The Villains of Once Upon a Time

[KingOfHearts]

 

I guess Regina would be comparable to alcohol addicts who become moderate drinkers. It doesn't always have to be cold turkey.

I believe in Into the Deep, when Regina had to make that sleeping curse for David, Henry told her it was fine for her to use magic if she was using it to help people. Magic is a neutral, like money or words. It can used to hurt or help, but it's not evil or good in of itself.

 

Although... there's Dark and Light magic, which makes it all the more complicated. It's my headcanon that using Dark magic for too long slowly corrupts the user, maybe because in order to use it you must focus on what makes you angriest. That's why both Regina and Rumple were somewhat decent folks until they learned the dark arts.

Edited December 31, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[MDKNIGHT]

"Would he ever give up power for her? No, but that's been well established that he wouldn't. But I think the Lacey episode does give a good example of the love there. The Outsider as well.

It's just that loving Belle isn't enough to stop him from being a horrible person"

 

I think Rumple THINKS he loves Belle and that he Loved Bae but that he is mistaken.  He really doesn't know what love is.  The way he treated Belle with the lying and the dagger and the knocking her out etc was terrible.  It showed about as much respect for a person's autonomy as if he'd rufied a woman at a party.  He murdered people in front of Bae while justifying it TO BAE as him showing concern for him.  Ex turning a guy into a snail and crushing him because the guy accidentally bumped into Bae.  Think back to being a kid.  How traumatized would you have been if you were Bae.  How guilty would you feel that somebody died because of you?  How would you like those feelings inside you linked to your father's "love"?   In other words I am saying that real love doesn't cause that much abject misery and trauma and that therefore Rumple never loved Bae or Belle or at least not since becoming the Dark One has Rumple loved anyone.  He just THINKS he does.  Regina's tiny and admittedly weak tether to humanity is that I do think she loves Henry.  She would have given up magic and jumped into a protal with Henry if she'd been in Rumple's shoes.   That doesn't mean she IS redeemed as the show keeps trying to say.  It means she still has a tiny bit of humanity left that can be worked with.  If Rumple can wipe Belle's memory and move to NY with his powers and start to magically take over the world all the while gaslighting Belle that he is a "good" man he would do it even if he has to keep perioudically mind wiping her and lying to her.  Regina (currently) doesn't want Henry's love for her to be based on a lie or having to mind wipe him.  That could change but that is where we are right now.  If Regina could expand her POV to having concern for others besides Henry or in order to hold onto Henry she could be really redeemed.  Rumple has not shown me the capacity for this.

Edited December 31, 2014 by MDKNIGHT

[Delphi]

I get what you're saying to an extent but I disagree. Sure Regina would jump through a portal for Henry, but does that negate the torture and mental abuse she inflicted on him for years trying to convince him that he was mentally disturbed? Regina is certainly less cowardly than Rumple but I don't think portal jumping means she loves him. Rumple has been tricking Belle for what, two weeks, in story. Meanwhile Regina abused her son so badly he thought fairy tales were real, stole a credit card and tracked down his bio mom to save him.

I could concede that what Regina said in season two applies fairly well to both the evil queen and the dark one and that they simply "don't know how to love very well" and that's true enough for many people who fortunately aren't blessed in magical arts to make their deeds even more appalling.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Delphi

[RadioGirl27]

Even now, Regina is a bad mother, no mather what A&E want us to believe. A good mother doesn't refuse to see her son just because her boyfriend of two days is back with his wife. And a good mother doesn't embark her son in a potentialy dangerous operation just because she is sad.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Even now, Regina is a bad mother, no mather what A&E want us to believe. A good mother doesn't refuse to see her son just because her boyfriend of two days is back with his wife. And a good mother doesn't embark her son in a potentialy dangerous operation just because she is sad.

A good mother doesn't send her son off to work for his bloodthirsty grandpa in a shop full of dangerous magic that could obliterate the town if used improperly. Oh, and I'm putting Emma into this too because sticking Henry with Regina without keeping an eye on them isn't exactly smart either. Henry is always getting into trouble and deliberately disobeying both his parents and his grandparents. I don't stick this on Regina alone either because he did the same kind of thing in New York. He's just a bratty kid with lenient parents.

 

(Not discounting Regina's abuse of Henry at all, btw. It's way worse than any mistake Emma has ever made.)

Edited December 31, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

And a good mother doesn't embark her son in a potentialy dangerous operation just because she is sad.

 

I would also like to add that a good mother doesn't pointedly ignore phone calls coming from the people who are taking care of her kid. Charming said they'd been trying to get a hold of her, which meant she ignored more than just that one phone call we saw her ignore (and roll her eyes at). Luckily all Henry had was a cut behind his ear, but what if he'd been hurt worse? What if he'd been in a car accident or what if the Snow Queen had taken him or done something to him? You'd think more than one phone call from the people taking care of her kid would have raised some kind of red flag.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KAOS Agent]

I wonder if she would have answered if Henry had called? Could she tear herself away from her boyfriend to actually be a parent? I actually don't want to drag her down too far because I do think that you need to take time for yourself sometimes, but couldn't she at least have bothered checking her voicemail to ensure that the calls weren't to tell her of an emergency? Even ignoring the fact that there was a villain in town threatening everyone, what if Henry's appendix had burst or something? 

