Arrow is what makes me interested in Oliver first and foremost, but they needed to have other characters in on Oliver's secret, and it could have been anyone.

 

But Lordy, I'm glad it was Dig and Felicity.

 

And I don't think he's TOO dependant on them. I think he's the right amount of dependant on them. And actually, I think that would be an interesting story for Oliver, if he thought he was relying on them a bit too much.

Edited March 19, 2015 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

I don't think that he has any unhealthy reliance on others. On the contrary, it's his friendship with Felicity and Diggle that helps him to grow and to overcome the traumas he suffered in the past.

It is in his interactions with Diggle, Roy and Felicity that he is the healthiest.

 

With Thea, he's still trying to control her life, there is still too much lying and resentment between him and Laurel and his relationship with Moira fluctuated between love and hate.  Quentin deliberately keeps his distance.

 

All the best parts of Oliver that survived the five years come to the front when he's with being honest and getting advice from Diggle, mentoring Roy and acknowledging his mistakes, and whatever he is with Felicity,

[kismet]

So I've been thinking about OQ & another possibility why he pushes FS away after the return. If what he says to Dig is true that all he can think about is the fall and how it haunts him, than it reasons that when he looks at FS all he feels is his failures since her image is the last one he sees. Initially he couldn't be with her because it would distract him from his mission, so being around her was a reminder of all he aims to do but yet still can't accomplish. But with his last image in his mind being her, she is inextricably connected to his actual failure of protecting her life, Thea's and his life. Add to that her obvious disappointment and lack of any support in his choices when he returned, which only further pushed him away. Rather that bringing comfort to him which it used to do, being around her must make him realize that all he ever attempts at he fails. She no longer reminds of him of who he could be, but rather all he fails to be. So it might be very messed up logic, but his mind/ego has probably opted to push FS away as a means of self-protection. You know sometimes when you're around people or places that make you realize all you can be and all you fail at simultaneously, it just becomes easier or as a means of self-preservation to push those people/places out. I'm not saying it is a healthy scenario, but it is a natural coping mechanism. So in his fragile coping state, he decides to return home and try to find a way to defeat Ras through any means necessary. Its not healthy but its logical. Add on top of that the fact that he feels he is losing or lost everything that made him him it only goes to indicate how desperate he is to recapture himself that he not only teams with MM but chooses to go on a suicide mission to regain back all that he lost in the first battle. And all that he lost in the first battle was all that makes him OQ. Its not the Arrow that he is looking to regain when he returns to NP, its OQ & everything that is important to him (his family, FS, his sense of purpose). Its less about him being unable to lose and more about him recognizing that without trying to take back what Ras took he is a hollow shell. Its emotionally damaged & yet painfully logical all at the same time which is the definition of OQ.

[wonderwall]

Oddly enough - what would probably be good for her is the kind of guy Green Arrow is supposed to be.  I mean, in the comics isn't he a wisecracking smartass instead of this broody, self-loathing guy we get on Arrow?  Don't get me wrong - I love Stephen's Oliver - but I'd really like to see a bit more of the Green Arrow I saw in the Justice League cartoons my kids watch.

 

I have a basic gist of what GA is like in the comics, and I just don't think Oliver will ever be like him. I actually hope he won't because with everything Oliver's been through, it just doesn't seem realistic for me to believe Oliver would be that kind of person. :)

[nksarmi]

I have a basic gist of what GA is like in the comics, and I just don't think Oliver will ever be like him. I actually hope he won't because with everything Oliver's been through, it just doesn't seem realistic for me to believe Oliver would be that kind of person. :)

Assuming what I have seen of the cartoons and the handful of comic books I have read are accurate - I don't think we will ever get that Green Arrow.  I just don't get that smartass vibe off of Oliver - like ever (not pre-island, island or post-island Oliver).  But I'd love to see him crack of few jokes, smile a lot more, and be a little more "flip" about dangerous things.  Oliver is just so serious.....all. the. time.  I'd like to see a little more of the "Eh, it just a tank and a couple of rocket launches - we got this!" type of speeches as TA runs into danger. :)