 

I know that Lana has pushed the writers so that Regal Believer is the most loving mother/son relationship ever, but Regina did not come off well at all in 4A with regards to Henry. First by telling him to stay away while she sulks and plots murder, second by encouraging to go work for the man who thinks Henry is his undoing and has had no qualms about killing him in the past and finally by ignoring repeated calls from his caregivers that must have come in all night long. Not to mention that Henry had to have been greatly worried about his mother and her powers being out of control. Where was Regina to give him reassurance that it would all work out? Of course, she's been hanging with Robin Hood, who seemingly leaves his five year old to his own devices and has yet to find a decent place for his young son to live other than a tent in the woods. Shouldn't Roland be enrolled in kindergarten?

Edited December 31, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Dani-Ellie]

I actually don't want to drag her down too far because I do think that you need to take time for yourself sometimes, but couldn't she at least have bothered checking her voicemail to ensure that the calls weren't to tell her of an emergency?

 

Exactly. I'm not saying she should run every time the Charmings call, but her son, at the time of those calls, was being cared for by these people. People don't tend to call multiple times in succession unless it's an emergency. Hell, I once had a minor freakout when I checked my phone to find I had two missed calls from my mom about a minute apart. It turned out she'd pocket-dialed me, but my thought process while calling her back was pretty much, "OMG what the hell happened something must be wrong" even though there were no messages because she'd called me twice.

[Shanna Marie]

Didn't Regina bitch at them about how she didn't have to respond to their every summons and then immediately turn around and bitch at them about not letting her know Henry had been hurt? It was like she was mad that they'd called her and mad that she hadn't known something was wrong.

 

I just can't get behind the supposedly "loving" relationship between Henry and Regina since it was like he flipped a switch in deciding she was awesome and wonderful and shows no signs of any lingering issues from all the long-term emotional abuse, and then there's that bit about how she wiped his memories when he reacted badly to her scheme to kill everyone else so she could have him to herself. With him not knowing that, it makes their relationship seem built on a false foundation.

[ShadowFacts]

 

The one thing I'm just struggling with is how Rumple can live in Storybrooke, how anyone can talk to him like he's a normal person or whatever...but I guess Regina created a precedent and everyone who lives in SB is pretty much brain dead.

 

Yeah, they don't look very smart at all, and Regina has definitely set the precedent.  Emma wants to be friends and give Regina a happy ending after having seen her at her EvilQueen worst in the wayback machine -- burning her mother alive.  But hey, all is forgiven.  Prop up Regina and her little feelings.  Why shouldn't Henry's gramps get the same treatment? 

[Camera One]

Yeah, realistically, we must dial back expectations to absolute zero.  People will talk to Rumple again because only he will be able to help them to save themselves.  If he gets the Regina treatment, Ursula will hug Rumple really hard and he will show Sadface when Belle walks past, and we will remember how human he is  On another front, they will hammer home the point that people in glass houses can't throw stones 

by showing Snow/Charming making shady deals with the Queens of Darkness in the past, which will shock Emma and Henry into another, "I thought our family were heroes".  No doubt even Regina will be shocked at their deviant alliance. (this is not an actual spoiler but tagged it just in case... this is just working off the tease interview with A&E).

Edited December 31, 2014 by Camera One

[Mari]

I just can't get behind the supposedly "loving" relationship between Henry and Regina since it was like he flipped a switch in deciding she was awesome and wonderful and shows no signs of any lingering issues from all the long-term emotional abuse, and then there's that bit about how she wiped his memories when he reacted badly to her scheme to kill everyone else so she could have him to herself. With him not knowing that, it makes their relationship seem built on a false foundation.

Emma wants to be friends and give Regina a happy ending after having seen her at her EvilQueen worst in the wayback machine -- burning her mother alive.  But hey, all is forgiven. 

 

I have to agree with how much these things really bother me.  I usually try and fanwank it with "Regina modified their personalities when she did her last memory spell on them.", which is the same way I convince myself that the reason Snow thinks Regina is the bestest thing to ever best is because it was a side effect of the Mary Margaret curse.  Breaking the curses caused some sort of backlash, Yay!Regina! thing.  (Not particularly plausible, but it does keep the tables in my house intact.)

 

 

 

Yeah, realistically, we must dial back expectations to absolute zero.  People will talk to Rumple again because only he will be able to help them to save themselves.  If he gets the Regina treatment, Ursula will hug Rumple really hard and he will show Sadface when Belle walks past, and we will remember how human he is  

I have expectations--but I think they might be at about negative 32.  Are we really expecting him to even still be broken up with Belle at the end of the season?  If they're still broken up at the end of 4, I'll be completely shocked.  (Part of me is half expecting them to be back together in about episode 15.  I'd kind of like a survey, just to see what everyone else thinks, but figure that might be poking sticks in the Rumple/Belle fans, and I don't want to do that.)

Edited January 1, 2015 by Mari

[Rumsy4]

I don't think Rumbelle will be back together by the end of Season 4, because I expect Rumple to continue in villain mode at least part way through S5. However, I think we will see Belle wavering towards Rumple by the end of this season.

The resolution of Rumple's arc will depend on whether OUAT gets a sixth season, and whether Carlyle will want to extend his contract if they do. He seems pretty bored with the show right now. But then again, it's a steady paycheck. So, who knows...

Edited January 1, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Faemonic]

The resolution of Rumple's arc will depend on whether OUAT gets a sixth season, and whether Carlyle will want to extend his contract if they do. He seems pretty bored with the show right now. But then again, it's a steady paycheck. So, who knows...

I've been wondering about that, too. Carlyle certainly takes his craft very seriously, so it bereaves me to suggest that any performance of his could ever possibly be substandard (although the "alas I am a poor peasant coward" face, I recognized from 28 Weeks Later and was suddenly like, "Whoa, it's That Guy!") But...the way Rumple talked about choosing his own self every time there's a threat that weighs him against the lives of the town...had no subtlety. It wasn't even mustache-twirl worthy. It was just blunt, which I thought wasn't like Mr. Gold. Of course I blame the script, but I also wonder if Carlyle has nobody really to talk to about Rumple's motivations, or if the work's getting too mechanical after four years or something. Was the gloating over Milah's death line a directorial choice, or was that on Bobby? I wonder if Post-Zelena Trauma had been introduced, because I might have thought he'd play that scene differently if anyone went, "That's Rumple's motivation."

[Shanna Marie]

I could totally see Rumple reacting to having been Zelena's puppet by trying to make sure he never went through that again. But that's not how they played it. I'd think that if he were really reacting to the trauma he wouldn't have been so eager to inflict the same thing on someone else. He still would have been willing to hat Emma and still would have probably enjoyed the fact that he had to use Hook's heart to do the spell, but there would have been less gloating about it and he wouldn't have been using Hook as his puppet and enjoying that so much. He'd have been much more straightforward about it, maybe even a tiny bit apologetic, like "I know we agreed to put aside our differences, but you see, I can't let anyone use that dagger to control me again, and your heart is necessary for that. Ironic, isn't it? Who would have ever thought I'd need you so much, after all these years."

 

If he was that traumatized by having been controlled and he turned right around and did the same thing to someone else, with much sadistic glee, he loses any sympathy I might have had.

[Gold]

1.) Mr. Gold - Good or evil

I really liked how the 4th season's first half ended. Mr. Gold's character can be so confusing at times. Sometimes, I wonder if he is always trying to gain power because he is scared or greedy.  Mr. Gold's true problem is that he wants the benefits of being both a villain and a hero. The benefits of being a villain are being able to devote yourself to/and get what you want. The benefits of being a hero are having trust and relations, yet it is my firm belief that Mr. Gold simply wants the benefits of being a hero to use those trust and relationships to his advantage, whether it be for pleasure (when Mr. Gold has a relationship for pleasure, it must be noted that he will throw this away when it stands right in the way of something he truly desires) or to assist him in achieving his goals. The argument against this would be that proof lies in the episode where Mr. Gold sacrifices himself to defeat Pan, yet this is yet another selfish act. What we realize, upon further inspection, is that Mr. Gold simply did this to gain the love/trust of Neal. I feel that, while this could have been because he loved him, it was more to ease his own guilt. A hero would have sacrificed himself to save the town, but Mr. Gold's motives are clearly branded as a way to gain Neal's trust. After all, the only deal he ever broke was with Neal. In conclusion, Mr. Gold's affection (towards Belle) is real, but his desire for power is also real, and it is the latter that wins out in the end.

2.) Mr. Gold's motives explored

As I stated in the paragraph above, sometimes I wonder if Mr. Gold is after power because he is scared or greedy. I'll keep this one brief. Mr. Gold is, in reality, and contrary to what most would believe, greedy. His greed, however, stems from fear. He took the fear of losing power and ran with it. If you are in a jungle and about to be attacked by a tiger and someone gave you a rifle, you'd be happy. Mr. Gold, however, would want an automatic weapon, or whatever crazy item you can think of. The point is that eventually it becomes less about self defense and more about greed. All different motives are suggested, such as trying to rescue Baelfire and self-defense, but even when these are accomplished Mr. Gold wants more, out of greed. On a side note, Mr. Gold's patience makes him extremely dangerous. He is always invested in the future.

 

Mind if I go way off topic here? I wasn't sure where else to put this...

 

Exploring powers:

 

This is one of the more odd scenarios. Emma Swan is usually thought of as being very powerful, yet her magic is nowhere near as practical as Mr. Gold's. The dilemma here becomes how powerful Emma should become. If Emma turns out to be a Mr. Gold without the handicap of the dagger, the show is doomed. I feel that we're already headed in the wrong direction, as, currently, her powers have no known limits. Now, of course, not all limits are as obvious as the dagger. With Zelena, for example, it is clear that she is powerful, but it is also clear she has limits and weaknesses, such as light magic. Emma Swan is so absurdly powerful and unpredictable that we don't really know where she'll stop. It is, however, important to note, as I said before, that her magic is nowhere near as practical as Mr. Gold's. The day Emma Swan is teleporting, throwing fireballs and ripping out hearts is the day I stop watching.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Gold

[Camera One]

Emma Swan is so absurdly powerful and unpredictable that we don't really know where she'll stop.

 

The very fact that it's completely unpredictable means Emma's power will never be a problem.  Since Emma is a hero, the writers will forever limit her ability to do anything substantially useful or practical at will since that's the only way they sustain an arc to keep the villain a threat until the last possible moment.  They will just keep making the villain more powerful.  Look at Regina, who can practically do anything with magic, and yet Zelena threw her around like a rag-doll for the entirety of 3B until she discovered that she too can do light magic.  If anything, Regina and Rumple's unlimited powers are dooming the show.

[Gold]

Yes, I have to agree with that last statement. I'm so glad they didn't let Rumple escape from Storybrooke with his powers, but then again, how could they have? That would have ruined the show for sure. 

 

I'll won't talk about Emma, since this is definitely not the right thread and I probably shouldn't have brought it up. 

 

On another note, I feel that there has to be some change to the main characters of the story. So far, it's been the same characters thrown up against villains with Rumple never choosing a side. I mean, where are we now? Rumple is facing dilemmas with power. All of the extra characters who joined for season 4 are gone (Frozen characters, Robin). Storybrooke hasn't changed except for problems with the barrier, which is nothing new. Regina is, once again, without her love. Regina still dislikes Emma and they're slowly starting to get along, like she always has. The only change in Hook and Emma's relationship that I've noticed is more kissing. I sincerely hope that some upcoming villains will either become a part of or make a more permanent dent on the main characters. If Rumple hadn't been forced out of Storybrooke, not much would have changed, however, this was a huge change! Now, Rumple may be completely evil and set on revenge. 

[Camera One]

I'm so glad they didn't let Rumple escape from Storybrooke with his powers, but then again, how could they have? That would have ruined the show for sure.

 

I found it so unsatisfying that even without his powers, he managed to get back on his feet in just 6 weeks, and already onto his next plan of magical conquest.  

[kili]

I could totally see Rumple reacting to having been Zelena's puppet by trying to make sure he never went through that again. But that's not how they played it. I'd think that if he were really reacting to the trauma he wouldn't have been so eager to inflict the same thing on someone else.

 

People can react to abuse/trauma in different ways. One abused child can grow up to be a social worker or police officer to prevent any other children from being abused. On the other side of the spectrum are abused children who become serial killers, bullies or child abusers themselves. On this show we've seen one woman who had a difficult childhood and was left on the side of the road like garbage who grew up to be a Savior and two others who grew up Evil and Wicked respectively.

 

Rumple could be one of those people who becomes less empathetic when abused and chooses to lash out at others. We've certainly seen that happen when he became the Dark One. He does not become a benevolent Dark One (the previous one actually seems nicer from what we saw). He goes from being a bullied villager to bullying the villagers worse than he ever was.

 

Further, if we dig for motives (which it seems to be what A&E expects of the viewers when they aren't trying to figure out how one gets from Anna knowing Rumple to Belle inexplicably appearing behind Rumple when the tower only has one access point) I find it interesting that Rumple's plan seems to involve 4 people:

1) The Apprentice who has personally thwarted Rumple in the past and is a little judgy.

 

2) The Fairies  who Rumple hates because he blames Blue for giving Bae a magic bean which caused him to abandon Bae.

 

3) Emma who was involved with Bae's death. If Bae didn't need to get back to Emma/Henry so urgently, he wouldn't have cursed himself and he wouldn't have stolen the memory potion from Rumple to give to Hook. Rumple would have been better able to protect Bae if he knew he was inside him. Further, Emma separated Bae from Rumple so she kind of killed him. If Blue can be blamed, so can Emma.

 

4) Hook who Rumple hates because he blames Hook for stealing his wife (Rumple still bleats to others that his wife was lost to him and complains about Hook stealing his wife - I don't agree that is stealing, but Rumple does) who in turn is a proxy for his anger about what happened to Bae ("Sorry isn't enough. You let him go!"). And then Hook somehow went on to have a relationship with Bae and then Hook's involvement with Bae's death (see 3 above).

 

If we combine Rumple trend to lash out as opposed to empathize with his ability to find people to blame, I can believe he behaved the way that he did. I would like not to have to fanwank it, though. Plus, he goes from being a pretty empathetic fellow while under Zelena's control (not wanting to kill Roland and warning Emma/Hook that he's going to be made to hurt them if they don't get control of the dagger) to being a total mustache twirling villain. Without telling us it was a delayed PTSD by a non-empathetic fellow, it looks like he just became power-crazed when he found the hat. And maybe he is just power-crazed. Maybe he was possessed by Alien Vampire Bunnies. Who is to say? It's left as an exercise for the Viewers to figure it out.

 

He'd have been much more straightforward about it, maybe even a tiny bit apologetic, like "I know we agreed to put aside our differences, but you see, I can't let anyone use that dagger to control me again, and your heart is necessary for that. Ironic, isn't it? Who would have ever thought I'd need you so much, after all these years."

 

That would have been deliciously creepy. 

 

If he was that traumatized by having been controlled and he turned right around and did the same thing to someone else, with much sadistic glee, he loses any sympathy I might have had.

 

Yes, he's definitely lost my sympathy.

[Faemonic]

 I'd think that if he were really reacting to the trauma he wouldn't have been so eager to inflict the same thing on someone else (...) He'd have been much more straightforward about it, maybe even a tiny bit apologetic, like "I know we agreed to put aside our differences, but you see, I can't let anyone use that dagger to control me again, and your heart is necessary for that. Ironic, isn't it? Who would have ever thought I'd need you so much, after all these years."

"Don't be afraid...you should be flattered..."

"Crocodile, your father's influence is showing."

 

(Seriously though, that last line of yours would have been eerie awesome.)

[Shanna Marie]

If we combine Rumple trend to lash out as opposed to empathize with his ability to find people to blame, I can believe he behaved the way that he did.

Yeah, I guess it's totally in character for him as a selfish bastard incapable of empathy, since once he got power he turned around and bullied other people, and not just in direct retribution to the people who'd bullied him. But if he'd shown a shred of empathy, it would have gone a long way toward demonstrating that this whole scheme to free himself from the dagger really was him acting out of PTSD from being under Zelena's control rather than yet another attempt to have all the power -- especially since we were shown that he was after the hat to free himself from the dagger long before anyone but him had ever used the dagger to control him.

 

To make the PTSD plot work, I think we would have had to see that him giving the dagger to Belle was sincerely meant at that time, and then he got twitchy about it and was uncomfortable with it so he made the desperation move of switching the dagger just to have it back in his control. That would have meant giving up the dagger switch surprise when he killed Zelena, but was that really that big a surprise? And then he could have had the kind of scene I wrote above with Hook, where it was clear that it wasn't personal. When he was under Zelena's control and tormenting Hook, he seemed apologetic rather than gleeful about it, so that attitude of "sorry, but I need your heart to do this, and I have to do this" would have been better at showing Rumple wasn't just being power hungry. But with him having been deceptive all along, showing no signs of conflict aside from that silly graveside scene, gleefully crowing over Milah's death, and then going all "dance, monkey!" with Hook removed any sympathy there might have been for him.

[daxx]

The comment about Milah and that he will get over Emma eventually was just plain cruel and not necessary if he just wanted to be away from the dagger.  If he is a selfish bastard then that explains those comments and the one about Hook being his puppet.

[YaddaYadda]

I wanted to reach in my TV and slap  the smug off him.  I get hating Hook, but bringing Milah up was cruel and then telling him he needed Ms. Swan and surely Hook could understand that...absolutely no words. 

 

Rumple needs to leave both Milah and Emma the hell alone.

[Gold]

 

If anything, Regina and Rumple's unlimited powers are dooming the show.

I disagree. Regina, in my opinion, does not posses unlimited powers. Her limits are shown many ways, but she seems to prey on the weak. Regina, after Mary Margaret killed Cora, was scared away by Rumple. Later, during the Spell of Shatters Sight, she was easily pushed aside by Emma Swan. Rumple, while very powerful, will always be vulnerable in the end due to his weakness of the dagger. This was shown at the end of the first half of Season 4. The real problem with Rumple is his persistence. Rumple has been saved from death once, revived once and had his magic taken away countless times, and yet he continues to come back. For this reason, Rumple is ruining the show. Even when he has no magic, no dagger, his old limp back and no help, Rumple begins his next plan. 

 

I found it so unsatisfying that even without his powers, he managed to get back on his feet in just 6 weeks, and already onto his next plan of magical conquest.

 

This is exactly what I am saying. The only way for Rumple to ever back off in the show is for him to die.

 

[Camera One]

Regina, in my opinion, does not posses unlimited powers. Her limits are shown many ways, but she seems to prey on the weak. Regina, after Mary Margaret killed Cora, was scared away by Rumple. Later, during the Spell of Shatters Sight, she was easily pushed aside by Emma Swan.

 

Ever since Regina became half a hero, her magic has indeed been limited (from S3 onwards).  However, in the flashbacks to her Evil Queen days, she seems to be able to do almost anything she wanted with magic, her powers only surpassed by Rumple.  Back then, I did worry that she would become too powerful.  

 

The problem all along has been imbalance between the abilities of Regina/Rumple/megavillains and everyone else.  This forces Emma, Snow, etc. to constantly ask for help from Regina or to make a deal with the devil which is sometimes Rumple.  Even in 4A, the full-out heroes needed Regina to make a locator spell.  And of course 3B culminated in Regina and only Regina saving the day with her instantaneous mastery of White Magic along with her usual abilities.  

 

But as mentioned, in the last season and half, Regina is no longer invincible, which is a good thing.  Instead, the over-poweredness has transferred over to the new evil of the new megavillains.  Peter Pan was hardly touchable until Pandora's Box, and then he was untouchable until Rumple stabbed him.  Zelena was even stronger and nothing could stop her until her last episode.  Ditto for Cora.  The Snow Queen at least could be held back with the powers of Regina, Emma and Elsa combined, though certainly not when her ribbons were in place.  The "good guys" had no chance until the deus ex machina message in a bottle finally washed up.

[The Cake is a Pie]

I found it so unsatisfying that even without his powers, he managed to get back on his feet in just 6 weeks, and already onto his next plan of magical conquest.

Yes to this. It would have been more fitting for Rumple to have been cowering somewhere (possibly Neal's old apartment, which apparently is still there and still has all of Neal's stuff), until Ursula comes to find him to take their happy endings. If he can be fine in just 6 weeks with no magic, then what was the point of not going to The Land Without Magic with Bae in the first place. He apparently had nothing to be afraid of.

ETA: on the topic of Emma possibly being overpowered -- if so, good. So far the magic scales have been overwhelmingly tipped in favor of the villains. It's only fair if there could be at least ONE person on the heroes side who can wield an equal amount of magic. There is really NO ONE ELSE on the side of good with powerful magic, as the fairies don't have their magic dust and are currently hatted anyway. Anything to keep them from having to turn to REGINA for "good" magic.

Edited January 3, 2015 by The Cake is a Pie

[KAOS Agent]

I'm not sure I agree that they've reduced Regina's powers. They've just made the big bad even more powerful. And I'm not sure that Regina was portrayed as all that powerful in the first place. In the Enchanted Forest, it seems like Regina never matched up against anyone magical, so her reign of terror was pretty much unopposed. She had one magic fight with Maleficent, but it seemed like they were friends (or frenemies) prior to that and Rumpel needed Regina, so he never went after her. Regina thinks she's all that, but until Season 3, I don't think she ever met someone who could challenge her outside of her mentor.

 

Of course, now she has the whitest of white magic and was shown to have healing powers in 4A (something she didn't have in 2A), so it's either yet another continuity failing on the writers' part or she's still learning and strengthening her powers. And now they have three villains plus the Dark One, so they can say that it's not unreasonable for Regina to be unable to take on all of them by herself even as powerful as she is. Then again, she'll probably pull out platinum magic -- magic so powerful that no one's ever seen it wielded before and can only be used by someone who feels from her soul -- And she'll once again save the day by taking out the devil, a sea goddess and two other powerful magic users all by herself.

Edited January 3, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

There doesn't seem to be too many magical users in the Enchanted Forest.  If there had been, you'd expect other opportunistic baddies to pop up from within Storybrooke.  But apparently, even when Regina and all the leaders were absent in Neverland, it was oh so peaceful.  

[KingOfHearts]

Emma is powerful yes, but it's offset by the fact she still doesn't know how to control them terribly well. Her magic comes and goes in spurts. She can't just poof somewhere on a whim. Her power often conducts through her loved ones' need of rescue. Until she can learn how to properly wield it, it's sporadic at best.

With Regina I think it was her magic that made her scary and feared by her "normal" subjects. Like others have said, she ran marginally unopposed. But if you list her with Rumple, Zelena, Cora and Pan, she's dead last at the bottom. With the Dark One gone I believe she's the most potent and skilled magic user.

Edited January 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

I always got the impression that Emma could actually become more powerful than Rumple and that her hesitation to use her powers is what hinders her at the end of the day. Regina was going on and on about all the raw power she possessed anf how she didn't care about it. Emma's magic is powered by love and I mean we saw what she was able to do when Hook and then David were in danger.

Emma's powers were enough for Rumple to cut himself loose from the dagger, which really begs the question regarding her powers. He needed a whole bunch of fairies to achieve what he could've done with just one person. I've always felt that the final and ultimate battle of good vs evil would be an Emma vs Rumple showdown for the series finale.

Also, speaking of fairies...didn't Rumple sort of know Blue in his pre-Dark One days? Didn't those two have knowledge of each other or am I making this up?

[Gold]

1) I won't quote KAOS' whole post, but I pretty much agree with everything there.

 

2) Now, I still think that Emma is too powerful because even though she can not call on her powers randomly, they come when she needs them, and isn't that all that matters? Of course, we have seen her easily subdued by The Dark One, which is yet another problem. Yet, we know within our hearts, that if Belle hadn't shown up, Emma would have somehow broken free and used some kind of light magic to solve the problem.

 

3) What they did with Rumple was a big mistake. Any of the possible outcomes would have been problematic. They shouldn't have even had him do this. If Rumple had escaped, he would have been unstoppable and the show would have been either ruined, or they would have pulled a deus ex machina and somehow killed him. Instead, however, they took the less direct route to ruining the show and he crawled away to his next plan of magical conquest. Neither the former nor the latter are good. Rumple shouldn't have done this in the first place. But, since they decided to, Rumple should have died. Belle, who has been lied to for so many years should have killed Rumple. I know it sounds crazy, but this is the corner the show backed itself into. I don't want to watch season after season of rumple failing and then crawling around until he comes back for more power again. This has happened already, and I'm getting tired of it: The magic candle; Neal reviving Rumple. A good show knows when it's time for the characters to go, and Rumple's personality is that such that: (And I quote myself here)

 

The only way for Rumple to ever back off in the show is for him to die.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Gold

[ShadowFacts]

I would have been interested in seeing what Rumple did in six weeks in New York.  Without magic but with cunning and animus motivating him, I wanted to see him tangle with street people or swindle business people, or something.  I'm sick and tired of him returning to villainy in small-town Maine.  Boring.  Repetitive. 

 

Many of us operate under the assumption that Rumple will be a villain until the end of the series, and he is probably the strongest actor, but it is certainly not unheard of to kill off a main character.  Maybe Robert wants out for whatever reason, and A&E love big twists.  Maybe as a parting gift, he leaves some big magical mess for our heroes (and new megastar hero Regina) to untangle to save the world.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm tired of them having to save the world.  I think what I appreciated the most about last year's two hour finale is that the only time magic was needed was when they had to re-open the time portal, but everything else, Emma and Hook had to rely on each other and their smarts/wits.  If Rumple hadn't given then that make over, they would probably have figured something else out and he did nothing else magical outside of that.  For me, it was sort of the closest thing we had to S1 (but that is obviously open to debate).

 

Magic is like a band-aid solution to everything. Bad/Dark magic comes in, messes up everyone's lives, light magic fixes it or sort of fixes it, but new bad person comes or is biding their time to take down these folks and wash, rinse, repeat.

 

And now we're going to have 4 of them running around town.  

[ShadowFacts]

 

Magic is like a band-aid solution to everything. Bad/Dark magic comes in, messes up everyone's lives, light magic fixes it or sort of fixes it, but new bad person comes or is biding their time to take down these folks and wash, rinse, repeat.

 

Precisely.  It is unimaginative and super predictable.  That's why I wanted to see Rumple vs. Real World, NYC version.  And why ultimately magic messes up the show too much.  Villains have it and misuse it, heroes and quasi-heroes want it or have it and don't know how to control it, the masses get to suffer the consequences and be cardboard background figures.  I'm over it already.  I want to see them use their wits.

[Camera One]

That's why I wanted to see Rumple vs. Real World, NYC version.

 

I was looking forward to that with the Snow Queen, but they had one short scene with her and the fortune teller and by the next flashback clip, she had already completely settled in and adapted.  

 

I'm assuming if they do go back to those 6 weeks, they will quickly jump to Rumple finding some magical object he stashed in NYC.  Or they might retcon and say Rumple visited Ursula back in "Manhattan".

Edited January 3, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Neal's apartment was probably still available to him. In show time, Emma broke in there only a couple of weeks ago and it was still Neal's. As his next of kin, Rumpel would even be legal if he stayed there.

[Rumsy4]

Neal's apartment was probably still available to him. In show time, Emma broke in there only a couple of weeks ago and it was still Neal's. As his next of kin, Rumpel would even be legal if he stayed there.

He probably did go to Neal's apartment, but since both Rumple and Neal have/had a false identities, I doubt he can do anything legally. Did Rumple even have his wallet in him when Belle kicked him out of the town? I doubt it.

[Camera One]

He would still need to break in to the building.  Does Rumple have the street-smarts to realize it's all about the tumblers?  I'm assuming he had to beg for money since he left with nothing, unless he had everything stashed in a magical expandable bag inside his coat.  

Edited January 4, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I think he sold his cuff links actually.  I think what sort of bugs me with seeing Rumple 6 weeks after he was banished is that he has learned diddly squat about anything and is already getting ready to go back to SB and reclaim whatever...

[Camera One]

Good thing he dropped in on Regina and found out the brilliant plan to find the Author.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think he sold his cuff links actually.  I think what sort of bugs me with seeing Rumple 6 weeks after he was banished is that he has learned diddly squat about anything and is already getting ready to go back to SB and reclaim whatever...

I believe if Rumple's motives were simply "human" as A&E say, he would have hit rock and bottom and realized he was wrong. But nope - it's same old Rumple gathering villains for revenge.

 

Final season: Rumple resurrects every single villain there ever was.

Edited January 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

Good thing he dropped in on Regina and found out the brilliant plan to find the Author.

I liked that scene, though, because...if I ignore his attempt to kidnap Henry and let Regina die under Shattered Sight...it was believably motivated by Rumple's character. (Unlike his sudden and inexplicable attachment to Henry Jr.) This is the mentor who laid a rose on Cora's coffin and tried to give The Fairytale Evil Queen a reality check, whose death rendered Regina catatonic for several lines, whose resurrection gave her such a grin...or close enough to him that I've seen all season.

 

Okay, it wasn't even close, but it was something that didn't reek of horrible contrivance even though that horrible contrivance might have been the main point of that scene, to contrive Rumple's Angels.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Faemonic

[Amerilla]

I'm assuming he had to beg for money since he left with nothing, unless he had everything stashed in a magical expandable bag inside his coat.

 

 

My headcanon was that, since Gold was planning on taking Belle and Henry to NYC anyway, he'd probably already booked a place for them to stay and made sure he had access to plenty of money -  so as long as he could get himself to New York, he was probably fine.

 

But YaddaYadda is right - his cuff-links are conspicuously absent and he does not look like he's been enjoying the spa menu at some upscale Manhattan hotel.

 

I would have been interested in seeing what Rumple did in six weeks in New York.  Without magic but with cunning and animus motivating him, I wanted to see him tangle with street people or swindle business people, or something.  I'm sick and tired of him returning to villainy in small-town Maine.  Boring.  Repetitive.

 

ITA. But even if they had been willing to slow their freight-train-like approach to storytelling to follow a logical and potentially entertaining path like that, I suspect the writers would argue they already did that when they sent Gold to Manhattan the first time - "Hey, we let him get cheesed off at the TSA and scared on the plane! What more do you want! Nobody wants to see Gold sitting around eating vending-machine Cheetoes and binge-watching informercials! That's not DRAMA!"

 

Frankly, I doubt they would have even thrown a line about Hook having to eat bologna if "Sleepy Hollow" hadn't become popular in-between his first and second trips to the real world. Despite what they might say in interviews, A&E couldn't care less about exploring the "fairytale characters in the real world." 

[orza]

Why wouldn't Rumple have his wallet with him? He was planning to leave town that night with Belle and Henry. He would have needed credit cards and cash to do that. We know Rumple's credit cards work in the real world because he paid for the airline tickets and other expenses when they went to New York in season 2. Rumple seems like the kind of guy who always has his wallet with him to be prepared for every financial eventuality.

 

I assumed that Rumple's disheveled appearance after 6 weeks in New York was a visual indicator of his depressed state of mind. Other depressed people mope around the house in old sweats, Rumple's version of letting himself go is not bothering with the cuff links and tie. After all, this is the guy whose idea of dressing down is to remove his suit jacket and vest and who gets up in the morning and puts on a dress shirt and tie to putter around in the basement.

He would still need to break in to the building.  Does Rumple have the street-smarts to realize it's all about the tumblers?  I'm assuming he had to beg for money since he left with nothing, unless he had everything stashed in a magical expandable bag inside his coat.

We already saw in Manhattan that Rumple had no problem getting into Neal's apartment. He got past the security door in the lobby by pressing all the buttons until someone buzzed him in then picked the lock to Neal's door. Rumple probably put himself on a bus to NYC, went straight to Neal's place and has been living there ever since.

Edited January 4, 2015 by orzamonium

[KingOfHearts]

Emotionally though, seeing Rumple strutting around with his cane after his big "I'm afraid" ordeal felt off. He couldn't even handle the airport bathroom before. Even with money and provisions, I'm still side-eyeing it.

Edited January 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

From the Spoiler thread, no spoilers:

 

Rumple should be kept as the main villain until either he loses his powers for good or just plain dies.

 

Rumple is the only villain who is really intimidating at this point because A) we don't know when and if he'll die, B) he's got a solid reputation for prolific murders, C) he's got the biggest pool of resources for manipulation, D) he's the freaking Dark One, and E) he's not some softy like Ingrid who just wants a "loving family". When Post-S1 Regina holds someone to a wall and interrogates them, it's borderline cartoony. When Rumple chains Hook to a fence and takes his heart, it's cringingly chilling. He's just a much scarier and better Big Bad than most on the show, both in the writing and the acting.

Edited January 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[legaleagle53]

To say nothing of the fact that he's unpredictable. It's also what made Ingrid so effective as a villain; even though you knew what her end game was, you still had no idea what she was going to do or how she was going to go about achieving her goal of just having Emma and Elsa to herself as her replacement "sisters."  Zelena, by way of contrast, was utterly predictable; she always telegraphed exactly what she was going to do and how and when she was going to do it, as did Regina and Pan.  But it's really impossible to predict what Rumpel's going to do next or how he's going to react in a situation, because he's a master at playing it close to the vest.  It's only when he's literally backed into a corner (as he was by Belle at the town line) that we see who and what he really is.

[RadioGirl27]

 

Rumple should be kept as the main villain until either he loses his powers for good or just plain dies.

Hell, yeah. But it' not going to happen. The show lost that train the day A&E decided to make him the Beast from Beauty and the Beast.

[The Cake is a Pie]

Ingrid was also effective because she has been the only one so far who seemed to be able to threaten Rumple and had the power to back it up. Right now there is no one to reasonably oppose him without holding the dagger, especially if he can just freeze Emma with a wave of his hand. That's one of the reasons why I don't object to increasing Emma's powers. I want her to have equal power to his. If they are not going to either strip him of his powers and/or kill him outright, then there has to be a balancing force in the town to keep him in check.

 

I hope they explore the possibility of someone killing him with the dagger and taking over the Dark One powers. Perhaps at the end of the very last season. Hey, Henry, wanna be in the book?

Edited January 9, 2015 by The Cake is a Pie